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ffs ccp, lock griefers out of missions.

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Author	Topic
Sales Merchant	Posted - 2006.12.07 13:56:00 - [781] Well look at it this way, at least pirates are actually being pirates now instead of being 200km gankbears. BUT...this is the wrong way to get mission runners into low sec, so basically mission runners have two choices, lag or death...hmmm no wonder this thread is 30 pages long!
d026 Herrscher der Zeit Jagdgeschwader The Pentagram	Posted - 2006.12.07 13:58:00 - [782] then lets just forbid people in noobcorps to commit acts of crime;)
Miri Tirzan Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.07 14:03:00 - [783] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 07/12/2006 13:09:06 Miri, if I jumped in to a deadspace mission, killed all the NPC's, and then killed the mission runner for looting my cans, and I did it for the ISK or loot, or wrecks, or whatever, then I am not griefing. If I do it with the sole intent of annoying the mission runner, then I am griefing. The OP asks for deadspace to be locked, completely safe from "griefers". However, his perception of griefplay is based on how he is affected, not the intent of the "griefer", and that is not a sound footing to support instancing in Eve. Game mechanics introduced to prevent "griefing" that also get in the way of a legitimate "bad guy" playstyle would punish both types of player, one unfairly, solely due to the perception of the victim. If someone feels that they have been griefed then they need to petition, not ask for the game to be changed. Now, personally I think that finding things is currently too easy, and that does need to be addressed. However I do not think that mission runners should be able to play a solo version of Eve within their own bubble of deadspace safety, and even asking for that harms Eve. Look at you Miri. You are probably one of the people in Eve I respect the most. You are an industrialist, but not a carebear. You have overcome the problems that Eve has thrown your way, and thrived on the challenge, and recovered from setbacks. Don't let these "my personal Eve" people tar you with their brush, you are better than that. Actually, I happen to agree with you for the most part. What I disagree with and you seem to concur is that the griefers, those that are not at war and do not go after mission runners for profit are wrong. At another level this breaks the mechanics of mission running. There should be no way to keep a mission runner from completing his mission other than killing him. The standing hits are too important and too big to just let anyone keep a MR from completing the mission. Personally, the dumbing down of Eve needs to end. In order to keep noobies happy they are removing the aspects of the game that made it outstanding. Eve is a skill game and not a SP game. Eve currently is moving to make it neither. The Dev's dont bother to think out or ask for input from the player base on the impact of changes. For proof of that I point to all the Kali development threads which were blown off. Personnally, I think this is another one of CCPs stealth nerfs to try and force people into 0.0 or low sec that went bad. svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
Sendraks TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.12.07 14:03:00 - [784] Originally by: Avon The OP asks for deadspace to be locked, completely safe from "griefers". Which you will note, most people in this thread have disagreed with and offered other solutions. Originally by: Avon However, his perception of griefplay is based on how he is affected, not the intent of the "griefer", and that is not a sound footing to support instancing in Eve. As your "intent" is not measurable or verifiable in anyway, it shouldn't play a factor in determining what is "griefing." Only your actions and the consequence of them should be taken into account by CCP. Originally by: Avon Game mechanics introduced to prevent "griefing" that also get in the way of a legitimate "bad guy" playstyle would punish both types of player, one unfairly, solely due to the perception of the victim. Agree the game needs to work both ways. Currently is doesn't for missions in high sec. Originally by: Avon If someone feels that they have been griefed then they need to petition, not ask for the game to be changed. Or ask for the game to be changed to thus reduce the size of the petition queue. If something is a problem that results in sufficient petitions and sufficient bannings, then the sensible thing to do is change the game so it doesn't happen. Originally by: Avon Don't let these "my personal Eve" people tar you with their brush, you are better than that. This news just in. A bloke who plays computer games thinks he's better than other people who play the same computer game, but for no verifiable reason.
DeckardIRL Gallente Bravehearts Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.07 14:10:00 - [785] This has to be one of the fastest growing threads ever.... but its one helluva whine.... and I am a vehement anti pirate. I normally mission w***e lvl4 missions in low sec when I am bored in 0.0. I JC'd to my mission system the other day and found the system full of pirates.. normally you get one or two... clearly the scanning enhancements have meant the piewats are benefitting and they are getting plenty of action... here they kill the missioners btw- FIRST and then the rats if they want.. an example... 5 piewats in local from same corp- I put alert went out in local. 10 minutes later piewats posted killmail for a Caldari Navy Raven... said thanks all and left the system... c'est la vie.... thats the game... piewats if they want to grief then that is their right, and ppl would know that I am totally anti pirate and have spoken many times on various issues regarding piewats. Missioning is NOT a CCP given right to protection making isk- its has to be a risk- from the NPCs and from Local... hell we lost a Moros to pirates that was doing a mission when the dread got stuck on an acceleration gate... So don't solo mission... and when they loot your cans shoot them- I am sure you ship is insured.... Deck _____________________________________________ Watchin' the Game.... Havin' a Bud.... I shoot better on Bud..... Eve Info- All you need to know
Laythun Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.07 14:13:00 - [786] Originally by: Roshan longshot Guess the only thing to do, is all mission runners cancel subscriptions, for one month (set long training skill) After one month of loss income, I think CCP will say "this should be fixed" So go ahead mission runners CANCEL your subscriptions, for one month. When you come back things will have changed. They cause lag and inflation. good riddance. CEI's own Undercover Brother It's great being Amarr, aint it?Ö
Ishana Minmatar The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.07 14:14:00 - [787] Edited by: Ishana on 07/12/2006 14:15:12 Originally by: Sendraks As your "intent" is not measurable or verifiable in anyway, it shouldn't play a factor in determining what is "griefing." Only your actions and the consequence of them should be taken into account by CCP. Jup you are right. And this is why CCP does allow people to mess up missions if they choose to. They don't care about the underlying intent, and they allow it. Quote: Agree the game needs to work both ways. Currently is doesn't for missions in high sec. I disagree. There are mechanics in play that work for the mission runner. I do agree that it is to easy to find missions with the current probing system though. Quote: Or ask for the game to be changed to thus reduce the size of the petition queue. If something is a problem that results in sufficient petitions and sufficient bannings, then the sensible thing to do is change the game so it doesn't happen. You seem to be under the impression that the number of petitions are a guideline to something being wrong with the game? If CCP would actually thik so, no-one would lose his/her ship ever again. The petitions that the "grieved" mission runners send to CCP will most likely result in a "this isn;t considered grieving, sorry for your loss" reply. Meaning there is nothing wrong with this kind of game play in CCP's point of view. Quote: This news just in. A bloke who plays computer games thinks he's better than other people who play the same computer game, but for no verifiable reason. Sadly this is to often true.... _________________________________________________________
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.12.07 14:15:00 - [788] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 07/12/2006 14:15:37 Originally by: Laythun They cause lag and inflation. good riddance. They also make up the vast majority of the playerbase, so unless you have plans for personally financing EVE, you might want to rethink that one.
Sendraks TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.12.07 14:17:00 - [789] Originally by: DeckardIRL So don't solo mission... and when they loot your cans shoot them- I am sure you ship is insured.... This works in low sec and will only work in high sec if they loot your drops. If a player in a frigate wants to take your mission loot, they will, and the only remote chance you have of stopping them is if you are grouped. If there is no mission loot then yes, technically they could considered to be helping you on the mission, but in which case they'd be grouped with you. Someone who busts your mission deadspace with the sole intent of taking out the targets is griefing, as there is no modus operandi for their actions beyond inconveniencing you. Afterall, if they wanted to shoot NPC rats, they could do their own missions and get more benefit for it. Pirates in low sec have a reason for their actions as they destroy your ship for the killmail and fittings. Sure its inconvenient, but at least there are reasons beyond simply spoiling your play.
Ishana Minmatar The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.07 14:17:00 - [790] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Laythun They cause lag and inflation. good riddance. That also make up the vast majority of the playerbase, so unless you have plans for personally financing EVE, you might want to rethink that one. I see this kind of thing all the time... HOW ON EARTH did you people get this idea? because really, unless CCP showed some real numbers, I find it very hard to believe. _________________________________________________________

Sendraks TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.12.07 14:18:00 - [791] Originally by: Laythun They cause lag and inflation. good riddance. Nooo, you're confusing Mission Runners with people running complexes out in 0.0 and players in general.
Radioactive Babe	Posted - 2006.12.07 14:22:00 - [792] Originally by: Sendraks This news just in. A bloke who plays computer games thinks he's better than other people who play the same computer game, but for no verifiable reason. May I add this to my sig? .. a classic alas, poor risk vs reward, I knew you well
Stradivarious Minmatar Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.07 14:25:00 - [793] Edited by: Stradivarious on 07/12/2006 14:30:36 Not everyone who comes into your mission is a griefer :) If you see my alt Polaran come into your mission, he's just there for wrecks, any loot you left in them will get dumped into a can. Attack him, and well he'll defend himself but don't expect to survive :) I generally wait until the owner of the mission is gone, however, you may catch a glimpse of him coming in long enough to bookmark the wrecks locations :P 99% of mission runners don't want to or can't salvage their wrecks, myself on the other hand can and will, and I'm trying to put together a couple rigs. So, since CCP deemed it wise to make them require 80+ units x 3 of rareish items, and since they seem to be racially based, you mission runners in empire are the best source for non race specific rig makers. In reference to the "do your own missions" comment, I can but it's faster to farm other peoples unwanted wrecks, if the owner wants them, all he has to do is convo me and say so, saying something in local, well I usually have that channel minimized except when I'm looking for war targets :P Edit: On a side note, I don't mess with the runners rats or loot, unless it gets in the way of salvaging a wreck(loot your damn cans!!!!) If I wanted your loot I'd still be farming sansha lvl 4's in Stain :P Something you might try to get rid of the ones stealing your loot, when you start the mission jettison a can with some crap in it, hopefully the thief won't be paying attention and will scoop it, guess what, you can now shoot him :) Sure, bring a knife to a gunfight.
Cerwyn Taraman Minmatar Phoenix Tech Industries	Posted - 2006.12.07 14:25:00 - [794] Originally by: Ishana Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Laythun They cause lag and inflation. good riddance. That also make up the vast majority of the playerbase, so unless you have plans for personally financing EVE, you might want to rethink that one. I see this kind of thing all the time... HOW ON EARTH did you people get this idea? because really, unless CCP showed some real numbers, I find it very hard to believe. Go to your Map. Click on Pilots in space. Look at the pretty colors. Tell me where the largest color splotches are at. Mouse over them, look at the numbers in each system. Learn that 80% of the playerbase is in Empire space. Many of them are doing missions. Repeat the above at any time of day, any day of the week. Then get back to me with an argument that the whole playerbase is out in 0.0 PVP warring.
Radioactive Babe	Posted - 2006.12.07 14:25:00 - [795] Originally by: Ishana I see this kind of thing all the time... HOW ON EARTH did you people get this idea? because really, unless CCP showed some real numbers, I find it very hard to believe. Map, meet Ishana ... alas, poor risk vs reward, I knew you well
Kamazani Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2006.12.07 14:27:00 - [796] just cloak the mission area, or make it unscannable. 'nuff said... no whining no crying no band-aids no tampons no diapers just pedialyte and hot-dogs. --------------------------- by: GinoShin on 21/11/2006 11:41:44 whats evemon is it like a jamican wiseman?
Harisdrop Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.12.07 14:27:00 - [797] Dev post ------------------------------------- New NPC
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.12.07 14:28:00 - [798] Originally by: Cerwyn Taraman Go to your Map. Click on Pilots in space. Look at the pretty colors. Tell me where the largest color splotches are at. Mouse over them, look at the numbers in each system. Learn that 80% of the playerbase is in Empire space. Many of them are doing missions. Repeat the above at any time of day, any day of the week. Then get back to me with an argument that the whole playerbase is out in 0.0 PVP warring. Exactly. It's not rocket science, people.
Uuve Savisaalo Umbra Congregatio	Posted - 2006.12.07 14:32:00 - [799] Originally by: Alex Harumichi That's bull**** and you know it. I'm pretty sure you know all this quite well. Why you pretend that you don't beats me. Consider the term 'isk faucet' What is implied, is that the money is not shuffled between different players, but rather generated into the economy out of nowhere. In high-level 0.0 complexes, the rewards come in form of modules, but bounties from rats tend to be minimal if at all existant. Mission rewards are mostly where it enters the economy. It is true - 0.0 complexes are by far more profitable for a player to do, but only because doing them involves finding high-end modules which can then be sold. usually to mission-runners, since they are one of the few constituencies able to pay through the nose for them. This just spreads funds through the economy, aleviating to some extent the glut mission runners create through their low-risk, high-gain playing style. To some extent this is an issue that is losing steam, because mission rewards are fixed, whereas the value of the ISK is not. Innitially, when l4's were released, the value was much greater and therefore mission rewards seemed disproportionately godly (so godly in fact that belt rat bounties were raised and mission bounties lowered across the board) but nowadays with the value having dropped approximately -20x, there is indeed less profit to be made in missions.. hell, even i'm a billionaire.
Ishana Minmatar The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.07 14:33:00 - [800] Originally by: Radioactive Babe Originally by: Ishana I see this kind of thing all the time... HOW ON EARTH did you people get this idea? because really, unless CCP showed some real numbers, I find it very hard to believe. Map, meet Ishana ... So just because there are allot of people in High-sec means they are all mission running carebears? yeah sure... The bigger part of those people are alts of PvPers, new players that don't have the isk/skills to go into low-sec-0.0, high-sec PvPers, miners, industrialists, PvPers shopping for new stuff. Just because there are allot of people in one spot doesn't mean they all have the same goal... geez... _________________________________________________________

Uuve Savisaalo Umbra Congregatio	Posted - 2006.12.07 14:34:00 - [801] Originally by: Cerwyn Taraman Go to your Map. Click on Pilots in space. Look at the pretty colors. Tell me where the largest color splotches are at. Mouse over them, look at the numbers in each system. Learn that 80% of the playerbase is in Empire space. Many of them are doing missions. This is why you make the gains of their playing style less attractive, inviting them to discover more about the game their habits formed in previous experiences have prevented them from exploring.
Lorn Yeager Gallente Blessed Souls	Posted - 2006.12.07 14:35:00 - [802] Originally by: Cerwyn Taraman Originally by: Ishana Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Laythun They cause lag and inflation. good riddance. That also make up the vast majority of the playerbase, so unless you have plans for personally financing EVE, you might want to rethink that one. I see this kind of thing all the time... HOW ON EARTH did you people get this idea? because really, unless CCP showed some real numbers, I find it very hard to believe. Go to your Map. Click on Pilots in space. Look at the pretty colors. Tell me where the largest color splotches are at. Mouse over them, look at the numbers in each system. Learn that 80% of the playerbase is in Empire space. Many of them are doing missions. Repeat the above at any time of day, any day of the week. Then get back to me with an argument that the whole playerbase is out in 0.0 PVP warring. So you think that entitles you to anything? Begin sig: //-> Its Aloha time! Lorn Yeager Blessed Souls
Harisdrop Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.12.07 14:35:00 - [803] They are changing scan probes: kieron Interstellar Services Department Posted - 2006.12.07 02:20:00 - [135] - Quote Although the patch notes have not been assembled yet, the Devs have been working on a number of fixes and improvements for Tuesday's Revelations 1.2 patch. Among the items under consideration for the patch are: Adjustments to the scan system so that: -griefing mission runners in deadspace complexes is more difficult, and -scan results are easier to interpret, Adjustments to the escalating path system, Changes to the wreck icons so non-Salvagers can identify wrecks containing lootable modules, and Adjustments to the salvage contained in a wreck, thus resulting in better and/or more frequent salvage drops. Other fixes scheduled for the patch include: Log-on/log-off notification window is back where it belongs, No more white screen flash on session change, *Bugs in various missions being resolved, and much more. Patch notes should be available on Friday, with additions made throughout the weekend as more items pass QA. Until I see the changelists, I cannot answer questions such as, "Will <insert issue> be in the patch?" kieron Community Manager, EVE OnlineDev post ------------------------------------- New NPC
Xaildaine	Posted - 2006.12.07 14:35:00 - [804] Originally by: Harisdrop Dev post Yeah... ok But Originally by: kieron *Adjustments to the scan system so that: -griefing mission runners in deadspace complexes is more difficult, and -scan results are easier to interpret, Regardless of how hard it is to do .. should it be posable for a Lamer to grief a highsec mission runner without ANY risk to himself?
Lichna Sihaya	Posted - 2006.12.07 14:36:00 - [805] Originally by: Laythun Originally by: Roshan longshot Guess the only thing to do, is all mission runners cancel subscriptions, for one month (set long training skill) After one month of loss income, I think CCP will say "this should be fixed" So go ahead mission runners CANCEL your subscriptions, for one month. When you come back things will have changed. They cause lag and inflation. good riddance. Ive played all aspects of the game from pirate to missions, The statement above is laughable if the pirates/pvp'ers/mission runner from 0.0 didnt dump all there elite crap in jita it would help with lag situation. If i have more than a couple of hours to spare or free weekend we head off to 0.0 for some fun, when ive only got an hour or two then doing missions is a quick fix Saying this game is only pvp tho is flawed, there would be no need for the whole skills section of social, which for the most part is to earn more isk / LP's through agent interaction. all parts of the eve universe interact with the other is some way shape or form be it in a good way or bad thats eve life, but to destroy one part of it through borked game mechanics, which scanning now is, is totally wrong. It surprises me to find that in 28 pages of boiling hate, nobody from CCP has had the balls to say one way or another what is / not going to happen over this situation seeing as they made such an emphasis on welcoming the NPE only for them to be griefed away and not even sticking around for the length of their 14 day trial
Sendraks TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.12.07 14:38:00 - [806] Originally by: Uuve Savisaalo This is why you make the gains of their playing style less attractive, inviting them to discover more about the game their habits formed in previous experiences have prevented them from exploring. This assumes that people don't actually enjoy doing missions and only do them for profit. I suspect you'll find that many people really do enjoy mission running and don't go exploring because they've found something they already enjoy. If they want to go exploring it should be by their own choice, they shouldn't be forced into it.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.12.07 14:42:00 - [807] Originally by: Uuve Savisaalo This just spreads funds through the economy, aleviating to some extent the glut mission runners create through their low-risk, high-gain playing style. To some extent this is an issue that is losing steam, because mission rewards are fixed, whereas the value of the ISK is not. Innitially, when l4's were released, the value was much greater and therefore mission rewards seemed disproportionately godly (so godly in fact that belt rat bounties were raised and mission bounties lowered across the board) but nowadays with the value having dropped approximately -20x, there is indeed less profit to be made in missions.. hell, even i'm a billionaire. Yeah, missions used to be too good, agreed on that. But during recent times? Nah. As you yourself note, the rewards have been heavily nerfed. Inflation is a problem, yes. But I think the blame lies in lots of directions where generating huge amounts of isk happens all the time (0.0 complexes, BPOs, etc etc). Missions are only a small part of that equation, I don't see people getting all that rich doing missions, at least not nowadays. Most I know do it to finance their other interests, but get rich through it? Not that often. You get rich in this game through various means, but missioning is nowadays far from the best or easiest route. Hell, I've done a lot more missions myself than I've pvp'ed, but my balance has never gone above 250 mil even once. Heh. Maybe I'm missing something, but all this "easy isk" I hear about has gone to other people. It must be some magic "extra bonus missions" that never get offered to me. The isk is a lot easier in 0.0. The rats provide steady isk, and all you need is some nice spawns now and then to provide you with faction stuff to sell. That's where the money is. Of course, the real money-for-free is in t2 BPOs. But that's another subject...
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.12.07 14:44:00 - [808] Originally by: Ishana So just because there are allot of people in High-sec means they are all mission running carebears? yeah sure... The bigger part of those people are alts of PvPers Boggle. So you're saying that over 50% of the people in Empire highsec are alts of pvpers? And they are just there shopping for pvp equipment? Wow. That's one big pile of alts. And a lot of shopping.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.12.07 14:46:00 - [809] Originally by: Lorn Yeager Originally by: Cerwyn Taraman Originally by: Ishana Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Laythun They cause lag and inflation. good riddance. That also make up the vast majority of the playerbase, so unless you have plans for personally financing EVE, you might want to rethink that one. I see this kind of thing all the time... HOW ON EARTH did you people get this idea? because really, unless CCP showed some real numbers, I find it very hard to believe. Go to your Map. Click on Pilots in space. Look at the pretty colors. Tell me where the largest color splotches are at. Mouse over them, look at the numbers in each system. Learn that 80% of the playerbase is in Empire space. Many of them are doing missions. Repeat the above at any time of day, any day of the week. Then get back to me with an argument that the whole playerbase is out in 0.0 PVP warring. So you think that entitles you to anything? The whoosing sound you hear is the point flying high above your head. The point being that a huge majority of the player base is in highsec. If they leave, it's a serious blow to CCP.
Sendraks TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.12.07 14:46:00 - [810] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Hell, I've done a lot more missions myself than I've pvp'ed, but my balance has never gone above 250 mil even once. Heh. Maybe I'm missing something, but all this "easy isk" I hear about has gone to other people. It must be some magic "extra bonus missions" that never get offered to me. Sounds like you're playing the same version of Eve that my friends and are. I've no idea where these multi-billion ISK income missions can be found, but I sure as hell am not doing them.

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