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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6591
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Posted - 2015.08.20 20:46:25 -
[601] - Quote
guinea12 wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Thanks, got another one with the same groupings from last year? No. The map is generated on a daily basis. I don't know if past maps are stored somewhere. That's a shame.
guinea12 wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Doesn't it make you wonder though why the space is so worthless that nobody wants to claim it? I can't stick a broken fridge outside my house for more than 10 minutes before someone's claimed it. How badly balanced do null systems need to be for them to be so unwanted? I like that analogy. The reason why someone takes the fridge is because it is obviously worthless to you but not to them. Would they wrestle a pitbull for it? No. But if its previous owner doesn't want it anymore, they might as well take it and see if they can find a use for it somehow. I would love the new mechanic to lead to that kind of thing in terms of 0.0 space. That would be nice. Unfortunately most sov space is worth about as much as a low class wormhole. Not the type of thing a passer by is likely to say "ooh, this is nice!"
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16938
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Posted - 2015.08.20 20:57:33 -
[602] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Thanks, got another one with the same groupings from last year? guinea12 wrote:Malcanis made the very good point that the notion that every bit of space needs to be owned by someone all the time is rather toxic.
I agree. Why shouldn't we have bits of space that, simply for the fact that the current 0.0 powers right now are not interested in having it or capable of defending it remain in freeport mode until someone steps up to try and live in it, remain unallocated? Doesn't it make you wonder though why the space is so worthless that nobody wants to claim it? I can't stick a broken fridge outside my house for more than 10 minutes before someone's claimed it. How badly balanced do null systems need to be for them to be so unwanted?
If space is so worthless how come any of it is claimed?
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6591
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Posted - 2015.08.20 21:11:29 -
[603] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Thanks, got another one with the same groupings from last year? guinea12 wrote:Malcanis made the very good point that the notion that every bit of space needs to be owned by someone all the time is rather toxic.
I agree. Why shouldn't we have bits of space that, simply for the fact that the current 0.0 powers right now are not interested in having it or capable of defending it remain in freeport mode until someone steps up to try and live in it, remain unallocated? Doesn't it make you wonder though why the space is so worthless that nobody wants to claim it? I can't stick a broken fridge outside my house for more than 10 minutes before someone's claimed it. How badly balanced do null systems need to be for them to be so unwanted? If space is so worthless how come any of it is claimed? It's not that it's completely useless, it's that it's low value. In massive quantities it's OK. To most people though taking a few systems is worth less than just moving into a WH or living in NPC null, and none of it is really worth massive battles these days, hence the lack of real conflict in null. It'd be nice if there were good reasons to fight over it.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
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guinea12
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2015.08.20 21:25:20 -
[604] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:guinea12 wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Thanks, got another one with the same groupings from last year? No. The map is generated on a daily basis. I don't know if past maps are stored somewhere. That's a shame. Acutally, k898 was right. They are stored on eve files. Here's the one from exactly one year ago. http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/coalitionsov/Coal20140820.png
Lucas Kell wrote:It's not that it's completely useless, it's that it's low value. In massive quantities it's OK. To most people though taking a few systems is worth less than just moving into a WH or living in NPC null, and none of it is really worth massive battles these days, hence the lack of real conflict in null. It'd be nice if there were good reasons to fight over it. You mean, like, economical reasons? Like one of the powerblocks going "oh **** we're so poor, we really need that one constellation the other powerblock has, in order to pay our bills so let's fight them over it"? I am not entirely sure that that is a likely scenario |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1850
|
Posted - 2015.08.21 12:10:51 -
[605] - Quote
I wonder if we added to those maps the headcount/system and relationship between that and crying about the current system.... |
Tsukinosuke
Id Est
30
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Posted - 2015.08.21 13:22:41 -
[606] - Quote
with 1635 members, an alliance holds 234 sovereignty.. that is the problem.. and we all hope FozzieSov will fix it.. none should stop trying to make new eden better space for ALL..
anti-antagonist "not a friend of enemy of antagonist"
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16941
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Posted - 2015.08.22 09:25:43 -
[607] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Malcanis wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Thanks, got another one with the same groupings from last year? guinea12 wrote:Malcanis made the very good point that the notion that every bit of space needs to be owned by someone all the time is rather toxic.
I agree. Why shouldn't we have bits of space that, simply for the fact that the current 0.0 powers right now are not interested in having it or capable of defending it remain in freeport mode until someone steps up to try and live in it, remain unallocated? Doesn't it make you wonder though why the space is so worthless that nobody wants to claim it? I can't stick a broken fridge outside my house for more than 10 minutes before someone's claimed it. How badly balanced do null systems need to be for them to be so unwanted? If space is so worthless how come any of it is claimed? It's not that it's completely useless, it's that it's low value. In massive quantities it's OK. To most people though taking a few systems is worth less than just moving into a WH or living in NPC null, and none of it is really worth massive battles these days, hence the lack of real conflict in null. It'd be nice if there were good reasons to fight over it.
What's OK about "massive quantities", given that the primary wealth generators in sov 0.0 are the anomalies, which improve in quality and quantity as the indexes are increased?
For an alliance the size of INIT., 2 constellations would be ample - we actually have more space than we need sharing Tenal with RZR. When Citadels are introduced, allowing multiple structures per system, then the incentive to consolidate will increase even further.
Aint mean we won't fight for what we have though. We might even use our super special space-magic power of undocking and having fun.
The common theme I see running through this thread (and others like it) is people complaining about having a bad time when they try and engage with Aegis Sov as if it were Dominion Sov. You've put more effort into telling everyone you're not having fun trying to do things the old way in a new system than I've put into actually having fun in it. And I'm having plenty of fun tyvm.
Your cheese has been moved. It's time to cast aside old assumptions about "the right way" to do things and take a fresh look.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16948
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Posted - 2015.08.22 19:38:53 -
[608] - Quote
Another day, another couple of fun fights in sov space. How's sitting in station crying working out for you?
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6603
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Posted - 2015.08.23 01:30:36 -
[609] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:What's OK about "massive quantities", given that the primary wealth generators in sov 0.0 are the anomalies, which improve in quality and quantity as the indexes are increased? The more you have, the easier it is to defend. If you're fully utilising your space, then 100 people working in 2 systems will be more efficient that 2 sets of 50 in one each. Scaled up that continues, so when you hold a couple of constellations and fully utilise it, the effort to defend it balances out better with the rewards from it.
Malcanis wrote:The common theme I see running through this thread (and others like it) is people complaining about having a bad time when they try and engage with Aegis Sov as if it were Dominion Sov. You've put more effort into telling everyone you're not having fun trying to do things the old way in a new system than I've put into actually having fun in it. And I'm having plenty of fun tyvm. Most people aren't having fun even when playing it as Aegis sov. Mate... it's a mining laser and a structure. That's what the bulk of the mechanic is. Add to that the most efficient way of attacking sov is by using lots of uncatchable ships, and it's a textbook example of a bad mechanic. The mechanic should be engaging and fun for all parties, but it's not. Clearly there are plenty of groups of people who see it as nothing but a chore to play whack-a-mole to defend systems.
Malcanis wrote:Another day, another couple of fun fights in sov space. How's sitting in station crying working out for you? Congratulations. I guess if CCPs aim was "make malcanis happy while clearly the vast majority of null players find the new mechanics boring as sin" then it's a win. I'm not generally docked, we still have fights, much less than normal (dotlan stats show down 16% AFAIK) but less doesn't mean none, and neither am I crying, this is called "providing feedback on game mechanics". You're not so good at trolling these days bro.
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guinea12
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2015.08.23 07:39:06 -
[610] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:The more you have, the easier it is to defend. If you're fully utilising your space, then 100 people working in 2 systems will be more efficient that 2 sets of 50 in one each. Scaled up that continues, so when you hold a couple of constellations and fully utilise it, the effort to defend it balances out better with the rewards from it. Yes. Have your space and live in it and you will reap the rewards. Watching the tournament yesterday, I saw ads aimed at carebears that offered space to pve in. Unsurprisingly, those ads were made by the Imperium as they seem to have understood how this new sov mechanic works and are adapting. More people in 0.0 gives more targets to roaming gangs, makes more need for defensive gangs, makes more pvp content. I hope, we can agree that that's a good thing.
Lucas Kell wrote:Most people aren't having fun even when playing it as Aegis sov. Mate... it's a mining laser and a structure. That's what the bulk of the mechanic is. Add to that the most efficient way of attacking sov is by using lots of uncatchable ships, and it's a textbook example of a bad mechanic. The mechanic should be engaging and fun for all parties, but it's not. Clearly there are plenty of groups of people who see it as nothing but a chore to play whack-a-mole to defend systems. That too is a good thing. It should require effort to defend your space so that you only defend your space if you acutally need it. By the way. Fighting for sov has only ever been interesting if someone fights back. This has not changed since the servers booted up for the first time and it will not change until the day CCP pulls the plug.
Reading some of the posts in this thread, I wonder if anyone has actually bothered to watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao20T98MoMk The reasoning behind Aegis sov is explained quite well by Fozzie himself.
With every major change, the community that is affected goes through different stages. That is not very surprising. The quality of your particular alliance can, as always, be determined by how fast you reach the final stage. Already, some seem to have reached that final stage. The names of these stages are: Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression and Acceptance
If your alliance reaches that final stage last, it wasn't any good to begin with. Just saying. |
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6603
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Posted - 2015.08.23 08:26:35 -
[611] - Quote
guinea12 wrote:That too is a good thing. It should require effort to defend your space so that you only defend your space if you acutally need it. By the way. Fighting for sov has only ever been interesting if someone fights back. This has not changed since the servers booted up for the first time and it will not change until the day CCP pulls the plug. Yes, it should require effort, but it should be entertaining. That's the goal of Fozziesov. And that's where it falls down. For most people involved it's not very fun.
guinea12 wrote:With every major change, the community that is affected goes through different stages. That is not very surprising. The quality of your particular alliance can, as always, be determined by how fast you reach the final stage. Already, some seem to have reached that final stage. The names of these stages are: Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression and Acceptance You may want to just accept crappy game mechanics, many people would rather provide feedback and have them turned into good game mechanics. It's why we attend roundtables and the like to provide feedback on the game and it's why the CSM exists. Fozziesov could be good and fun for all, but currently it's not.
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guinea12
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2015.08.23 11:11:09 -
[612] - Quote
Be honest. Have you watched the video? |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6603
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Posted - 2015.08.23 11:35:13 -
[613] - Quote
guinea12 wrote:Be honest. Have you watched the video? Nope. I was in the audience.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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guinea12
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2015.08.23 11:56:07 -
[614] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:guinea12 wrote:Be honest. Have you watched the video? Nope. I was in the audience. That must have been awesome. I admit, I am a bit jealous. Reading through some of the things you posted, I would have never guessed. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6604
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Posted - 2015.08.23 12:16:10 -
[615] - Quote
guinea12 wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:guinea12 wrote:Be honest. Have you watched the video? Nope. I was in the audience. That must have been awesome. I admit, I am a bit jealous. Reading through some of the things you posted, I would have never guessed. Yeah, was fun
What that I've posted has made you think that?
The way I see it, the goals have always been: 1. Make sov entertaining for all players involved. - This I feel has failed. Most players attacking sov are doing so to troll. They don't want sov, they just want to waste people's time by forcing them to chase them about. It's very amusing I'm sure for the people doing the trolling, but it's the equivalent of wider spread blueballing for defenders. In addition, when you are taking or defending sov properly, most of the fleet is sitting about waiting while the "entosis crew" run around doing stuff. Because entosis doesn't benefit from more players, if you bring 20 players, most of them have nothing to do if there's no engagement.
- For this I suggest increasing the minimum size of ship for fitting an entosis. BC would be a good choice. How to get the whole fleet involved in capture, I don't know. The system seems to be inherently boring if you don't get an engagement. Perhaps a much more rapid takeover or defense of space if completely uncontested would be good.
2. Make the system to contest sov simpler. - This has been a success. The only thing I'd suggest here is more in-game info as info available on crest should always be available in game so that everyone can access it with ease.
3. Ensure the system directs you to bring fleets that defeat your enemy and measures success on control of the grid. - This is partially working, but with evasion fit ships, you can just spread out over the system into small fleets who couldn't actually control the grid, hoping that one or two of them get through. As you successfully trigger timers, you make it so that the defender has even more locations to go to to reset the systems and it continues to grow from there. There will likely be a large scale demonstration of why this is bad soon. Empty systems, sure, they should be sure easy to take, but occupied systems shouldn't be under threat from tiny evasion fit fleets. Those types of ships should remain primarily for scouting and intercepting a target for a fleet, not to actually run the takeover.
- For this I suggest letting systems naturally reset if aggressors don;t continue the takeover of sov, and requiring multiple entosis links to get a sov capture started with a higher ADM.
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Ben Fenix
Net Neutrality
17
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Posted - 2015.08.27 16:24:11 -
[616] - Quote
Grats on making CSM. :)
Now that you are CSM, are you allowed to continue with this petition in the form of collective bargaining? Or is this suddenly against your NDA / CSM Contract?
Perfect timing. :)
Capital Ships Matter !
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
465
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Posted - 2015.08.28 15:42:35 -
[617] - Quote
I am going to need to push for my old damage stacking penalty I wrote up years ago. Incentive to split fire over press F1. Still can blob fire, but total damage is less than if spread, etc etc. Squad on squad fight, need ewar, etc. |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
8339
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Posted - 2015.08.30 11:36:47 -
[618] - Quote
Jesus, you nullbears whine more than even the hardiest Dodixieite.
Adapt or die, HTFU, etc etc.
[b]----
CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off.[/b]
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Max Fubarticus
The Scope Gallente Federation
15
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Posted - 2015.08.30 18:41:22 -
[619] - Quote
Problem: fozziesov in its current state critically reduces chances for large scale fights, fights that significantly separate EVE Online from its competitors.
False narrative. The large scale fights you speak of center around legacy tactics ( capital blops etc.). The new mechanic levels this playing field by allowing "guerrilla style" tactics to be an effective tool. By "effective tool" I mean:
1. A means in which an opponent can gather intel by measuring your response. 2. Requires the SOV holder to defend what they desire to keep and prioritize SOV holdings. 3. Requires any group who is determined to hold SOV, That they have ability to demonstrate force projection in relation to current or desired SOV holdings. and much more...
Gone are the days of holding SOV under the "threat" of response umbrella. If anything, you will have a fight. The scale depends upon your willingness to risk ships or SOV. That also means you will no longer be able to make the statement to your prospective renters that "the area is safe" Nothing is safe. Period!
Quote:Problem: low skill requirement practically affirms harassment towards any sov owner. While new player harassment is subject to a support ticket. Roaming fleets or interceptors shouldnGÇÖt be able to affect sovereignty
Really? By your own logic that would also mean that low sp members of CODE, flying Catalysts are harassing miners and haulers in hi sec! Your logic also demands that they should have to fly something other than a cheap destroyers in order to gank in hi sec. This whole petition nonsense is without merit. For years and years players have claimed null is broke. The fact is that those players whining about the new SOV are nothing more than a bunch of elitist adolescents who stomp their feet and throw tantrums when things don't go according to their liking. Adapt or leave!! |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16984
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Posted - 2015.08.31 13:21:33 -
[620] - Quote
Ben Fenix wrote:Grats on making CSM. :)
Now that you are CSM, are you allowed to continue with this petition in the form of collective bargaining? Or is this suddenly against your NDA / CSM Contract?
You posted this petition at 7-31 and Gorga was kicked out on 8-04? Perfect timing. :)
It doesn't contraven the "NDA" in anyway. It's laughably a wrong-headed attempt from a buggy whip manufacturer to ban automobiles, but it's still a perfectly legitimate action for any EVE player, CSM or otherwise, to make a case for a change they want.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Harry Forever
SpaceJunkys
1278
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Posted - 2015.09.10 13:24:16 -
[621] - Quote
but we want you guys to suffer
YouTube - Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm
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DeadDuck
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
160
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Posted - 2015.09.10 16:21:54 -
[622] - Quote
I proposed something a few days ago that would solve a lot of the issues Fozzie Sov is raising namely the indexes and the bullshits with command nodes, but still adressing the issue of unhabited space.
If people wanto read the wall of text: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5996949#post5996949
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DeeeBo
The Flying Tigers Gentlemen's.Club
1
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Posted - 2015.10.18 00:53:22 -
[623] - Quote
CCP just needs to admit that the recent changes are a failure, just like the Incarna expansion was. I mean give us a reason to log on this winter. Roll back the Phoebe jump changes, bring back Dominion SOV, let us slug it out all winter while they figure out something better, but please let's stop the lunacy of the current mechanics. Dominion SOV wasn't perfect and yes it was ridiculous that a fleet could travel from one end of EVE to the other in minutes, BUT IT WAS FUN . . . not tedious, boring, mind-numbing work. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
17163
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Posted - 2015.10.18 10:48:09 -
[624] - Quote
DeeeBo wrote:CCP just needs to admit that the recent changes are a failure, just like the Incarna expansion was. I mean give us a reason to log on this winter. Roll back the Phoebe jump changes, bring back Dominion SOV, let us slug it out all winter while they figure out something better, but please let's stop the lunacy of the current mechanics. Dominion SOV wasn't perfect and yes it was ridiculous that a fleet could travel from one end of EVE to the other in minutes, BUT IT WAS FUN . . . not tedious, boring, mind-numbing work.
Uhm, no it wasn't fun and yes it was "tedious, boring, mind-numbing work".
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Orob Ninebands
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
55
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Posted - 2015.10.20 22:45:25 -
[625] - Quote
Counter-Point:
I have heard many, many, many people express their approval of the new Sov mechanics. Not everyone thinks it is bad. Remember, we mostly only hear from the upset people in this game.
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Orob Ninebands
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
55
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Posted - 2015.10.20 22:46:54 -
[626] - Quote
DeeeBo wrote:CCP just needs to admit that the recent changes are a failure, just like the Incarna expansion was. I mean give us a reason to log on this winter. Roll back the Phoebe jump changes, bring back Dominion SOV, let us slug it out all winter while they figure out something better, but please let's stop the lunacy of the current mechanics. Dominion SOV wasn't perfect and yes it was ridiculous that a fleet could travel from one end of EVE to the other in minutes, BUT IT WAS FUN . . . not tedious, boring, mind-numbing work.
This is the new Sov, learn to accept it or don't log on. It isn't going away.
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Orob Ninebands
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
55
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Posted - 2015.10.20 22:48:57 -
[627] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:
Your cheese has been moved..
That right there pretty much sums up the crying.... |
DeeeBo
The Flying Tigers Gentlemen's.Club
1
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Posted - 2015.10.22 19:28:01 -
[628] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:DeeeBo wrote:CCP just needs to admit that the recent changes are a failure, just like the Incarna expansion was. I mean give us a reason to log on this winter. Roll back the Phoebe jump changes, bring back Dominion SOV, let us slug it out all winter while they figure out something better, but please let's stop the lunacy of the current mechanics. Dominion SOV wasn't perfect and yes it was ridiculous that a fleet could travel from one end of EVE to the other in minutes, BUT IT WAS FUN . . . not tedious, boring, mind-numbing work. Uhm, no it wasn't fun and yes it was "tedious, boring, mind-numbing work".
Dominion SOV was not perfect and SOV Grinding sucked, agreed, but the fights made it worth it IMO.
Orob Ninebands wrote:DeeeBo wrote:CCP just needs to admit that the recent changes are a failure, just like the Incarna expansion was. I mean give us a reason to log on this winter. Roll back the Phoebe jump changes, bring back Dominion SOV, let us slug it out all winter while they figure out something better, but please let's stop the lunacy of the current mechanics. Dominion SOV wasn't perfect and yes it was ridiculous that a fleet could travel from one end of EVE to the other in minutes, BUT IT WAS FUN . . . not tedious, boring, mind-numbing work. This is the new Sov, learn to accept it or don't log on. It isn't going away.
Being that CCP has changed the SOV system multiple times over the course of the game, that's ridiculous to say it isn't going away. Maybe it won't go away today or tomorrow, but eventually it will. The question is how soon will it go away. For all of the complaints regarding Dominion SOV, it was hugely successful. People have turned to the forums (myself included) because we enjoy the game, unsubbing or "not logging on" should be a last resort.
Orob Ninebands wrote:Counter-Point:
I have heard many, many, many people express their approval of the new Sov mechanics. Not everyone thinks it is bad. Remember, we mostly only hear from the upset people in this game.
True, GÇ£upset peopleGÇ¥ are most likely to fill out surveys or provide feedback (complain). While I am sure "not everyone thinks it is bad", judging by the threadnaught this has turned into, the dwindling subs/actives, etc. I would say not enough people think it is a good idea or find it an enjoyable way to play.
o7 DeeeBo
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Terminal Insanity
Pwn 'N Play SpaceMonkey's Alliance
824
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Posted - 2015.12.13 15:32:25 -
[629] - Quote
CCP: put a player alt into Imperium and come join us for our entosis fleets, see the joy you bring us firsthand.
"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
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Seraph IX Basarab
Angry Dragons Psychotic Tendencies.
748
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Posted - 2016.01.09 01:09:30 -
[630] - Quote
I mean if people go in and try to entosis adm6 systems...you're doing it wrong.
House of Black and White
An ingame channel dedicated to more interesting ways to play
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