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Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
113
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Posted - 2015.09.21 00:02:53 -
[511] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote: No. There is no select group who have opportunity or means to acquire one.
60% of world's population still won't have Internet by the end of 2014
Check you first-world privilege mate. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26157
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Posted - 2015.09.21 00:04:40 -
[512] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:No. There is no select group who have opportunity or means to acquire one. Yes there is. See: this entire thread. There are those who can afford PLEX (in-game or out of game) and those who can't.
Quote:There is no "selection" Irrelevant. It's still a select group.
select |s+¬-êl+¢kt| adjective GÇó (of a place or group of people) only used by or consisting of a wealthy or sophisticated elite; exclusive: the opera was seen by a small and highly select audience.
Quote:I'm afraid its you who is wrong this time. You are applying moral imperatives and connotations to the term "privilege" which it does not actually carry. Nope, nope, and nope. In that order. I'm using the term as it is probably most commonly used, without any morals, imperatives, or unusual connotations.
The simple fact remains: PLEX is a privilege, afforded only to the select few who have the means and opportunity to acquire one. Being a commodity does not in any way sit in opposition to this.
Your argument is nonsensical. Your line of reasoning is of the form: - This is orange juice, not lemon juice. - No, it's a liquid.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Cancel Align NOW
Maas Industries
592
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Posted - 2015.09.21 00:06:40 -
[513] - Quote
It is as relevant as any GD discussion.
I'm right. Proposition A.
No am. Article 3.7-3.8 negate proposition A. Proposition B is better.
No you're wrong. Line 36 of clause 7b in Article 3.9 negates 3.7-3.8 so proposition A still stands.
Ahhh I'm correct. Clause 8f of Article 4.9 is a modern usage than 3.9
Wrong wrong wrong. You have misread article 3.8
Umm I'm always right. You need to re read line 35-37 while taking Proposition B in context.
I looked it up in 3 dictionaries, I'm right.
No I am it's Colonel Mustard.
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Salvos Rhoska
1472
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Posted - 2015.09.21 00:08:42 -
[514] - Quote
PLEX is available to everyone, and anyone in EVE and outside of it, by exactly the same means.
No privilege is necessary or required. All you need is money, or isk.
If you are unable to afford PLEX, that does not mean you are "under privileged", or lacking a privilege which those who can afford it have.
It merely means you do not have as much money to spend (or will to do so), ingame or without it, to purchase this commodity.
Its nonsense and quite a perversion of the severe concept of "privilege" for which there are serious historical examples, to walk around in life thinking you are "under privileged" because you can't afford a gold watch or a Ferrari.
PvE v PvP
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Cancel Align NOW
Maas Industries
592
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Posted - 2015.09.21 00:10:02 -
[515] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:PLEX is available to everyone, and anyone in EVE and outside of it, by exactly the same means.
No privilege is necessary or required. All you need is money, or isk.
If you are unable to afford PLEX, that does not mean you are "under privileged", or lacking a privilege which those who can afford it have.
It merely means you do not have as much money to spend (or will to do so), ingame or without it, to purchase this commodity.
Money is a privilege not a right. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26157
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Posted - 2015.09.21 00:11:29 -
[516] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:PLEX is available to everyone Nope. If it were, this thread wouldn't exist.
Quote:All you need is money, or isk. GǪwhich makes it a privilege.
Quote:If you are unable to afford PLEX, that does not mean you are "under privileged", or lacking a privilege which those who can afford it have. That's pretty much exactly what it means: you are not part of the exclusive group that can afford them.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
941
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Posted - 2015.09.21 00:11:41 -
[517] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Primary This Rifter wrote:How the **** is this conversation relevant to anything? Someone said (quite correctly) that PLEX is a privilege, not a right, as a form of counter-argument to the implied notion that players deserve low PLEX prices. We're trying to straighten out if people are arguing against this because they feel PLEX is GÇö or at least should be GÇö a right, or if it's because they don't understand the common idiom. Whether or not players deserve lower plex prices is a red herring. The issue is whether high plex prices are hurting subs, and they might be. |
Salvos Rhoska
1472
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Posted - 2015.09.21 00:13:27 -
[518] - Quote
Cancel Align NOW wrote:Money is a privilege not a right.
Money is certainly not a right. I agree.
How is money a privilege?
If you think that way, why do you not instead then pay the subs of the people whining here, as you are so "privileged"?
PvE v PvP
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Salvos Rhoska
1472
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Posted - 2015.09.21 00:14:28 -
[519] - Quote
Is it a privilege to buy and own a gold watch?
PvE v PvP
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26157
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Posted - 2015.09.21 00:14:28 -
[520] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:Whether or not players deserve lower plex prices is a red herring. The issue is whether high plex prices are hurting subs, and they might be. Oh, absolutely, but you asked for the relevance, and that's how this tangent connects to that overarching question.
It might not score highly on the relevance scale, but it is not completely off topic either.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
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Posted - 2015.09.21 00:20:19 -
[521] - Quote
Eyjolfur "Eyjo" Gu+¦mundsson wrote:
The economy that supports EVE is all founded on in-game currency InterStellar Kredit (ISK) and currency-like Pilot License Extensions (PLEXes); PLEXes can be purchased through real-life currency as well. ThatGÇÖs where the economist Gu+¦mundsson comes in. Alongside standard research scientist fare such as writing internal reports, he has to occasionally intervene to prevent inflation and unintended market consequences. Because PLEXes are tangentially related to the actual, real-life global economy, he helps CCP build protocols for when real life intrudes into the virtual game economy.
I have quoted the Economist hired by CCP to advise them. In this paragraph they imply that real life intrudes into the Eve economy that could result in inflation.
Plex is the bridge between RL cash and isk, to say that RL cost of plex has no effect on in game isk price of plex my be inaccurate.
Here's the link to the full article Full Article
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1584
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Posted - 2015.09.21 00:21:08 -
[522] - Quote
Quote:PLEX is available to everyone, and anyone in EVE and outside of it, by exactly the same means.
No privilege is necessary or required. All you need is money, or isk.
If you are unable to afford PLEX, that does not mean you are "under privileged", or lacking a privilege which those who can afford it have.
It merely means you do not have as much money to spend (or will to do so), ingame or without it, to purchase this commodity.
Its nonsense and quite a perversion of the severe concept of "privilege" for which there are serious historical examples, to walk around in life thinking you are "under privileged" because you can't afford a gold watch or a Ferrari.
That seems contradictory. If the item has a fixed cost or method of being obtained it isn't available to those who can't pay that cost. It therefore isn't available to everyone.
If I don't have the ability to pay the necessary cost it very much means I can't have the item. That excludes me from an ability, through lack of wealth, that others have. That someone doesn't have as much to spend doesn't negate the distinction, it IS the distinction.
Thus PLEX (and pretty much everything else at some level) becomes a privilege of wealth. |
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
113
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Posted - 2015.09.21 00:24:16 -
[523] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:If you think that way, why do you not instead then pay the subs of the people whining here, as you are so "privileged"?
What about the acknowledgement of privileged obligates him to do anything like that? |
Salvos Rhoska
1472
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Posted - 2015.09.21 00:26:39 -
[524] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:If you think that way, why do you not instead then pay the subs of the people whining here, as you are so "privileged"? What about the acknowledgement of privileged obligates him to do anything like that?
What in my statement claims he is obligated?
You are making a false assumption.
The question simply asks why he does not do so.
PvE v PvP
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
602
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Posted - 2015.09.21 00:28:12 -
[525] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Quote:PLEX is available to everyone, and anyone in EVE and outside of it, by exactly the same means.
No privilege is necessary or required. All you need is money, or isk.
If you are unable to afford PLEX, that does not mean you are "under privileged", or lacking a privilege which those who can afford it have.
It merely means you do not have as much money to spend (or will to do so), ingame or without it, to purchase this commodity.
Its nonsense and quite a perversion of the severe concept of "privilege" for which there are serious historical examples, to walk around in life thinking you are "under privileged" because you can't afford a gold watch or a Ferrari. That seems contradictory. If the item has a fixed cost or method of being obtained it isn't available to those who can't pay that cost. It therefore isn't available to everyone. If I don't have the ability to pay the necessary cost it very much means I can't have the item. That excludes me from an ability, through lack of wealth, that others have. That someone doesn't have as much to spend doesn't negate the distinction, it IS the distinction. Thus PLEX (and pretty much everything else at some level) becomes a privilege of wealth.
Privilege of wealth, in-game or real-life.
Now... can we care less about its class definition and care more about the effect of its in-game price on real-life players?
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26158
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Posted - 2015.09.21 00:28:23 -
[526] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Plex is the bridge between RL cash and isk, to say that RL cost of plex has no effect on in game isk price of plex my be inaccurate. It is a bridge between the virtual and RL economies. There are more, such as subscriptions and game activity as a function of available free time.
PLEX, in particular, is almost entirely economy-neutral. In the most direct sense, it's deflationary since it removes ISK from the system with every trade, but it can also indirectly alter the velocity of money.
Oh, and GÇ£may beGÇ¥ Gëá GÇ£isGÇ¥.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
602
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Posted - 2015.09.21 00:28:57 -
[527] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Zihao wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:If you think that way, why do you not instead then pay the subs of the people whining here, as you are so "privileged"? What about the acknowledgement of privileged obligates him to do anything like that? What in my statement claims he is obligated? You are making a false assumption. The question simply asks why he does not do so.
Because he is not a philanthropist and advocating philanthropy pisses me off.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
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Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
113
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Posted - 2015.09.21 00:29:41 -
[528] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:The question simply asks why he does not do so.
OK, so what about acknowledging privilege suggests he would do so? |
Salvos Rhoska
1472
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Posted - 2015.09.21 00:31:27 -
[529] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:How is money a privilege? It is only available to a select group that has the means and opportunities to acquire it. Or, more trivially: it is a privilege by virtue of not being a right.
All services and commodities in this world require payment.
That some people cannot afford these services or commodities (or do not wish to purchase them) is not a matter of privilege or right.
It is merely a matter of exchanging one value for another in common equity.
If only white males past the age of 30 were allowed to buy PLEX, that would be a privilege.
Tippia wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Is it a privilege to buy and own a gold watch? Of course. It satisfies all the necessary criteria. In fact, it even satisfies a slightly different meaning of the word GÇö that of representing a special honour GÇö so it's a privilege in two different ways at once.
What "special honor"? Again with the irrelevant moral connotations.
There is no privilege in the act of buying and owning a commodity. If I buy and own a stack of toilet paper, or pencils, its not a matter of privilege. If I collect 100 pinecones from the forest, I am not privileged. If I stack mud really high, or build a house out of it, I am not privileged.
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Cancel Align NOW
Maas Industries
592
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Posted - 2015.09.21 00:31:38 -
[530] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Cancel Align NOW wrote:Money is a privilege not a right. Money is certainly not a right. I agree. How is money a privilege? If you think that way, why do you not instead then pay the subs of the people whining here, as you are so "privileged"?
Because I have the right to use my privileges as I see fit.
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Salvos Rhoska
1472
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Posted - 2015.09.21 00:32:15 -
[531] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:The question simply asks why he does not do so. OK, so what about acknowledging privilege suggests he would do so? I asked why he would not do so.
The question is quite specific, if you would simply read it instead of forcing imaginary implications upon it.
PvE v PvP
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Salvos Rhoska
1472
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Posted - 2015.09.21 00:37:42 -
[532] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:That seems contradictory. If the item has a fixed cost or method of being obtained it isn't available to those who can't pay that cost. It therefore isn't available to everyone. It is available to everyone. Whether they can (or will) pay for it, does not change the availability of this commodity.
I don't have the money to buy a 100ft yacht and a private jet.
Never would it occur to me to consider myself as lacking in privilege because I cannot buy things beyond my means.
PvE v PvP
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26159
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Posted - 2015.09.21 00:38:24 -
[533] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:All services and commodities in this world require payment. GǪand guess what that means?
Quote:That some people cannot afford these services or commodities (or do not wish to purchase them) is not a matter of privilege or right. Incorrect. It is entirely a matter of privilege, except in the cases when access to a particular service or commodity is deemed a right and therefore is subsidised to ensure universal access.
Quote:What "special honor"? Again with the irrelevant moral connotations. You know that gold watches are often rewarded as a mark of long and distinguished service, yes? It's not irrelevant, and it has nothing to do with moral. It's just you not being familiar with the meaning of the word, or with the symbolism of gold watches.
Quote:There is no privilege in the act of buying and owning a commodity. Of course there is, as long as buying and owning them is exclusively available to a particular group; as long as purchase and ownership is not a right.
Again. The something is either a privilege or a right. This is the dichotomy we're talking about. Being a commodity does not in any way, shape, or form alter this dichotomy. Any given commodity will be placed in one of those two, mutually exclusive categories.
If it is not a right, it is a privilege. If it is not a privilege, it is a right. Whether or not a commodity is a privilege or a right does not depend on its status as a commodity because that is an entirely separate and unrelated axis of categorisation.
Quote:Whether they can (or will) pay for it, does not change the availability of this commodity. Yes it does. If you cannot pay for it, it is not available to you.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
114
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Posted - 2015.09.21 00:40:56 -
[534] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:imaginary implications
That would be a very indirect way of describing idiom and common vernacular, yes. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1585
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Posted - 2015.09.21 00:43:10 -
[535] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:That seems contradictory. If the item has a fixed cost or method of being obtained it isn't available to those who can't pay that cost. It therefore isn't available to everyone. It is available to everyone. Whether they can (or will) pay for it, does not change the availability of this commodity. But it does. If I cannot or will not pay the required price I cannot have the commodity. It is unavailable to me. That I am granted the ability to access the purchase medium for the item is not the same as being able to have the item.
In the end the ability for only white males to purchase it and the commodity being beyond my ability to afford but otherwise available both prevent me from having the item. There is no difference in the end effect of these 2 distinctions. |
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
114
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Posted - 2015.09.21 00:45:28 -
[536] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote: If only white males past the age of 30 were allowed to buy PLEX, that would be a privilege.
The english word for that is "racist." |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3361
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Posted - 2015.09.21 00:46:48 -
[537] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Aaron wrote:I think that Eve has become a capitalist society, CCP want too much for plex lets face it, in the UK a plex is -ú16.99 which is -ú7.00 more than the monthly sub which has prompted the plex sellers to sell at a high price.
Plex prices do not affect me because I sub my 2 accounts. All I have done is read what most of the plex buyers are saying and I have come to the conclusion that we will see numbers drop yet again. CCP should listen to the people who plex their account, it does seem as if they are being ignored.
We will see lots of people cancel their 2nd and 3rd accounts because they are no longer able to generate much profit for the player, I get that people can diversify and go into other areas of the game like FW, WH etc.
Has CCP made any statement about revising the real life cost of plex?
I ask this because I can see this game being ruined, Level with me here, why is the RL plex price an extra 70% on top of the sub price? Agreed; that price differential is indefensible. CCP urgently need to get more people logging in to keep the game healthy, and dropping the RL price of PLEX to a similar, albeit slightly higher, level than a 1 month sub would be a big step towards that.
This would likely also help the in game price. If the RL price dropped more players might buy PLEX for sale in game. Eventually a new equilibrium would be reached, but the point is the in game price would drop as well.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3361
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Posted - 2015.09.21 00:52:37 -
[538] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Sweet. I'll cash out once it hits 1.2 bil. I got greedy last time and it collapsed before I could sell off.
Have you sold?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Salvos Rhoska
1472
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Posted - 2015.09.21 00:53:47 -
[539] - Quote
Apparently paying for a service or a commodity is considered a "privilege". Ergo, apparently getting paid for your service and work, is also a "privilege".
Apparently the things that you cannot afford are "not available". They just magically disappear because you aren't paying for them.
I'm astounded and I fold out. Have it your way. I'll have it mine.
PvE v PvP
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Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1518
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Posted - 2015.09.21 00:59:39 -
[540] - Quote
If the price of a PLEX or EVE SUB is beyond the means of anyone living on the Island of Outer Greater Birdania that is no different to them being banned from using it. Its a semantic argument relying on dictionary definitions instead of reality.
You get these examples all the time. In my country a law was introduced that puts very onerous punishment on a particular type of petty crimes that is only committed by teenagers of a particular racial minority. The laws specifically applied to children and give a jail sentence for a misdemeanor that adults would have received a minor fine for committing.
Despite the law as written applying equally to all races it actually was targeting a particular minority group and only effected them. The UN regards the argument that the laws apply equally to all as specious and irrelevant to the actual situation.
This situation is similar. |
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