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Henzo Enecha
Project White Box
0
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Posted - 2015.08.09 14:29:10 -
[1] - Quote
So I heard one day, that Tengus are quite effective in doing stuff. So I went ahead and made myself a few fits in EFT's latest version.
Before I go into any detail of the fits mentioned above, I should say, that a Tengu is capable of facetanking a 10/10 DED Complex with a fit, that has lesser stats. AND, if you want to do something else with it, just bring a mobile depot with you to refit into other specializations, ex. Covert ops nullified low/null explo, or general traveling.
The fit I used, Is not (too) very expensive, sure it has it's 'pimp' parts, but the price is well under a billion.
The fit has 3780dps tank against Guristas Pirates, with a Pith X-Type Large SB 696dps with a range of 30.4km with Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II's It moves 633m/s with 10mn T2 Afterburner on On top of all that, it is cap stable at 40%! And the full thing costs only 700mil in Jita 4-4!
Note: Omni tank with 300mil invuls (Gistum B) 1946dps tank remaining cap stable is possible, but very expensive. Other option are Domination Adaptive Invuls, which are only 70mil a piece, yielding 1273 dps tank against omni damage.
Now this all brings the question, why? Why is this kind of thing even possible? Why should this even exist? Can any other Strategic cruiser (or any subcap ship) pull these numbers?
Don't believe me? Look at this, and try it out yourself if you'd like: EFT Screencapture of the fit with all skills level V
Now ofcourse this is purely on paper, due to my current set of skills I would be able to fly it in around 3 months forward from this date, yet it is unbelievable that it can pull those numbers, even on paper.
Why would you even fly any other ship when you can get a Tengu? Or should this be nerfed, which would possibly create more diversity in usage of ships?
I would like ask CCP, how the f*ck can a cruiser pull a 3,7k dps tank, facetank 10/10 DED sites, and be balanced, or is it balanced after all?
//If this is in the wrong subforum, feel free to move it. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32158
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Posted - 2015.08.09 14:46:45 -
[2] - Quote
CCP's definition of balance depends on a ship's popularity by usage. All that work and all those commas were overkill. If a ship is used too much, it gets looked at.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
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Eternus8lux8lucis
Primus Inc. LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
474
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Posted - 2015.08.09 14:50:27 -
[3] - Quote
You should also notice that they have high resists like the other T3s do to only certain damage types. Its one of the bonuses, so yes, by tanking their supreme resist areas you can get some insane numbers. Now try doing that to sanshas, where they have relatively low resists... 0 in EM natively and where kinetic damage does its worst to EM damage profiles.
If you always judge the supreme optimal settings for something they always seem OP in comparison to anything else. I could hand you killmail after killmail of some of my poor corpies who have tried and failed time and time again to run sites in sanshas space in a tengu and just died in bling fits.
Strength isnt measured in numbers but in force of will. For if one motived willful individual stands many will fall around him that are weak.
http://tinyurl.com/YarrFace
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Yourmoney Mywallet
Jita Institute of Applied Monetary Manipulation
514
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Posted - 2015.08.09 14:53:03 -
[4] - Quote
Nerf ALL the things! |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
8972
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Posted - 2015.08.09 14:53:33 -
[5] - Quote
Henzo Enecha wrote: Now ofcourse this is purely on paper...
That's the thing.
EFT is like fantasy football. What you make there and what actually happens in the real game are often very different.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
25565
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Posted - 2015.08.09 14:56:19 -
[6] - Quote
Henzo Enecha wrote:Now this all brings the question, why? Why is this kind of thing even possible? Why should this even exist? Can any other Strategic cruiser (or any subcap ship) pull these numbers? Because otherwise we wouldn't have loot pi+¦atas, and everyone wants those.
And yes, it's not all that difficult to make subcaps do that GÇö going the T3 route is almost just pointlessly (ISK and SP-)expensive.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
14021
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Posted - 2015.08.09 14:58:32 -
[7] - Quote
If there is something wrong with the Tengu, I'm sure CCP's response will sensibly nerf each and every Caldari ship right along with it.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Henzo Enecha
Project White Box
0
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Posted - 2015.08.09 15:03:06 -
[8] - Quote
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote: run sites in sanshas space in a tengu.
https://i.gyazo.com/161598412350f248ae33b30cd0284bdb.png https://i.gyazo.com/764a55cbaccf2f926207286207e93476.png Sansha space fits, 550-600 dps with 2000-1300dps tank.
Tippia wrote: And yes, it's not all that difficult to make subcaps do that Can you give me an example of ships that can do that? Bonus points for other T3 Cruiser fits. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
25566
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Posted - 2015.08.09 15:15:53 -
[9] - Quote
Henzo Enecha wrote:Can you give me an example of ships that can do that? Bonus points for other T3 Cruiser fits. Any ship that has good-to-greate base resists against the relevant damage type and which can fit similar modules. Generally, this means you're looking at shield-capable T2 ships with a good set of midslots.
The Ishtar was insane before it lost a midslot and could solo pretty much any and all Gurista/Serpentis exploration content. Then again, it can almost do it with armour too, and gain the benefit of having fuckall signature compared to a shield ship. Minmatar ships can generally pull the tank off, but suffer in the damage output department.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
374
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Posted - 2015.08.09 15:24:05 -
[10] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Henzo Enecha wrote:Can you give me an example of ships that can do that? Bonus points for other T3 Cruiser fits. Any ship that has good-to-greate base resists against the relevant damage type and which can fit similar modules. Generally, this means you're looking at shield-capable T2 ships with a good set of midslots. The Ishtar was insane before it lost a midslot and could solo pretty much any and all Gurista/Serpentis exploration content. Then again, it can almost do it with armour too, and gain the benefit of having fuckall signature compared to a shield ship. Minmatar ships can generally pull the tank off, but suffer in the damage output department.
Not only this, but also if you nerf the Tengu down because it can run one or two of the pirate DEDs really well, you would just have another ship rise up in place as the best. If you keep nerfing the best ships for specific jobs to eliminate specific reasons to use it... then no ship will be good at particularly anything.
I can get a Sacrilege to plow through Angel sites because of the resists and damage output. I can get a Loki to do extremely well running as drone bunny or wh webber. You can even get a Confessor to pwn everything in certain WH conditions even though it is only a destroyer.
Nerf everything, and you have nothing left.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
8973
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Posted - 2015.08.09 15:26:54 -
[11] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Henzo Enecha wrote:Can you give me an example of ships that can do that? Bonus points for other T3 Cruiser fits. The Ishtar was insane before it lost a midslot and could solo pretty much any and all Gurista/Serpentis exploration content. Then again, it can almost do it with armour too, and gain the benefit of having fuckall signature compared to a shield ship. Minmatar ships can generally pull the tank off, but suffer in the damage output department.
Kind of proving the OP's point, aren't you?
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
25566
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Posted - 2015.08.09 15:29:40 -
[12] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Kind of proving the OP's point, aren't you? I'm saying that a non-shieldtanking ship can do the same and that even after being nerfed repeatedly and using a less efficient tanking method, it can still do it but not quite to the same insane level. The Ishtar was insane because you could almost get the same effect by T2 passive-tank it GÇö never mind fitting any expensive stuff.
I don't quite see how this proves that the Tengu is overpowered or that it's somehow unique among subcaps.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
374
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Posted - 2015.08.09 15:32:06 -
[13] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Tippia wrote:Henzo Enecha wrote:Can you give me an example of ships that can do that? Bonus points for other T3 Cruiser fits. The Ishtar was insane before it lost a midslot and could solo pretty much any and all Gurista/Serpentis exploration content. Then again, it can almost do it with armour too, and gain the benefit of having fuckall signature compared to a shield ship. Minmatar ships can generally pull the tank off, but suffer in the damage output department. Kind of proving the OP's point, aren't you? Mr Epeen
But that is more of a problem with ACs than it is with the Loki. If they game ACs some love...
But 600dps on a Loki isn't that bad, considering you can change damage types and don't have the same problems of damage application. Tengu gets no where near 600dps against smaller rats.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
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Ripblade Falconpunch
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
339
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Posted - 2015.08.09 15:40:16 -
[14] - Quote
Paper EFT DPS does not equal applied DPS.
The fit you are showing is tailored specifically for running one type of rats with one damage type. Specialized ships will do better than non-specialized ships, I'm not sure what your point is. Get a 4k active omnitank out of one that does 600 DPS and applies it equally well across all targets, and doesn't cost you 4 days of skill training if you get jumped and lose one and then we'll talk.
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
374
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Posted - 2015.08.09 15:48:58 -
[15] - Quote
[Cerberus, New Setup 1] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Power Diagnostic System II Capacitor Power Relay II
Pith X-Type Large Shield Booster Pith X-Type Kinetic Deflection Field Shield Boost Amplifier II Shield Boost Amplifier II 10MN Afterburner II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Hobgoblin II x3
There... cheaper, longer range, more dps and speed and cap stable and I don't waste 4.5days training back whatever Bob takes from me when I get whelped
What did you want to nerf again?
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
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Henzo Enecha
Project White Box
0
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Posted - 2015.08.09 16:03:05 -
[16] - Quote
Ripblade Falconpunch wrote:Paper EFT DPS does not equal applied DPS.
The fit you are showing is tailored specifically for running one type of rats with one damage type. Specialized ships will do better than non-specialized ships, I'm not sure what your point is. Get a 4k active omnitank out of one that does 600 DPS and applies it equally well across all targets, and doesn't cost you 4 days of skill training if you get jumped and lose one and then we'll talk.
I couldn't quite do 4k omni dps tank. But here is a 2,5bil fit for start: https://i.gyazo.com/ba6314b10796291c75b42820359208dd.png 2674dps omni tank, cap stable at 57% 646dps 25.3km range, and hits smaller targets with the Rigor Catalyst rig.
The Boost amplifiers are quite overkill tho, drop them to T2 versions and you can still get 2000dps tank against omni damage. Fiddle with deadspace invuls, to maybe find cheaper and do the same with the Boost Amplifiers, to balance out the price but still get around 2000dps omni tank. |
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
1004
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Posted - 2015.08.09 16:06:06 -
[17] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Kind of proving the OP's point, aren't you? I'm saying that a non-shieldtanking ship can do the same and that even after being nerfed repeatedly and using a less efficient tanking method, it can still do it but not quite to the same insane level. The Ishtar was insane because you could almost get the same effect by T2 passive-tank it GÇö never mind fitting any expensive stuff. I don't quite see how this proves that the Tengu is overpowered or that it's somehow unique among subcaps. I've played around with fittings and I'm not seeing how the other subcaps can do the same. The T2 cruisers that get bonused shield resists are the Eagle, Onyx, Broadsword. Fitting the same tank modules on all the ships being compared the Tengu gets much higher EHP.
2 LSE, 1 Invul, 1 EM Ward, 1 DCU and Field Extender rigs: Tengu gets 139,000 EHP Eagle gets 91,000 EHP Onyx gets 92,000 EHP
Tengu fit this way has an extra mid compared to the rest, yet the same amount of lows. Same amount of high slots and turret hard points as the Eagle. Same weapon bonuses as the Eagle. A little slower but a T2 polycarb reverses that, still more tank, still the extra mid slot and can fit a bunch of other subs to do nifty things like increase sensor strength. Tengu subs of note are supp screening and mag infus bay.
You will find the same trend with armor. Compare the Proteus with other armor HACs. The Sac is the only one that gets a resist bonus and it's got a measly 5 lows.
There are all our dominion
Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
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Henzo Enecha
Project White Box
0
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Posted - 2015.08.09 16:33:32 -
[18] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:[Cerberus, New Setup 1] *FIT*
There... cheaper, longer range, more dps and speed and cap stable and I don't waste 4.5days training back whatever Bob takes from me when I get whelped
What did you want to nerf again?
https://i.gyazo.com/118000bb0c4143405600571c1abf0851.png
I managed to swap around the Tengu fit to be a bit cheaper than the Cerberus fit, while keeping the Tengu's stats higher. I also solved the range issue, resulting in nearly the same range as the Cerberus. I also have the Rigot Catalyst T2 -rig that helps me hit smaller ships.
But hey, I really like the Cerberus fit, it requires much less skill training to work. And ofcourse you can go a few hunred million more pimp on the Tengu to gain more dps and/or tank.
Prices: http://evepraisal.com/e/7007380 - Tengu http://evepraisal.com/e/7007401 - Cerb |
HeXxploiT
Big Diggers Get Off My Lawn
172
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Posted - 2015.08.09 16:47:46 -
[19] - Quote
Henzo Enecha wrote:
Why would you even fly any other ship when you can get a Tengu?
Clearly you don't fly a Tengu that much or you would be aware of the downside. All the T3 cruisers can do some pretty outstanding things but the fact is that it takes a great deal of time(years) to work it up to its potential and when you lose one you're losing a lot of isk.
All the T3's are special but you pay the price for flying them. Quit trying to nerf everything into "wowness". |
Naraish Adarn
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
137
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Posted - 2015.08.09 16:53:06 -
[20] - Quote
i dont think needs to be nerfed or buffed since it still does painfully in a fire with neuts applied to it |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
25569
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Posted - 2015.08.09 16:54:39 -
[21] - Quote
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:I've played around with fittings and I'm not seeing how the other subcaps can do the same. The T2 cruisers that get bonused shield resists are the Eagle, Onyx, Broadsword. Fitting the same tank modules on all the ships being compared the Tengu gets much higher EHP. Try not fitting them like Tengus, and at least try to keep the comparison the same.
Why are you talking EHP all of a sudden?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16478
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Posted - 2015.08.09 17:49:22 -
[22] - Quote
HeXxploiT wrote:Henzo Enecha wrote:
Why would you even fly any other ship when you can get a Tengu?
Clearly you don't fly a Tengu that much or you would be aware of the downside. All the T3 cruisers can do some pretty outstanding things but the fact is that it takes a great deal of time(years) to work it up to its potential and when you lose one you're losing a lot of isk. All the T3's are special but you pay the price for flying them. Quit trying to nerf everything into "wowness".
It doesn't take years to get a good tengu going and the t3s do need to be nerfed rather hard for many reasons.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16842
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Posted - 2015.08.09 17:50:12 -
[23] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:[Cerberus, New Setup 1] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Power Diagnostic System II Capacitor Power Relay II
Pith X-Type Large Shield Booster Pith X-Type Kinetic Deflection Field Shield Boost Amplifier II Shield Boost Amplifier II 10MN Afterburner II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Hobgoblin II x3
There... cheaper, longer range, more dps and speed and cap stable and I don't waste 4.5days training back whatever Bob takes from me when I get whelped
What did you want to nerf again?
Ssshh!
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Iain Cariaba
1758
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Posted - 2015.08.09 18:12:06 -
[24] - Quote
Actually, all the people arguing whether or not the tengu needs some new nerf are forgetting one thing:
OP's entirempremise of the OPness of the tengu is based on a PvE fit, and ships in EvE are not balanced around PvE.
A t1 pvp frigate fit for mediocre kinetic tank and throwing EM damage will OMGWTFPWN a ratting tengu.
Edit: Oh, OP, I have an Ishtar fit and a Gila fit that will both, as you put it, facetank a Maze.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Will troll for a t-shirt.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16478
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Posted - 2015.08.09 18:52:47 -
[25] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:Actually, all the people arguing whether or not the tengu needs some new nerf are forgetting one thing:
OP's entirempremise of the OPness of the tengu is based on a PvE fit, and ships in EvE are not balanced around PvE.
A t1 pvp frigate fit for mediocre kinetic tank and throwing EM damage will OMGWTFPWN a ratting tengu.
Edit: Oh, OP, I have an Ishtar fit and a Gila fit that will both, as you put it, facetank a Maze.
T3s are very overpowered in pvp.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16842
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Posted - 2015.08.09 18:55:29 -
[26] - Quote
The Op is like the 100,000th person to cleverly work out that T3s have a bunch of EHP. Well done mate, that's kind of their thing.
See, T3s can't outdo the t2 cruisers in their speciality; The tengu can't fling missiles further than a Cerb or ECM harder than a Falcon; the Loki can't go as fast as a Vagabond or web as far as a Huginn; a Proteus can't do as much damage as a Deimos or damp as well as an Arazu; a Legoin cannot project lasers as well as a Zealot or rep as well as a Guardian. And so so.
What they can do is stay on the field under circumstances that T2 cruisers cannot endure, and fit for some specialist stuff like bubble nullification.
That's OK. They're meant to be able to do stuff T2 cruisers can't do as long as they can't do the T2 Cruiser's specific job better than it can.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Henzo Enecha
Project White Box
0
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Posted - 2015.08.09 19:18:23 -
[27] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:The Op is like the 100,000th person to cleverly work out that T3s have a bunch of EHP. Well done mate, that's kind of their thing.
Tengu, Tengu has a bunch of EHP, other T3's can't really compete with it. As shown in my original post, I have 3700dps tank against Guristas, cap stable with ~700dps. And omni tank that with 2000dps tank with same damage.
Not to talk about to gameplay either... With any other T3 Cruiser you try and keep the rats in your optimal ranges so you can deal damage to them with your guns thus having to constantly move around the site. Take a Tengu, drop a piece of carbon in a container in the middle of the site and orbit it. Then proceed to press F1 until you are done.
Is any other T3 capable of doing that? If so, please let me know how you fit your ships. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
25570
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Posted - 2015.08.09 19:27:38 -
[28] - Quote
Henzo Enecha wrote:Tengu, Tengu has a bunch of EHP, other T3's can't really compete with it. Eeeh. Ehehehe. HEHHEgigglespurt.
Yeah, the Tengu is certainly the T3 ship that is famous for its EHP.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16844
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Posted - 2015.08.09 19:49:14 -
[29] - Quote
Henzo Enecha wrote:Malcanis wrote:The Op is like the 100,000th person to cleverly work out that T3s have a bunch of EHP. Well done mate, that's kind of their thing.
Tengu, Tengu has a bunch of EHP, other T3's can't really compete with it. As shown in my original post, I have 3700dps tank against Guristas, cap stable with ~700dps. And omni tank that with 2000dps tank with same damage. Not to talk about to gameplay either... With any other T3 Cruiser you try and keep the rats in your optimal ranges so you can deal damage to them with your guns thus having to constantly move around the site. Take a Tengu, drop a piece of carbon in a container in the middle of the site and orbit it. Then proceed to press F1 until you are done. Is any other T3 capable of doing that? If so, please let me know how you fit your ships.
Wait are you plexing with a Tengu?
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16480
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Posted - 2015.08.09 19:51:39 -
[30] - Quote
Malcanis wrote: See, T3s can't outdo the t2 cruisers in their speciality
They invalidate most t2 cruisers, most BC, command ships, and rival battleships in tank. That's some 57 ships the invalidate or match in power.
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