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corbexx
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1396
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Posted - 2015.08.17 09:24:14 -
[61] - Quote
Owing to the amount of people who have posted I'm going to have to limit it to 2 per alliance, So if SSC, HK and Isogen5 can let me know which 2 people they want to attend that would be sweet.
Apologies again to SSC and TDSIN, for having to cancel last night due to over running, we'll sort it out for another time so don't worry.
I'll send mails out tomorrow lunch time with all the details please when you do come on ts, make sure you use the name you posted on this thread with.
Corbexx for CSM X - Wormholes still deserve better
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Necharo Rackham
The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
61
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Posted - 2015.08.17 11:35:39 -
[62] - Quote
I would be interested in attending also. |
Chunky Lafunga
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
9
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Posted - 2015.08.17 11:38:38 -
[63] - Quote
I too, would be interested in attending this.
"Why am I fighting to live... If im just living to fight"
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GizzyBoy
Aperture Harmonics K162
180
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Posted - 2015.08.17 12:34:13 -
[64] - Quote
will try to attend for K162, |
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
1236
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Posted - 2015.08.17 13:19:23 -
[65] - Quote
I'd like to check in as representative for c4/5 farm-holes. |
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery Prolapse.
2697
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Posted - 2015.08.18 00:06:54 -
[66] - Quote
Ilaister wrote:Obil Que wrote: This could have a very chilling effect on smaller groups as they see themselves attacked for no other reason than they are in an open vulnerable window. Today's POS EHP wall prevents most casual attack of towers other than very poorly fit defenses.
You imply that a group belongs in wspace if they cannot protect their assets. This has never been the case.
As I pointed out in my blog, and in a rant on the Devblog comments, what you have now is a system where one guy can protect himself against basically anyone just by paying some ISK. ie; they spend money on a large tower (250M), some utility (140M), some hardeners (24M) and a buttload of guns (240M+) and as long as they don't leave gaping holes in the resists, or ECM, or DPS profiles, that one guy corp can effectively deter whole alliances worth of foes.
That's just the system people are used to, and while it has problems, no it does not require any form of defence whatsoever. You can sit in your POS, even if you can't man the guns, and the POS defends you from your own ineptitude.
Does this have to change? Arguably, yes. It is utterly ridiculous that oe guy can via the magic of buying from the market, fend off all manner of attacks, in all space. EHP walls be damned, this is about automatic defences.
I hate the cowardly, mouthy little twits who scuttle back to POS and log off. I would love to be able to use my magic laser pointer / space wand for 30 minutes while he's sitting in his Citadel and put a timer on the field. But I don't think it's well thought out that a) I can do it with total impunity because of automated defences or b) if the defences were automated I couldn't do it because Entosis prevents RR and Citadels are going to have hilarious DPS no doubt
That's the crux of the problem. Trolling will happen to all manner of people, and yes it's likely small groups / solo bears / smallholding farmers will be evicted quite easily. But it's also likely that a manned Citadel will become a massive headache.
I want to see the numbers. We're going toward a system based around sov entosis where the attacking ship has no ability to receive RR, and we're putting POS guns on the field. So how is this going to be balanced?
The current system has its problems. They are, viz. 1) EHP walls are probably too big 2) People can anchor infinite guns around a POS. You can even online extra guns when the POS is crippled! 3) The POS can have DPS which is balanced against threatening an attacking dread; this then threatens subcaps and puts a minimum size of an attacking force onto the field (see elsewhere for remedy to this :) 4) POSs can have literally insane amounts of EWAR. Like....crazy 5) POSs require no active interaction to protect; they self-protect
All up, this is the biggest force multiplier in the game. it is broken insofaras it multiplies a force of zero up to being equivalent with, oh, I dunno, 50-60+ people if you set your POS up right.
Here's my POS setup. Note ALL are ONLINE. Yes. Online. 10 Faction Large Pulses (4400 DPS) 4 Faction Webs 4 Dissys 8 ECMs 80 Sensor damps. EIGHTY. 25% minimum resist panel SMA, CHA
it will defend itself against....well, you guys are welcome to figure out what. The fact we'd be around to take advantage of the 120M EHP of sensor damps you haven't RFed by the time we wake up, well, thats a problem for you. But equally possible is that one dude playing solo by himself can build this POS and deploy it (takes a day...) and literally no one an attack it or will attack it.
Turn this into the Citadel, and the problems are gone. Kinda. 1) Zero EHP! Whee, you don't need a single gun. 2) Eight guns. Whee! 3) DPS is currently flapping in the breeze. But it has zero automated guns. The corrollary is, as soon as the guns are manned, its suicide to be an Entosis link ship because you can't get RR. Could result in incredibly short-lived sieges. 4) TBA on the EWAR, but lets assume it's not 80 damps worth. Solved? 5) Whee! If people aren't around, you get to trample their stuff with impunity.
So you're kinda solved the problems, but now they are just new problems. Viz; 1) If it's not vulnerable, it's not vulnerable. Full stop. No game can be played, no content can be generated. You must walk away. Currently, you can attack a POS off-TZ in order to take advantage of a lack of defences, an AFK defender, or to put a timer on the field that suits you. No more. bad. 2) If it is vulnerable, it is vulnerable to anyone pending this trollceptor problem CCP is aware of and has magic fix for. Really? 3) Link ships are totally vulnerable to a Citadel with active guns, due to no inbound reps. Right now, no idea on whether guns can be KO'ed. 4) If guns can be KO'ed and don't shoot back...well, you see where I'm going here (hint: every siege ever done in w-space was from badly set up POSs which don't shoot back). This is also stupid.
The question is, are these new problems of trollceptrs attacking POSs that don't shoot back better than EHP walls?
At the end of the day, I would be in favour of Citadels having automated guns you can knock out. Less of them, far far less of them, and none you can anchor around in case of rainy day. Make them degradable. Make them repairable (with truckloads of nanite?) even in RF, not replaceable.
This puts onto the table a deterrence from trollceptors, even if the defender is AFk. You have to reduce the Citadel defences with guns, a fleet, and logi just like now. Once gone, deploy the link ship, get the timer on the field. The defender can then spend a bunch of nanites repping the guns for the final push / defence. Expensive, but that's your problem for being AFK and/or being a mouthy twit. You can then defend your POS at the timer, using your guns and a link ship.
Doctor Prince Field Marshall of Prolapse. Alliance and Grand Sasquatch of Bob
We take Batphones. Contact us at Hola Batmanuel - Free call 1800-UR-MOMMA
~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
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GizzyBoy
Aperture Harmonics K162
180
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Posted - 2015.08.18 01:26:51 -
[67] - Quote
first you need a reason to even rage camp some ones system, our bar used to be pretty low, now its comparatively high because of the effort involved, both for logistics and hole control
people wont stop scuttling to where ever either warping some where and cloaking and waiting out there timer before safe logging or other types of tricks to evade pvp.
in regards to links ships, you can land with 4-5 tornado's and get 2 volleys in before warping when they will typically pop, we have tried it many times, some successful some failed because they either warped or ducked back into shields. |
Necharo Rackham
The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
61
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Posted - 2015.08.18 09:47:26 -
[68] - Quote
GizzyBoy wrote: in regards to links ships, you can land with 4-5 tornado's and get 2 volleys in before warping when they will typically pop, we have tried it many times, some successful some failed because they either warped or ducked back into shields.
I believe the reference was to a ship with an entosis (rather than warfare) link.
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corbexx
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1396
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Posted - 2015.08.18 11:15:49 -
[69] - Quote
closing this now as we are super full.
I still need to hear from hk and ssc on who they want to go
we're more than I wanted tbh so people will have to be on best behavor. if people cause issues i'll just kick them.
There will be no need to record this we'll sort 2 people to do that and put it on sound cloud for everyone to listen to.
mails will be going out in next hour or so.
Corbexx for CSM X - Wormholes still deserve better
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Rek Seven
The Scope Gallente Federation
1986
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Posted - 2015.08.18 11:41:38 -
[70] - Quote
I speak for HK
You sound like an idiot when you say "create content" when you mean find a fight, gank, etc... Stop it!
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Axloth Okiah
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
780
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Posted - 2015.08.18 12:13:50 -
[71] - Quote
corbexx wrote:I still need to hear from hk and ssc on who they want to go cant we just pick the two most competent among us who are online at the time?
(ie. almost certainly not me)
SSC Brokering Service
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Winthorp
3622
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Posted - 2015.08.18 12:27:24 -
[72] - Quote
Axloth Okiah wrote: cant we just pick the two most competent among us?
Two you say...
I am Winthorp, you might remember me from such films as "Winthorp is to blame for permanent signature ID's".
Please note i don't engage in any meaningful discussion with NPC alts, nut up or shut up...
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corbexx
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1396
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Posted - 2015.08.18 12:27:25 -
[73] - Quote
i'd really rather not i'm trying to keep stuff as simple as possible. If we do that then everyone will want to do taht and its going to make it a huge pain in the ******* arse for me to keep track of.
Corbexx for CSM X - Wormholes still deserve better
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Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
2932
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Posted - 2015.08.18 18:30:00 -
[74] - Quote
Meeting is over, watch this space for the soundcloud link an an hour or so
Initial impressions? Holy cow, this was a respectful and adult conversation . . . . I was knocked out.
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
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Aladar Dangerface
13. Enigma Project
214
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Posted - 2015.08.18 18:45:36 -
[75] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Meeting is over, watch this space for the soundcloud link an an hour or so
Initial impressions? Holy cow, this was a respectful and adult conversation . . . . I was knocked out.
m Wh culture and null culture are very different and is the reason most of us stay in Whs.
I don't need twitter.
I'm already following you.
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Drago Shouna
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
281
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Posted - 2015.08.18 19:04:21 -
[76] - Quote
When is the HS sounding board?
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Niamh Aldreheim
Dropbears Anonymous Brave Collective
0
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Posted - 2015.08.18 19:08:08 -
[77] - Quote
Drago Shouna wrote:When is the HS sounding board?
Speak to your CSM rep(s) to organize one! |
Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
2932
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Posted - 2015.08.18 19:12:29 -
[78] - Quote
https://soundcloud.com/mike-azariah/structruechatt
there ya go
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
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corbexx
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1396
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Posted - 2015.08.18 19:16:16 -
[79] - Quote
Thanks very much to everyone who attended, apolgies to people I had to turn down. I won't lie after the last one I was very concerned. Its one of the reasons I was so strick and wanted to limit numbers.
As it was my 15 to 20 turned in to 35 even after limiting it and having to turn people away on the day. Everyone was fantastically well behaved, Better than i could have dreamed of. So I really appreciate that. I'll also hopefully allow more people next time.
CCP found this constructive. Once the sound cloud is out we'll have it here and also put it on confluence so the rest of the dev team can listen to it.
thanks again.
edit holy **** mikes got it up already
Corbexx for CSM X - Wormholes still deserve better
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Drago Shouna
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
281
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Posted - 2015.08.18 19:43:55 -
[80] - Quote
Niamh Aldreheim wrote:Drago Shouna wrote:When is the HS sounding board?
Speak to your CSM rep(s) to organize one!
Do we have one?
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Axloth Okiah
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
780
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Posted - 2015.08.18 20:42:18 -
[81] - Quote
Regarding the personal hangar security issue mentioned in the chat, proposed solution was that members could tick a box saying "im ok with directors having access to my personal hangar." Imho this should rather be like the current friendly fire option for corps, so the box gets ticked by the CEO and has a timer. So it is "if you join this corp, directors will have access to your personal hangar in citadels."
The trashing could be another box, per citadel, ie. "this citadel does not allow trashing" etc.
SSC Brokering Service
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Tyrant Scorn
194
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Posted - 2015.08.18 20:53:23 -
[82] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:https://soundcloud.com/mike-azariah/structruechatt
there ya go
m
Thank you Mike, could you make it available for Download, currently only able to listen on Soundcloud itself. I like to put it on my iphone to listen to it at work.
Legacy Of A Capsuleer Podcast
Eve Online Hold 'Em | EveTimeCode.com | GameTimeZone.com
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Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
2936
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Posted - 2015.08.18 21:21:08 -
[83] - Quote
Drago Shouna wrote:Niamh Aldreheim wrote:Drago Shouna wrote:When is the HS sounding board?
Speak to your CSM rep(s) to organize one! Do we have one?
/me waves
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
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Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
2936
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Posted - 2015.08.18 21:25:50 -
[84] - Quote
Tyrant Scorn wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:https://soundcloud.com/mike-azariah/structruechatt
there ya go
m Thank you Mike, could you make it available for Download, currently only able to listen on Soundcloud itself. I like to put it on my iphone to listen to it at work.
sorry, I always forget to do that done
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
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Tyrant Scorn
194
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Posted - 2015.08.18 21:33:17 -
[85] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Tyrant Scorn wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:https://soundcloud.com/mike-azariah/structruechatt
there ya go
m Thank you Mike, could you make it available for Download, currently only able to listen on Soundcloud itself. I like to put it on my iphone to listen to it at work. sorry, I always forget to do that done m
Thank you !
Legacy Of A Capsuleer Podcast
Eve Online Hold 'Em | EveTimeCode.com | GameTimeZone.com
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Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
1986
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Posted - 2015.08.19 09:20:19 -
[86] - Quote
I like the idea that the dev had when he said players could put a structure up to prevent anchoring of new structures. This would keep the barrier to entry for installing a hostile pos but wouldn't need you to put a pos on every moon.
If this new structure had reasonably low HP, no reinforce timer and sent a notification when attacked, I think it would be fine.
You sound like an idiot when you say "create content" when you mean find a fight, gank, etc... Stop it!
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Winthorp
3622
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Posted - 2015.08.19 11:49:21 -
[87] - Quote
I just listened this and am glad Corbexx limited numbers somewhat, it made for easy listening with less neckbeards talking over each other with stupid questions that have been answered many times.
I liked hearing that loveable brits (Ilaister) helpful voice and Noobman had some very good discussion points that got discussed.
All in all it was a good that CCP Nullabor seemed very willing to listen to our needs. This wasn't my experience with discussions with him previously so i just hope his understanding in this sounding board translates into a much wiser devblog or two coming soon.
I found one point odd that people were so happy to still allow people continuing access to their ships/stuff going forward even if it was directors. How many times have corps been just ruined from "rouge" directors/spais....
I am Winthorp, you might remember me from such films as "Winthorp is to blame for permanent signature ID's".
Please note i don't engage in any meaningful discussion with NPC alts, nut up or shut up...
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Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
462
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Posted - 2015.08.19 13:06:52 -
[88] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:I like the idea that the dev had when he said players could put a structure up to prevent anchoring of new structures. This would keep the barrier to entry for installing a hostile pos but wouldn't need you to put a pos on every moon.
If this new structure had reasonably low HP, no reinforce timer and sent a notification when attacked, I think it would be fine.
I'm hoping for this as well. Some people want it to be a module or rig, but having a single relatively weak structure makes it much simpler to understand and interact with. It could also do something cool like let you "name" a w-space or nullsec system...
You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
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Andrew Jester
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
1336
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Posted - 2015.08.19 13:39:39 -
[89] - Quote
Winthorp wrote:I found one point odd that people were so happy to still allow people continuing access to their ships/stuff going forward even if it was directors. How many times have corps been just ruined from "rouge" directors/spais....
stockholm syndrome
If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy
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Lim Hiaret
Hiaret Family
30
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Posted - 2015.08.19 13:49:26 -
[90] - Quote
Chance Ravinne wrote:Rek Seven wrote:I like the idea that the dev had when he said players could put a structure up to prevent anchoring of new structures. This would keep the barrier to entry for installing a hostile pos but wouldn't need you to put a pos on every moon.
If this new structure had reasonably low HP, no reinforce timer and sent a notification when attacked, I think it would be fine. I'm hoping for this as well. Some people want it to be a module or rig, but having a single relatively weak structure makes it much simpler to understand and interact with. It could also do something cool like let you "name" a w-space or nullsec system...
Wouldn't that be wormhole sov again?
How about this: Structures can be destroyed by entosis AND by DPS. DPS works all the time and leads to a reinforced and invulnerable state that comes out during the vulnerability window. Outside of the vulnerability window the structures automatic defence should be efficient enough to fight of a reasonable strong force and to incentivise the use of entosis instead but not too strong to rule that option out. Because the guns are mounted on the structure and cannot be incapacitated, it would be more effort and more of a fight to kill the structures HP anyway. Especially if the defence is more like fighter or fighter bomber bays instead of guns. However, the attacker or the defender of the WH would not be bound absolutely by the invulnerability window and would have a chance to stop an invasion in a different time zone through (the apparently so much missed) HP grind. During the invulnerability window guns and offensive modules do not operate automatically (or very slowly and randomly) and have to be manned to be efficient. Thus a single ship can use an entosis link to hack the structure into a reinforced state. |
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