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Jenshae Chiroptera
2153
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Posted - 2015.08.01 17:27:44 -
[1] - Quote
Of all the ship changes through the years, it is Cyclones that bother me the most. They gave it an extra low slot, which does help a great deal but in the process made it into a missle boat.
Why not both?
There is the key classic example: -> Cyclone = shield + missiles or -> Hurricane = armour + projectiles
(Yeah, yeah, I know about shield canes and fly them myself but they really need to be backed up by logistics to be effective).
Can, we improve the Minmatar ships so that they are more versatile?
Examples
Cyclone 5 turrets hardpoints + 5 missile hardpoints 5% Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile Launcher rate of fire and 5% Medium Projectile Turret damage / rate of fire.
It only has 7 high slots, so you are going to go for either projectiles or missiles due to the rest of the fit with tracking, damage, etc. Hurricane is still a better gun ship because it has 6 hard points and more low slots for damage and tracking.
Hurricane 6 hardpoints for both missiles and turrets 5% Medium Projectile Turret damage / rate of fire and 5% Heavy and Assault Missile damage.
This gives it a bit more alpha and less damage per second per launcher than the cyclone. Again, people will stack either 6 of one or the other.
This would then open up
Cyclone = shield + missiles or projectiles Hurricane = armour (shield) + missiles or projectiles.
Far more versatility. Now as to those cruisers *shudders* Not sure where to begin to make any of them really viable and newbie friendly for PVE.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
There are other ways to fix Null Sec stagnation and Fozzie SOV is the wrong approach.
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Lu Ziffer
Jelly Baby Corporation Fidelas Constans
35
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Posted - 2015.08.01 17:38:02 -
[2] - Quote
Reality check your asking for more versatility in the most versatile race for very versatile T1 ships. |
Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
1737
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Posted - 2015.08.01 17:47:35 -
[3] - Quote
Why do (all) ships need to be newbie friendly? Being a new player is the shorted period of your game time, a couple of weeks maybe. What about the months and years after that?
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
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HiddenPorpoise
Expendable Miscreants
385
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Posted - 2015.08.01 20:28:10 -
[4] - Quote
Why do you want the cyclone nerfed? |
Catherine Laartii
Crimson Serpent Academy Heiian Conglomerate
594
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Posted - 2015.08.01 21:08:45 -
[5] - Quote
I think a FAR better bonus allocation would be giving the cyclone 6 unbonused turrets, and keeping the current bonuses intact. It would do less dps than the cane certainly, but would be acceptable. Another missile slot would be fine too i think. |
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3661
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Posted - 2015.08.01 23:58:12 -
[6] - Quote
What, so roll back all the buffs we've had over the years, just to go back to the old split weapon loadouts everyone hated?
Just fly republic fleet ships, those still have the dumb split weapons. |
Devasha Detrasha
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2015.08.02 01:16:32 -
[7] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:What, so roll back all the buffs we've had over the years, just to go back to the old split weapon loadouts everyone hated?
Just fly republic fleet ships, those still have the dumb split weapons.
This
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2072
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Posted - 2015.08.02 01:26:05 -
[8] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote:I think a FAR better bonus allocation would be giving the cyclone 6 unbonused turrets, and keeping the current bonuses intact. It would do less dps than the cane certainly, but would be acceptable. Another missile slot would be fine too i think.
Can you name 1 good reason to want turrets on a missile bonused ship if you also leave the bonus to missile and shield boosting?
Just start with one good reason really. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
2154
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Posted - 2015.08.02 03:34:24 -
[9] - Quote
HiddenPorpoise wrote:Why do you want the cyclone nerfed? It would be exactly the same missile boat OR it could be a projectile boat.
What nerf? People having a choice on weapon types is a nerf now?
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
There are other ways to fix Null Sec stagnation and Fozzie SOV is the wrong approach.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1459
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Posted - 2015.08.02 03:44:34 -
[10] - Quote
The Cyclone and Hurricane would have to give up the other bonus in order to get a new bonus. Giving up the Shield Boost Bonus or Rate of Fire bonus in order to have a bonus to another weapon system is just not good. CCP is not likely to give you a "free" third bonus on a T1 ship.
As far as BC's go, the Cyclone and Hurricane are doing okay - taking into account that BC's as a whole have been gutted. Your change makes them straight up worse.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
2154
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Posted - 2015.08.02 03:48:39 -
[11] - Quote
This thread clearly states that splitting weapon types is a stupid thing to do. So you are either gimping your fit or you are not using one of the hull bonuses. Which means that you have not stacked hull bonuses.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
There are other ways to fix Null Sec stagnation and Fozzie SOV is the wrong approach.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1460
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Posted - 2015.08.02 10:58:35 -
[12] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:This thread clearly states that splitting weapon types is a stupid thing to do. So you are either gimping your fit or you are not using one of the hull bonuses. Which means that you have not stacked hull bonuses.
Right, you are wasting one of the two bonuses to the hull. T1 ships get two hull bonuses. Normally, a good fit finds a way to make use of both hull bonuses. For example, the Cyclone currently has a bonus to Shield Boosters and a bonus to missiles. It makes sense to fit it with an active shield tank and missiles.
What you are asking for is to have a bonus to projectile weapons and missiles. Since, as you point out, splitting weapon types is a stupid thing to do, at most the Cyclone would be using only one bonus at a time (either the missile bonus or the projectile weapon bonus). If I fit projectile weapons, the missile weapon bonus is wasted. And vice versa. Thus, in effect, you are nerfing the Cyclone by making it have only one useful hull bonus.
You seem to think that CCP would buff the Cyclone to the point that it got three hull bonuses - but that is not how they usually work. You almost certainly will not get a Cyclone that has a bonus to Shield Boosters, a bonus to missiles, and a bonus to projectiles.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
117
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Posted - 2015.08.02 11:06:46 -
[13] - Quote
CCP made it clear that only navy variants will get the split weapon bonuses, so even if this was a good idea (which it is not) it is not going to happen. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
2155
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Posted - 2015.08.02 11:49:42 -
[14] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:CCP made it clear that only navy variants will get the split weapon bonuses, so even if this was a good idea (which it is not) it is not going to happen. Then, where is the Faction Cyclone? (The price is a bit steep for where Cyclones fit)
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
There are other ways to fix Null Sec stagnation and Fozzie SOV is the wrong approach.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
2156
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Posted - 2015.08.03 06:30:13 -
[15] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:This thread clearly states that splitting weapon types is a stupid thing to do. So you are either gimping your fit or you are not using one of the hull bonuses. Which means that you have not stacked hull bonuses. You seem to think that CCP would buff the Cyclone to the point that it got three hull bonuses - but that is not how they usually work. You almost certainly will not get a Cyclone that has a bonus to Shield Boosters, a bonus to missiles, and a bonus to projectiles. And. Or.
Hull says three bonuses. Effectively two at a time.
T3s can equip for either launchers or turrets. Not a feature people are gnashing their teeth over.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
There are other ways to fix Null Sec stagnation and Fozzie SOV is the wrong approach.
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Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery Prolapse.
2647
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Posted - 2015.08.03 06:47:27 -
[16] - Quote
The only problem with the Cyclone right now is actually the state of shield boosting, namely that in order to do any active shield tank decently, you need 2 more slots and/or pills and/or boosts or all three. For example, I use an active tanked lachesis with deadspace boosters, it's a truck. it not only does more DPS than a Cyclone, gets double the scram range, but it also tanks harder, for longer.
The Cyclone would realistically need Asterte/Gank Brutix levels of gank in order to do well as an ASB tank. It lacks this DPS because of missiles, and has received absolutely nothing from the MGE and MGCs recently addded during Aegis. This is just a fact - you can out-gank a Cyclone and out-tank a Cyclone, using a shield Brutix.
it's not a great ship, but for cheapsies, it's not too bad.
I used to love the old split weapon Cyclone. 69K EHP and 724 DPS buffer-gank fit. You could take out nighthawks mano a mano. However, short of going right back to 2010, your ideas are just dumb, as FT Diomedes pointed out.
If you find the Cyclone lacklustre it's because ASBs are terrible for sustained engagements, which the Cyclone needs because it can't gank it's way through enemies. It also sucks as a buffer boat because of lack of said buffer, realistically, coupled with just not quite enough fitting to make MWD and scram work well. And, as above, even deadspace fit Cyclones lack the mids to really pull off cap injector, prop, tackle and shield booster. Plus, as said before, lacking gankiness.
The Cane is just a terrible ship at the moment due to projectiles, not the ship's EHP, speed or gankiness. Allowing split weapons isn't going to addess any of it's failings.
Bzzzt, you're wrong.
Doctor Prince Field Marshall of Prolapse. Alliance and Grand Sasquatch of Bob
We take Batphones. Contact us at Hola Batmanuel - Free call 1800-UR-MOMMA
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Jenshae Chiroptera
2156
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Posted - 2015.08.03 07:00:29 -
[17] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:... It lacks this DPS because of missiles, .... I used to love the old split weapon Cyclone. .... Bzzzt, you're wrong. Well at least you understand my motives.
Damage Control II Large Ancillary Shield Booster x2 Adaptive Invulnerability Field II x2 Prop mod
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Medium Core Defense Operational Solidifier I
This is not a bad tank for small gangs. A 6th mid slot would allow for a shield extender or a boost amplifier.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
There are other ways to fix Null Sec stagnation and Fozzie SOV is the wrong approach.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1475
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Posted - 2015.08.03 07:47:56 -
[18] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:I use an active tanked lachesis with deadspace boosters, it's a truck. it not only does more DPS than a Cyclone, gets double the scram range, but it also tanks harder, for longer.
I'm going to have to check that out. Sounds like fun.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2539
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Posted - 2015.08.03 08:21:00 -
[19] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:CCP is not likely to give you a "free" third bonus on a T1 ship. Mathematically speaking, it's 2.16666666667 skill bonuses.
Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom
Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm
The Succubus looks meaner
But the Revenant cleaner
Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
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elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
779
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Posted - 2015.08.03 08:46:01 -
[20] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:...The Cyclone would realistically need Asterte/Gank Brutix levels of gank in order to do well as an ASB tank. It lacks this DPS because of missiles, and has received absolutely nothing from the MGE and MGCs recently addded during Aegis. This is just a fact - you can out-gank a Cyclone and out-tank a Cyclone, using a shield Brutix. ..
Wouldn't that be the claymore?
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
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Jenshae Chiroptera
2160
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Posted - 2015.08.03 12:59:07 -
[21] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Trinkets friend wrote:...The Cyclone would realistically need Asterte/Gank Brutix levels of gank in order to do well as an ASB tank. It lacks this DPS because of missiles, and has received absolutely nothing from the MGE and MGCs recently addded during Aegis. This is just a fact - you can out-gank a Cyclone and out-tank a Cyclone, using a shield Brutix. .. Wouldn't that be the claymore? Brutix is T1, Claymore is command ship (I hesitate to call it T2 because I feel it is a different type from the T2 frigates and cruisers and I would like to see battle cruisers fleshed out with those role specific T2 versions in the future.)
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
There are other ways to fix Null Sec stagnation and Fozzie SOV is the wrong approach.
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2072
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Posted - 2015.08.03 14:05:08 -
[22] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:...Just start with one good reason really. One example: Shield Rupture fleet / gang that are using artilleries for alpha strike. Fleet commander wants to be tankier to reduce headshots without putting the cost of a command ship on the field.
Then he can use smaller guns to get some PG back and use that to up his tank. No need to swap to a different weapon system. |
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
1231
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Posted - 2015.08.03 14:21:19 -
[23] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:elitatwo wrote:Wouldn't that be the claymore? Brutix is T1, Claymore is command ship (I hesitate to call it T2 because I feel it is a different type from the T2 frigates and cruisers and I would like to see battle cruisers fleshed out with those role specific T2 versions in the future.)
Could you be any more vague? What do you mean with *those roles*? They only got one, the role of *very tanky in your face ship that amplifies friendly ships' capabilities*, many people pass on the second the way they don't use an abaddon or rokh for its' guns. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
2161
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Posted - 2015.08.03 17:28:12 -
[24] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:... They only got one, the role of *very tanky, rather expensive, very high skill requirement, in your face ship that amplifies friendly ships' capabilities*,.... FTFY I look am currently looking at either training for carriers or command ships and weigh them equally based on cost, utility and training time.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
There are other ways to fix Null Sec stagnation and Fozzie SOV is the wrong approach.
|
Jenshae Chiroptera
2163
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Posted - 2015.08.04 21:48:33 -
[25] - Quote
What if you could switch modes? Similar to the T3Ds you can change the hull stats but in the case of some of these T1s you can only change them in a station.
Then people don't have to get worked up about how many bonuses they have at one time that are not being used and such.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
There are other ways to fix Null Sec stagnation and Fozzie SOV is the wrong approach.
|
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery Prolapse.
2649
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Posted - 2015.08.05 01:25:32 -
[26] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Trinkets friend wrote:...The Cyclone would realistically need Asterte/Gank Brutix levels of gank in order to do well as an ASB tank. It lacks this DPS because of missiles, and has received absolutely nothing from the MGE and MGCs recently addded during Aegis. This is just a fact - you can out-gank a Cyclone and out-tank a Cyclone, using a shield Brutix. .. Wouldn't that be the claymore?
I can't believe it's not butter, either.
Doctor Prince Field Marshall of Prolapse. Alliance and Grand Sasquatch of Bob
We take Batphones. Contact us at Hola Batmanuel - Free call 1800-UR-MOMMA
~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
71
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Posted - 2015.08.05 10:53:31 -
[27] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Lloyd Roses wrote:... They only got one, the role of *very tanky, rather expensive, very high skill requirement, in your face ship that amplifies friendly ships' capabilities*,.... FTFY I look am currently looking at either training for carriers or command ships and weigh them equally based on cost, utility and training time.
Depends on what CCP is planning to do with CS. Like are they gonna leave them as is (I hope not), give them another useful role bonus or Introduce another line of T2 BCs ~ Heavy Assault Battlecruisers. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
2164
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Posted - 2015.08.05 10:58:40 -
[28] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Depends on what CCP is planning to do ... Thing is, the Cyclone is pretty close to what I want for some fun roams, if it had a bit more tank, that would be nice but the projectiles would be perfect.
I would love a full set of T2 battle cruisers, logi (need X-L RRs), assault, (tackle and recon could come later)
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
There are other ways to fix Null Sec stagnation and Fozzie SOV is the wrong approach.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
2295
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Posted - 2015.08.31 02:19:28 -
[29] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:What if you could switch modes? Similar to the T3Ds you can change the hull stats but in the case of some of these T1s you can only change them in a station.
Then people don't have to get worked up about how many bonuses they have at one time that are not being used and such. I like how this got no replies.
Added a section to OP about the guns.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
There are other ways to fix Null Sec stagnation and Fozzie SOV is the wrong approach.
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Galphii
Oberon Incorporated Get Off My Lawn
338
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Posted - 2015.08.31 03:38:06 -
[30] - Quote
I've always liked the idea of adding turret and missile slots, not to mention turret and missile damage bonuses to some ships just to provide more flexibility with fitting, and make it harder for pilots to figure out how a certain ship class is going to be fitted. This would benefit caldari ships as well as minmatar.
"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
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