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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
7499
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Posted - 2015.08.17 14:48:46 -
[31] - Quote
And this is why we had that talk about market expectations being different in Federation space, Scherezad-haani.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
2433
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Posted - 2015.08.17 15:15:00 -
[32] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:And this is why we had that talk about market expectations being different in Federation space, Scherezad-haani. Oh my gosh. When you were talking about, uh, the, the recreational medical-grade hardware, you meant that?
ew ew ew ew ew |
Sinti Vailatti
Royal Khanid Colonial Exploration
22
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Posted - 2015.08.17 15:17:48 -
[33] - Quote
Skyweir Kinnison wrote:I appear to have touched a nerve.
The question is legitimate, I'm afraid, not a manipulation. It's not a claim for moral superiority - no doubt the majority like to be economically secure and have their families protected by laws and safeguards, rather than being in any fundamental way committed to the Constitution that ensures those rights. Nonetheless, Matari should consider the question seriously, just as your own choice to abandon your own people for a new order is a legitimate line of self-relflection. How are you going to protect your people and free and feed those enslaved if you don't have friends like us?
And by the by, what's wrong with loving drones? They are often gentle and sensitive lovers.
Of course I don't care about any of those people as people, I don't know them. Principles drive behaviours, and shape policies. There's a fair few within the Federation that would wihdraw all support for Minamatar, republic or otherwise, and let them sink or swim. As someone else wrote, there's far more for us to gain by being pragmatic and being allies with the Empire. Oh, but then there's those principles you have a problem with.
It's a rather false equivalence to compare Lieutenant Kernher's individual record on genocide to an entire civilisation. I'll agree with you that in that narrow comparison, she comes out ahead. Amarr, not so much. Personally, I think we made some serious misjudgements over the Caldari secession, but it wasn't handled well on either side. We each went off the deep-end of extremism.
Ok, ok, I'll say it...
*ahem
"And this is why the Federation must be destroyed."
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Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
603
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Posted - 2015.08.17 15:21:57 -
[34] - Quote
You will be pleased to know that I take very good care of my automated servitors. Any drone is given timely maintenance, and their usage strictly adheres to operating procedures and schedules of operation is well within the limits of acceptable time length.
Drones that show creativity and initiative are granted chassis upgrades.
Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~ EVERGREEN ~ Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~Evergreen ~ Family
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1558
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Posted - 2015.08.17 15:50:21 -
[35] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote:...
Drones that show creativity and initiative are granted chassis upgrades.
It's the chassis upgrades that have them worried... |
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
5636
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Posted - 2015.08.17 17:44:40 -
[36] - Quote
You can call us Federals many things, and oyu often have. Go on. Go right ahead with that. I won't stop you. Call us culturally imperialistic. Call us elitist. Call us ivory-tower utopians. Call us no better than the Amarr if you want, but read my lips - no Minmatar, loyalist, old-Republican, new-Tribal or independent, has earned the right to slander the Federation as uncaring.
We cared enough that long before the Rebellion we were providing safe haven for escaped slaves from across the cluster when your own homeworlds weren't safe to inhabit. We cared enough that the Rebellion, when it happened, had the financial backing of our nation's coffers and a dozen Federal corporations - while we were still at war with the Caldari! We cared enough that we helped build your nation's civilian and military eduation system. We cared enough that we poured tens of billions of Federal dollars in start-up corporations with no guarantee they'd ever provide a return on investment - hell, some of them still haven't! - just to stimulate the Republic's fledgling economy.
We cared enough that we took in trillions of the people your society couldn't look after and we gave them homes, jobs, healthcare, education, citizenship - and because even after all the money that cost us, we were still living in times of plenty, we shared the wealth! The Republic received tens of billions of ISK in foreign aid programs because the Federation cared.
What did the Minmatar, with their fabled loyalty and integrity do in return for our friendship?
Where were the Minmatar when Sukuuvestaa sold foodstuffs to the Federation so defective they caused brain damage in children? Where were the Minmatar when Serpentis stole the Molyneux? Where were the Minmatar when the skies of Reschard and Seyllin burnt? Did you not care?
Oh no, but let's remember what you did do - you started the goddamn Empyrean War. You spent all the goddamn money we gave to you so you could look after your goddamn citizens on capital ships and launched an all-out attack on CONCORD that brought the DED tumbling to its knees, letting Tibus Heth into our space to kill our people and lay siege to our worlds. You didn't even bother to warn us, give us some time to prepare. Did you not care?
Of course, I should keep things in perspective. It's not like the Minmatar have ever actually, say, broken a ton of treaties and attacked us... oh, no, wait, what am I thinking? Yes you have! Deciding that it wasn't the Federation's right to punish a Federal criminal who'd committed a crime against Federal law in Federal territory in a Federal court, you invaded our territory and opened fire on our defence forces, killing tens of thousands of Navymen in Colelie. Dozens of Republican capsuleers were present, saw this blatant violation of our sovereignty and instead of attempting to rein in their nation's navy, they helped murder our people, in our territory!
And do you know what we monstrous, imperialistic, tyrannical, uncaring Federals did in response? We handed over the criminal you wanted anyway, because - gods help us all! - we thought that your friendship was more important to us than the lives of our Navymen! Did we get so much as an apology, condolences, a tacit admission of fault from the Republic? Not a chance! Hell, you managed to look worse than the Amarr, who, when Uriam Kador invaded our space, made profuse apologies, explicitly stated that the attack had not been authorised and punished the guilty party (albeit lightly). Hell, when we found the traitor Eturer was hiding in Amarr space, they even let our fleet move in and capture him unhindered by way of reparations.
Perhaps the Republic and the Federation's friendship cannot last. But don't you ever dare tell me we didn't put our heart into it.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
7500
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Posted - 2015.08.17 17:56:08 -
[37] - Quote
On a tangent, the language of cultural uplift and religious reclaiming can be curiously similar at times.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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ValentinaDLM
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
778
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Posted - 2015.08.17 18:15:48 -
[38] - Quote
Touched a nerve have we Andreus? I see little need to be so defensive. If you have a particular problem with the Matari then that is one thing but many are still trying to work on strengthening the relationship between the Federation and the Republic. However rocky that relationship is, it would not be in the Federations best interest to make the Republic an enemy, nor would it be in the best Interest of the Republic to antagonize the Federation. After all imagine the political situation of the Republic were to ally with the state against the Federation, it wouldn't be a positive outcome for anyone.
the leaders of the Federation and the Republic know better than committing to a full scale war and as someone who values peace I am glad they do. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1043
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Posted - 2015.08.17 18:20:10 -
[39] - Quote
Skyweir Kinnison wrote: I appear to have touched a nerve.
You can touch more if you like, I've got a puddle of biomass around here, I'm sure it's got some.
Quote: The question is legitimate, I'm afraid, not a manipulation. It's not a claim for moral superiority - no doubt the majority like to be economically secure and have their families protected by laws and safeguards, rather than being in any fundamental way committed to the Constitution that ensures those rights. Nonetheless, Matari should consider the question seriously, just as your own choice to abandon your own people for a new order is a legitimate line of self-relflection. How are you going to protect your people and free and feed those enslaved if you don't have friends like us?
It's clearly a claim of moral superiority. And it's a childish one at that. 'Your people like us better, nyeah!'
Grow up. Really. Trying to throw the choices of one group of people in the face of another is just pathetic. As for me 'abandoning' my own people (no no, no attempt at moral superiority in that choice of words, is there?), my income beggars that of a normal Republic Fleet officer, and it goes through my parents and my Clan, to help the Tribe. At any given point, I retain only enough cash on-hand to cover operating costs. So kindly sit and spin, my little moral supremacist.
Quote: And by the by, what's wrong with loving drones? They are often gentle and sensitive lovers.
Right there with you, LF.
Quote: Of course I don't care about any of those people as people, I don't know them. Principles drive behaviours, and shape policies. There's a fair few within the Federation that would wihdraw all support for Minamatar, republic or otherwise, and let them sink or swim. As someone else wrote, there's far more for us to gain by being pragmatic and being allies with the Empire. Oh, but then there's those principles you have a problem with.
Then be pragmatic. Be bloody well honest about your interests, instead of acting like you're somehow suffering all this nonsense for us. You're not. You're doing it for you. You're doing it because you like to feel like you're doing something noble and self-sacrificing. That's it. That's all it is. You want to be able to sit around felating your Hedonism and Debauchery Bot IIs telling yourself what wonderful people you are.
And honestly? If that's what floats your boat? Or bot, as the case may be? FINE. But at least have the integrity to admit you do it because you want to smug it up, instead of claiming it's all for us. It's not for us. It's for you. We're just the sop you're using to bolster your self-esteem. |
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
2436
|
Posted - 2015.08.17 18:24:57 -
[40] - Quote
Mr. Ixiris, while there are many things we don't agree on, you make your point very well, and I can't find a way to disagree. For better or worse, the Federation cares.
You paint a vivid picture. I think I understand. |
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1044
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Posted - 2015.08.17 18:29:03 -
[41] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:You can call us Federals many things, and oyu often have. Go on. Go right ahead with that. I won't stop you. Call us culturally imperialistic. Call us elitist. Call us ivory-tower utopians. Call us no better than the Amarr if you want, but read my lips - no Minmatar, loyalist, old-Republican, new-Tribal or independent, has earned the right to slander the Federation as uncaring.
You're uncaring. Your whole litany of 'we did all of this!' wasn't for us, it was for you. It was so you could feel like the great saviors and tell yourself how awesome you were for suffering all of that economic hardship on our behalf, even though:
Quote:even after all the money that cost us, we were still living in times of plenty
All you gave, and it didn't even register a blip on the bottom line. Yeah. So noble. So sacrificing. Go back to polishing your monuments to your own nobility, droner.
Quote: Where were the Minmatar when Sukuuvestaa sold foodstuffs to the Federation so defective they caused brain damage in children? Where were the Minmatar when Serpentis stole the Molyneux? Where were the Minmatar when the skies of Reschard and Seyllin burnt? Did you not care?
No. Did I ever claim I did? You poison our peoples' minds like the Amarr, you attempt to push us to adopt your form of rule, like the Amarr, you get pissy with us when your children start wearing tattoos they don't understand - and do we respond with blood for the mockery of our ways? No, of course not. They're children. They don't know what they're doing. You do. And you let them. And you rage at us for it. So noble. So self-sacrificing. Just don't let anyone deviate from your ideals, or you'll throw a fit and kill off an entire world. Really, I'm pretty shocked you haven't tried replacing your young with 'Integrated Childbot Is'.
Quote: Perhaps the Republic and the Federation's friendship cannot last. But don't you ever dare tell me we didn't put our heart into it.
You put your heart into your reflection. Stop looking into the mirror and declaring everything there is fine because all you see is yourself. |
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
5639
|
Posted - 2015.08.17 19:11:43 -
[42] - Quote
If I was talking to a mirror, I'd at least be having a more rational conversation, you nullsec puppet.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1044
|
Posted - 2015.08.17 19:50:55 -
[43] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:If I was talking to a mirror, I'd at least be having a more rational conversation, you nullsec puppet.
That's it. Very good. Can't actually argue with what your nose is being rubbed in, so attack the person saying it.
The Federation, folks. Such wonderful people. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1560
|
Posted - 2015.08.17 20:24:12 -
[44] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Andreus Ixiris wrote:If I was talking to a mirror, I'd at least be having a more rational conversation, you nullsec puppet. That's it. Very good. Can't actually argue with what your nose is being rubbed in, so attack the person saying it. The Federation, folks. Such wonderful people.
That all depends on which peole in the Federation you talk to... |
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
5642
|
Posted - 2015.08.17 21:14:33 -
[45] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:That's it. Very good. Can't actually argue with what your nose is being rubbed in, so attack the person saying it. You never made any actual points. You just made baseless comparisons to the Amarrians - made even more ironic when there are many perfectly legitimate comparisons to the Amarr Empire one can make about the Federation that were apparently quite beyond you - and rambled disjointedly about drones.
You're a YC 111 graduate. I was providing support to Minmatar causes before you even started your training. Clearly, time well spent.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1052
|
Posted - 2015.08.17 22:08:57 -
[46] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:You're a YC 111 graduate. I was providing support to Minmatar causes before you even started your training. Clearly, time well spent.
But not before I began being Matari. So don't try lecturing me on the 'assistance' your sanctimonious Federation's been giving. Perverting our way of life for the sake of a few credits of aid. Faugh. |
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
5644
|
Posted - 2015.08.17 22:40:01 -
[47] - Quote
You know what the great thing is, though?
At least I didn't sell out my people to go and join Imperium.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
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Anabella Rella
Gradient
2008
|
Posted - 2015.08.17 22:41:24 -
[48] - Quote
I like a good tussle as much as the next person but, I fear the OP has confused fun and suicide.
Speaking as both a Federal citizen and a Minmatar freedom fighter I say "no" to this outlandish proposition. We'll free our people but, it won't be via a direct assault on the imperials.
When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
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Aldrith Shutaq
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1041
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Posted - 2015.08.17 22:50:17 -
[49] - Quote
This is why everyone with half a brain should join the Empire or State,
Only idiots want to kill us. |
Deitra Vess
Scope Works
570
|
Posted - 2015.08.17 22:58:18 -
[50] - Quote
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:This is why everyone with half a brain should join the Empire or State,
Only idiots want to kill us.
No, the idiots are just loud about it... |
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1054
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Posted - 2015.08.18 00:36:48 -
[51] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:You know what the great thing is, though? At least I didn't sell out my people to go and join Imperium.
Neither did I. As I told your esteemed colleague, I'm sending money home pretty much constantly. And you still haven't addressed the patently obvious point that all your protests of 'caring' are really just caring about your own ego and need to feel like wonderful people, helping out the poor widdle Matari.
Patronizing jackwagon. |
Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
603
|
Posted - 2015.08.18 01:14:16 -
[52] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Andreus Ixiris wrote:You know what the great thing is, though? At least I didn't sell out my people to go and join Imperium. Neither did I. As I told your esteemed colleague, I'm sending money home pretty much constantly. And you still haven't addressed the patently obvious point that all your protests of 'caring' are really just caring about your own ego and need to feel like wonderful people, helping out the poor widdle Matari. Patronizing jackwagon.
Does it matter what their motives are if they are willing to help and ask for nothing in return?
No?
Then you might want to boycott every support organisation and every charity ever, you cynical wench.
Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~ EVERGREEN ~ Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~Evergreen ~ Family
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1057
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Posted - 2015.08.18 01:36:21 -
[53] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote:Does it matter what their motives are if they are willing to help and ask for nothing in return?
Do their motives matter... to who? To people in need? A drowning man doesn't question the life preserver. And nobody with a brain expects him to. But to me?
Maybe if they were asking nothing in return, that'd be a valid question. Instead, they're asking for simpering little sycophants to bow and scrape and dance for their pleasure.
And even then? No, their motives don't matter to me - their honesty does. I'm not going give any respect to a bunch of self-righteous jerks who can't even admit to themselves why they're doing it. |
Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
605
|
Posted - 2015.08.18 01:53:36 -
[54] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Elmund Egivand wrote:Does it matter what their motives are if they are willing to help and ask for nothing in return? Do their motives matter... to who? To people in need? A drowning man doesn't question the life preserver. And nobody with a brain expects him to. But to me? Maybe if they were asking nothing in return, that'd be a valid question. Instead, they're asking for simpering little sycophants to bow and scrape and dance for their pleasure. And even then? No, their motives don't matter to me - their honesty does. I'm not going give any respect to a bunch of self-righteous jerks who can't even admit to themselves why they're doing it.
Perhaps you want to cite your sources. Last I checked, they haven't yet placed a list of demands on the Republic.
As for honesty, who is ever truly honest about the reasons behind their altruism? Neither should it be under consideration. Had they given you stuff and asked you to worship them personally? No? Then just take the damned thing and go! Last I recall, the Republic had no wings to fly with during her inception. If the Republic go around questioning honesty and motives of just about everyone, State, Federal or otherwise, for any offers of help, the Republic will likely not exist today.
If you want to be angry about anything, be angry with the Republic and her mismanagement. That was what landed the Republic citizen in this whole mess with antiquated and barely coping social infrastructure and etc in the first place.
Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~ EVERGREEN ~ Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~Evergreen ~ Family
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Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1336
|
Posted - 2015.08.18 07:57:15 -
[55] - Quote
One of the main reasons for all that federal help has always been about supporting an antagonistic power to the Amarr Empire, to serve as a counter balance and power check. They never really hide it, and that is basic strategy...
On that point the Federation has always been blessed that the Republic share the exact same strategic position, if not even more... |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
7007
|
Posted - 2015.08.18 07:59:33 -
[56] - Quote
Jandice Ymladris wrote:I feel your proposition is an unwise decision and not only because the Amarr navy is such a powerful force. Recently, people reported Drifters skirmishing with Gallente Gate patrols. Seems they took a shining for the Gallente for reasons not yet known. Keep in mind, I'm still collecting data on it, haven't got confirmation that it happens at other places or that it is restricted to the Gallente. In short: Drifters & Gallente Gate patrols trade shots but then stand down, reason for this behaviour is unknown. I reported on this disturbing behaviour in my latest article: Amarr Navy repels third Drifter AssaultIf anyone sees this behaviour, I'm very interested in what you have to say. Providing images of these aggressive exchanges would be greatly appreciated.
I would not be surprised if Roden had friends amongst the Drifters. Heck the old coot almost looks like one of them.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
610
|
Posted - 2015.08.18 08:03:17 -
[57] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:One of the main reasons for all that federal help has always been about supporting an antagonistic power to the Amarr Empire, to serve as a counter balance and power check. They never really hide it, and that is basic strategy...
On that point the Federation has always been blessed that the Republic share the exact same strategic position, if not even more...
The Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend.
Conventional wisdom, though obviously flawed.
I believe at this point it should be updated to 'The Enemy of my Enemy is a problem for later. For now they may be useful'.
Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~ EVERGREEN ~ Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~Evergreen ~ Family
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Haruchai Khan
Metropolitan Police Service
143
|
Posted - 2015.08.18 08:07:19 -
[58] - Quote
It is interesting that there appears to be more bile aimed at those who have been our benefactors, than is aimed at representatives of those who have enslaved us.
There are still many in the Republic that acknowledge and are deeply grateful for, the assistance and guidance of the Federation. I am one of those. Thank you.
As children grow and establish a sense of themselves as unique, it is not unusual for them to rebel against the parents that cared for them when they were vulnerable and dependent. That dependence is often seen as a burden, somehow an abnegation of their soaring sense of self. They say and do foolish things, sometimes hurtful things.
But once they are truly adult, they come to recognise the love and sacrifice of their parents - even if they do not adopt all their ways again.
The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.
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Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1336
|
Posted - 2015.08.18 08:18:49 -
[59] - Quote
There is a saying in Amarr Scripture.
"Surround yourself with the faithful, Stand together, for there is no strength like it under the heavens."
It is rather universal, and what the Federation has always been doing can also be akin of that I think... |
The Leopardess
Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
40
|
Posted - 2015.08.18 11:04:02 -
[60] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:There is a saying in Amarr Scripture.
"Surround yourself with the faithful, Stand together, for there is no strength like it under the heavens."
It is rather universal, and what the Federation has always been doing can also be akin of that I think...
Like worshipping false Gods, that sort of thing? They have neither fidelity nor faithfulness towards the one true God.
Faithfulness is not merely blind belief. It is a contractual obligation, the marriage-like relationship between Amarr and the divine. There's a good reason we call them infidels. They have committed infidelity to the most high! |
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