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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16838
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Posted - 2015.08.09 11:42:02 -
[151] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Malcanis wrote: I forgot you were gathering questions. I have one:
What are CCP & The CSM's thoughts on refining the Phoebe travel restrictions with a view to changing the restrictive mechanism from a flat timer to a gameplay or chance-based mechanism?
.
As always, I speak for myself, not the CSM as a whole. I think the jump changes did what they set out to do. Do I think all the numbers are perfect? No, there is always room for refinement and dial turning to tweak it here and there. A complete shift in the mechanics is also worth looking at but not one that results in 'nerf everyone except 'us'' Sadly some of the questions are leading to that. I am not sure what you mean by a gameplay mechanic. Chance? Ooooh, so much room in that word. Do you mean a chance of the person missing the destination, even by systems or a constellation (fatigue replaced by 'accuracy' which diminishes unless you allow systems and pilot to re-align) or do you mean a chance of huge fatigue or none at all? AS Sugar said above, we are collecting and collating the questions this weekend. If you have some the end is near. m
What I'm getting at here is that "Jump Fatigue" is a classic example of a CCP mechanic: in a narow mechanical sense, it change the parameters of what can and can't be done. But it doesn't add any game. Got a timer? No jumping for you, the end. Timer's up? OK you can jump now. As an EVE health and safety regulation, it's nicely constructed. As a gameplay mechanism it's a "to do" marker.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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SpaceyX
Blackwater USA Inc. Pandemic Legion
0
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Posted - 2015.08.09 12:04:47 -
[152] - Quote
Alexandra Payne wrote: ... all mechanics should be available to all players, right from day one? Thanks
Do you even think about the players, who have spent years, hundrets of dollars and what ever in the game to get to a certain point , where they can use "advanced" mechanics? And you want all the good stuff available for the beginning? That is not the way EVE works. If you do not want to wait => buy a char.
The castration CCP brought with jump fatigue was basicly a big punch directly in the face of the "veteran" players.
As is started playing EVE my BIG GOAL was owning a Super or a Titan. There was nothing more i wanted to do than throw that thing into a big capital fight. As i reached my goal, guess what?
Jump fatigue and the castration of jump range is not the way to go. At least not as it is right now.
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Svana Shaishi
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
5
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Posted - 2015.08.09 15:33:14 -
[153] - Quote
I will be able to stream this if no one else is already doing it. |
Shirrar
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2015.08.09 16:05:18 -
[154] - Quote
What are your thoughts on having a timer be per ship and not per character? This would limit force projection but not prevent the player from changing ships and continuing to play the game.
Other ideas:
-Resource cost per jump which increases if jumps are done quickly after each other but doesn't prevent you from jumping. Perhaps ozone or some other resource.
-Much shorter timers |
Rad1st
AirGuard LowSechnaya Sholupen
5
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Posted - 2015.08.09 16:10:04 -
[155] - Quote
Dont touch anything while it working |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1118
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Posted - 2015.08.09 16:10:57 -
[156] - Quote
is that fatigue reduction bonus on jump freighters going to get removed?
at the time they said not having it would kill nullsec or something. I look forward to hauling actually being a real part of the game, rather than just invincible teleport ships who never have to leave the dock radius of a station. |
Darius Caliente
The Pinecone Squad Clockwork Pineapple
101
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Posted - 2015.08.09 16:23:24 -
[157] - Quote
Do you have any plans to address the death of solo, nomadic game play? It used to be quite simple to take a carrier, load up a few ships, and move across the universe for new content. Now, that capability has been removed and a similar trip takes days.
Are there any plans to adjust the loss of BLOPS "quick attack" capabilities. The idea of BLOPS should be ninja attacks in and out, strike fast, eat cap boosters while you kill your target, and get out. Having fatigue after that first jump means finding a safe and sitting and waiting in hostile territory for up to 5 minutes. This seems counter-intuitive to the nature of BLOPS. Have you considered having jump fatigue kick in after every second jump or further reducing the jump fatigue reduction to say JF Levels
Many people play EVE for capital ships. It was the reason that I started playing EVE. Do you think a 30 day timer is a little excessive? Wouldn't capping fatigue at 12, 24, or even 48 hours be just as sufficient? At 24 hours, you still have a 32-minute cooldown. This seems sufficient to prevent force projection while still allowing those of us that love capital ships to use them regularly. Does it really make sense to have a game that limits a persons play time to once every 8 or 30 days? It seems like that's a lot less content for other people with players simply logging off to play other games to wait out timers. |
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC Desman Alliance
166
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Posted - 2015.08.09 16:47:47 -
[158] - Quote
Alexandra Payne wrote:all mechanics should be available to all players, right from day one? EVE was nerfed pretty hard in order to improve new player experience. Veterans said "WTF?" and canceled subscriptions. New players said "thank you, this game doesnt fit me" and left. The faster they try through all of the possible mechanics, the more chance they quit before realizing what EVE is _really_ about. And btw, new players can jump, right from day one, in a rookie ship.
SpaceyX wrote:As is started playing EVE my BIG GOAL was owning a Super or a Titan. There was nothing more i wanted to do than throw that thing into a big capital fightsafely use it dunking left and right while knowing that my butt will be saved anytime. As i reached my goal, guess what? Fixed that for you. That risk-averse behavior of you and the likes of your is the reason we all got that fatigue. |
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC Desman Alliance
166
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Posted - 2015.08.09 17:03:38 -
[159] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:What I'm getting at here is that "Jump Fatigue" is a classic example of a CCP mechanic: in a narow mechanical sense, it change the parameters of what can and can't be done. But it doesn't add any game. Got a timer? No jumping for you, the end. You can use gates. Allowing capitals through the gates was a huge mistake imo, but they did it for the sake of the "game", so you should be thankful.
Allowing the gates turned cyno-jammers from strategic assets into carebears sentinels. With cyno-jammers, dominion sov could still work with a couple of tweaks. Without them, we were doomed to have fozzie-sov, where capitals are useless. And this nerf-cascade was triggered so that you can have that "game". |
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC Desman Alliance
166
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Posted - 2015.08.09 17:11:59 -
[160] - Quote
And I do have a question for CCP. Is my Rorqual really that fearsome, that you keep it tamed to 5 LY ? |
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Rob Kaichin
Empire Assault Corp Dead Terrorists
1
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Posted - 2015.08.09 17:16:44 -
[161] - Quote
I'd just like to point out a general trend here, from what I've been reading. There's a significant trend of 'we don't know what CCP wants or intends with these changes' from the comments here.
Obviously CCP has intentions. Could they perhaps publish them to help us understand what they're aiming for.
With no defined objectives, you cannot measure success.
As for Malcanis' point, a 'you can jump anyway' ability, unless the downsides were so terrible, would just remove the Phoebe changes for the larger groups, whilst keeping them for the smaller groups.
Phoebe, for all its apparent problems, applies equally. Changing this, without a very good reason, isn't sensible. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16841
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Posted - 2015.08.09 17:24:46 -
[162] - Quote
Skia Aumer wrote:Malcanis wrote:What I'm getting at here is that "Jump Fatigue" is a classic example of a CCP mechanic: in a narow mechanical sense, it change the parameters of what can and can't be done. But it doesn't add any game. Got a timer? No jumping for you, the end. You can use gates. Allowing capitals through the gates was a huge mistake imo, but they did it for the sake of the " game", so you should be thankful. Allowing the gates turned cyno-jammers from strategic assets into carebears sentinels. With cyno-jammers, dominion sov could still work with a couple of tweaks. Without them, we were doomed to have fozzie-sov, where capitals are useless. And this nerf-cascade was triggered so that you can have that " game".
If only there were some way for a few guys in cheap subcaps to slow the hell out of capital gate travel
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
2926
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Posted - 2015.08.09 17:24:54 -
[163] - Quote
OK, 8 pages and some good questions and fuel for the roundtable.
I am drawing a line here and things after this may or may not be attended to. Watch for the soundcloud (the link will be posted in this thread) and perhaps even a twitch stream (not my call)
Now we sort the questions into general categories and try to find the appropriate alcohol to get the dev to talk
Thanks again, guys. You kept this civil and fairly easy to work through
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
918
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Posted - 2015.08.09 17:33:31 -
[164] - Quote
Skia Aumer wrote:And I do have a question for CCP. Is my Rorqual really that fearsome, that you keep it tamed to 5 LY ?
As a remote-repping triage-capable ship with drone bonuses that can carry a tower, hardeners, and a clone bay? It was conceivably a one-ship invasion, actually. Especially if the ships it's carrying are battle-ventures. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16842
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Posted - 2015.08.09 17:37:51 -
[165] - Quote
For all those people complaining about jump fatigue.
Consider this: http://dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/Verite/influence.png
Compare to this: https://marlonasky.wordpress.com/2014/02/11/cancers-of-eve-online-teleportation/
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Tau Phoenix
Eternal Darkness. Blades of Grass
47
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Posted - 2015.08.09 18:22:00 -
[166] - Quote
When CCP decided to alter the jump range of capitals and also introduced the fatigue mechanic the primary purpose was to limit force projection and traveling vast distances in a short amount of time. Now with the 'new' mechanics this has turned the game into a game of logistics, a game of 'waiting'.
The virtual effect of this was to make New Eden 'larger again' in terms of travel time and hardship.
Questions:
1) Have CCP considered that expanding the Universe itself by a factor as well as a reduced fatigue mechanic could have bought the desired effect the game was looking for?
2) Can CCP show use what the effect the Jump range reduction and Fatigue mechanics have had on:
a) Travel/migration. b) Universal market activity Highsec vs Nullsec (before and after the changes) c) Player activity after enuring fatigue, e.g they played in sub caps, logged off to wait out timers etc.
3) Are there any plans to remove jump fatigue for jump bridges?
Thanks in advance.
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Kazenorecon
Scanned Down.
1
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Posted - 2015.08.09 20:19:12 -
[167] - Quote
1) Are there any plans for removing jump fatigue? 2) If jump fatigue is not removed will there be a skill that reduces jump fatigue significantly enough to make capitals viable again and less frustrating to move? 3) Do you think it's a good things that players have decided it's easier to self destruct capitals than move them? 4) Can we also have statics on how many capitals have been self destructed since Phoebe?
At the end of the day EVE is a game, not a job, its supposed to be fun. Imo jump fatigue needs to be removed or significantly nerfed in order to make eve more enjoyable. It shouldn't be easier to self destruct capitals instead of moving them. |
Centhina
MASS A DEATH Mordus Angels
11
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Posted - 2015.08.09 23:52:29 -
[168] - Quote
Excellent point! Space needs to be more localized like this. The only thing I would like to see about jump fatigue change is it's effect on BLOPS BS and Bridges, Jump Bridges, and MAYBE Jump Freighters. JF fatigue isn't so bad TBH. |
Korben Bada
Dread Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.08.10 00:22:21 -
[169] - Quote
Can or will exceptions be made to Jump Fatigue as part of the outcomes from this discussion?
I would like to see it removed from all sub-cap ships to allow player movement while still limiting capital projection as it was intended. Right now to make any kind of movement we have to plan our game sessions hours in advance or log out and play World of Warships for a while until the timer runs out. Allowing sub-cap movement might increase participation in the current sov mechanics too.
Having a mechanic that prevents me playing Eve makes me think you do not want me playing Eve. |
Simon Falls
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
15
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Posted - 2015.08.10 01:15:59 -
[170] - Quote
I think jump fatigue should be based on the size of the ship and the distance being jumped.
Limiting jump bridge networks has just slowed down content.
Bridging does not equal jumping for Black Ops or Titans
If you want to 'fix things' then have small ships dock in carriers and carriers jump. Carriers and Super Carriers should be able to jump sub caps.
I don't care for the 5 AU distance limitation but as a game I'd think that big ships should jump further than small ships and their fatigue should be greater regardless.
So a super carrier is big, it's jump range is far, it's cool down takes a long time.
A carrier is medium, it's jump range isn't as far, and it's cool down takes time.
A black ops is small, it's jump range is extensive (along the line of a jump freighter) and it's cool down is about the same as a JF.
I think Titan's should be able to jump (not bridge) across the map. (Titan's aren't the sov problem Supers were.) If a Titan jumps 100 light years and suffers 24 hours of jump fatigue that seems reasonable.
Simon |
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Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
283
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Posted - 2015.08.10 02:39:34 -
[171] - Quote
There is ZERO difference between bridging and Jump Bridges
Same range and same exact case for power projection |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
931
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Posted - 2015.08.10 06:09:20 -
[172] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:There is ZERO difference between bridging and Jump Bridges
Same range and same exact case for power projection
Nonsense. Bridging can be done from within your space into enemy space. Jump Bridges require the same power to hold both ends. This is not power projection, it's domestic travel.
Edit to add: What made jump bridges seem like such tools for power projection was the sheer sprawling size of empires - NA's rental space dominated the east side of the map the way the combined allianes of the CFC dominated the west side. So yes, people could use what amounted to the equivalent of continent-spanning highway systems to put the pedal down and cross vast distances. But those jump bridge networks relied on sprawling empires that can't exist anymore. You can't hold the space if you don't have the population density, and if there's an entity with enough people to maintain that population density across 50% of the conquerable systems in EVE...
... game over, man. Game over. 5 meters. That's inside the room. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1522
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Posted - 2015.08.10 07:01:24 -
[173] - Quote
Has CCP considered making some changes to the Eve map to mitigate the effects of the Phoebe changes?
Possible changes could include:
-Shorter spans between certain regions -More NPC 0.0 space in/near certain regions
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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Anthar Thebess
1262
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Posted - 2015.08.10 09:57:33 -
[174] - Quote
1) Have CCP considered to make Capital ships more different to partially solve current lack of mobility ? Why each race cannot have different jump range , and different fatigue generation? What will this change this , if people are using Archons or Chimeras?
For example. Why Minmatar Carrier cannot have 50% increased jump range , and higher fatigue generation , while gallente carrier even bit shorter range , but 50% or more fatigue reduction.
Each carrier for specific task. Why all capitals have to be the same?
This way specific carrier can fill specific role.
2) (or) Why we cannot change way we are jumping ? a) (current range) Jump directly to cyno b) (+25% range) Jump to system where cyno is located - 50 % chance for warp drive malfunction for 3minutes , unable to cloak because of the effect c) (+75% range) Jump to constellation where cyno is located - 75 % chance for warp drive malfunction for 3minutes , unable to cloak because of the effect
Increased jump range at grater risk and cost.
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
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Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
285
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Posted - 2015.08.10 11:53:12 -
[175] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:There is ZERO difference between bridging and Jump Bridges
Same range and same exact case for power projection Nonsense. Bridging can be done from within your space into enemy space. Jump Bridges require the same power to hold both ends. This is not power projection, it's domestic travel. Edit to add: What made jump bridges seem like such tools for power projection was the sheer sprawling size of empires - NA's rental space dominated the east side of the map the way the combined allianes of the CFC dominated the west side. So yes, people could use what amounted to the equivalent of continent-spanning highway systems to put the pedal down and cross vast distances. But those jump bridge networks relied on sprawling empires that can't exist anymore. You can't hold the space if you don't have the population density, and if there's an entity with enough people to maintain that population density across 50% of the conquerable systems in EVE... ... game over, man. Game over. 5 meters. That's inside the room.
I might be willing to concede to your idea, on one condition, it only applies to your alliance jump bridges
Jump bridges work by standings, so going from Deklein to Vale in a matter of a few minutes, then bridging to geminate is a bit too much power projection compared to what others have at their disposal, considering only a small portion of that is actual goon controlled space |
Anthar Thebess
1262
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Posted - 2015.08.10 13:42:37 -
[176] - Quote
I totally agree in this. Jump bridges need to change. This can be done in multiple ways - another possibility. Jump bridges don't give you "blue timer" , but using jump bridge give you 5 minute "red timer".
Limiting them to one organization have its downsides - as many groups are split to 2 sub alliances. First keeps all mains , and pvp characters, 2nd where you keep your alts ( cynos , JF, pve chars) , academy or friends.
So the question is :
Will CCP consider changing jump bridge mechanic that they don't provide any fatigue (blue timer) , but instead of it generate only reactivation timer? 5 minute red timer for jumps within same region , and 15 minutes* of red timer for Jump Bridges between regions.
*to block abuse in power projection.
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
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Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1775
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Posted - 2015.08.10 14:33:27 -
[177] - Quote
Would it be possible to tie the capital system mechanic (1 per alliance) to fatigue? Aka, no fatigue when bridging/jumping to or from the capital system? Or perhaps within 10LY of the capital system?
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.
Creator of Burn Jita
Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
938
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Posted - 2015.08.10 15:20:56 -
[178] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:I might be willing to concede to your idea, on one condition, it only applies to your alliance jump bridges
Jump bridges work by standings, so going from Deklein to Vale in a matter of a few minutes, then bridging to geminate is a bit too much power projection compared to what others have at their disposal, considering only a small portion of that is actual goon controlled space
Nor is any fleet doing that likely to be a 100% (or even 50%) goon fleet. So what you're really complaining about isn't jump bridges, it's politics. |
Aralyn Cormallen
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
1246
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Posted - 2015.08.10 15:50:08 -
[179] - Quote
The other main difference with Jump Bridges is they are known, fixed points, and because you can only have one in system, you cannot chain-jump without passing through gates between jump systems (I would argue the Cloud Ring and Fountain residents got more kills out of camping the couple of main jump-bridge links than by doing so anywhere else). If I am in a particular system with a Jump Bridge and a Titan, I can only use the Jump Bridge to go to the one, specific destination system. The Titan can drop me in any system in a 5ly circle. Currently the only pro for having a Jump Bridge is not needing someone to log on a Titan alt, whereas Titan Bridges are flexible in destination, not limited by sov control, less predictable, and faster to set up (you can jump a titan then get him to bridge your ships far faster than you can erect a POS and jump bridge!). Giving a little pro or two to the bridge for local movement (again, I fully agree the multi-region super-highways were bad) doesn't seem unfair or unbalanced. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1202
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Posted - 2015.08.10 15:58:23 -
[180] - Quote
Rad1st wrote:Dont touch anything while it working
it is working but it could still be working better
the "its not broke don't fix it" is not a mantra you should follow
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
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