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davet517
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
111
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 11:50:48 -
[1] - Quote
This is hardly the first time this has been suggested. Hell, it's not even the first time it's been suggested by me (just not this year).
The basic problem with combat PvE in eve is that it's too different from PvP. It's a predictable, mindless grind where your ship is hilariously over-powered compared to the NPCs that you are fighting, so to make it interesting at all, you fight dozens of them.
Not only is this boring and predictable, it requires using ship doctrines that are very different from, and useless in, PvP. As a consequence, there are no interesting ratter vs. roamer fights. Roamer warps in, ratter tries to run, and he either gets caught, or not. What could have been an interesting fight is either a one-sided gank, or a miss.
So, here's what I'd propose:
Content Scaling: Fewer rats, but tougher, and that have more player-like behavior, for instance, have to point them, or they'll warp off if they're losing. Instead of having dozens of rats on the field, have one warp in as one is going down. Vary the rats that warp in to provide changing, challenging scenarios for the player. Have the kinds of ships that you face change depending on the ship that you brought, as opposed to a Sanctum always having the same thing. It should almost have the feel of a PvPer's dojo, where you are training for fights against players. Bounties of course would have to be higher per unit, to adjust for the smaller number of ships.
Get Ready to Rumble: Make combat anoms accessible through ded gates, and have those gates scale to whatever the player inside brought. If he's in a frig, you can only get a frig through, similar to the way FW sites work, only with more player choice. If a hostile player warps in, the rats warp off, leaving the players to fight. If a friendly player warps in, the content scales to match the new players on the field. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1415
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 11:54:20 -
[2] - Quote
It's too bad that they screwed up Burner missions so badly. This is what we should have had for Burner missions, instead we got stupidly powerful mindless NPCs, who are just as predictable and easy to kill (with the right setup) as regular NPC's.
Just curious though, how does the game tell whether a hostile player warped in or a friendly one? Standings?
What is to stop me from playing games with standings to fool the system?
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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davet517
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
111
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 11:58:25 -
[3] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote: What is to stop me from playing games with standings to fool the system?
I'd imagine it'd be based on the ratter's standings. Neutral or hostile to the ratter is considered "hostile" by the system.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1415
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Posted - 2015.07.28 12:04:32 -
[4] - Quote
davet517 wrote:FT Diomedes wrote: What is to stop me from playing games with standings to fool the system?
I'd imagine it'd be based on the ratter's standings. Neutral or hostile to the ratter is considered "hostile" by the system.
Okay, so, I am getting my ass handed to me by the rats, so I warp in my neutral alt and all the rats warp away immediately.
Or maybe I don't actually want to fight - I just want to troll the living hell out of the ratter. So I simply warp in to every complex he tries to run, causing all the rats to warp away, then immediately warp out.
Not saying it is a hopelessly bad idea, you just have to consider how Eve players will break it.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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davet517
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
111
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 12:11:47 -
[5] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:[ Okay, so, I am getting my ass handed to me by the rats, so I warp in my neutral alt and all the rats warp away immediately.
Or maybe I don't actually want to fight - I just want to troll the living hell out of the ratter. So I simply warp in to every complex he tries to run, causing all the rats to warp away, then immediately warp out.
Not saying it is a hopelessly bad idea, you just have to consider how Eve players will break it.
You're right. Eve players are often more interested in the grief than the fight.
As far as warping your neutral alt in to keep you from losing, you could, but if you do it often, it's going to wreck your isk/hr.
For the anom busting troll, maybe put your alt on the ded gate in a cloaky sabre, instead of in the anom with you? If the troll takes the ded gate, you should have a point. Tackle him.
No doubt it's just a rough idea that needs some polish. |
davet517
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
111
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 12:19:52 -
[6] - Quote
Now that I think about it, guess the rats wouldn't actually have to warp away. They could just disengage and burn away, and resume when the hostile was either gone or dead. |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
397
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 12:46:37 -
[7] - Quote
Essentially it is a hopeless idea. Not because it is bad, but because of the complexities of programming an AI that could do these types of things. To stay at a reasonable lever of complexity AND size for a game like EvE an AI will for the foreseeable future have to rely on a pre-programmed series of actions based on what the player is doing, the burner missions are a perfect example of this.
Besides who says that it would be good for the game to have all PvE content behave like real PvP? This whole notion centers on the failed idea that if players were exposed to a PvP like setting and had to fly PvP fit ships in their PvE activities they would transition from PvE to actual PvP activities. WHile this MAY lead to a few players making the transition that have not done so already it ignores a fundamental truth of human nature, there are those who will fight other people and those that will not and nothing you can do will ever change that fact.
CCP has done an excellent job of balancing the games activities to attract and hold a wide range of players and play styles, that helps to attract and hold far more players than it would if you changed all the PvE activities.
After all that I have no problems with CCP adding a series of optional more PvP like missions at all levels into the game. pehaps changes to the burner missions would be a good place to start. |
davet517
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
111
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 13:06:23 -
[8] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:Essentially it is a hopeless idea.
Of course.
Quote: Not because it is bad, but because of the complexities of programming an AI that could do these types of things. To stay at a reasonable lever of complexity AND size for a game like EvE an AI will for the foreseeable future have to rely on a pre-programmed series of actions based on what the player is doing, the burner missions are a perfect example of this.
I doubt that. The AI that would simulate how a player flys a tackler, or a logi, or a DPS ship, whether its a kiter or a brawler, really isn't all that complex, when you think about it. You could describe the behavior in a fairly small rule-set. Scaling shouldn't be much of an issue if we're not talking about infinately scaleable content (like missions) but about content that doesn't scale beyond a certain point on a single node (like anoms). If CCP has a hard time figuring it out, they could hire any number of bot hackers who could probably whip up reasonably good "battle bots" in a week or two, then just copy what they did.
Quote: Besides who says that it would be good for the game to have all PvE content behave like real PvP?
I did. For the reasons that I stated. The necessity of having to do PvE in a ship that's more or less useless for PvP makes ratter vs. roamer encounters uninteresting. They should be more interesting.
Quote: This whole notion centers on the failed idea that if players were exposed to a PvP like setting and had to fly PvP fit ships in their PvE activities they would transition from PvE to actual PvP activities.
First of all, I'm pretty sure an idea has to be tried before it fails. Secondly, that's not my reason for suggesting this at all. My focus here is primarily 0.0 anoms. Players running them are not usually true-blue carebears. They are people who engage in PvP, or are at least open to it, or are maybe even doing it on their main while they're doing mind-numbing PvE with their alt. This isn't about getting them to try PvP, it's about making the PvP encounters more interesting than "neutral in local, quick, dock up".
Quote: After all that I have no problems with CCP adding a series of optional more PvP like missions at all levels into the game. pehaps changes to the burner missions would be a good place to start.
I don't think that missions should be the focus of this at all, though the idea could be applied to low-sec missions. I'm thinking more of 0.0 anom runners. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1710
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Posted - 2015.07.28 13:51:35 -
[9] - Quote
Tackle can never be a requirement as it invalidates ALL long range fits. |
Spugg Galdon
Nisroc Angels
732
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 14:12:56 -
[10] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Tackle can never be a requirement as it invalidates ALL long range fits.
Not really, working with a tackler and having teamwork and all that is doable. But I do see your point. A solo ship who wants to engage over 24km will have issues. |
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davet517
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
113
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Posted - 2015.07.28 14:16:20 -
[11] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Tackle can never be a requirement as it invalidates ALL long range fits.
Bring a tackler, and make sure that the AI adapts the NPC fleet comp to what you brought, and that the reward scales appropriately.
Imagine rock-paper-scissors PVE where the fleet comp of what you're facing keeps changing as you kill ships, getting more challenging for you. Would be really cool. Despite my tag, I might even rat again. It would be awfully cool to warp into an anom wondering what kind of solo or small gang PvP setup you were about to face.
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Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
327
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 16:01:16 -
[12] - Quote
davet517 wrote:This is hardly the first time this has been suggested. Hell, it's not even the first time it's been suggested by me (just not this year).
Yes, it has been posted a 100 times before. nad idea then and still is now.
in before lock.
tick tick tick as i sometimes do timing how long it takes for the lock to hit.
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
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Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
308
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 16:44:12 -
[13] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:It's too bad that they screwed up Burner missions so badly. This is what we should have had for Burner missions, instead we got stupidly powerful mindless NPCs, who are just as predictable and easy to kill (with the right setup) as regular NPC's.
Just curious though, how does the game tell whether a hostile player warped in or a friendly one? Standings?
What is to stop me from playing games with standings to fool the system?
rats stick around until acts of aggression are committed
so if the new player attacks the previous ratter, rats warp off if the new player attacks the rats, more rats warp in
For posting an idea into F&I:
come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it.....
If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1417
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 16:57:30 -
[14] - Quote
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:It's too bad that they screwed up Burner missions so badly. This is what we should have had for Burner missions, instead we got stupidly powerful mindless NPCs, who are just as predictable and easy to kill (with the right setup) as regular NPC's.
Just curious though, how does the game tell whether a hostile player warped in or a friendly one? Standings?
What is to stop me from playing games with standings to fool the system? rats stick around until acts of aggression are committed so if the new player attacks the previous ratter, rats warp off if the new player attacks the rats, more rats warp in
My alt shoots me once with a civilian weapon.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
40
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 17:05:31 -
[15] - Quote
Eve PvP is boring the living hell out of me, so no, it will be avoided even if I'm going to have to rat in full PvP fitting.
I'd rather go stabs or self-destruct than entertain a roamer. |
davet517
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
115
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 17:09:31 -
[16] - Quote
Orca Platypus wrote:
I'd rather go stabs or self-destruct than entertain a roamer.
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Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
40
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 17:14:42 -
[17] - Quote
davet517 wrote:Orca Platypus wrote:
I'd rather go stabs or self-destruct than entertain a roamer.
You entertain one roamer, 25 of them come. Not entertaining a roamer is pretty damn basic ratting policy. |
Grezh
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
40
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 17:25:26 -
[18] - Quote
I've played around with trying to get pvp fits to work in pve or vice versa and the problem is somewhat circular and very much tied to cap recharger and shield recharger being worthless on pvp vessels. Currently I've found that only drone vessels such as the Dominix or Armageddon would work reasonably well for this simply because of the strength and versatility of drones, with them I am able to get away with having a sub-par active tank for pve with their ability to snipe rats with sentries and this allows me to sacrifice more slots to pvp only modules such as cap boosters, ancillary reps, scrams, neuts and eccm.
The way to make ratter-roamer encounters more interesting and less skewed in roamers favour is a two pronged approach, make the overseer (NPCs with faction/deadspace/officer loot) have the ability to warp off as scramming trash rats would get dull quickly, and rebalance the modules that are almost exclusively used in pve to be viable in pvp on sub-cap combat vessels (cap rechargers, shield rechargers). A too big swing toward 'pvp-like' pve which would require the use of cap boosters and other such long reload/low spare ammo modules would still see ratters at a severe disadvantage when surprise pvp rolls around even if they would welcome the fight. |
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
197
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 17:37:59 -
[19] - Quote
won't change people wanting to dock up with neutral in local in 0.0, they may be open to the idea of pvp based on where they are but when ratting its to make isk not to pvp if there is a chance to lose isk then they won't do it. |
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
197
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 17:43:44 -
[20] - Quote
Orca Platypus wrote:davet517 wrote:Orca Platypus wrote:
I'd rather go stabs or self-destruct than entertain a roamer.
You entertain one roamer, 25 of them come. Not entertaining a roamer is pretty damn basic ratting policy. ED: Since most roamers are going to have more SP than me (because I have only 2010 char with 2 years break as my best), I will lose my ship anyway, so self-destructing is obviously better choice - you can't counter lack of SP. And stabs are SOP for ratting in dangerous areas.
the last time I saw only one roamer show up was years ago. Now the only thing warping into me are gangs. which no matter how pvp I fit my ship isn't going to be well against 4 or more hostiles |
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16453
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 18:01:28 -
[21] - Quote
Its impossible to do as the AI simple does not act like a player.
If they do manage to make one then skynet will take over and all of our hope rests with john conner
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
40
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 19:50:17 -
[22] - Quote
Lady Rift wrote:the last time I saw only one roamer show up was years ago. Now the only thing warping into me are gangs. which no matter how pvp I fit my ship isn't going to be well against 4 or more hostiles When you have enough fingers to count the number of jumps required to reach Catch, Stain and Curse, roamers are your everyday pests. |
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
197
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 20:36:52 -
[23] - Quote
Orca Platypus wrote:Lady Rift wrote:the last time I saw only one roamer show up was years ago. Now the only thing warping into me are gangs. which no matter how pvp I fit my ship isn't going to be well against 4 or more hostiles When you have enough fingers to count the number of jumps required to reach Catch, Stain and Curse, roamers are your everyday pests.
move to better space I would say then. dek is nice. |
Baaldor
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society Black Legion.
437
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 20:55:53 -
[24] - Quote
Lady Rift wrote:won't change people wanting to dock up with neutral in local in 0.0, they may be open to the idea of pvp based on where they are but when ratting its to make isk not to pvp if there is a chance to lose isk then they won't do it.
it is not isk, it is the hand wringing behind the key board.
The risk of loss has been almost eliminated due to the isk faucet that is wide open at the moment. No worries in losing your pod's, no worries on losing anything any more.
if some one wants to inject risk in the game, you would have to cram a sht ton of high end plants in your head to get the thrill back again.
No, isk no longer is a viable argument, it is an excuse.
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Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
40
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 22:03:32 -
[25] - Quote
Lady Rift wrote:Orca Platypus wrote:Lady Rift wrote:the last time I saw only one roamer show up was years ago. Now the only thing warping into me are gangs. which no matter how pvp I fit my ship isn't going to be well against 4 or more hostiles When you have enough fingers to count the number of jumps required to reach Catch, Stain and Curse, roamers are your everyday pests. move to better space I would say then. dek is nice.
I certainly will, when gewns will be thrown out of there. |
Dave Stark
7512
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 22:09:26 -
[26] - Quote
They tried it.
We got those ****** burner missions. |
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
40
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 22:14:03 -
[27] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:They tried it.
We got those ****** burner missions.
I'd say they made a good harvest of killmails when they were introduced. They just failed to adapt.
We got those ****** drifters then. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
713
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 22:54:08 -
[28] - Quote
davet517 wrote:This is hardly the first time this has been suggested. Hell, it's not even the first time it's been suggested by me (just not this year).
The basic problem with combat PvE in eve is that it's too different from PvP. It's a predictable, mindless grind where your ship is hilariously over-powered compared to the NPCs that you are fighting, so to make it interesting at all, you fight dozens of them.
Not only is this boring and predictable, it requires using ship doctrines that are very different from, and useless in, PvP. As a consequence, there are no interesting ratter vs. roamer fights. Roamer warps in, ratter tries to run, and he either gets caught, or not. What could have been an interesting fight is either a one-sided gank, or a miss.
So, here's what I'd propose:
Content Scaling: Fewer rats, but tougher, and that have more player-like behavior, for instance, have to point them, or they'll warp off if they're losing. Instead of having dozens of rats on the field, have one warp in as one is going down. Vary the rats that warp in to provide changing, challenging scenarios for the player. Have the kinds of ships that you face change depending on the ship that you brought, as opposed to a Sanctum always having the same thing. It should almost have the feel of a PvPer's dojo, where you are training for fights against players. Bounties of course would have to be higher per unit, to adjust for the smaller number of ships.
Get Ready to Rumble: Make combat anoms accessible through ded gates, and have those gates scale to whatever the player inside brought. If he's in a frig, you can only get a frig through, similar to the way FW sites work, only with more player choice. If a hostile player warps in, the rats warp off, leaving the players to fight. If a friendly player warps in, the content scales to match the new players on the field.
Some things....
Even in pvp there is no pvp fit. You change homes a bit you will come across the good ole man where did you dig up that fit discussion when you show up on posted mails? Umm its the old corp one I ran, kind of like it so recorded it to have when I left it. Well its crap, lose it.
Not all pvp ships tackle. this would make pvp even more boring as it has to be a brawler fit for it. No variety as snipe builds go out the window. As well tackling and sniping do not go in the same sentence with the technical limitation a sniper to now tackle is getting rats in the last place they want them....buzzing around 20km's or less. You know, the ideal range to start playing traversal games. 1200m/s fakes out tracking at close range better than at 70.
Hell I have some brawling fits....don't tackle with either. I have a fleet wolf. No tackle, it relies on others to do that. Mids MSE II and prop mod. Lows are gyro TE heavy (you get some fitting options when you don't worry about putting armour tank on a wolf). rigs enhance combat ability. Someone else tackles, I come in like a lead pipe to the back of the head.
With scaling you have farming. I have 2 very capable tengu pilots. Bring in the pvp tengu's everyone loves so much and farm away. Or the combat char flies all t3. Web loki/tengu is looking good. And with this half assed escalation is looking to be cost effective to run both accounts worst case.
YOu can also get this now. PVP ships can pve. Its not the isk per hour some would like but it works. Players choose to go in with the IWIN pve smashing rides. Me.....I don't feel less of man for having to warp out of mission to get a second wind and fly back in.
Worth noting this kInd if what smart pvp players do, at least at BS level. I didn't go oh no my rokh is about to die and stay there to die. Press warp, if not tackled gtfo, get my second wind, jump on a good warp in, round 2,3,4,...... fight.
My level 3 AF mission runner(I do this to spice up pve once in a while) is my pvp jaguar. Several actually. One jaguar has t2 resist rigs, another mixes cdfe and a gun rigs, other mixes work too, I just pull off scram. It keeps the web. PVP by extraction...if I am keeping range control for webs decent I will be keeping scram on target as well. that and level 3 is a lot of dps incoming....jaguar flown like ass is a dead jaguar. |
TheExtruder
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
55
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 23:01:02 -
[29] - Quote
+1 well written ideas, i like it, one step at a time we can make pve more like pvp |
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
40
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 23:27:38 -
[30] - Quote
TheExtruder wrote:+1 well written ideas, i like it, one step at a time we can make pve more like pvp Why do you all want to bring your snorefests to my pacy pve? |
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