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Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
265
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Posted - 2015.07.29 00:06:33 -
[91] - Quote
I can dig it. Also make data sites not suck so hard.
Oderint Dum Metuant
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Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2992
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Posted - 2015.07.29 01:01:55 -
[92] - Quote
Aralieus wrote:Also make data sites not suck so hard. Please do tell how?
Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
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Luscius Uta
153
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Posted - 2015.07.29 05:42:50 -
[93] - Quote
Supporting this idea, I have both skills at V and it was annoying to basically train the same thing twice. Sadly, I don't remember if CCP ever merged skills (on the contrary, they are more likely to separate them - Destroyers, Battlecruiser, Scout drones) so I don't have any hopes. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1463
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Posted - 2015.07.29 08:45:01 -
[94] - Quote
Garai Nolen wrote:...
I guess my point was simply that fitting for these just isn't a problem for explo cruisers in general. I imagine the Limited Sleeper Cache makes frigate fitting somewhat interesting, the same way trying to fit a covops frig for ghost sites can be pretty tight. So yeah I accept that for a few situations when you are forced into frigates and sites have interesting/unique mechanics, there can be some non-trivial fitting decisions. Except for ghost sites the frigate tradeoffs would exist even post merge, since you can already use either analyzer type. Generally I don't think those cases are providing sufficient gameplay value to justify not merging these skills.
In hisec it's not such an issue as you can drop the depot for swapping out (though I don't, I'm happy with the fits I have) but in lo and null sec this becomes much more of an issue, especially since dropping a depot is a red flag for scanning down in those areas.
My point is that rather than removing skills and choices the gameplay should be enhanced to make exploration richer and give more meaning to having the two skills. As for training both skills to V right now trust me, having done so gives me a huge advantage ion the sleeper caches over someone who hasn't. You would be very lucky to clear a standard site on tech I analyzers I think.
My suggestion for an improved explo experience would be that hacking sites contain both data and relic cans that contain loot, but also contain data cans that control the environment in the same way that the sleeper caches use them. Successful hack opens up new areas, drags in more cans, switches of/on damaging effects etc. Also there should be escalations but you need to successfully hack every can in the site to trigger them.
Basically enrich the gameplay rather than dilute the existing game.
I 100% agree with those who have suggested that faction items be built from BPC's and loot from these sites too, this would improve the market, exploration and industry all in one hit. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1423
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Posted - 2015.07.29 10:06:04 -
[95] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Aralieus wrote:Also make data sites not suck so hard. Please do tell how?
Make data sites drop the raw materials we use to make implants. Then have the LP stores and loot drops stop providing complete implants - but rather only sell the BPC for the implants.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1463
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Posted - 2015.07.29 10:41:27 -
[96] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Aralieus wrote:Also make data sites not suck so hard. Please do tell how? Make data sites drop the raw materials we use to make implants. Then have the LP stores and loot drops stop providing complete implants - but rather only sell the BPC for the implants.
Currently implant parts come from PI so I'd keep it that way for those, I'd have the data sites drop parts for Faction modules instead, with relic sites providing other parts and BPC's. Make the data sites drop the less rare items and the BPC's (they are data after all) and the relic sites drop the more rare items and maybe BPC's too to balance the sites. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1463
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Posted - 2015.07.29 11:00:05 -
[97] - Quote
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote: instead of merging these into one, they should be made more distinct from each other. this gets my vote THIS! I want to see an archaeology minigame like digging trenches!
I'll need a faction beard and pipe to improve my success chances. |
Dino Zavr
Shadow Owls
48
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Posted - 2015.07.29 11:49:23 -
[98] - Quote
Hi
Scripting the unified analayzer for different can types is a very good idea, moreover, this may lead to further diversification like manufacturing cans (bpcs), science cans (datacores), materials.. etc implement the system like of those little pesky catch-me-if-u-can flying away containers The suggestion to make better sites harder to scan is, actually, a proper idea. When I arrive at highsec relic site i OFTEN discover there already are let's say Cheetah and Imicus racing to reach the last can first. On the other side, I still had not faced huge competiton while clearing Standard Sleeper Cache alone in my Startious. Why, you might ask? It takes some skills to scan down Sleeper cahces and complaints "why the heck i gain only 84% at a data site?" are very much common in the Russian help channel where I hangout most of my ingame time. Contemporary situation with exploration is that the most of highsec signatures are accessible with astero frigate and all skills at 2 which takes about one day training, sure this is great for New Players Experience, but on the other hand it actually does not provoke newbies investing their time to train skills up to level 5 and to implement some thinking to fit their exploration ships. Introduction of Sleepers cache sites was a step in the prpoer direction. Imho the entire exploration now requires some "rebalancing"(tm) signatures strenths and sites complexity to become something motivating to reward good skills and well-tuned fits, well, like Sleeper cahes. The idea of escalating exploration sites into expeditions is also great. I'd also like the entire site to despawn in 10..15 minutes after first warp-in.
Tnanks |
Spugg Galdon
Nisroc Angels
733
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Posted - 2015.07.29 12:04:30 -
[99] - Quote
Chance Ravinne wrote:All right let's face it: There are no meaningful differences between these skills. They take a significant time for new players to train, but don't offer significantly different risks or benefits, except that data loot is mostly garbage.
Yet die hard explorers feel compelled to carry and or fit both modules around, even though they result in identical minigames and mechanics.
Hell, some newer exploration sites, like Ghost Sites, don't even care which module you use!
So let's end the charade. Merge both skills into Hacking, make all current data and relic sites "hacking" sites and just make things simpler and less arbitrarily silly.
This means less arbitrary training time, fewer wasted ship midslots, and no need to explain why "archeology" is a computer hacking game. The side bonus is hacking "data" sites wont be as bad since the training and fitting requirements being halved adds some value to your day.
Give people Hacking to whichever level of the two existing skills is higher, and give them the lower skill's SP as freely distributable bonus SP. Whaddya think?
Hey Chance,
I've been thinking about your initial post into the thread and the way that it is put forward is bothering me.
This post is simply lobbying for support of what appears to be your idea or at least an idea put forward to you by someone close to you. Although, generally speaking, this isn't actually an issue, the problem comes when we look at human behavior. The fact that you are a member of the CSM means that when you speak, people are going to listen. They will also probably say things and act differently simply because you are a CSM member (although, you were popular and semi famous in EvE before you were elected) to potentially fall in your favour.
I think you really should have presented this issue in a far more open and unbiased format. You really shouldn't have made a suggestion that has such a binary answer. This should have been put forward in a far more structured fashion that spoke from both sides of the (percieved) issue and probably spoke about the hacking profession as a general whole.
I do know that you mean well but I do think people have "odd" behavior on these forums when it comes to replying to or getting a reply from a "Dev"/"CSM"/"GM" ticker. |
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
197
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Posted - 2015.07.29 14:39:28 -
[100] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:Chance Ravinne wrote:All right let's face it: There are no meaningful differences between these skills. They take a significant time for new players to train, but don't offer significantly different risks or benefits, except that data loot is mostly garbage.
Yet die hard explorers feel compelled to carry and or fit both modules around, even though they result in identical minigames and mechanics.
Hell, some newer exploration sites, like Ghost Sites, don't even care which module you use!
So let's end the charade. Merge both skills into Hacking, make all current data and relic sites "hacking" sites and just make things simpler and less arbitrarily silly.
This means less arbitrary training time, fewer wasted ship midslots, and no need to explain why "archeology" is a computer hacking game. The side bonus is hacking "data" sites wont be as bad since the training and fitting requirements being halved adds some value to your day.
Give people Hacking to whichever level of the two existing skills is higher, and give them the lower skill's SP as freely distributable bonus SP. Whaddya think? Hey Chance, I've been thinking about your initial post into the thread and the way that it is put forward is bothering me. This post is simply lobbying for support of what appears to be your idea or at least an idea put forward to you by someone close to you. Although, generally speaking, this isn't actually an issue, the problem comes when we look at human behavior. The fact that you are a member of the CSM means that when you speak, people are going to listen. They will also probably say things and act differently simply because you are a CSM member (although, you were popular and semi famous in EvE before you were elected) to potentially fall in your favour. I think you really should have presented this issue in a far more open and unbiased format. You really shouldn't have made a suggestion that has such a binary answer. This should have been put forward in a far more structured fashion that spoke from both sides of the (percieved) issue and probably spoke about the hacking profession as a general whole. I do know that you mean well but I do think people have "odd" behavior on these forums when it comes to replying to or getting a reply from a "Dev"/"CSM"/"GM" ticker.
I hope people listen. and that instead of trying and failing to make data and relic different they just combine them. CCP has a track record of not updating things they put into place even if broken or useless so giving them just 1 system to monitor and update vs having 2 the first option is the right way to go. Look at data now currently its a separate system and it is worthless outside of very specific sites that I'm not even sure can be run solo without changing fits (I always change fits or run alts have't tried solo with no depot)
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
59
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Posted - 2015.07.29 14:43:05 -
[101] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:I think you really should have presented this issue in a far more open and unbiased format. You really shouldn't have made a suggestion that has such a binary answer.
Chance Ravinne wrote:BRB resigning from CSM because I have a subjective opinion on what constitutes fun. I'll let Xenuria know where my parking spot was. I really have to remember to put this quote somewhere more readily available.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1463
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Posted - 2015.07.29 16:01:03 -
[102] - Quote
Lady Rift wrote:...Look at data now currently its a separate system and it is worthless outside of very specific sites that I'm not even sure can be run solo without changing fits (I always change fits or run alts have't tried solo with no depot)
They can very much be run solo with the skills fully trained up and actually learning how to defeat the defenses. All explo should move in this direction rather than asking for it to be degraded further. |
AutoPuppet Tong
Alliance of Free Stars
0
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Posted - 2015.07.29 17:45:28 -
[103] - Quote
I fully support OP's original idea. Data sites aren't worth the opportunity costs anyway, so the only effect is I get 768k unallocated sp, which is great! |
Morihei Akachi
Nishida Corporation
178
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Posted - 2015.07.29 18:15:39 -
[104] - Quote
How is OPGÇÖs suggestion different, in principle, from calling for a merger of all the minerals into one? Minerals can only be used for one thingGÇöbuilding thingsGÇöso it's pointless, on the logic of the original post, to have eight of them. Better yet, combine all the ores into one as well. Then no one would need to waste time on training different skills for refining them, or ISK on different mining crystals. These things are just as much -+needless complications-½ as the fact that Archaeology and Hacking are two different skills, or that the activities require two different modules.
Eve has traditionally entailed a great deal of delayed satisfaction: one waits longer here than in some other MMOs in order to do the things one wants to do. The theory has been that this enhances the sense of achievement when those things finally become possible. I would be sorry to see the game give this up. OPGÇÖs suggestion, in its original form, seems to me to want to go in exactly that direction.
I do, however, support the suggestions for making Archaeology and Hacking more distinct; I can think of no good reason why these activities should be identical.
"Enduring", "restrained" and "ample" as designations for starship components are foreign to the genre of high-tech science fiction and donGÇÖt belong in Eve Online.
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M1k3y Koontz
Respawn Disabled Initiative Mercenaries
766
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Posted - 2015.07.29 19:10:49 -
[105] - Quote
Data sites need help, and merging them with relics is the most reasonable answer. Do we really want CCP trying to add a new exploration mechanic again? Remember the spew containers?
How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
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M1k3y Koontz
Respawn Disabled Initiative Mercenaries
766
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Posted - 2015.07.29 19:13:20 -
[106] - Quote
Morihei Akachi wrote:How is OPGÇÖs suggestion different, in principle, from calling for a merger of all the minerals into one? Minerals can only be used for one thingGÇöbuilding thingsGÇöso it's pointless, on the logic of the original post, to have eight of them. Better yet, combine all the ores into one as well. Then no one would need to waste time on training different skills for refining them, or ISK on different mining crystals. These things are just as much -+needless complications-½ as the fact that Archaeology and Hacking are two different skills, or that the activities require two different modules.
Eve has traditionally entailed a great deal of delayed satisfaction: one waits longer here than in some other MMOs in order to do the things one wants to do. The theory has been that this enhances the sense of achievement when those things finally become possible. I would be sorry to see the game give this up. OPGÇÖs suggestion, in its original form, seems to me to want to go in exactly that direction.
I do, however, support the suggestions for making Archaeology and Hacking more distinct; I can think of no good reason why these activities should be identical.
Strawman arguement, OP isnt trying to homogonize loot, but instead get rid of an activity nobody participates in.
How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
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Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2992
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Posted - 2015.07.29 19:18:19 -
[107] - Quote
The OP is not looking at the long term repercussions of doing this.
Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
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Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
1721
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Posted - 2015.07.29 19:23:25 -
[108] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:Strawman arguement, OP isnt trying to homogonize loot, but instead get rid of an activity nobody participates in. Excuse me? What activity is it "nobody participates in"?
M1k3y Koontz wrote:Data sites need help, and merging them with relics is the most reasonable answer. Do we really want CCP trying to add a new exploration mechanic again? Remember the spew containers? I liked the spew containers. It actually made you vulnerable while you were trying to catch the most valuable cans. Now it's again just opening the container, grabbing the stuff and moving on to the next can, all in a range from the container where you can just cloak if someone decloaks next to you.
You better watch your own strawmen arguments.
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
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Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
199
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Posted - 2015.07.29 20:55:16 -
[109] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Lady Rift wrote:...Look at data now currently its a separate system and it is worthless outside of very specific sites that I'm not even sure can be run solo without changing fits (I always change fits or run alts have't tried solo with no depot)
They can very much be run solo with the skills fully trained up and actually learning how to defeat the defenses. All explo should move in this direction rather than asking for it to be degraded further.
can it be done without changing fits in the field? |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2992
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Posted - 2015.07.29 21:07:54 -
[110] - Quote
Lady Rift wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Lady Rift wrote:...Look at data now currently its a separate system and it is worthless outside of very specific sites that I'm not even sure can be run solo without changing fits (I always change fits or run alts have't tried solo with no depot)
They can very much be run solo with the skills fully trained up and actually learning how to defeat the defenses. All explo should move in this direction rather than asking for it to be degraded further. can it be done without changing fits in the field? If you are talking sleeper cache sites I do them all the time with one ship and no refits.
Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1261
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Posted - 2015.07.29 21:24:39 -
[111] - Quote
Chance Ravinne wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Daya sites being generally poor does not mean that CCP needs to drop data hacking. It means they need to balance the sites properly. The sleeper caches are the best exploration change recentlyand that requires excellent hacking skills of both flavours to run effectively. Exploration should be extended along these lines, not cut down and simplified. All right, but in what meaningful way are using data and relic analyzers in these sites different? If they were just called Data Analyzer Alpha and Data Analyzer Beta would it be any worse?
The meaningful way they are different is that you have to fill a second slot if you want to be able to do both without refitting. You have to choose between tank/tackle/data/relic. You have to make choices. Choices are what make this game great.
Here's an example:
I was gassing in a wh last night. A co-worker shows up at my door. Turns out I offered him my blueberry patch so that he and his son could pick some. I forgot until the doorbell rang. So I had a choice. Get everything safe and go see to the blueberries or let the prospects stay at it. I chose to take the risk. I left 3 characters in different sitest and went out to pick some blueberries. I made a choice. For one of my alts it was a bad choice. Just as I got back to the computer SSC dropped a small force on one of my characters. I tried to get the little ship out, but it wasn't to be so. Wonked and podded. In route back to the wh. sigh.
Another example:
SSC comes into our wh and sees 3 ships gassing (well 2,the other was gassing in the next wh). They have to choose one to start the blood bath with. I'm not sure why they picked the noobiest one. First come - first server, least likely to get away - only they know. Anyways, they made a choice. Based on the timing they were going to get one. Had they picked one of the other characters they would have hit the imlant jackpot. Decent hardwires in one and my first set of high grades ever PLUS a decent set of hardwires in the other.
We both had choices and we both chose poorly. That's how the night went. All because of choices. I'm against taking choices out of the game. If the sites are too much the same, then change one or both. Don't smoosh them together into one.
-1. Your idea lacks creativity, reduces pilot choices and removes something from the game. You should not be re-elected to CSM. We need clear thinkers that add to the game. Not dull boys that take away. (now that I re read it - I'd like to add a hearty raspberry sound to the -1) |
Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
173
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Posted - 2015.07.29 22:14:17 -
[112] - Quote
Once upon a time the sites were very different. In fact you needed different probes to hunt them down. The mechanic of opening the target was the same.
Over time probing was streamlined with the advent of WHs. It was an overall improvement to game play.
With Odyssey came additional probe changes for scanning that further streamlined the scanning activity. This update also brought the mini game.
- Scanning became very simple. Everyone could find near everything with minimal scan skills and enough time. Practice was all that was required.
- The mini game was generally regarded as being better than just click/wait/receive bacon. Some people hated it because of the distraction away form D Scan and the fact the hacking window was huge and could not be moved. Others liked the new challenge.
- The loot spew was despised by most and liked by few. It was eventually removed.
One thing in common with these events was the barrier to entry or hacking exploration was continuously reduced. There was a time that scanning required planning and lot of practice to become competent. Anoms could only be discovered by the ship scanner which only had a range of 4AU hence you had to want to discover anoms and travel from planet to planet ship scanning. Not everything was available as soon as you enter system.
Now a suggestion comes along to combine the hacking skills. This suggestion continues the trend to lower the barrier of entry. Everything listed above has devalued exploration. Dramatically. Of course it is possible to make a living exclusively on exploration (hacking not combat) but it is a ghost of its former self.
CCP has done some good things recently. They have added more hacking content. This is a good thing. However it could be better.
As mentioned several times in this thread, hacking needs to be iterated on. With Odyssey it was suggested by CCP that the hacking tools be an item to put into your cargo hold to be used else where. To have the tools as manufacture items that can be sold. It never came to be.
I only do combat exploration now. I recently gave up on the hacking sites. The rewards were butchered on the market with Odyssey (easy accessability) and the mini game became very easy and predicable with practice.
Chance, your observation of the hacking being basically the same is correct but merging them is the incorrect approach. To merge them is to take away an opportunity to breath life into exploration again. The "hacking" of both sites needs to be iterated on in two opposite directions. Data sites should be very modern and futuristic (and should include abandoned POSes). You are attempting to steal secrets etc.. Relic sites should be OLD, delicate and dirty.
Do not merge, iterate in opposite directions. Remember, we want new players but please remember that older players, old vets, would like something worthwhile.
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Arla Sarain
572
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Posted - 2015.07.30 22:33:56 -
[113] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:Strawman arguement, OP isnt trying to homogonize loot, but instead get rid of an activity nobody participates in. Excuse me? What activity is it "nobody participates in"? Hacking data sites.
As opposed to hacking relic sites. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2995
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Posted - 2015.07.30 22:39:54 -
[114] - Quote
Arla Sarain wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:Strawman arguement, OP isnt trying to homogonize loot, but instead get rid of an activity nobody participates in. Excuse me? What activity is it "nobody participates in"? Hacking data sites. As opposed to hacking relic sites. If nobody was hacking data sites they would be valuable.
Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
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Arla Sarain
572
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Posted - 2015.07.30 22:42:02 -
[115] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Arla Sarain wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:Strawman arguement, OP isnt trying to homogonize loot, but instead get rid of an activity nobody participates in. Excuse me? What activity is it "nobody participates in"? Hacking data sites. As opposed to hacking relic sites. If nobody was hacking data sites they would be valuable. Why, cos of supply and demand?
Not if other activities in the game provided the same items that hacking sites do.
Which is what happens. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2995
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Posted - 2015.07.30 23:02:07 -
[116] - Quote
Arla Sarain wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Arla Sarain wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:Strawman arguement, OP isnt trying to homogonize loot, but instead get rid of an activity nobody participates in. Excuse me? What activity is it "nobody participates in"? Hacking data sites. As opposed to hacking relic sites. If nobody was hacking data sites they would be valuable. Why, cos of supply and demand? Not if other activities in the game provided the same items that hacking sites do. Which is what happens. Excel for decryptors which only come from data sites and are required for invention.
Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
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Rayzilla Zaraki
Yin Jian Enterprises
299
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Posted - 2015.07.30 23:39:03 -
[117] - Quote
I dont get the data site hate in this thread. I have had extraordinary results from data sites.
Where I like to explore about one in ten sites gives an escalation. The last escalation I got had BPCs which netted me a little over three buhbillion ISK.
Both are valuable, but I still support the OP's proposal: merge the modules and skills into one. I'd also support giving the archeology sites a different mini game if they could come up with one that I cant find on Facebook.
Gate campers are just Carebears with anger issues.
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Dino Zavr
Shadow Owls
50
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Posted - 2015.07.31 09:32:07 -
[118] - Quote
Hi
Just to mention, that introduction of Exploration sites possible escalation (like expeditions) while the trigger is that all cans are opened by one player (or members of one fleet, in this case escalation if happens is granted to the one who has opened the last can) might positively affect the issue of long despawning of partially hacked sites. Please, CCP, make it happen!
Thanks |
Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
1730
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Posted - 2015.07.31 09:49:45 -
[119] - Quote
Arla Sarain wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:Strawman arguement, OP isnt trying to homogonize loot, but instead get rid of an activity nobody participates in. Excuse me? What activity is it "nobody participates in"? Hacking data sites. As opposed to hacking relic sites. Decryptors come only from Data sites. Components for the production of Cosmos and other items come only from Data sites. And as I mention that, I would like to suggest again to remove all the stupid High-tech garbage from the Data sites and in addition make the components (for instance these at the top) mandatory production materials for faction item and ship BPCs.
And on a personal note: I run almost every Data Site I can find in my area of space because they allow me to be independent from the decryptor market, as I can satisfy my entire decryptor needs with them.
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1471
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Posted - 2015.07.31 10:06:55 -
[120] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:... And on a personal note: I run almost every Data Site I can find in my area of space because they allow me to be independent from the decryptor market, as I can satisfy my entire decryptor needs with them.
They also frequently trigger another sig when cleared which can give you a nice headstart on it if it's a combat site. |
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