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ffs ccp, lock griefers out of missions.

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Rudolfii Miller	Posted - 2006.12.08 00:42:00 - [1021] Edited by: Rudolfii Miller on 08/12/2006 00:44:44 Edited by: Rudolfii Miller on 08/12/2006 00:43:17 ed: didn't mean to post with an alt Quote: Well, I may have to agree there. CCP has made most of the fundamental changes to gameplay in an effort to push people out of empire and into 0.0 and every single time (for the 2+ years I have been around) they have succeeded in the exact opposite. And it still amazes me that they don't get the simple fact that they have 150k subs because of the PVEers and that no amount of motives is going to turn people with no interest in PvP inot PvPers, they will just quit. We have had this discussion like this for the last three years. CCP does not seem to have predictive analysis down yet. Reduction in pain, not risk nor reward is the only way to get folks to spread out. Either more space needs to be like high sec with a fix to mission scanning. Or the death penalty will need a severe nerfing. I've already cancelled my accounts, again. We'll see what happens. This has always been a game with great potential; but it seems to be a consistent underachiever. For those who find great happiness in other peoples unhappiness, cancel your account. Use the money to seek professional help.
Uuve Savisaalo Umbra Congregatio	Posted - 2006.12.08 01:01:00 - [1022] Originally by: Rudolfii Miller the death penalty will need a severe nerfing. believe it or not, despite a few bears on this forum, there is a great deal of us old-timers who'll put up a good fight and go down swinging to preserve the game we've spent so much time playing over the past four years. You won't take our game from us.
Perseus D'Solos	Posted - 2006.12.08 01:12:00 - [1023] Edited by: Perseus D''Solos on 08/12/2006 01:14:12 Originally by: Uuve Savisaalo believe it or not, despite a few bears on this forum, there is a great deal of us old-timers who'll put up a good fight and go down swinging to preserve the game we've spent so much time playing over the past four years. You won't take our game from us. chuckles "Carebears" might be a little less vocal on the forums than gankbears, but that's mostly because we have things to do in real life as well. The "few" on the forums, are the vast majority of the playerbase. Now that CCP saw it fit to fix lag by investing heaps of $ into hardware, instead of fixing faulty code (though I have to admit that the bookmark nerf and the diminished need for buddy lists was a good move), as well as having spent considerable time "expanding" the game, and merging with another company, AND giving out some sort of strange card game (which no serious card game player will buy n'try anyways), a fair guess would be that they now are more vulnerable to losing percentages of players than they were when first launching the game. Alienating the largest group of players in EVE, which probably has the least patience with (and time for) bull****, is just plain dumb seen from a business perspective.
Mollyanna	Posted - 2006.12.08 01:12:00 - [1024] You don't get it, we don't wanna take anything from you - it's you who wanna take from us. Fine, take it, here, allll yours, cause me and Fred are outta here. Enjoy what you have left. -M
Uuve Savisaalo Umbra Congregatio	Posted - 2006.12.08 01:37:00 - [1025] Originally by: Mollyanna Enjoy what you have left. -M A vibrant community with consequence and tangible sense of victory as well as defeat in equal measure. A game that, despite being perhaps the least 'friendly', has grown and prospered where others declined. It has grown precisely on the differences it had emphacised upon, rather than catering to every cry-baby who feels their subscription fee entitles them to hold utter sway over the rules of the game. Hope you mean it as much as I do.
Xander XacXorien	Posted - 2006.12.08 01:44:00 - [1026] Originally by: Uuve Savisaalo Originally by: Rudolfii Miller the death penalty will need a severe nerfing. believe it or not, despite a few bears on this forum, there is a great deal of us old-timers who'll put up a good fight and go down swinging to preserve the game we've spent so much time playing over the past four years. You won't take our game from us. PvP in Eve is broke. It's still in Beta. The very fact you can shoot through ships is a very simple illustration of what is wrong with PvP. As is the blobs, reducing a player to a unit in a strategy game - I cannot think of anything more boring. Playing a game for years to ultimately be reduced to a unit. I don't agree with your analagy at all. I know a fair number of people over 2 years they tend to enjoy ALL aspects of Eve. Not just PvP, pirating and griefing. In those 4 years there never has been such a huge swing towards one style of play. Some people have spent YEARS skill training to specialise in one style of game play - CCP disregards play styles at the drop of a patch. You only have to look at Social and Leaderhip skils to understand that. In my honest opinion the refusal of CCP to recognise the fact the majority of players enjoy the industrial, mission and trade side of the game will eventually be the death knell of Eve as other games get developed providing what they want people will quite simply leave.
Uuve Savisaalo Umbra Congregatio	Posted - 2006.12.08 01:46:00 - [1027] Originally by: Perseus D'Solos chuckles Just my five cents. Pound foolish. Eve has been a very rough place from the start - you may get a sense that it was largely conceived as such. It never actively advertised in its early games and purposely spread slowly by word of mouth. The game was, and has remained quite uncompromising, as you can tell from CCP's decisions in running it, about what is permitted in player behaviour and how hands-off their approach is in letting players go about doing what they do best. You're predicting a massive drop in subscriptions if the game is not made, in effect, 'easier' for a certain constituency to play, yet it was never an easy game. Despite this it kept and keeps on steadily growing, having become a modest financial success. I don't think people are going to leave in droves if, god forbid, eebil greefers are not LOCKED THE F#(&$ OUT, to quote the OP, out of their instances. If anything, with the sort of variety we've in the market now, and the number of games out there, eve will attract a steady following of people who are into this sort of thing. I mean, its not possible to capture the entirety of the market, and WOW as well as other games offer a by far more compelling PVE experience, yet the gravity and seriousness found in eve's obvious PVP nature and setting are something very different and missing from other games. Thus far it has brought eve both success, distinction and acclaim beyond the realm of gaming - with virtual sociologists frequently citing what happens here as important precedents for things to come. Granted, CCP is a company that needs to maintain cash flow, but there exists a considerable audience for this game which had always been here due to ccp's unwillingness to compromise with their vision. Given that there are no games quite similar to eve on the market, its only safe to assume that cornering such a market niche might be by far more prudent a financial decision than trying to court the fickle casual gamer for whom eve is, in all brutal honesty, too steep of a learning curve anyway are we going to let such people burn, ****and pillage our beloved eve? EFF NO!
Tricit Caldari Dark Entropy iPOD Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.08 02:09:00 - [1028] I did make a long post, but it seems EVE has eaten it up. So I will summarize. The jump in population in EVE is due to: Word spread that it is easier for new players now People who are attracted to easy starts are people who: Prefer low risks The decline will start when: They reach about 4-7 months in gameplay when they realize low risk money making is no longer an option With already existing carebears and PvPers who prefer missions ONLY for ISK leaving: This game will see a quick burst in population but slowly cap out. Finally, when the people who were attracted by an easy start realize this games later content completely contradicts the easy start, they will: Leave in approximately 1-3 months after having realized this And CCP will have: Ample time to fix the problem People who are currently **ed off: Will either leave, whine like me or just not play for a while And finally, the summary of my final paragraph is: The fate of this game depends on whether they take advantage of their ample time to fix their own failure or just keep sniffing their own butt. The illusion to many people that actually read the EVE-O forums is that: Most people in EVE actually do PvP regularly or don't care about missions. The reality is that: Most people in EVE care about missions and a a large fraction** of people PvP, but a large fraction of people who PvP also rely on missions.
Shemar Gallente Photesthetics Glamour Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.08 02:10:00 - [1029] Originally by: Uuve Savisaalo The game was, and has remained quite uncompromising, as you can tell from CCP's decisions in running it, about what is permitted in player behaviour and how hands-off their approach is in letting players go about doing what they do best. You're predicting a massive drop in subscriptions if the game is not made, in effect, 'easier' for a certain constituency to play, yet it was never an easy game. Despite this it kept and keeps on steadily growing, having become a modest financial success. I don't think people are going to leave in droves if, god forbid, eebil greefers are not LOCKED THE F#(&$ OUT, to quote the OP, out of their instances. If anything, with the sort of variety we've in the market now, and the number of games out there, eve will attract a steady following of people who are into this sort of thing. That's where you are totally wrong. First of all, nobody is talking about making the game easier than it has been, it's about taking it back to what it was before Revelatons. If you seriously think that the majority of players are here for a 'ruthless' game of constant threat and harassment, you are delusional. A simple look at the population spread between empire and low-se/0.0 despite the significantly less rewards and option in empire, is enough to tell you what kind of experience the majority is looking for. People are already cancelling subscriptions, despite CCP having already acknowledged it as a problem and promised to fix it next Wednesday (albeit, no specifics) and with the problem with mission griefing being just in it's infant stages. As more and more missioners quit, the ones that stay will be harassed even more, until they in turn quit. I don;t know about 60%, but 30-35% drop in EVE subs seems realistic to me if the current situation remains. ________________ Enhanced eye sight does not make up for the lack of vision*
Kurt Russet	Posted - 2006.12.08 02:30:00 - [1030] Edited by: Kurt Russet on 08/12/2006 02:31:15 Now that this post is nearing 40 pages, would somebody from CCP care to comment on the issue and let us know the direction they are going to take regarding this, rather than letting us common people battle it out? Please ignore this if CCP has already commented. I didn't go through the whole thread. It's more than 35 pages long!

Rudolf Miller	Posted - 2006.12.08 02:33:00 - [1031] I think it would be interesting to have the statistics for percent of total player game time spent in high sec, low sec and no sec. From the map, it does appear the significant majority of people are in high sec. For the old players, getting rid of the superhighway certainly spread people out and alleviated solar system congestion.
Tricit Caldari Dark Entropy iPOD Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.08 02:39:00 - [1032] Originally by: Rudolf Miller I think it would be interesting to have the statistics for percent of total player game time spent in high sec, low sec and no sec. From the map, it does appear the significant majority of people are in high sec. For the old players, getting rid of the superhighway certainly spread people out and alleviated solar system congestion. Well, this can be partially explained by supply runs, but that doesn't stop the overwhelming numbers from indicating that atleast over 2/3rds of people rely on missions whether they PvP or not. I would guess over 3/4ths do.
Flinx Evenstar Momentum.	Posted - 2006.12.08 02:50:00 - [1033] Originally by: Radioactive Babe And anyway, a lot of the griefbears seem to have moved off to other topics themselves (or just plain busy blowing up guys doing missions that didnt read the forums ) Yep been busy killing. And grief bear...I like it, it makes me sound cuddly and cute. But serious, I have never jumped in on a high sec mission to "grief". I been attacked personally in this thread by people that probably have chips on their shoulders about real life issues, but...I dont see any of my victims complaining here. I have payed a lot of isk to people I felt sorry for after I popped them too fast My corp mates mock me for it sometimes...I give the loot back, and sometimes I pay for the ship. See I am cuddly If I get smacked in local...they get nothing but you know what....talk to people...make friends..I have recruited guys into our corp str8 after blowing them up. I have made many good friends with peeps that I have killed. As for the poor mission runners in low sec atm...yeah its getting a bit crowded now...3 different gank squads looking for targets none of them friendly to me. Time to lay low and let the mission runners think it is safe We need more mission bunnies
sesanti Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.12.08 02:54:00 - [1034] Edited by: sesanti on 08/12/2006 02:56:19 Originally by: Shemar Originally by: sesanti i don't tell that to people here who oppose what i think or MOCK them altogether, i just give them some reasoning to backup my arguments. Of which "blah blah I R UBER blah" is definitely not. Your whole reasoning is "don't play the game the way you like and the way you have been playing it for years, play it the way I tell you. Do I even have to tell you how uselsess that 'argument' is? Wrong, wrong, and wrong!. My reasoning is, play the game the way you like, but take into account you'll probably "collide" with other players who will try to outsmart you in every aspect, from pvp to mining to trade. And missions ARE NOT different and should not be treated differently, so don't come whining to the forums to have CCP change it. It's not me telling you to play the way i want, it's YOU telling CCP to change the game for the way YOU play it, even though i affects all others too. It's all of you missioners complaining and whining together for it. CCP is making changes to agents/deadspace probing, hopefully it'll make it just a bit harder but not impossible to jump on you... Then what? You'll be at the same situation that you're now, it just won't happen so often (for those of you who claimed that you were griefed 10 out of 10 times you got in to a mission... a blatant lie i believe). What then? You'll come to the forums to whine how useless the patch was? Because you're getting "griefed" still? Even though it's not griefing after all in 95% of the cases? _______________________________________________ The ShadowMaster - <I am a guy... don't mind the portrait>
Wendat Huron Lupus Industries	Posted - 2006.12.08 02:56:00 - [1035] Originally by: Xaildaine Originally by: Abyss Jack go into highsec? Low sec has the mission runner gankers.. Highsec has the mission runner griefers.. Why dose any idiot with a scanner get access to missions that i had to grind 2 weeks worth of standing to get access to? Its broken.. needs a fix I'd say 50% of the time they get it right, the rest they jump smack into a Concord sting operation bagging and tagging them.
Shiwhon Li Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.08 02:58:00 - [1036] Originally by: Uuve Savisaalo Granted, CCP is a company that needs to maintain cash flow, but there exists a considerable audience for this game which had always been here due to ccp's unwillingness to compromise with their vision. Given that there are no games quite similar to eve on the market, its only safe to assume that cornering such a market niche might be by far more prudent a financial decision than trying to court the fickle casual gamer for whom eve is, in all brutal honesty, too steep of a learning curve anyway are we going to let such people burn, ***and pillage our beloved eve? EFF NO! Are you Insane or are you just plain Stupid? You write as if you have at least a tiny bit of intelligence. Let's see if we can kick start a little bit of it. In this thread I've counted 10+ account cancellations because of the griefing that you are defending. I've just started in EVE. How pray tell am I supposed to get enough standing with the NPC corps of any system 1.0 to 0.0 if stupid *ers like you don't want me doing missions for the various agents. I need this standing to play the game the way I want to. When you started playing you did missions without being harassed. You are now denying me the same benefit. But you seem to think that I should just play the game your way, without the benefit of the standings that you worked for or without the ISK that you now have. When the HELL did you start paying my account fees? You don't OWN this game. It is not yours. And you have no place telling me or anyone else how they should play this game. And before you start spouting MORE nonsense and drivel - Yes I have read EVERY POST IN THIS THREAD. And you stand out as a shining beacon of idiocy among the halt, feebleminded and just plain stupid. Simple statistics will tell you that if 10+ accounts have been publicly canceled there must be 10 times that many that have done so quietly. And this is in approximately 48 hours of the start of the griefing. Have you never heard of "Word of Mouth"? It used to be EvE's primary means of advertising, It will now be the primary weapon used against EvE and plant the seeds of it's downfall. Simple Salesmanship 101 tells you that ONE disgruntled and unsatisfied customer can COST 10 sales, while ONE pi$$ed off customer can cost THOUSANDS of sales. Mad people become evangelists campaigning for the destruction of the thing that caused their anger. All you have to do is look at Mothers Against Drunk Drivers* or my favorite Roe vs. Wade to see what a relatively few angry people can do. So go ahead and continue playing YOUR game YOUR way while denying the rest of us the ability to play this "Open Ended" game our way. I just wish that I could meet a pathetic sniveling little coward like you in REAL LIFE. I could use you as an object lesson to my grandchildren of what they shouldn't aspire to be. Maybe you could send me a picture. *Shiwhon Li*
Flinx Evenstar Momentum.	Posted - 2006.12.08 02:59:00 - [1037] Edited by: Flinx Evenstar on 08/12/2006 02:59:55 Originally by: Exlegion You want me to back up my accusations? Read your posts and you will find all the proof you need, sir. Edit: [sigh] and again, I really don't care whether you ARE L33t in EVE or not. Seriously, Flinx, it really doesn't mean anything in the real world. And telling me that your **** is big, now I just feel like you're coming on to me Let me repeat, killing mission runners is NOT an exploit I still cant believe how many people do run missions in low sec when it is FULL of hostiles....I have to kill the mission guy in under 3 mins or be ganked myself, its like a queue of killers. Kill, get out, or you are next on scan. NO risk Try it your self. Still...I got a whole bunch of T2 stuff tonight, and escaped the DOTM gank sqaud. I dont claim to be leet or elite or however you children spell it. I play a game, I have fun..thats about it btw Maybe I was flirting a little, have you gone off me now?
Kurt Russet	Posted - 2006.12.08 03:00:00 - [1038] Edited by: Kurt Russet on 08/12/2006 03:03:06 .... balancing in system scanning of deadspace in agents/complexes (way too easy) and exploration (way too hard and easier escalation),... The patch and maintenance deployment time is scheduled for four hours. Patch notes will be available this weekend. kieron Community Manager, EVE Online People, hope that you have seen this. Full text HERE
Exlegion Caldari Legion's Knight	Posted - 2006.12.08 03:05:00 - [1039] Edited by: Exlegion on 08/12/2006 03:06:52 Originally by: Flinx Evenstar Let me repeat, killing mission runners is NOT an exploit I still cant believe how many people do run missions in low sec when it is FULL of hostiles....I have to kill the mission guy in under 3 mins or be ganked myself, its like a queue of killers. Kill, get out, or you are next on scan. NO risk Try it your self. Still...I got a whole bunch of T2 stuff tonight, and escaped the DOTM gank sqaud. I dont claim to be leet or elite or however you children spell it. I play a game, I have fun..thats about it btw Maybe I was flirting a little, have you gone off me now? Wow, you got T2 stuff tonight AND managed to get away from DOTM? I take it back, you ARE pretty cool. Can we hang out some day? I want to grow up and be just like you
Flinx Evenstar Momentum.	Posted - 2006.12.08 03:14:00 - [1040] Originally by: Exlegion Wow, you got T2 stuff tonight AND managed to get away from DOTM? I take it back, you ARE pretty cool. Can we hang out some day? I want to grow up and be just like you Kissy kiss...you really dont like me do you Dont keep making this personal, I dont think you should grow up to be just like me, as I have some terrible vices, but I suggest you do just try grow up a little. I have a lot of fun in this game, try it yourself. You might like it. Oh hang on...it involves interaction and social skills...maybe best leave it then

Archbishop Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.08 03:16:00 - [1041] Im just wondering why all these "uber pvp" people who advocate this sort of activity would hang out in high sec space picking on weak targets like miners and mission runners? If they're so "pvp" oriented and Eve is a "pvp" game Id expect them to be out taking on BoB in 0.0 space or something. Then again thats where the whole concept of "griefing" comes in. Like taking specific items or aggroing the boss to ruin a mission. They may claim NOW that its to resell and thus is economic but what was it ORIGINALLY? What was the ORIGINAL intent of these actions? Economic or just to harrass people? Want to kill someone and get loot? Declare war on them. This is just pathetic. Archie PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER
Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Momentum.	Posted - 2006.12.08 03:22:00 - [1042] Edited by: Flinx Evenstar on 08/12/2006 03:23:40 Originally by: Archbishop Im just wondering why all these "uber pvp" people who advocate this sort of activity would hang out in high sec space picking on weak targets like miners and mission runners? If they're so "pvp" oriented and Eve is a "pvp" game Id expect them to be out taking on BoB in 0.0 space or something. Then again thats where the whole concept of "griefing" comes in. Like taking specific items or aggroing the boss to ruin a mission. They may claim NOW that its to resell and thus is economic but what was it ORIGINALLY? What was the ORIGINAL intent of these actions? Economic or just to harrass people? Want to kill someone and get loot? Declare war on them. This is just pathetic. Archie Ooooh evil slaver man. Let me say to you , your holiness...I do NOT grief mission runners in high sec. But I seem to be under personal attack from some Caldari heathen that thinks it's his god given right to wander free in low sec and not be risk to attack. Once again for the hard of hearing....most of us KILL the mission runner...we do it in low sec. Please CCP to stop the griefers, move all Lev4 missions to low sec..then they can shoot at me High sec griefers should be taking the smack in this thread ...not me Edit: Scanning down a mission runner is NOT an exploit. Just felt the urge to repeat that for some of you
Exlegion Caldari Legion's Knight	Posted - 2006.12.08 03:27:00 - [1043] Originally by: Flinx Evenstar Originally by: Exlegion Wow, you got T2 stuff tonight AND managed to get away from DOTM? I take it back, you ARE pretty cool. Can we hang out some day? I want to grow up and be just like you Kissy kiss...you really dont like me do you Dont keep making this personal, I dont think you should grow up to be just like me, as I have some terrible vices, but I suggest you do just try grow up a little. I have a lot of fun in this game, try it yourself. You might like it. Oh hang on...it involves interaction and social skills...maybe best leave it then No. Not that I don't like you. But more that I really don't care for you. And, to be honest, by you waving your **** around, don't ya think you've made it personal enough? Oh, and I too have fun playing EVE, but, people like you keep trying to impose your style of play on people like me, and well, you can see why the reaction is so intense on this thread. True PVP pirates I think are a nececessity in EVE. Griefers I think the EVE community can do without. And I'm really not going to explain why a large attrition as the one you advocate would be a bad thing for any game, since I believe you really couldn't care much about that than your T2 stuff and amazing escape from DOTM was it?
Shemar Gallente Photesthetics Glamour Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.08 03:30:00 - [1044] Originally by: sesanti Wrong, wrong, and wrong!. My reasoning is, play the game the way you like, but take into account you'll probably "collide" with other players who will try to outsmart you in every aspect, from pvp to mining to trade. And missions ARE NOT different and should not be treated differently, so don't come whining to the forums to have CCP change it. It's not me telling you to play the way i want, it's YOU telling CCP to change the game for the way YOU play it, even though i affects all others too. It's all of you missioners complaining and whining together for it. You are the one who is wrong. People have been running missions for years. It is the latest patch that had the new griefing opportunities as an unintended consequance. People are simply asking for the game they have been playing for years. Mission griefing has nothing to do with 'outsmarting' or being able to fight. It is about taking advantage of game mechanics to annoy people. I can take on anyone in a one on one fight, but I don't care to run around looking for fights and I don't care to be tied down to having to work with other people. That has a cost in-game in that my income is greatly reduced and a lot of the game content is inaccesible to be, but that's fine, it's my choice. However an EVE where I would have to live in high sec as if it was low sec is unacceptable. And I bet you that is the case for the majority of the player base. Originally by: sesanti CCP is making changes to agents/deadspace probing, hopefully it'll make it just a bit harder but not impossible to jump on you... Then what? You'll be at the same situation that you're now, it just won't happen so often (for those of you who claimed that you were griefed 10 out of 10 times you got in to a mission... a blatant lie i believe). What then? You'll come to the forums to whine how useless the patch was? Because you're getting "griefed" still? Even though it's not griefing after all in 95% of the cases? Personally I haven't been griefed a single time. What I care about is a balance. If the griefer has to put into griefing me, half as much work as I put into doing the mission, I am happy with that, since most griefers are useless, lazy, sorry excuses for sentient beings and are unlikely to actually do something that requires effort. I am a casual player, I do maybe a mission every two days (and all I do when I actually fly is missions). When it only takes someone 2 minutes of scanning to ruin that for me, there is no balance and no sense of me bothering with this game. But I am not quitting, at least not until CCP comes out and says no solo, no PvE (and I'll be laughing my ass off as they tumble into bankruptsy if they ever do that). I will be complaining and urging others to complain and filing petitions clogging queues every time I think someone is exploiting game mechanics and I will even go grief new players to make the screaming more loud if I have to, until I have the game I have been playig and paying for 2+ years back. ________________ Enhanced eye sight does not make up for the lack of vision
Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Momentum.	Posted - 2006.12.08 03:32:00 - [1045] Edited by: Flinx Evenstar on 08/12/2006 03:32:57 Originally by: Exlegion Originally by: Flinx Evenstar Originally by: Exlegion Wow, you got T2 stuff tonight AND managed to get away from DOTM? I take it back, you ARE pretty cool. Can we hang out some day? I want to grow up and be just like you Kissy kiss...you really dont like me do you Dont keep making this personal, I dont think you should grow up to be just like me, as I have some terrible vices, but I suggest you do just try grow up a little. I have a lot of fun in this game, try it yourself. You might like it. Oh hang on...it involves interaction and social skills...maybe best leave it then No. Not that I don't like you. But more that I really don't care for you. And, to be honest, by you waving your **** around, don't ya think you've made it personal enough? Oh, and I too have fun playing EVE, but, people like you keep trying to impose your style of play on people like me, and well, you can see why the reaction is so intense on this thread. True PVP pirates I think are a nececessity in EVE. Griefers I think the EVE community can do without. And I'm really not going to explain why a large attrition as the one you advocate would be a bad thing for any game, since I believe you really couldn't care much about that than your T2 stuff and amazing escape from DOTM was it? Do you even read anything I write. You call me a griefer because...? I have said many times...I dont jump on high sec mission runners. All I do is pvp...I dont run missions any more, I dont mine and I dont trade. And if I ever see you on scan...oh boy Just because I admit to killing mission runners, you want to take your frustrations out on me. Good luck with that, fit some guns and find a locator agent
Archbishop Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.08 03:39:00 - [1046] Quote: Ooooh evil slaver man. Let me say to you , your holiness...I do NOT grief mission runners in high sec. But I seem to be under personal attack from some Caldari heathen that thinks it's his god given right to wander free in low sec and not be risk to attack. Once again for the hard of hearing....most of us KILL the mission runner...we do it in low sec. Please CCP to stop the griefers, move all Lev4 missions to low sec..then they can shoot at me High sec griefers should be taking the smack in this thread ...not me Edit: Scanning down a mission runner is NOT an exploit. Just felt the urge to repeat that for some of you I have no issue with you doing what you do in "dangerous" space (ie: .4 and below). Its this type of behavior in a 1.0 or .9 system that I find "griefing" and namely because while it has evolved to "its economic" this thread didnt start that way. Its clear this was just an excuse these high security gankers used to try and justify their behavior. My concern is with the overall health of the newer player community. We've all created alts and sat in the newbie channels and had people ask "how do I make money". What do we tell them? Well you can mine or you can run missions. So they do a bit of both and granted mission are "funner" usually so they do that. So imagine a new player, in the game two weeks, running a L2 mission and meeting up in .8 space with some ganker who steals his loot, or aggros the boss to ruin the mission. Theres nothing redeeming in any of that kind of behavior against new players. We've seen this time and time again. Behavior that some call "it a pvp game" behavior that clearly is something else. The entire concept of risk versus reward is at play but given the population dispersal in the game (look at the map) most of Eves pilots at any one time are in the 25% or so of Eve that is "safer" Empire space. Why is that? I'm sure some of them are alts of pvpers in 0.0 but many are not. Many choose to play the game in Empire and take the lessor rewards because they dont want endless PvP. Sure its a PvP game but "risk vs. reward" indicates that being in safer space with less reward would equal less risk. That isnt happening here. To compensate for all of this given the "risk" is now much higher even in 1.0 space CCP should quadruple the financial rewards to mission runners and maybe start handing out bonuses in stations as well (nice BP copies or something). I mean before "risk" was low because reward was low in these mission but now that isnt the case. I dont even run missions past L2 myself I cant stand them. I dont really care for mission runners as I believe they make plenty of money without needing a T2 BP "bonus" from an agent. I still remember them getting T2 components as agent rewards and CCP scrambling to fix it because they'd put POSs out of business. I'm not fan of the mission runners. But in this case they're 100% right. In Empire space its "safer" and overall for the health of the game and especially newer players high security scan & gank tactics arent "good". Its just a common sense thing in my view. Recall a couple of years ago when a certain pair of players went to -10.0 sec and went into a 1.0 newbie system and ganked new players undocking in ibis's for several hours until the GMs stepped in. It seems without any "drop" in sec standing Concord would never arrive to stop them. Sure it was "legal" but was it good for the game? How many newer players quit over that? As veteran players we have an obligation to encourage new players to stay with the game and build something. Sitting in 1.0 space griefing one week old L2 mission runners isnt the way to do it. If that one week old player flies into .4 blast away but until that time he needs to be watched over and encouraged to continue playing Eve. Its the responsibility of all of us. Archie PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER
Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Momentum.	Posted - 2006.12.08 03:51:00 - [1047] Edited by: Flinx Evenstar on 08/12/2006 03:53:12 Edited by: Flinx Evenstar on 08/12/2006 03:51:17 Originally by: Archbishop sensible stuff Archie See thats back on topic. I'll leave the grumpy guys like Exlegion to their own devices now. But on a side note, I have encouraged many new players (ie less than 30 days old ) to continue with the game. Yes they need a safe starting place and sometimes a leg up. I popped one poor guys osprey twice in 15mins, and then gave him 10mil and a good half hour convo on how to survive in low sec. A few guys were going to quit after being killed by me, but I took the time to tell them that it was not personal and gave them ship fitting advice..and a hug (I know...I am a crap pirate ) I was helped out at the start of this game, I was enroled into a great corp at 1 week old and started my life in 0.1 sec system. Yes I'm all for helping out "NEW" players, but 1 year old mission farmers in an npc corp should know better. Well, I have grown fat and lazy on my kills tonight. The corpses are in the freezer so I wish you all happy hunting
sesanti Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.12.08 03:58:00 - [1048] Originally by: Shemar Stuff that took up a lot of characters Missions were "scannable" before, albeit far far more complicated to locate than now, so a pirate had to put more effort into it before. But was definitely doable. Maybe CCP will make it harder with the patch that will be deployed in a few hours, we'll just have to wait. And balance is something different... Everytime some ship is blown up, chances are the person who was victimized lost more in the cost of the ship and modules than the payout of the activity he was doing, for instance for missioning, ratting, and mining (of course there must be plenty of exceptions, like 0.0 mining, i won't deny it). That does not necessarily mean the game is unbalanced. In this particular case just making it a bit harder to scan people on missions should do (even warping people to entrance, forcefully), but once a scanning is complete and someone's deep space pocket is found and breached, well, though luck if that person is killed, not able to finish that mission that day, having all rats killed or loot stolen, or even ransomed for the mission completion item. Nothing to do, same thing was when someone is mining and a pirate warps in and blows you up, or blows up your can when you escape. That's what i mean. No missioners "strikes", not locking out people from missions using a personal key, not getting Koncordokened, nada, nothing of the sort should apply once you located the other guy. _______________________________________________ The ShadowMaster - <I am a guy... don't mind the portrait>
Uuve Savisaalo Umbra Congregatio	Posted - 2006.12.08 04:08:00 - [1049] Edited by: Uuve Savisaalo on 08/12/2006 04:11:44 Originally by: Shiwhon Li I just wish that I could meet a pathetic sniveling little coward like you in REAL LIFE. I could use you as an object lesson to my grandchildren of what they shouldn't aspire to be. Maybe you could send me a picture. I'm a forensic toxicologist working for several laboratories in Los Angeles, California - perhaps most notably the los angeles county office of the coroner. Prior to my foray into clinical chemistry, which was my primary education, i had brief forays into game development, starting as an intern with troika games, then working on several titles with Lucasarts primarily in the capacity of an artist. My views are based on attempting to look at the game experience as a whole and the way it affects players collectively, rather than focusing on joys and pitfalls of an individual experience. As i have said before, no player wants to be adversely affected by another, and most games do not give players the power to affect others without some measure of consensus. Eve has been very different in that respect, and the issue we are now arguing over has always been in the game - for as long as scan probes have existed, anyway. I'm a little surprised as to why this thread has become a referendum on the future of eve's core design principles, and whether it will remain as uncompromising to the vision of its developed as it always has been - espeically during the period of the growth you cite.. I'm pretty sure that ccp has their head in the right place. This is to say that eve isn't for everyone, and I'd venture further on to say that it isn't for the majority of the people weaned on gameplay styles available in other MMOGs out right now or expectations formed in those games. There is a pretty significant amount of people out there bored to tears by the shallowness and limited interaction, the constant meddling and over-designing of contrived systems meant to keep players from having a truly massively multiplayer experience - and these players have a home in eve. Call them what you will, but they are numerous and loyal customers, willing to stay and participate for periods of time by far longer than the casual crowd that hops to whatever thing is new and shiny. Eve is not a WOW-style theme park - it can support extremely open-ended gameplay, and attempts to curb this are bound to result in a less enjoyable experience for everybody involved, whether they affiliate themselves with griefers or carebears or neither. In the end you're expecting apples from an elm, thrashing about, stomping foot and threatening e-suicide. We have no right to tell you how to play the game, naturally, but you aren't asking for the status quo either -- You're asking to have the game changed to your infantile whims, which is a different matter entirely. Eve has attracted its players by staying true to itself, as it shall remain with or without you.
Mollyanna	Posted - 2006.12.08 04:25:00 - [1050] Sorry, but I don't call blatantly misrepresenting their game to sell it "having their head in the right place" - I rather think that head is in a different 'place' if they have to deny certain facts about the product to sell it to new users. Like said above, PO'ed ex-customers are not your best marketing resource, and i'm very PO'ed, and not at all alone in it. One fix of a blatantly obvious problem doesn't change that what's in the FAQ and on the box is a blatant misrepresentation of the game experience. And if the history is anything to go by, they'll definately favor the griefers at the mission runners expense - thanks, but no thanks. -M

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