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Omniwing
Omnicorps
20
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Posted - 2011.12.08 17:17:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP likes EVE to be the ultimate SF simulator. Everyone who has seen SF shows knows how space battles are portrayed (even in CCPs own video's): ships weaving in and out of enemy lines, and multiple small battles between individual ships going on amidst the greater carnage.
Basically this. CCP advertises huge fleet battles with trailers that depict people swinging in and out of enemy lines, in a tiny frigate, explosions going off all around it, while they have an interesting and dynamic battle with another ship type, chaos, smart thinking players using creative use of their dynamic fleets to counter each of the ship types of the other fleet, etc etc etc, and it just isn't that way at all. My last huge fleet battle (linked below) was 70 maelstroms, all you did was 'target this guy...ok fire...now target this guy...ok fire...' On top of that, all the ships clipped into each other, so instead of looking like a cool Sci Fi movie or firing line, it just looked like an orgy of rusty nails and broken solar panels. It didn't even look cool. When I tried to get my friends to watch my 'huge fleet battle' they literally laughed at me because of how boring it was.
TL;DR: What CCP claims/wants 'huge' fleet battles to be like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rQ9_3DckAQ What they are actually like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pMhciDWrWg |
Krios Ahzek
Juvenis Iratus
252
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Posted - 2011.12.08 17:21:00 -
[2] - Quote
Then hire a guy to record your battle from dramatic angles in a covops frigate and add trailer music to it before posting on youtube. The only warrior on this battlefield who isn't an alt.
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Omniwing
Omnicorps
20
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Posted - 2011.12.08 17:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
Please don't derail the thread, previous.
The type of battle that is being advertised is dynamic. Even in one fleet, there are multiple roles to be filled, against multiple enemy fleet roles. These subgroups in each fleet effect each other as they attempt to complete their tasks. There are greater opportunities for individual or sub-group leader creativity. These are the type of things that are lacking in real EvE. This is a request to CCP for what kind of gameplay we(or at least I) want. |
Krios Ahzek
Juvenis Iratus
252
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Posted - 2011.12.08 17:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
Also sports are quite boring compared to movies about sports.
Oh I already hear you screaming ''But no, the superbowl is as exciting as those movies about underdog football teams!''
Yeah, because you know the sport, what's at stake and what it implies.
It's exactly the same thing for EVE.
The only warrior on this battlefield who isn't an alt.
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Omniwing
Omnicorps
20
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Posted - 2011.12.08 17:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
@previous
You're right, its fine. Large fleet fights in EvE are dynamic, engaging, and many pilots can show individual creativity in their piloting or tactics to ensure victory.
/end sarcasm
I typically don't like to use the disrespectful tone of sarcasm. |
Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
491
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Posted - 2011.12.08 17:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
Omniwing wrote:Please don't derail the thread, previous.
The type of battle that is being advertised is dynamic. Even in one fleet, there are multiple roles to be filled, against multiple enemy fleet roles. These subgroups in each fleet effect each other as they attempt to complete their tasks. There are greater opportunities for individual or sub-group leader creativity. These are the type of things that are lacking in real EvE. This is a request to CCP for what kind of gameplay we(or at least I) want.
so you actually want CCP to somehow control how FCs compose their fleets?
sorry to disappoint bub, but its up to the player to utilize roles in fleet comp. roles do exist and are used, but understand the limits imposed in actual battle and a staged, scripted and choreographed battle for the cameras.
but if you want frigs orbiting stuff at 5m while your drake blob sits at 40 lobbing missiles, you'll have to speak to your FC
The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |
Daedalus Arcova
Havoc Violence and Chaos
227
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Posted - 2011.12.08 17:31:00 -
[7] - Quote
If you want more diverse fleets, create them.
Abaddon/Drake/Maelstrom/whatever blobs are ******* boring, and actually quite limited in their capabilities. They play right into the fallacy of rock paper scissors, instead of trying to remake the rules.
Hint: rock AND paper AND scissors will always beat rock OR paper OR scissors. |
Omniwing
Omnicorps
20
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Posted - 2011.12.08 17:32:00 -
[8] - Quote
Well forgive me for wanting my fleet battles to be as sensational as a movie and not as boring as a sports game.... Geez...That's kind of the point of video games.
This is a request to CCP to do what they do, which is create new game mechanics and modify existing ones, to do just that. |
Serene Repose
Perkone Caldari State
140
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Posted - 2011.12.08 17:35:00 -
[9] - Quote
I like the idea of the independent recorder/journalist. If there were a way to have a solid neut on scene to shoot vid for both sides, that would be a fabulous take-away and keepsake for all concerned. The major problem would be DON'T SHOOT ME! I'M ONLY THE PHOTOGRAPHER! (Sorry Elton.)
If those directing these epic battles were insightful and understood value, they'd find a way to make it happen. Think of what a fabulous job that would be! I was an EVE war correspondent. I could almost volunteer!
Smokestack lightnin' shinin' just like gold. |
Cipher Jones
137
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Posted - 2011.12.08 17:38:00 -
[10] - Quote
Omniwing wrote:Please don't derail the thread, previous.
The type of battle that is being advertised is dynamic. Even in one fleet, there are multiple roles to be filled, against multiple enemy fleet roles. These subgroups in each fleet effect each other as they attempt to complete their tasks. There are greater opportunities for individual or sub-group leader creativity. These are the type of things that are lacking in real EvE. This is a request to CCP for what kind of gameplay we(or at least I) want.
I fly in a 4 man gang and its dynamic as hell. You are doing it wrong TBH.
If I watched it afterwards from all sorts of perspectives with the highlights only, it would look just like a trailer. When I play it it doesn't. Like any other game.
See what happens when fat neckbeards try to ride little ponies? The ponies die. |
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Lady Spank
GET OUT NASTY FACE
334
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Posted - 2011.12.08 17:39:00 -
[11] - Quote
I had the custom title "War Photographer" for a while. What I was actually doing was looting. (a¦á_a¦â) ~ Get Out, Nasty Face ~ (a¦á_a¦â)
Signature edited. Navigator. |
Krios Ahzek
Juvenis Iratus
255
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Posted - 2011.12.08 17:40:00 -
[12] - Quote
Omniwing wrote:@previous
You're right, its fine. Large fleet fights in EvE are dynamic, engaging, and many pilots can show individual creativity in their piloting or tactics to ensure victory.
/end sarcasm
I typically don't like to use the disrespectful tone of sarcasm.
I have no idea, I've never even been near a fleet fight.
But I do like being right and disrespecting you.
Your argument is that battles in Eve look nothing like battles in the movies. I'm saying that any battle can look like the battles in the movies if properly shot, dramatized and soundtrack'd.
If you're not okay with uniform fleet doctrines, invent another one that works better. The truth is that in a game like EVE, player skill has a very small effect compared to twitch shooters, and that effect is mitigated in huge fleets by the sheer number of ships present. The only warrior on this battlefield who isn't an alt.
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Torin Corax
Zebra Corp BricK sQuAD.
0
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Posted - 2011.12.08 17:40:00 -
[13] - Quote
OK non-troll reply:
In the videos they are ignoring basic Eve mechanics for more "realism". As you can see in the films, crashing your ship into another ship at high speed = death. They also portray line of sight firing.
Both of these mechanics would improve gameplay in my opinion, but they would need to go hand-in-hand. Unfortunately as I understand it, line of sight in particular would add massive load to the servers and is unlikely to happen in the near future.
As for "bumping" actually being fatal given the mass and speeds of the ships involved, I'd say we would need a far better control system in place before this could be implemented in any reasonable fashion. Some people may have excellent manual piloting skills, but most would crash and burn almost every time they undocked (probably at the undock point in fact...Jita 4-4 with fatal collisions would be hilarious). |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
1980
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Posted - 2011.12.08 17:41:00 -
[14] - Quote
Omniwing wrote:Can I get some (non troll) replies pulz! That depends: do you intend to keep on posting or not?
The replies you've been given are not trolls; your answers to them are bordering on it, though.
What you're asking for already exists and already happens GÇö just go out and do it. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Krios Ahzek
Juvenis Iratus
255
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 17:43:00 -
[15] - Quote
Also, hire some professional voice actors to speak on teamspeak instead of your corp mates. The only warrior on this battlefield who isn't an alt.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
232
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Posted - 2011.12.08 17:43:00 -
[16] - Quote
PVP is just fine. It might not be much to look at but try being in those fights - then it feels like the trailers.
P.S. Trailers are also obviously the highlights. No one details all the things that people do in a war such as how the supply line was put together and which administration team dealt with which squad and so forth. History and trailers are made up of the interesting things. Ideas and stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. |
Krios Ahzek
Juvenis Iratus
255
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Posted - 2011.12.08 17:49:00 -
[17] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:PVP is just fine. It might not be much to look at but try being in those fights - then it feels like the trailers.
Well if those guys who post AWZUM FAIGHTS on youtube would sometimes zoom in and turn off the HUD instead of making us look at 360p resolution colored space dots, it might feel more like the trailers. The only warrior on this battlefield who isn't an alt.
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Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
491
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Posted - 2011.12.08 18:08:00 -
[18] - Quote
not to mention that CCP also has the ability to fix and add things to the finished video or even to create a battle entirely from scratch in the editor
since they have the 3d assets its fairly simple (if someone has the time) to export simple animations from the 3d development suite on a solid keyable background and just build the entire thing on a background screen shot
of course its much easier to film it live, but the idea is you can do pretty much anything in post with the right tools (FCP or Adobe CS) to make it look even better The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |
Solstice Project
Cult of Personality
268
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 18:14:00 -
[19] - Quote
I'll get flamed for this. ^^
It's not the fights that make are boring per se, it's the FCs.
Want more fun ? Remove FCs and teach pilots how to think in a collective. Will never happen. For the same reason why people need FCs.
Too bad. Now flame away, i already know plenty of stupid responses that'll come. :) Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
491
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 18:18:00 -
[20] - Quote
Solstice Project wrote: I'll get flamed for this. ^^
It's not the fights that make are boring per se, it's the FCs.
Want more fun ? Remove FCs and teach pilots how to think in a collective. Will never happen. For the same reason why people need FCs.
Too bad. Now flame away, i already know plenty of stupid responses that'll come. :)
BUT FLEETZ NEED SCAPEGOATS!
The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |
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Solstice Project
Cult of Personality
268
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Posted - 2011.12.08 18:19:00 -
[21] - Quote
Morganta wrote:BUT FLEETZ NEED SCAPEGOATS! Thanks. <3 :) Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Astrid Stjerna
Teraa Matar
124
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 18:29:00 -
[22] - Quote
Omniwing wrote:CCP likes EVE to be the ultimate SF simulator. Everyone who has seen SF shows knows how space battles are portrayed (even in CCPs own video's): ships weaving in and out of enemy lines, and multiple small battles between individual ships going on amidst the greater carnage.
Trailers are designed to grab attention; that's why a movie like Die Hard shows off the cool explosions, racing cars and hot girls (and guys). There are plenty of cool fleet moments in EVE -- you just have to create them. |
Aiwha
101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda
24
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Posted - 2011.12.08 18:32:00 -
[23] - Quote
AHAC fleets. Regards,
LCpl. Aiwha |
Large Collidable Object
morons.
664
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 18:39:00 -
[24] - Quote
Stacking penalties on damage would sort of help creating smaller skirmishes within fleet fights, since it would encourage taking on enemies as squads.
As as long as as the most efficient way to kill stuff is 200 morons ctrl-clicking their fleet broadcasts at the same time and hitting F1 like brainless robots, blobwarfare will stay as idiotic as it currently is. morons- sting like a butterfly and-ápost like a bee. |
Krios Ahzek
Juvenis Iratus
257
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 18:50:00 -
[25] - Quote
Large Collidable Object wrote:Stacking penalties on damage would sort of help creating smaller skirmishes within fleet fights, since it would encourage taking on enemies as squads.
As as long as as the most efficient way to kill stuff is 200 morons ctrl-clicking their fleet broadcasts at the same time and hitting F1 like brainless robots, blobwarfare will stay as idiotic as it currently is.
And why should the bullets beyond the first be less effective when 200 of them are hitting you in the face at the same time? But there's one they fear. They are told he is forahkiin, FORUMBORN~ |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
328
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 18:53:00 -
[26] - Quote
Stacking penalties on damage would just make remote rep even more ridiculous. Nothing would die in larger battles. This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
Niskowitz
Quantum Cats Syndicate
1
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Posted - 2011.12.08 19:16:00 -
[27] - Quote
Easy (ish) fix: Allow the client to record the public data the server sends -- ship positions / vectors, effects toggling, explosions, etc. Then allow the client to offline-replay that data with a no-clip invisible observer that can move around the grid and observe and fraps _that_ rather then the live battle.
That way all the best camera angles, action shots, maneuvers and explosions can be on the resulting YouTube video without having a pilot who has to try to fly around in a furball and record in real time. |
Petrus Blackshell
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
68
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 19:19:00 -
[28] - Quote
Niskowitz wrote:Easy (ish) fix: Allow the client to record the public data the server sends -- ship positions / vectors, guns toggling, explosions, etc. Then allow the client to offline-replay that data with a no-clip invisible observer that can move around the grid and observe and fraps _that_ rather then the live battle.
That way all the best camera angles, action shots, maneuvers and explosions can be on the resulting YouTube video without having a pilot who has to try to fly around in a furball and record in real time.
This, tbh. Eve battles are dynamic enough as is, especially with all the new graphics enhancements. Trouble is, when you play it doesn't look that way, and it's nigh-impossible to record "exciting" shots of battles.
However, I think people have been asking for this for years now, so don't hold your breath. |
Indeterminacy
THORN Syndicate BricK sQuAD.
22
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Posted - 2011.12.08 19:22:00 -
[29] - Quote
I am shocked, shocked to realize that promotional content may not reflect my actual experience. |
Jack Traynor
One More Corp
6
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Posted - 2011.12.08 19:31:00 -
[30] - Quote
"... orgy of rusted nails..."
Heh... That's pretty good. |
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Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
551
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Posted - 2011.12.08 19:34:00 -
[31] - Quote
Cant control what players do. You can prod them but they may wind up kicking you instead.
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Large Collidable Object
morons.
664
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Posted - 2011.12.08 19:43:00 -
[32] - Quote
Krios Ahzek wrote:Large Collidable Object wrote:Stacking penalties on damage would sort of help creating smaller skirmishes within fleet fights, since it would encourage taking on enemies as squads.
As as long as as the most efficient way to kill stuff is 200 morons ctrl-clicking their fleet broadcasts at the same time and hitting F1 like brainless robots, blobwarfare will stay as idiotic as it currently is. And why should the bullets beyond the first be less effective when 200 of them are hitting you in the face at the same time?
Because the first couple hitting me would shake my ship, throw it around and blur my signature. Moreover, missiles, hybrid charges and projectiles would collide with each other and get caught in their own explosions whilst lasers crossing would cause interference.
Also Liquid space mechanics, nanobots, jovians and gameplay. morons- sting like a butterfly and-ápost like a bee. |
Petrus Blackshell
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
68
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 19:47:00 -
[33] - Quote
Large Collidable Object wrote:Stacking penalties on damage would sort of help creating smaller skirmishes within fleet fights, since it would encourage taking on enemies as squads.
As as long as as the most efficient way to kill stuff is 200 morons ctrl-clicking their fleet broadcasts at the same time and hitting F1 like brainless robots, blobwarfare will stay as idiotic as it currently is.
A "maximum damage per second" would also possibly horribly break active tanks and RR. Such a change would result in stupid unkillable fleet setups.
This also eliminates the concept of alpha, which is an essential style of play. |
arcca jeth
Dark Alliance Dark Empire Alliance
32
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Posted - 2011.12.08 20:37:00 -
[34] - Quote
this is pretty much the same discussion as using WASD controls to fly frigates. well not the same but close. Some people would say that the server couldn't handle it, but i think that is just BS. I only support this option for frigates. You could actually have some good dogfights then. The only time it would get annoying is when chasing down drones. It could be an option i guess for when flying in frigates, as in, can turn it off or turn it on. At least that way it might have a bit more of that exciting feel. there are still circumstances where I would rather just orbit a target though so as long as WASD was only and option for frigate hulls i'd be cool with it.
when you really put more thought into trying to imagine how shooting would work and activating modules, you would still have to clicky clicky to activate gun cycles and such. as much as I would like to see it, it really would take a lot of work redesigning how that class of ship would be flown. there is way too much opposition out there for it though and it just doesn't seem feasible.
irrelevant though if your flying 70 Maelstroms in a fleet without frigates.....and why wouldnt someone through a squad of frigates at at Maelstrom fight anyway, soo much ewar could be delegated to those ships that could be used to boost damage or other capabilities that the BSs are fitting. |
Krios Ahzek
Juvenis Iratus
261
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 20:41:00 -
[35] - Quote
Large Collidable Object wrote:Krios Ahzek wrote:Large Collidable Object wrote:Stacking penalties on damage would sort of help creating smaller skirmishes within fleet fights, since it would encourage taking on enemies as squads.
As as long as as the most efficient way to kill stuff is 200 morons ctrl-clicking their fleet broadcasts at the same time and hitting F1 like brainless robots, blobwarfare will stay as idiotic as it currently is. And why should the bullets beyond the first be less effective when 200 of them are hitting you in the face at the same time? Because the first couple hitting me would shake my ship, throw it around and blur my signature. Moreover, missiles, hybrid charges and projectiles would collide with each other and get caught in their own explosions whilst lasers crossing would cause interference.
The result would still be your ship, vaporized. Momentum and energy don't just go away and laser interference doesn't work the way you think it does. But there's one they fear. They are told he is forahkiin, FORUMBORN~ |
Reilly Duvolle
Hydra Squadron
125
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 20:53:00 -
[36] - Quote
I'll go out on a limb here and disagree with most of you
I think I get what the OP is asking for, namely that EVE battles lack diversity - at least when large fleets clash togehter. And its true. You see "hellcat fleets" or "alpha fleets", or "drake fleets" etc - where a single FC on both sides usually call the shots and everybody else follows orders (ideally) and shoots the primary. It IS a bit more to it than this of course, but on the whole, large fleet fights in EVE is incredibly centralized.
Now there are TWO main reasons for this:
1) Firstly - the absolute need for concentration of force. In 20-21st century naval engagments, a single missile or torpedo will sink all but the largest of warships. In EVE, you need maybe hundreds of hits (a single drake salvo is 7 missiles) before a spaceship finally blows up. EVE fleetfights thus resembles more Napoleonic battles than modern naval battles when it comes to the application of damage - i.e you need large numbers of similar ships to concentrate on each target to take it down reasonably quickly. Fail to do this, and the enemy will just dismantle you.
2) Secondly - the near total lack of command and control tools. In EVE, command and control tools available for its commanders are very primitive and does not lend itself to distributed command models where assigning tasks to individual wings or squads in real time is practical. And because of point 1) it is not desirable either.
Now, if you want to see large fleet fights where fleets are composed of different types of (specialized) ships performing certain functions for the fleet as a whole (like you see in for example Babylon 5), the command and control tools will need a revamp. And even more imortantly, the relationship between damageoutput and tank would need to change drastically. When advents in weaponry makes hardtanking impractical (the advent of the crossbow made armoured knights obsolete, gunpowder slowly made fortesses impractical and modern precision weapons is making it harder and harder for the tank to survive on the 21st century battlefield), you will typically see greater reliance on mobility, deception (camouflage) and dispersion in the evolving tactics. So instead of surviving the hit - avoid beeing hit in the first place.
In EVE this would mean a much higher reliance on avoidance tanking - that is EWAR, cloaking, range, speed, signaturetanking etc etc, and a corresponding much lower reliance on buffer- or repairtanking.
TL;DR a "dynamic" battlefield filled with different classes of ships performing specialized functions where subcommanders exercise initiative and make individual descisions based on a common understanding of the situation - would require a revamp of the entire EVE combat system. |
Large Collidable Object
morons.
664
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 22:20:00 -
[37] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
A "maximum damage per second" would also possibly horribly break active tanks and RR. Such a change would result in stupid unkillable fleet setups.
This also eliminates the concept of alpha, which is an essential style of play.
Who's talking about hardcaps? Just some stacking based on sigradius, so it would be far more efficient to split primaries up for individual squads under most circumstances. Of course this would need some balancing with active tanks and a similar stacking penalty on RR.
As for the concept of alpha: Who cares if that 'style of play' changes? I rarely hear anyone moaning about how it has become impossible to run multiple propulsion mods on the same ship at once anymore.
Things change, and concerning current fleet mechanics, I'd love to see them changed .
Especially alpha, which is no fun for anyone involved - neither for the people following primaries, because anyone exceeding the intelligence of a simple script would be insulted to do it nor for the guy sitting in his ship and instantly getting blown up, regardless of how much personal skill he has. It stands for everything that's terrible about eves fleet warfare. Small-gang warfare and using ones knowledge about things like transversal, signature radii and ships capabilities to gain an edge is what makes eve pvp interesting. Sitting in a blob following primaries is plainly dumb and boring.
Krios Ahzek wrote:
The result would still be your ship, vaporized. Momentum and energy don't just go away and laser interference doesn't work the way you think it does.
I *think* laser interference in liquid space works the same way as lasers making *pewpew*-noises in eve... morons- sting like a butterfly and-ápost like a bee. |
Trin Xi
Hedion University Amarr Empire
7
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Posted - 2011.12.08 22:43:00 -
[38] - Quote
Personally I'd like to see fleet fights where formation and motion make a difference, as in the Lost Fleet books. That'd be difficult with space submarines, though. |
Krios Ahzek
Juvenis Iratus
268
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 22:57:00 -
[39] - Quote
Large Collidable Object wrote:Krios Ahzek wrote:
The result would still be your ship, vaporized. Momentum and energy don't just go away and laser interference doesn't work the way you think it does.
I *think* laser interference in liquid space works the same way as lasers making *pewpew*-noises in eve...
Lasers make pewpew noises because your ship's computer simulates those noises before feeding them into your nervous system. The Eve devs actually thought about stuff like this.
Also the liquid space physics are due to wrap drives creating drag against space. But there's one they fear. They are told he is forahkiin, FORUMBORN~ |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
54
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Posted - 2011.12.08 23:05:00 -
[40] - Quote
Daedalus Arcova wrote:If you want more diverse fleets, create them.
Abaddon/Drake/Maelstrom/whatever blobs are ******* boring, and actually quite limited in their capabilities. They play right into the fallacy of rock paper scissors, instead of trying to remake the rules.
Hint: rock AND paper AND scissors will always beat rock OR paper OR scissors.
It gets interesting when you have rock paper AND scissors all on the grid at the same time. |
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