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Fung Ku
V0LTA Triumvirate.
7
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Posted - 2015.07.29 13:55:19 -
[1] - Quote
My experience of Fozziesov is not so great.
Troll ceptors seem to be the meta, and generally it seems that methods being used are to literally reinforce all low defense systems within an hour or 2.
This all seems fun, but lets face it, its not creating content, its just causing mass amounts of trolling.
This is the system we have now, and am sure that things will settle down, however I do believe that the system in general will be more tolerable, with a slight nerf to trollceptors.
IMO, the ceptor is overpowered for the 'troll sov' role for the following reasons:
Bubble immunity speed fit 5.5k m/s + agile can cover large distances in no time at all
Combining all of these benefits, It becomes an almost unstoppable doctrine.
I propose the following, minor nerf, to make troll ceptors slightly less viable:
Increasing the consumption of Stront for T1 entosis links, to perhaps 3 or 4 units per cycle.
How will this nerf the troll ceptor?
Ceptors will be required to make a decision as to fit for speed, with limited amounts of stront for entosis cycles, or;
fit cargo expander making ceptors less agile, and fast but allowing more cycles of entosis, but easier to defend against.
Just my 2 cents,
Fung Ku |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1424
|
Posted - 2015.07.29 14:04:44 -
[2] - Quote
It's almost like hundreds of players predicted that this would happen.
Content denial was the best way to win in Eve during Dominion Sov. Reinforce their things. Make them form up. Blue ball. Rinse and repeat until they stop forming. Then grind all the things.
It's pretty much the winning strategy for just about anything in Eve.
To the extent that Fozziesov allows that to continue, it will be a failure.
The whole point of the Entosis link was to give the offense the power to prevent the defender from simply docking up and ignoring a small roaming gang. Unfortunately, the offense still has the power to avoid the actual fight because they do not have to commit anything to the fight.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
127
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Posted - 2015.07.29 14:06:45 -
[3] - Quote
If you have a system where you can't quickly mount a defense against someone, do you really deserve to have that system?
Working as intended. Only keep the systems you can ACTUALLY defend. |
Fung Ku
V0LTA Triumvirate.
7
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Posted - 2015.07.29 14:10:34 -
[4] - Quote
Cidanel Afuran wrote:If you have a system where you can't quickly mount a defense against someone, do you really deserve to have that system?
Working as intended. Only keep the systems you can ACTUALLY defend.
This is entirely right, however this post isn't about contested space which is likely to be taken.
I am talking in regards to troll ceptors, the idea that you can reinforce massive amounts of systems as an attacker, with no intention of taking the space. Its the nuisance, as an attacker, with no intention of fighting.
I fully agree you shouldn't hold space which you cant defend. |
SFM Hobb3s
Wrecking Shots Black Legion.
338
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Posted - 2015.07.29 14:11:42 -
[5] - Quote
Yeah we did all see this coming.
How about having just the initial entosis required to be performed by minimum 5 attackers? This means small gangs can still reinforce stuff, it just eliminates the potential of one trollceptor running amok. |
Hogeron Amelan
Marquie-X. Triumvirate.
0
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Posted - 2015.07.29 14:15:03 -
[6] - Quote
It would already fix it a bit when you restrain Entosis Links to Battlecruisers and Battleships and their T2 aquivalents only. This will make a sov-attack serious buisness to both sides.
For the idea of FozzieSov was to give sov tho those who actuialy have the military power and activity in the area to hold it, small roaming gangs like Ceptors and Nano-Cruisers are definately no military power to seriously hold sov and therefor just meta. Seriously you can't expect an alliance to ninja-form everytime a troll-ceptor goes suicide-entosing to drag a fleet out. |
Lu Ziffer
Jelly Baby Corporation Fidelas Constans
29
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Posted - 2015.07.29 14:20:26 -
[7] - Quote
The counter is easy have a ship orbiting at max range with 10km/s .
It does not work as intended because now SOV has nothing todo with the power influence anymore just who can send more fast troll ships.
It worked in the first incarnation where Tower control was needed to accquire SOV This new SOV is like paintball capture the flag with people with real guns on the sidelines.
This no structure grinding idea made it worse I would happyly return to the SOV system from 2008.
It was a grind but at least you had to commit your fleet to make a differance and if you wanted to siege faster this you had to split the fleet and had a higher risk.
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Somal Thunder
V0LTA Triumvirate.
21
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Posted - 2015.07.29 14:22:42 -
[8] - Quote
IMHO things are working somewhat as intended, although I will agree it's no fun that I am literally waiting for a ceptor to entosis something, only to miss him by a dozen meters because I don't have links. Why are you making me need links?
We could increase t1 entosis stront consumption, making the strontium consumption become another reason to use T2 entosis. But interceptors are still going to be able to carry enough stront to reinforce something.
Something that really jeeves me is when a system has like 1.6x multiplier and the third entosis cycle runs for 20 seconds and you have to sit there for 4 minutes 40 seconds. When there is no progress to be made, the entosis could allow you to instantly deactivate it.
But more seriously, increase the warmup cycle stront consumption for t1 entosis -- this would give trollceptors enough stront for to reinforce a node alone if only they are not driven off the grid. The balance between warmup and normal cycle would be quite uneven for this to work, because the ceptors should be able to reinforce even a medium-highish multiplier system without refuelling IF nobody shows up.
Interceptors were supposedly balanced back in the day to have smallish cargo holds. Now make them matter. |
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
127
|
Posted - 2015.07.29 14:30:03 -
[9] - Quote
Fung Ku wrote: This is entirely right, however this post isn't about contested space which is likely to be taken.
I am talking in regards to troll ceptors, the idea that you can reinforce massive amounts of systems as an attacker, with no intention of taking the space. Its the nuisance, as an attacker, with no intention of fighting.
I fully agree you shouldn't hold space which you cant defend.
I understand what you're saying, but if you can't grab a few buddies to hunt the ceptor, you can't really defend your space |
Arcturus Gallow
eXceed Inc. Triumvirate.
14
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Posted - 2015.07.29 14:31:59 -
[10] - Quote
I'm not sure trollceptors are that overpowered.
If the goal to have a few people living in each system and using them, it is not trollceptors that are overpowered, its most of the current sov holders that are not adapted to the new system.
Currently, yes if you have 20 empty systems with low index, yes 20 ceptors can reinforce everything in no time. Now, if you have 20 systems with 2-3 people in each, with higher index, you can prevent the ceptors to effectively attack your sov easy.
But needing 3-4 units of stront per cycle instead of one would be a good idea anyway. |
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Fung Ku
V0LTA Triumvirate.
7
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Posted - 2015.07.29 14:39:07 -
[11] - Quote
Cidanel Afuran wrote:Fung Ku wrote: This is entirely right, however this post isn't about contested space which is likely to be taken.
I am talking in regards to troll ceptors, the idea that you can reinforce massive amounts of systems as an attacker, with no intention of taking the space. Its the nuisance, as an attacker, with no intention of fighting.
I fully agree you shouldn't hold space which you cant defend.
I understand what you're saying, but if you can't grab a few buddies to hunt the ceptor, you can't really defend your space
A quick example.
Yesterday we had 10+systems reinforced by troll ceptors. We formed and hunted, I killed 2 personally. No problem there. But generally the ceptors are able to start there cycle, and if contested by defenders, burn away, wait for entosis to stop, and then warp off and cloak.
All of that is time sensitive. Yes increasing index makes it easier for defenders and this is definitely how the mechanic is intended to work.
How did we respond?
We sent out 20 troll ceptors today, and reinforced 10+ of their systems. Do either us or our attackers intend to take the space we are reinforcing? No.
We are merely doing it to troll each other, and my only purpose of this thread is to try and make it slightly harder for this to be accomplished. |
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
127
|
Posted - 2015.07.29 15:29:50 -
[12] - Quote
Fung Ku wrote: A quick example.
Yesterday we had 10+systems reinforced by troll ceptors. We formed and hunted, I killed 2 personally. No problem there. But generally the ceptors are able to start there cycle, and if contested by defenders, burn away, wait for entosis to stop, and then warp off and cloak.
All of that is time sensitive. Yes increasing index makes it easier for defenders and this is definitely how the mechanic is intended to work.
How did we respond?
We sent out 20 troll ceptors today, and reinforced 10+ of their systems. Do either us or our attackers intend to take the space we are reinforcing? No.
We are merely doing it to troll each other, and my only purpose of this thread is to try and make it slightly harder for this to be accomplished.
So it's creating fights, creating content. It's moving people to PvP instead of raking in ISK AFK ratting. Seems to be working... |
Fung Ku
V0LTA Triumvirate.
7
|
Posted - 2015.07.29 15:32:41 -
[13] - Quote
Cidanel Afuran wrote:Fung Ku wrote: A quick example.
Yesterday we had 10+systems reinforced by troll ceptors. We formed and hunted, I killed 2 personally. No problem there. But generally the ceptors are able to start there cycle, and if contested by defenders, burn away, wait for entosis to stop, and then warp off and cloak.
All of that is time sensitive. Yes increasing index makes it easier for defenders and this is definitely how the mechanic is intended to work.
How did we respond?
We sent out 20 troll ceptors today, and reinforced 10+ of their systems. Do either us or our attackers intend to take the space we are reinforcing? No.
We are merely doing it to troll each other, and my only purpose of this thread is to try and make it slightly harder for this to be accomplished.
So it's creating fights, creating content. It's moving people to PvP instead of raking in ISK AFK ratting. Seems to be working...
It isnt creating fights, thats the point. |
Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
1719
|
Posted - 2015.07.29 15:38:17 -
[14] - Quote
Your definition of "fight" is too limited.
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
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Josef Kennet
Zima Corp Infinity Space.
0
|
Posted - 2015.07.29 15:44:07 -
[15] - Quote
Make entosis for capitals only. If you cannot by a carrier you probably shouldnt waste A LOT of other players time. |
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
330
|
Posted - 2015.07.29 16:17:29 -
[16] - Quote
If trollcepters are not going to take anything then problem solved but if they are being used to test your resolve and you fail then working as intended, either way this idea isnt needed.
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
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Kalen Pavle
Quam Singulari Triumvirate.
52
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Posted - 2015.07.29 16:33:36 -
[17] - Quote
I maintain that the fact that the defense multiplier applies to stationary objects in space is ********. It is the definition of warfare through boredom.
The benefits need to apply to the people defending their space, not to the stationary objects that spawn in space. Give them a movement bonus or something that helps them deploy faster, or something.
On the same note, all the nodes for a capture should spawn in the first 10 minutes. If I have 20 people ready to start capturing an undefended freeport, why do I need to spend 2 hours to do it because nodes only spawn 5 at a time in the whole constellation?
This is literally the worst sov system I've ever played in. I'm pretty sure one of the design goals for fozziesov was to be fun. Orbiting a node for between 15 and 65 minutes on an alt is not fun. There is no way to make it fun. There is also no way to accelerate the 'I'm at the dentist' feeling beyond having 5 people on nodes. If I have 300 people to throw at an undefended system, why does it take the same amount of time as throwing 5 alts at it? |
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
330
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Posted - 2015.07.29 16:57:00 -
[18] - Quote
Josef Kennet wrote:Make entosis for capitals only. If you cannot by a carrier you probably shouldnt waste A LOT of other players time.
Sov holders having to defend against all challengers both small and large was the idea behind fozziesov. The large entities in the game brought this on themselves when they made informal agreements of non-aggression. If nulllsec had lived up to the dream of eve and fought and tried to eliminate their neighbors instad of making nullsec into 'landlords and farmers in space' then this woud not have been necessary.
Small, poorly funded groups, having a chance to fight the big boys is what fozziesov us about and should be encouraged not artificially nerfed because it is actually working and you dont like it.
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
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Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
330
|
Posted - 2015.07.29 17:14:16 -
[19] - Quote
Hogeron Amelan wrote:It would already fix it a bit when you restrain Entosis Links to Battlecruisers and Battleships and their T2 aquivalents only. This will make a sov-attack serious buisness to both sides.
For the idea of FozzieSov was to give sov tho those who actuialy have the military power and activity in the area to hold it, small roaming gangs like Ceptors and Nano-Cruisers are definately no military power to seriously hold sov and therefor just meta. Seriously you can't expect an alliance to ninja-form everytime a troll-ceptor goes suicide-entosing to drag a fleet out.
Annoying players till the bend to your will is a valid game strategy, i give CODE as an example. If you dont want to defend because it is annoying to do so then there are plenty of places to play in the game where you cannot hold sov where you can choose to play and let a more resolute group take your holdings.
In short, working as intended.
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
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Lu Ziffer
Jelly Baby Corporation Fidelas Constans
31
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Posted - 2015.07.29 17:22:52 -
[20] - Quote
Ok let's say you do not defend what happens? You loose SOV which you do not need. If someone tries to move in you have a training exercise in blueballing and how to hunt ceptors with a carrier.
So much fun for both sides |
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Josef Kennet
Zima Corp Infinity Space.
0
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Posted - 2015.07.29 17:32:02 -
[21] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:Josef Kennet wrote:Make entosis for capitals only. If you cannot by a carrier you probably shouldnt waste A LOT of other players time. Sov holders having to defend against all challengers both small and large was the idea behind fozziesov. The large entities in the game brought this on themselves when they made informal agreements of non-aggression. If nulllsec had lived up to the dream of eve and fought and tried to eliminate their neighbors instad of making nullsec into 'landlords and farmers in space' then this woud not have been necessary. Small, poorly funded groups, having a chance to fight the big boys is what fozziesov us about and should be encouraged not artificially nerfed because it is actually working and you dont like it.
The answer is: there is no fight at all. 1 ceptor just entosis all systems into 1 reinforce again, again, again and again. He do not want this systems and dont fight for them. This system is nice only to troll somebody.
And still if small alliance takes some space its just a matter of time when the big one will fly in and take it back. Or just fun troll them in the same way. No one (from small alliances) will move their assets in null (because they will lose it to another pair of trollcepors).
So, what we have in the end: - no fights (especially large ones which are for me the best part of the game) - a lot of annoying gameplay for the defenders even if the attacker dont want to take sov. - for now there not to many people in null and will be even less
CCP should look into something different: some space should be good for living and holding and fighting of LARGE alliances and some other shouldnt be. And the last one: why new (and not so new) players will move to null if they can make more ISK on hi-sec incursions and the only fun in null is trying to catch trollceptors?
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Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
130
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Posted - 2015.07.29 17:38:23 -
[22] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Your definition of "fight" is too limited.
Anything that breaks up the mindless AFK ratting/mining of the blue doughnut is a positive in my mind. Anything that makes null more dangerous/unpredictable again is a good thing right now. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1424
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Posted - 2015.07.29 17:48:14 -
[23] - Quote
SFM Hobb3s wrote:Yeah we did all see this coming.
How about having just the initial entosis required to be performed by minimum 5 attackers? This means small gangs can still reinforce stuff, it just eliminates the potential of one trollceptor running amok.
The issue isn't really one trollceptor running amok, it's that the offense does not really have to commit to the fight. There is no penalty for initiating the Entosis. There is no penalty for flying off grid. There is no penalty for failing to show up to offensive timers. The offense can still blue ball as much as they want, while the defender cannot ignore any threats if they want to keep their space.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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M1k3y Koontz
Respawn Disabled Initiative Mercenaries
766
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Posted - 2015.07.29 18:47:29 -
[24] - Quote
If the indexes are low what are you doing with that space? Not much apparently.
Nobody is making you go rep the structures you cant be bothered to care about. Working as intended.
How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
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Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
311
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Posted - 2015.07.29 18:58:44 -
[25] - Quote
why are people not just putting a couple of kill-ships on their Ihubs during vulnerability window?
For posting an idea into F&I:
come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it.....
If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
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Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
332
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Posted - 2015.07.30 04:06:38 -
[26] - Quote
Josef Kennet wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote:Josef Kennet wrote:Make entosis for capitals only. If you cannot by a carrier you probably shouldnt waste A LOT of other players time. Sov holders having to defend against all challengers both small and large was the idea behind fozziesov. The large entities in the game brought this on themselves when they made informal agreements of non-aggression. If nulllsec had lived up to the dream of eve and fought and tried to eliminate their neighbors instad of making nullsec into 'landlords and farmers in space' then this woud not have been necessary. Small, poorly funded groups, having a chance to fight the big boys is what fozziesov us about and should be encouraged not artificially nerfed because it is actually working and you dont like it. The answer is: there is no fight at all. 1 ceptor just entosis all systems into 1 reinforce again, again, again and again. He do not want this systems and dont fight for them. This system is nice only to troll somebody. And still if small alliance takes some space its just a matter of time when the big one will fly in and take it back. Or just fun troll them in the same way. No one (from small alliances) will move their assets in null (because they will lose it to another pair of trollcepors). So, what we have in the end: - no fights (especially large ones which are for me the best part of the game) - a lot of annoying gameplay for the defenders even if the attacker dont want to take sov. - for now there not to many people in null and will be even less CCP should look into something different: some space should be good for living and holding and fighting of LARGE alliances and some other shouldnt be. And the last one: why new (and not so new) players will move to null if they can make more ISK on hi-sec incursions and the only fun in null is trying to catch trollceptors?
"I dont like it; therfore, it isnt valid game play", doesnt cut as a reason for nerfing someone elses game play.
Making the game annoying for others is a cherished EVE tradition and if you cannot deal with this in your gaming, leave EVE.
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
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Barrogh Habalu
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
972
|
Posted - 2015.07.30 06:56:59 -
[27] - Quote
Cidanel Afuran wrote:If you have a system where you can't quickly mount a defense against someone, do you really deserve to have that system?
Working as intended. Only keep the systems you can ACTUALLY defend. What is your take on the idea that you only reinforce systems you can ACTUALLY attack?
Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
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Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance
589
|
Posted - 2015.07.30 08:11:47 -
[28] - Quote
SFM Hobb3s wrote:Yeah we did all see this coming.
How about having just the initial entosis required to be performed by minimum 5 attackers? This means small gangs can still reinforce stuff, it just eliminates the potential of one trollceptor running amok.
A minimum concurrent connection size is probably not a bad way to deal with it. Any serious offence would carry many links anyway even if just inside a carrier or whatever.
Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
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Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance
589
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Posted - 2015.07.30 08:13:15 -
[29] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:Cidanel Afuran wrote:If you have a system where you can't quickly mount a defense against someone, do you really deserve to have that system?
Working as intended. Only keep the systems you can ACTUALLY defend. What is your take on the idea that you only reinforce systems you can ACTUALLY attack?
How hard do you think it is to walk in to an abandoned warehouse and declare yourself its current occupant?
Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
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Lu Ziffer
Jelly Baby Corporation Fidelas Constans
32
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Posted - 2015.07.30 08:20:50 -
[30] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:How hard do you think it is to walk in to an abandoned warehouse and declare yourself its current occupant? Very easy but it does not matter if your neighbour is a bored PVPer with to much ammo who just could not be bothered to put a flag on the warehouse. |
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