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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 12 post(s) |
xttz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
631
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Posted - 2015.08.13 18:38:07 -
[61] - Quote
Cynica Deetric wrote:I see an easy fix to counter the trollcepter is to JUST let the citadels defences work like POS defences do now.... if you want to shoot the guns/mods good if you want to let the **** AI do it, that is ok to.
Or make it so that structures only automatically target active hostile entosis links. That way structures can't be abused into killing anything that comes on grid, but require a bit more thought to compromise than a disposable t1 frigate. The latter is especially important for smaller corps or individuals.
By requiring a little more effort to attack structures, we'll also (hopefully) end up with situations where both sides are invested in a fight, rather than the attackers simply running away if anyone shows up. |
Absent Sworn
Lamprey Systems Shoot 2 Thrill
1
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Posted - 2015.08.13 18:39:29 -
[62] - Quote
Aeril Malkyre wrote:[quote=CCP Nullarbor]This concerns me. This is a loss of functionality. Right now, someone with the means could set up a solo POS with enough guns and ewar that no one would bother attacking unless they had friends and some time. Now any ******* that happens by during the vulnerability window can Entosis the place, with no defense or recourse, except for the owner to be online and near the structure at that time. That's a massive loss of capability for something that's supposed to be replacing the POS system. I understand that you 'hear' the trollceptor concern, but what is going to be done about it? Are we just expected to play Entosis tug of war for a few days until the attacker gets bored?
This is a big concern of mine as well, as I am a low sec industrialist and operate a couple POS effectively solo.
Now, maybe part of the point here is that CCP feels that a few people being able to maintain a structure that is impervious to all but groups of a size many times larger than themselves shouldn't be a thing. I don't think I've read that anywhere and I doubt it's the case, but let's suppose it is for a moment so I can bring up my main concern: it just doesn't make sense. Look, if things change such that my current enterprise (and I would expect a non-trivial number of others with similar setups) becomes unfeasible I'll just do something else, that's fine. I don't need to make drugs, I do it because it's fun and aligns with my casual play style. I'll tear my stuff down and try something else. But I'll still find these changes bothersome, not so much for mechanics reasons which on paper seem mostly fine from my perspective, but because they are thematically nonsensical.
I am wondering if a bit of laser focus on mechanics here by CCP has attributed to this byproduct of really kicking the flavor side of things in the junk. That a starbase can be destroyed without inflicting a single point of damage is just silly, and that's putting it very lightly. It doesn't feel fun and it doesn't feel like EVE. I like logging out at my drug house knowing that anyone who comes snooping around will be shot at. More importantly I am extremely comfortable with the notion that any group of a sufficient size that really wants to make a concerted effort to ruin my day can come over and blow up my stuff at any time. I am not at all comfortable with the notion that an individual or even a few individuals can swing by and click entosis unfettered, even if it's only for a few hours weekly.
Maybe I represent a micro niche in EVE that CCP is just not overly concerned about, but for whatever it's worth I can say of myself that I won't bother trying to reproduce how I currently play EVE under this new system as it's currently being presented. Not in a rage, just with a sigh.
May your mushrooms always be sautéed and your onions always be grilled.
Not Sworn Absent since 2009
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B0RG 0VERLORD
Viziam Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.08.13 18:49:51 -
[63] - Quote
docking fatigue? |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3597
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Posted - 2015.08.13 18:52:05 -
[64] - Quote
I have a concern that revolves around these four things:
Rigs will be providing huge boosts. Rigs are expensive. Rigs are destroyed if the structure is scooped. If you feel you cannot defend your high sec structure when war hits, you scoop.
Now, given all this, why would I want a citadel over a POS? If I feel I cannot defend my stuff, I use a POS, and scoop it before the war goes live. But if I were to do that for a citadel, I lose the big part of the value: the rigs.
Unless a citadel without rigs is about equal to a POS.
So, if one of your goals is to remove POSes from the game (without everyone screaming about lost capability) a citadel should always be at least as desirable as a POS. That means: the same refining, manufacturing, fitting, research, and so on, AND can be scooped without having to lose rigs (which means: it has no rigs).
Possibility: Citadel services require fuel. The fuel use would be about the same as if you had a POS. But a rig will greatly reduce the fuel. Now, you have a choice: Be just a good as the old POS, and have the freedom to scoop. Or, be better than a POS, but you have to risk loss.
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Orm Magnustat
Red Serpent Industries
129
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Posted - 2015.08.13 18:54:26 -
[65] - Quote
The train has caught speed - and I-Śm pretty sure nothing's gonna stop it ....
Still there' s this one question on my mind. WHY??
Why going through all this pain of reinventing the wheel (POS) with all its uncertainties and potential (surefire) frustration ?!
The introduction of this "other" kind of station will not bring in a single new player by itself. But for sure it will frustrate quite some veterans that built certain playstyles around the classical POS concept during all those years. Its just bringing pain to a lot of people who invested a lot of effort in the old system or just like the prinicple concept of firepower and fat shields that totally made up the inner logic of your game in all these years.
You throw all this out of the window as if you just would like to manage a totally different game.....
Has this entosis crap (that you are betting your farm on) actually stood the test of time in your eyes, so that you have to spread it across the whole of this universe?
How about keeping the classical POS concept alongside these new "structures" and just let the players decide what kind of station they really want?
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2375
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Posted - 2015.08.13 19:34:54 -
[66] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Assets are ejected into the asset safety and players will be floating in space in their pods.
As mentioned in the asset safety thread, players should be in their active ship, only if there is no active ship should they be in their pod. There is no good reason to force them out of their active ship simply because they logged out for a day or two and someone scooped the structure. |
LujTic
Green Visstick High Dragon Knights Inc
13
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Posted - 2015.08.13 19:49:25 -
[67] - Quote
If I want to annoy people I can set up a publicly accessible Citadel, then scoop it to have their assets impounded. Or sit there in a cloaky and make a list of people that dock, then wardeck them, scoop and fight their pods when they log back in. |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
226
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Posted - 2015.08.13 19:49:55 -
[68] - Quote
xttz wrote:The decision to only affect new structures via Entosis is both a mistake and a missed opportunity; a kneejerk reaction to the bogeyman of structure grinding.
While the majority of us have a healthy distaste for structure shooting, it does still have a place in the game and shouldn't be dismissed entirely. We have entire classes of ships based around delivering and repairing high quantities of damage and this is an aspect of the game that should remain, albeit in a less central role. Dreadnoughts have always been really well balanced in this regard, with siege mode forcing them commit to an attack for a minimum period of time. Triage carriers patching up starbases have a similarly mirrored role, frantically trying to restore these assets while making themselves vulnerable. This was always a fantastic avenue for content, with opponents setting traps or scrambling to catch unexpected sieges. It would be a real shame to lose this aspect of EVE. It feels like you're scooping a load of sand out of the sandbox.
By all means allow sovereignty mechanics to favour grid control over ability to inflict damage, but actively maintained structures should still require a real investment in firepower to destroy. The simplest approach would be for Entosis Links to have a disabling effect on structures, but actual damage should need to be inflicted in order to destroy them for good, while an investment in repair ability should be required to restore them again.
what this man says; like really CCP you always go from one extreme to another, one could think you learned some lessons by now, but no... yes structure grinding suck, but going from that hundreds of millions of hp to one guy just using a flashlight its... well "ccpesque" ?
and one more thing: can you "CCP" decide what in category NPC 0.0 space should be? like every time you change something you group it randomly, with empire npc one time, then with 0.0 sov, and ofc the next time around it will go with wh space or even below that... it's like you always forget about it and just let it end how the dices roll |
Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
898
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Posted - 2015.08.13 19:54:12 -
[69] - Quote
Oh look, more entosis bullshit. |
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp Chao3 Alliance
279
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Posted - 2015.08.13 19:57:48 -
[70] - Quote
Orm Magnustat wrote: ... Has this entosis crap (that you are betting your farm on) actually stood the test of time in your eyes, so that you have to spread it across the whole of this universe?
The fundamental concepts of entosis are good. You may not like it because you can hide behind a school of capital guns, but this is the best way for the game to continue to evolve, and offer to new players perspective other than "to play, you must join the existing blobs". There are a few tweaks remaining to be done, like shutting down velocity of entosis ships or reducing nodes numbers slightly and making uncontested nodes revert to the defender over time.
Accumulation of DPS will always remain the main key to grid domination, but not anymore the only weapon to skirmish against stronger opponents.
"surrender your ego, be free". innuendo.
solo? There is a new hope...
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PAPULA
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
71
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Posted - 2015.08.13 20:10:43 -
[71] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:Oh look, more entosis bullshit. True story. |
Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
899
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Posted - 2015.08.13 20:17:16 -
[72] - Quote
Capitals are in the game and a lot of people spent a lot of time training for them. Throwing away the majority of what we use them for in Aegis without announcing how you're going to redefine their roles has left a lot of us very frustrated and jaded, especially considering it's been less than a year since Phoebe. And now you're lining up for yet another release, taking away the POS bash, which is most of what their utility is now. And still no details on how you plan to rebalance them and redefine their utility.
You're alienating many of your most loyal subscribers. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3601
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Posted - 2015.08.13 20:22:26 -
[73] - Quote
I'm still missing something here as to why I would want one of these things rather than a POS.
For example: A POS can defend itself while I'm on a week long cruise in the Caribbean, and a war hits. These new Citadels cannot. Why do I want that?
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Absent Sworn
Lamprey Systems Shoot 2 Thrill
4
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Posted - 2015.08.13 20:28:02 -
[74] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:I'm still missing something here as to why I would want one of these things rather than a POS.
For example: A POS can defend itself while I'm on a week long cruise in the Caribbean, and a war hits. These new Citadels cannot. Why do I want that?
That's only a relevant question if you have a choice between one of these things and a POS. Maybe what you're missing is that you won't.
May your mushrooms always be sautéed and your onions always be grilled.
Not Sworn Absent since 2009
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Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC Desman Alliance
169
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Posted - 2015.08.13 20:29:12 -
[75] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Black Pedro wrote:Just to be clear. In highsec, if I want to remove say a M Citidel from a rival I will need to declare war for at least three weeks? Say they set their vulnerability window for all three hours on Saturday morning. I would declare war the Friday morning to wait for the war to go live, and then would have to renew the war two more times before I could finally destroy it as each vulnerability window lasts a week? No that was something left out of this blog, but the time between vulnerability windows will be shorter for the smaller structures, and our rough estimates on this would be a week in total from start to finish. This is something we want a lot of feedback on though, exactly how many hours and the times between cycles. A week to destroy a small tower? Seriously? Wow. Just wow. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3601
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Posted - 2015.08.13 20:34:56 -
[76] - Quote
Absent Sworn wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:I'm still missing something here as to why I would want one of these things rather than a POS.
For example: A POS can defend itself while I'm on a week long cruise in the Caribbean, and a war hits. These new Citadels cannot. Why do I want that? That's only a relevant question if you have a choice between one of these things and a POS. Maybe what you're missing is that you won't. But I do have the choice of not using them at all. CCP, why add content that encourages players to NOT use it?
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stoicfaux
6198
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Posted - 2015.08.13 20:34:58 -
[77] - Quote
What price range is CCP targeting for Medium Citadels? Yes, I know prices have not been specified, but we looking at 1s, 10s, 100s, or 1,000s of millions of isk for a Medium?
Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
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Dr Cedric
Independent Miners Corporation Care Factor
113
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Posted - 2015.08.13 20:57:20 -
[78] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:What price range is CCP targeting for Medium Citadels? Yes, I know prices have not been specified, but we looking at 1s, 10s, 100s, or 1,000s of millions of isk for a Medium?
The FAQ paper says Medium is for small to medium sized corps (Im guessing that means like max 20 people?) so probably somewhere in the 250-750M ISK range to make, then rigs.. maybe a Billion each? That seams doable for 20 dedicated guys
Cedric
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gascanu
Bearing Srl.
230
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Posted - 2015.08.13 21:20:16 -
[79] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:Capitals are in the game and a lot of people spent a lot of time training for them. Throwing away the majority of what we use them for in Aegis without announcing how you're going to redefine their roles has left a lot of us very frustrated and jaded, especially considering it's been less than a year since Phoebe. And now you're lining up for yet another release, taking away the POS bash, which is most of what their utility is now. And still no details on how you plan to rebalance them and redefine their utility.
You're alienating many of your most loyal subscribers.
but, but ,you can use your capitals to shoot enemy capitals... in case they show up; this ofc after spending a week moving your caps into position |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2376
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Posted - 2015.08.13 21:32:45 -
[80] - Quote
Absent Sworn wrote: That's only a relevant question if you have a choice between one of these things and a POS. Maybe what you're missing is that you won't.
And there in lies the issue. |
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Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
4566
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Posted - 2015.08.13 21:40:55 -
[81] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Entosis is supposed to measure who controls the field and capitals should have a role to play in that. How effective that visions works out will depend a lot on the capital rebalance which is gaining some momentum at the moment.
How exactly is this going to work in high-sec where capitals are prohibited?
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3607
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Posted - 2015.08.13 21:53:04 -
[82] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Absent Sworn wrote: That's only a relevant question if you have a choice between one of these things and a POS. Maybe what you're missing is that you won't.
And there in lies the issue. Exactly. All those "improve the POS" threads were made to get just that: Structures that were superior to the POS in terms of fun game play. If citadels are worse, then many POS users will be screaming at CCP. At present the things I see that make the medium structure worse than a POS:
It cannot defend itself, like a POS. I have to be there, at all my structures, all the time. I cannot go on vacation. To made it useful, I may have to use rigs, meaning I cannot defend it by scooping it, like I can with a POS. I cannot do it all in one structure. I cannot refine, build, and research all in one with good efficiency. Instead, I need multiple structures. Citadels will really be bad if you find its better to use an NPC station.
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Dr Loveless
Viziam Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2015.08.13 21:59:24 -
[83] - Quote
Quote:Any external party to the corporation will only be able to see the timer related to the current state. For example, a scout may learn the structure is in reinforced state 2, with 5 hours left on it by going to the solar system where the structure is located. However the same scout will not be able to guess how the vulnerability window is weekly set. In the same manner, we want to avoid automation for this particular information, which means not displaying it in the API, since we want people to actively scout, or infiltrate spies in the target entity they wish to disrupt instead of relying on external tools to do the job for them.
It's OK that attacker can't see vulnerability windows but timers should show when you can attack (at some point of vulnerability window). People must sleep, go to work and this kind of s**t. People will not live in EVE and can't sit on station 24/7 and waiting for vulnerability window. Which can be problem for smaller corporations that play in one timezone.
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Orm Magnustat
Red Serpent Industries
135
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Posted - 2015.08.13 22:05:08 -
[84] - Quote
Saisin wrote:Orm Magnustat wrote: ... Has this entosis crap (that you are betting your farm on) actually stood the test of time in your eyes, so that you have to spread it across the whole of this universe?
The fundamental concepts of entosis are good. You may not like it because you can hide behind a school of capital guns, but this is the best way for the game to continue to evolve, and offer to new players perspective other than "to play, you must join the existing blobs". There are a few tweaks remaining to be done, like shutting down velocity of entosis ships or reducing nodes numbers slightly and making uncontested nodes revert to the defender over time. Accumulation of DPS will always remain the main key to grid domination, but not anymore the only weapon to skirmish against stronger opponents.
"The fundamental concepts of entosis are good." - What makes you think so? That you personally like it? I take a look at some player statistics and get a totally different picture. The horrible losses in player activity during the last half year say a lot about the anticipations that people have about this change of paradigm. And when I look at the statistics since its actual introduction it seems that the "natural" slightly increased server activity (testing the waters) after such an important update is dropping again sharply just after three weeks (but its quite early too call this a trend).
This is the best way for the game to "evolve" ??? Evolution is a process of gradually enhancing the existing functionalities. Ripping out someones heart and replacing it by sthg completely different can be hardly called evolution. Just now you can see how core aspects of the game are (about to be) removed - and what it does to the player base.
Truely not good. (imho)
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Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
272
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Posted - 2015.08.13 22:14:44 -
[85] - Quote
So... when can we start expecting these structures?
I have ants in my pants waiting for them... and no, I like standing on the anthill. |
Ida Aurlien
Cerberus Federation Gentlemen's.Club
65
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Posted - 2015.08.13 22:22:13 -
[86] - Quote
well i'm not a fan of entoss links.. and this to me sounds like a major mess.. I hope this takes u years to do but probably not.. no time to really play game as allways running to put out fires.. gives u no time to play the game just b a fireman.. other games let u play without having to babysit 24/7 |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2377
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Posted - 2015.08.13 22:24:47 -
[87] - Quote
Ida Aurlien wrote:well i'm not a fan of entoss links.. and this to me sounds like a major mess.. I hope this takes u years to do but probably not.. no time to really play game as allways running to put out fires.. gives u no time to play the game just b a fireman.. other games let u play without having to babysit 24/7 Curious, name other games where you can actually lose structures which you don't have to babysit 24/7. Most of the ones I know don't even have timers and invuln periods. |
Ida Aurlien
Cerberus Federation Gentlemen's.Club
65
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Posted - 2015.08.13 22:28:51 -
[88] - Quote
visually look at the alliances u've lost since introducing the entossis link u are losing a lot .... I figure when all said and done u will have just a few alliances left.. and this should speed that up some . Is that your true intent ?
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
14118
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Posted - 2015.08.13 22:45:15 -
[89] - Quote
Please clarify the methods by which a potential aggressor can actually find out concrete information on the vulnerability periods of a desired target structure.
Because it very much looks like, unless I get a guy inside their corp, that I would have to Entosis the thing once an hour all day long until I get a hit. And that's after wardeccing them in the first place. And since an Entosis will take 1 hour per cycle in highsec, that would suggest that I would have to be there literally all day, every day until I get a hit on their vulnerability timer(of which, the percentage of hours in a week that they have to commit to is hilariously low). And that's just for the first of three timers.
So hopefully I'm wrong, because that sounds like a really unreasonable pain in the ass just to clean up some squatter off of a random moon in highsec.
Oh, and please elaborate on what happens should a corp be dissolved with an active citadel.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
272
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Posted - 2015.08.13 23:57:22 -
[90] - Quote
In terms of the vulnerability windows, you have null sec split into two categories: Null Sec with Full Occupancy and Null Sec without occupancy.
Where does NPC Null Sec fall into this?
My natural assumption is with "Null Sec with full occupancy" since you also have Low Sec there as well (neither can be claimed by players).
But I hate making assumptions so clarification would be great: will I have 3 hours of vulnerability or 12 for a Medium Citadel in NPC Controlled Null Sec? |
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