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Quri
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Posted - 2006.12.08 02:27:00 -
[1]
I've expirienced a problem and I can't understand why it had appeared.
I've found a sell order for 1k items for say 1k ISK eatch. All I knew about this item is that I can refine it and sell minerals for say 5k ISK.
So I bought 1k items, refinded them, sold minerals and expected about 4kk ISK profit, but found only 100k loss.
When I looked at the transactions and started to count, I found out that I've sold less minerals, than it was supposed (about 48-56% loss in minerals amount total), but still I've sold all I had after refine.
I've checked it out with another items and discovered the following: For example if I take one item and refine it I get 1000 units of pyerite. But if I take a stack of 1000 same items and refind them at once I get only 50k units of pyerite. So it's 50% less then if I refine 1000 same things separately.
The most strange thing for me is difference in %% loss in various minerals. for example I have 50% pyerite loss, but only 35% of tritanium loss. All items were reprocessed in the same station and in the same time.
Is there any explanation of that? Or maybe am I'm completely stupid?
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Kesslan Osefice
Panther's Paw Industries Ltd
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Posted - 2006.12.08 06:57:00 -
[2]
Are you taking into account the following factors with ore:
Quality of ore: Basic, Middle (+5 perceont), High (+10 percent) Example: Kernite, luminous Kernite, Fiery Kernite
Your Refining Skill: To get 100% refine with no waste you need at least a minimum of 3 unless I'm Mistaken.
The Quality of the Refinery your using: Some stations are at base 50 percent, some are far lower.
Your Refinery Efficiency Skill: This affects the base refinery. If you have this maxed out even a terrible refinery can give out a decent (and close to) 100 percent refined ratio.
Your standings to the company that owns the station: For example in Empire all refining is taxed. The higher your standings, the less 'tax' there is on the refine. If your standings are high enough you get 100% return, no tax. Whigh decent standings you get about a 2.5 percent tax raitio on the minerals returned.
Also keep in mind just how many units of ore it takes to crank out X units of minerals. Not all ores are the same. SOme require 333 units (veldspar, Pyroxes, scordite etc), others require 400, 500 etc. SOme like blue ice only actually need 1 unit.
I'm pretty sure you'll find your problem among those. Also take advantage of the various tools. I dont have the links with me unfortunately as I"m at work but there are some IGB avaible tools that will show you using your current skill levels just how much of what kindo f mineral you'll get back from X ammount of ore, and if you fill in all the fields properly it will also take into account the taxes etc (Thoug hthis might not apply at a 0.0 outpost. I'm not quite sure how refining at thsoe works as I've never actually used one) ___ This space for rent! ___ Yay we finally have a forum: http://pantherspaw.freehostia.com/ |
Haywood Jahblomy
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Posted - 2006.12.08 07:19:00 -
[3]
i believe he's mostly talking about reprocessing "cheap" loot. but yes, when reprocessing those, rounding can hit hard. but it should be nowhere near 50%.... my guess is, you were at a different station, probably even one with only 35% base refinery stats. maybe even imperfect scrapmetal reprocessing skills and, to top it all off, an evil enough standing towards the owning npc corp... however - it'd have to be a combination aof _all_ of these to explain such a large loss
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Kesslan Osefice
Panther's Paw Industries Ltd
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Posted - 2006.12.08 08:04:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Haywood Jahblomy i believe he's mostly talking about reprocessing "cheap" loot. but yes, when reprocessing those, rounding can hit hard. but it should be nowhere near 50%.... my guess is, you were at a different station, probably even one with only 35% base refinery stats. maybe even imperfect scrapmetal reprocessing skills and, to top it all off, an evil enough standing towards the owning npc corp... however - it'd have to be a combination aof _all_ of these to explain such a large loss
Ah yeah forgot to mention that one, but it works the same way with reprocessing loot really. As you say for that there's scrap metal processing. Everything has a specific ammount of minerals it will return. The trick is just to figgure out what exactly that limit is, and pay close attention to the 'waste' and the 'tax' ammount your being offered before you accept the refine.
There's been plenty of times I've moved stuff to another station beacuse of it's poor refinery. ___ This space for rent! ___ Yay we finally have a forum: http://pantherspaw.freehostia.com/ |
SencneS
Amarr Keepers of the Holy Bagel
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Posted - 2006.12.08 22:24:00 -
[5]
I do this all the time, there are a few key items which I KNOW I can get about 6K more in minerals.
They key is Refining Efficiency and Standing. I get no TAX taken out because of my standing, I also get 99.5% of the mineral return which means unless I'm reprocessing a lot in a single go I get almost all the minerals.
Here is a good tip, 1600mm Steel Plates, and Smartbombs.
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Nimie
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Posted - 2006.12.09 00:17:00 -
[6]
you get less when you refine in a group?
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Kesslan Osefice
Panther's Paw Industries Ltd
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Posted - 2006.12.09 03:58:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Nimie you get less when you refine in a group?
Well that all depends on just how big that 'group' is and if you have tax and/or waste. If your at 100 percent refine you wont have any waste. But you can still have tax. However if your standings are also very high towards the NPC company (At least for NPC controled stations) you wont have any tax either. Which means you get back 100% of the value unless I'm some how mistaken about it.
Which means you can under such circumstances, get back every bit it's worth. If however say... you were taxed a percentage it seems to get abit odd. Often I'm refining where my standings reduce tax to about 2.5 percent. ANd if I go and melt down say.. an item that gives a few units of zydrine or megacyte. I'll often melt it down in small lots. Because if I do it all togeather I get taxed on the mega/zyd. Where as if I do it in small lots I get all or at least alot more of it than I would otherwise.
For the other minerals like Pyrite, Tritanium etc. I really could care less and I just melt it down in one huge batch. It's only the really expensive minerals and such that I take the time to do things in small lots with. ___ This space for rent! ___ Yay we finally have a forum: http://pantherspaw.freehostia.com/ |
Nimie
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Posted - 2006.12.09 04:53:00 -
[8]
wouldn't you only get 4k or so each time for doing that?
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Kesslan Osefice
Panther's Paw Industries Ltd
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Posted - 2006.12.09 08:50:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Nimie wouldn't you only get 4k or so each time for doing that?
Well if it's just an item that gives one unit of mega or zyd. Basically... yes. If it was something like a basic siege launcher if I recall correctly you get something like 33 megacyte out of one. It all depends on what your melting down. And even if it was only 2-3 units of mega/zyd etc a shot. So what? I build up my scrap modules till there's a huge pile to do anywayj, wait till I get bored and dont feel like mining or what ever and do it then.
Besides, it doesnt actually take that long to do it. You get used to it after abit and get to know just how big a group you can melt down before you start loosing mineral type X. It's mostly stuff I just do when I get home and have only about two hours to do stuff. So maybe i"ll have one of my chars zipping off to go pickup/drop off something and the other melting down everything etc. I generally just do stuff like that when I'm killing time anyway. ___ This space for rent! ___ Yay we finally have a forum: http://pantherspaw.freehostia.com/ |
Quri
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Posted - 2006.12.12 02:43:00 -
[10]
Still no answer to my question.
It's alll would be great about that skills, ref. rate, standing, etc. BUT.
Example AGAIN.
I have 1011 Smartbombs in 3 stacks in THE SAME station. 1 smartbomb in one stack, 10 in another and 1000 in the last one. I Refine them AT THE SAME TIME.
The result is: 1 smartbomb refined = 1000 trit + 100 isogen 10 smartbombs = 9500 trit + 970 isogen 1000 smartbombs = 670k trit + 72k isogen.
And my question is: WTF is THIS??? I have increasing %% loss with amount of items growing, but it is different for different matereals. How can this be explained?
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.12.12 02:50:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Quri Still no answer to my question.
It's alll would be great about that skills, ref. rate, standing, etc. BUT.
Example AGAIN.
I have 1011 Smartbombs in 3 stacks in THE SAME station. 1 smartbomb in one stack, 10 in another and 1000 in the last one. I Refine them AT THE SAME TIME.
The result is: 1 smartbomb refined = 1000 trit + 100 isogen 10 smartbombs = 9500 trit + 970 isogen 1000 smartbombs = 670k trit + 72k isogen.
And my question is: WTF is THIS??? I have increasing %% loss with amount of items growing, but it is different for different matereals. How can this be explained?
The last station had a 30% refinery.
The first station you had higher standing with.
-[23] Member-
Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON! |
Quri
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Posted - 2006.12.12 03:00:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Quri on 12/12/2006 03:00:26
Originally by: Dark Shikari The last station had a 30% refinery.
The first station you had higher standing with.[/quote
But where was only ONE station.
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.12.12 03:10:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Quri But where was only ONE station.
Are you sure they were the same type of smartbomb?
-[23] Member-
Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON! |
Jleno
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Posted - 2006.12.12 03:13:00 -
[14]
Quri I have experienced the very same problem that you are having. For me it was crystal compounds from agent missions. I found if i seperate them i get more minerals then if i leave them all together however i have never experienced the losses that you have and i have no explination for you.
The best i can tell you is to take the time to seperate each one and reap the benifits that way i still havent found a way around that.
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Quri
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Posted - 2006.12.13 13:05:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Are you sure they were the same type of smartbomb?
Yeh, I'm completely sure. Still hope I've got a piace of brain in my head ;)
Same stuff, same station, terrible losses. Seems it's a bag or smth. Is there any way to get CCP comment on this?
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Yllse
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Posted - 2006.12.13 16:00:00 -
[16]
If you don't have perfect skills you will lose more mins to waste the larger the stack you reprocess. I'm not 100% sure how it's calculated but I've had this happen often. For example, (with drone droppings in this case) I can refine a stack of 100 opulent compound and lose about 10% of the morphite. If I refine two stacks of 50 each I lose about 8%. If I refine 10 stacks of 10 each I lose none to waste.
Refine smaller stacks and you won't lose as much.
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Pang Grohl
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.12.13 18:28:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Quri Still no answer to my question.
It's alll would be great about that skills, ref. rate, standing, etc. BUT.
Example AGAIN.
I have 1011 Smartbombs in 3 stacks in THE SAME station. 1 smartbomb in one stack, 10 in another and 1000 in the last one. I Refine them AT THE SAME TIME.
The result is: 1 smartbomb refined = 1000 trit + 100 isogen 10 smartbombs = 9500 trit + 970 isogen 1000 smartbombs = 670k trit + 72k isogen.
And my question is: WTF is THIS??? I have increasing %% loss with amount of items growing, but it is different for different matereals. How can this be explained?
The closest I can come to an explanation has to do with the fact that EVE truncates partial units of things. Your example is missing data on what the loss to waste (refining) and tax are (standing), and what the reported percentages for each are. We'd also need to to know what level of scrap metal processing you have to accurately determine how much material is being lost to truncation, and how much that loss is magnified by refining stacks.
Personally I would bug report your example above with the extra details & send screen shots of the reprocessing interface, and actual results the with the bug report.
Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting) |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.12.14 18:17:00 -
[18]
There is absolutely no way the losses should be as great as he is saying here. Though I have a feeling he is making up numbers to illustrate his point. If they are exact numbers then there is just something wrong. If it was waste/etc causing the issues it would cause much larger issues with 10 units than it is... 10 would be enough to see a large amount of waste, even if it was only one unit of minerals per.
I'd be curious about 100 unit refine values as well... and EXACT numbers. If you can't give us 100% exact numbers from in game, the base efficiency of your stations, your skills, standing, etc... then you can't expect people to give you a good answer. If you're shy then you shouldn't expect a good answer :)
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Pang Grohl
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.12.14 20:13:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Shadarle There is absolutely no way the losses should be as great as he is saying here. Though I have a feeling he is making up numbers to illustrate his point. If they are exact numbers then there is just something wrong. If it was waste/etc causing the issues it would cause much larger issues with 10 units than it is... 10 would be enough to see a large amount of waste, even if it was only one unit of minerals per.
I'd be curious about 100 unit refine values as well... and EXACT numbers. If you can't give us 100% exact numbers from in game, the base efficiency of your stations, your skills, standing, etc... then you can't expect people to give you a good answer. If you're shy then you shouldn't expect a good answer :)
I tested this last night & comparing 1 unit reprocessed to 10 units reprocessed provided the expected results. Reprocessing 10 units moved the decimal one place to the right in the calculations.
Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting) |
Sir Bart
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.12.17 22:40:00 -
[20]
This is clearly a bug, one of the guys who tested it should be filing a bug report.
-Bart
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Mech Cannonade
Gallente Winters Court
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Posted - 2007.08.24 19:10:00 -
[21]
Did anyone ever file this? was it fixed? Is it still an issue?
------------------------------------ He who laughs last, thinks slowest. |
Matalino
Gallente Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2007.08.24 19:30:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Mech Cannonade Did anyone ever file this? was it fixed? Is it still an issue?
I have done a lot of refining, and have not found any bugs like this. I would say that we can let this thread rest in peace.
Originally by: CCP Prism X P.S. If you think you're reading some information through the lines here, you're wrong. I'm actually just bored.
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Pirlouit
Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2007.08.25 20:59:00 -
[23]
This thread was locked due to bumping old thread . Please do not revive very old thread thx. please email [email protected] with any questions. Pirlouit
forum rules | email |
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