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Blancandrin
Servants of the Shard
0
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Posted - 2015.08.18 04:22:48 -
[1] - Quote
A question, are the followers of James315 and his 'New Order the ultimate Eve carebears?
I've returned to Eve after a gap of a few years and had a growing uneasy feeling that James315 and his 'New Order' are damaging the game. No specific reason, just a feeling.
Unitl CCP Ytterbium's article I FEEL SAFE IN CITADEL CITY crystalised the feeling:
Quote:One of the core philosophies of EVE Online is that acquired resources can be lost. This in turn keeps the economy in check, gives a risk versus reward in the game, and promotes conflict and bragging (who doesnGÇÖt love those juicy killmails?).
So where is the risk in what they do?
Their balance sheet seems healthy The New Order Gets Audited.
They always win - just look at their blog!
Doesn't the absence of risk make them the ultimate carebears thus damaging the game? |
Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
2453
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Posted - 2015.08.18 04:26:29 -
[2] - Quote
Here we go again. And I'm out of popcorn.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
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Blancandrin
Servants of the Shard
0
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Posted - 2015.08.18 04:35:41 -
[3] - Quote
Pity about the popcorn. Please tell me the answer from last time and save me a lot of time. |
Sasha Nyemtsov
Systems Administration and Control
160
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Posted - 2015.08.18 05:33:23 -
[4] - Quote
Blancandrin wrote:A question, are the followers of James315 and his 'New Order the ultimate Eve carebears?I've returned to Eve after a gap of a few years and had a growing uneasy feeling that James315 and his 'New Order' are damaging the game. No specific reason, just a feeling. Unitl CCP Ytterbium's article I FEEL SAFE IN CITADEL CITY crystalised the feeling: Quote:One of the core philosophies of EVE Online is that acquired resources can be lost. This in turn keeps the economy in check, gives a risk versus reward in the game, and promotes conflict and bragging (who doesnGÇÖt love those juicy killmails?). So where is the risk in what they do? Their balance sheet seems healthy The New Order Gets Audited. They always win - just look at their blog!Doesn't the absence of risk make them the ultimate carebears thus damaging the game?
Hi Blancandrin,
Risk Management is not Risk Aversion.
www.minerbumping.com
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Blancandrin
Servants of the Shard
0
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Posted - 2015.08.18 06:03:21 -
[5] - Quote
Got to give you A+ for eloquence and a nice combination of logical fallacies.
But, the use of Risk Management implies Risk Aversion, or why do it? Also, Risk Management taken to the limit implies no risk, hence the problem - I cannot see where the risk reward equation lies in the ingame actions.
Simple to refute, just give examples of real ongoing risk.
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1401
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Posted - 2015.08.18 06:34:55 -
[6] - Quote
Blancandrin wrote:Got to give you A+ for eloquence and a nice combination of logical fallacies.
But, the use of Risk Management implies Risk Aversion, or why do it? Also, Risk Management taken to the limit implies no risk, hence the problem - I cannot see where the risk reward equation lies in the ingame actions.
Simple to refute, just give examples of real ongoing risk.
Faction police, white knights shooting you at -10, opportunists shooting a flashy red passing by, the loot fairy not dropping what you want, friends showing up and repping/saving a freighter, no profitable targets during your play session, profitable target docking up/logging before you can get to them, targets baiting you with a trap, target's implants/links screwing with your calculations, and someone stealing your loot.
And then there the costs of living with a low sec status and/or tags to fix it, the loss of your ship with no insurance, 15 minutes of ship spinning after each bit of your "content", and 30 days of kill rights.
Those are just off the top of my head. But the heart of the issue is: it doesn't matter. Ganking actually puts no rewards into the game universe. No resources are generated, just moved around. Suicide ganking isn't a classic profession in that sense, but actually is the mechanism by which the designers of the game have implement "One of the core philosophies of EVE Online is that acquired resources can be lost."
Your stuff is always at risk to other players. That is a fundamental tenet of Eve. It applies to all players. For NPC corp members, the only non-consensual way left in the game to lose your stuff is by suicide ganking.
Don't expect this game mechanism to be going anywhere anytime soon. |
Avi Shekelstien
New Order Logistics CODE.
24
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Posted - 2015.08.18 08:32:35 -
[7] - Quote
Blancandrin wrote:Pity about the popcorn. Please tell me the answer from last time and save me a lot of time. CODE were considered elite PvP and helping with new player retention. Hope this helps. |
Blancandrin
Servants of the Shard
0
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Posted - 2015.08.18 08:45:38 -
[8] - Quote
Wow, you guys are good! The feigned indignation and the ever so subtle misdirection, almost perfect.
But, where did the stuff about ganking come from? Don't be offensive, it is a time honoured profession. I was talking about James315 being the ultimate carebear.
Still, I'm willing to digress, do you really expect me to believe James315 and his 'New Order' are only about ganking or that James315 and his 'New Order' are so extraordinary they have perfected ganking where others have failed?
Lets stick to the point, it is about the Eve risk/reward equation for James315 and his 'New Order' in their activities.
From what I can see, James315 and the 'New Order" have introduced a system of Third Party Funding into the equation, effectively exploiting EVE by eliminating the isk risk for James315 et al. Under James315's model the issues you mention become mere operating costs, nothing to threaten the viability of the operation. This is the point, there is no risk to James315 and his minions in their operations, nothing that can challenge or seriously threaten them.
James315's and his backers' stuff are not at risk to other players, lets be fair, don't you think they should be?
Do you see how your arguments only serve to strengthen my assertion that James315 and the 'New Order' are the ultimate carebears?
See this link for a discussion of third party funding. It could be read to suggest the real victms of James315's activities are the gankers, sort of getting less than the would otherwise...
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Avi Shekelstien
New Order Logistics CODE.
25
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Posted - 2015.08.18 08:51:39 -
[9] - Quote
James didn't choose the carebear life, the carebear life chose him |
Noragen Neirfallas
The Scope Gallente Federation
1754
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Posted - 2015.08.18 09:00:20 -
[10] - Quote
Does lack of isk risk make goons the mega ultimate care-bears?
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode favourite ISD
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Blancandrin
Servants of the Shard
0
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Posted - 2015.08.18 09:09:01 -
[11] - Quote
Avi Shekelstien wrote:Blancandrin wrote:Pity about the popcorn. Please tell me the answer from last time and save me a lot of time. CODE were considered elite PvP and helping with new player retention. Hope this helps.
So the killboards show - I've heard others too - elite ganker, elite griefer and even elite PK scum (and others too rude to mention). But hey, don't you want to win all and be know as Ultimate Carebears - don't be shy claim all the titles. |
Blancandrin
Servants of the Shard
0
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Posted - 2015.08.18 09:17:12 -
[12] - Quote
Avi Shekelstien wrote:James didn't choose the carebear life, the carebear life chose him
First vote for the Ultimate Carebear title! |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1405
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Posted - 2015.08.18 09:20:10 -
[13] - Quote
Blancandrin wrote: Still, I'm willing to digress, do you really expect me to believe James315 and his 'New Order' are only about ganking or that James315 and his 'New Order' are so extraordinary they have perfected ganking where others have failed?
Lets stick to the point, it is about the Eve risk/reward equation for James315 and his 'New Order' in their activities.
From what I can see, James315 and the 'New Order" have introduced a system of Third Party Funding into the equation, effectively exploiting EVE by eliminating the isk risk for James315 et al. Under James315's model the issues you mention become mere operating costs, nothing to threaten the viability of the operation. This is the point, there is no risk to James315 and his minions in their operations, nothing that can challenge or seriously threaten them.
James315's and his backers' stuff are not at risk to other players, lets be fair, don't you think they should be?
Do you see how your arguments only serve to strengthen my assertion that James315 and the 'New Order' are the ultimate carebears?
Oh, you are just trying to disparage the Saviour then?
Nah, New Order assets and their backer's stuff are at exactly the same risk as every other player's stuff when in a station. There is no difference than any other player corporation, alliance, coalition or organization so implying that they should be at some special risk is a little bit silly. What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
What argues against your assertion that James 315 is an uber-carebear is that unlike the typical ISK-obsessed hoarding behaviour characteristic of the typical carebear, James 315 literally just gives his assets away to those who are doing good work in enforcing the risk vs. reward design of the game. Seems like he is more like an anti-carebear in that his organization's purpose is to lose and destroy wealth, as well as stimulate risk, the direct opposite of what a carebear organization is trying to accomplish.
I am afraid though the New Order is just playing the same rules as everyone else. If you had the power to make New Order assets to be at risk, you would make everyone's assets at risk have a lot of angry carebears blaming you for the loss of their stuff, likely much of it to the same people who make up the New Order now. I will not presume to know what the Saviour thinks, but I bet James 315 would back such an initiative to make in-station assets and ISK vulnerable.
Besides those assets James 315 collects do not materialize out of thin air - they are subject to the same risks as any asset generation in the game. If people choose to give them to a charitable organization such as the New Order, that is their prerogative. Perhaps you should consider some fundraising?
On reflection, it seems like this post has more of the stench of impotent failure than a real attack on James 315. Remember, don't hate the player, hate the game.
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Blancandrin
Servants of the Shard
0
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Posted - 2015.08.18 09:22:18 -
[14] - Quote
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Does lack of isk risk make goons the mega ultimate care-bears?
lol - still actually managed to have some good fights with the goons. |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1405
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Posted - 2015.08.18 09:26:20 -
[15] - Quote
Blancandrin wrote:Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Does lack of isk risk make goons the mega ultimate care-bears? lol - still actually managed to have some good fights with the goons. You can fight James 315. There is a provision in the Code on how you can initiate a duel with him. It is right at the end. |
Avi Shekelstien
New Order Logistics CODE.
26
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Posted - 2015.08.18 10:17:02 -
[16] - Quote
Blancandrin wrote:Avi Shekelstien wrote:Blancandrin wrote:Pity about the popcorn. Please tell me the answer from last time and save me a lot of time. CODE were considered elite PvP and helping with new player retention. Hope this helps. So the killboards show - I've heard others too - elite ganker, elite griefer and even elite PK scum (and others too rude to mention). But hey, don't you want to win all and be know as Ultimate Carebears - don't be shy claim all the titles. We care about highsec, care about emergent gameplay, care about content creation, care about the new player experience, care about player retention. So yes we care a lot. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
14175
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Posted - 2015.08.18 10:29:51 -
[17] - Quote
Apparently doing well and having a viable business plan makes you a carebear?
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Blancandrin
Servants of the Shard
0
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Posted - 2015.08.18 10:56:14 -
[18] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Blancandrin wrote: Still, I'm willing to digress, do you really expect me to believe James315 and his 'New Order' are only about ganking or that James315 and his 'New Order' are so extraordinary they have perfected ganking where others have failed?
Lets stick to the point, it is about the Eve risk/reward equation for James315 and his 'New Order' in their activities.
From what I can see, James315 and the 'New Order" have introduced a system of Third Party Funding into the equation, effectively exploiting EVE by eliminating the isk risk for James315 et al. Under James315's model the issues you mention become mere operating costs, nothing to threaten the viability of the operation. This is the point, there is no risk to James315 and his minions in their operations, nothing that can challenge or seriously threaten them.
James315's and his backers' stuff are not at risk to other players, lets be fair, don't you think they should be?
Do you see how your arguments only serve to strengthen my assertion that James315 and the 'New Order' are the ultimate carebears?
Oh, you are just trying to disparage the Saviour then? Nah, New Order assets and their backer's stuff are at exactly the same risk as every other player's stuff when in a station. There is no difference than any other player corporation, alliance, coalition or organization so implying that they should be at some special risk is a little bit silly. What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. What argues against your assertion that James 315 is an uber-carebear is that unlike the typical ISK-obsessed hoarding behaviour characteristic of the typical carebear, James 315 literally just gives his assets away to those who are doing good work in enforcing the risk vs. reward design of the game. Seems like he is more like an anti-carebear in that his organization's purpose is to lose and destroy wealth, as well as stimulate risk, the direct opposite of what a carebear organization is trying to accomplish. I am afraid though the New Order is just playing by the same rules as everyone else. If you had the power to make New Order assets to be at risk, you would make everyone's assets at risk have a lot of angry carebears blaming you for the loss of their stuff, likely much of it to the same people who make up the New Order now. I will not presume to know what the Saviour thinks, but I bet James 315 would back such an initiative to make in-station assets and ISK vulnerable. Besides those assets James 315 collects do not materialize out of thin air - they are subject to the same risks as any asset generation in the game. If people choose to give them to a charitable organization such as the New Order, that is their prerogative. Perhaps you should consider some fundraising? On reflection, it seems like this post has more of the stench of impotent failure than a real attack on James 315. Remember, don't hate the player, hate the game.
Wow, no hate here, mate, and you have a few good points. But, hey, calm down a bit (your eloquence is slipping).
Let's be clear, James315 holds himself out to be special, no need for me to nominate him. James315 and his 'New Order' always win, they never lose - just look at their blog. If they always win and never lose, does not it stand to reason that the risk/reward equation is broken as it applies to them? Unless the blog is lying to us, how can anything else be true?
I'm a little disappointed, I was hoping for either simple yes/no answers to my question and/or some more creative answers. You code guys always seem to follow the same formula in your postings. Are you issued with a style guide? So just to save a bit of time I'll give you a standardised reply:
- Opening personal insult - Ignored
- Irrelevant misleading detail - read for insights
- James315 made out to be a good guy - I know I know - please stop
- 'New Order" praised and congratulated - some genuine creativity, usually makes the whole post worth reading - please help I think I'm addicted to their blog.
- Concluding personal insult to show just how bad I am compared to the code - Yes I'm evil carebear at heart, I've been ganked by the code at a cost of 0.005% of my assets - I'm devastated will probably quit (obvious lie - warning you I was evil) and I apologise for the sharp claws and teeth should I ever manage to actual catch a code agent (seem to be extremely rare).
Want to play some more? |
Blancandrin
Servants of the Shard
0
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Posted - 2015.08.18 11:02:54 -
[19] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Apparently doing well and having a viable business plan makes you a carebear?
Did I say that, wait let me read what I wrote....
No, what I said was having no risk makes you the "Ultimate Carebear". (Uber if you prefer.)
Don't get the wrong idea, I think your business plan is really cool - a little too good for comfort. I sort of miss my old carebear friends who just might have found it a bit too confronting.
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Blancandrin
Servants of the Shard
0
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Posted - 2015.08.18 11:09:36 -
[20] - Quote
Avi Shekelstien wrote:Blancandrin wrote:Avi Shekelstien wrote:Blancandrin wrote:Pity about the popcorn. Please tell me the answer from last time and save me a lot of time. CODE were considered elite PvP and helping with new player retention. Hope this helps. So the killboards show - I've heard others too - elite ganker, elite griefer and even elite PK scum (and others too rude to mention). But hey, don't you want to win all and be know as Ultimate Carebears - don't be shy claim all the titles. We care about highsec, care about emergent gameplay, care about content creation, care about the new player experience, care about player retention. So yes we care a lot. Cool I'll count that as a yes vote! |
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
14176
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Posted - 2015.08.18 11:09:45 -
[21] - Quote
Blancandrin wrote: Did I say that
Literally no, actually yes.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Leto Thule
Origin. Black Legion.
3357
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Posted - 2015.08.18 11:13:17 -
[22] - Quote
Ehrmahgad another f'in CODE. thread.
Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment
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Blancandrin
Servants of the Shard
0
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Posted - 2015.08.18 11:14:50 -
[23] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Blancandrin wrote:Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Does lack of isk risk make goons the mega ultimate care-bears? lol - still actually managed to have some good fights with the goons. You can fight James 315. There is a provision in the Code on how you can initiate a duel with him. It is right at the end.
My Dad told me I should always read to the end of a document. Failed again!
Maybe one-day, but to be honest I suck at one-on-one PVP. Also, I'm a carebear and only fight over assets of significant value...
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1406
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Posted - 2015.08.18 11:20:48 -
[24] - Quote
Blancandrin wrote:Let's be clear, James315 holds himself out to be special, no need for me to nominate him. James315 and his 'New Order' always win, they never lose - just look at their blog. If they always win and never lose, does not it stand to reason that the risk/reward equation is broken as it applies to them? Unless the blog is lying to us, how can anything else be true? As I explained above you seem confused about what risk vs. reward means. It applies primarily to resource generation, not necessarily PvP. You don't get more loot drops from your opponent because you risked a more shiny ship. The Code is 100% PvP.
The Code always wins because it defines the winning conditions itself. A particular target maybe too tanked, or paying too much attention to gank, but because the Code has set out to make players tank ships and not go AFK, that is a win. If the target is exploded while anti-tanked and AFK, well that is also a win as New Order players enjoy ganking stuff. Even if the ganker somehow screws up and fails the gank they are still generating content, serving as targets, increasing the perceived risk in highsec and the profile of the New Order, other goals of the New Order.
As long as CCP maintains player-driven risk in highsec, the Code cannot lose. James 315 and the New Order could go away, but the central ideas of the Code are unbeatable. They are in a sense, the distilled essence of Eve.
Quote:Want to play some more? I am not sure what you are hoping to accomplish. Somehow decrease the reputation of the New Order? Hope to get CODE. members upset that some anonymous forum alt called James 315 a 'carebear'? Your arguments are nonsensical and purely semantic in any case. If you feel better about yourself, please feel free to call James 315 and the New Order "Ultimate Carebears".
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Desert Frog
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
14
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Posted - 2015.08.18 11:47:50 -
[25] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:As I explained above you seem confused about what risk vs. reward means. It applies primarily to resource generation, not necessarily PvP. You don't get more loot drops from your opponent because you risked a more shiny ship. The Code is 100% PvP. The Code always wins because it defines the winning conditions itself. A particular target maybe too tanked, or paying too much attention to gank, but because the Code has set out to make players tank ships and not go AFK, that is a win. If the target is exploded while anti-tanked and AFK, well that is also a win as New Order players enjoy ganking stuff. Even if the ganker somehow screws up and fails the gank they are still generating content, serving as targets, increasing the perceived risk in highsec and the profile of the New Order, other goals of the New Order. As long as CCP maintains player-driven risk in highsec, the Code cannot lose. James 315 and the New Order could go away, but the central ideas of the Code are unbeatable. They are in a sense, the distilled essence of Eve. Quote:Want to play some more? I am not sure what you are hoping to accomplish. Somehow decrease the reputation of the New Order? Hope to get CODE. members upset that some anonymous forum alt called James 315 a 'carebear'? Your arguments are nonsensical and purely semantic in any case. If you feel better about yourself, please feel free to call James 315 and the New Order "Ultimate Carebears".
My thunder was stolen... Winning isn't always measurable through traditional metrics, be it killboards or wallets. CODE's metric is completely intangible.
Bedouin of the galactic shipping lanes...
+é+» +º+ä+¿+¦+º+¦+è+½ +à+å +ú+ä+ü +º+ä+¼+à+º+ä +¬+¦+¦+ê +ú+ê+ä+ª+â +º+ä+¦+è+å +ü+¦+è+¦+¬ +¦+ä+ë +º+ä+¦+ü+º+»+¦
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
24823
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Posted - 2015.08.18 11:57:13 -
[26] - Quote
Like many real world organisations that "always win", CODE. sets their own victory conditions and use social media platforms to disseminate their propaganda; welcome to the meta game.
Apparently it's also time for this thread again
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Blancandrin
Servants of the Shard
0
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Posted - 2015.08.18 11:58:59 -
[27] - Quote
Leto Thule wrote:Ehrmahgad another f'in CODE. thread.
Yea - I might have made a mistake.
Back after a long break and could not resist the temptation - sorry for those who have lived through all the others.
Still think I'm making my point, something is broken when there is no risk. Don't really know the cause but don't think it is ganking. The only obvious new thing used by James315 is Third Party Funding, so probably a combination of that and changes done by CCP
Any ideas?
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Leto Thule
Origin. Black Legion.
3358
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Posted - 2015.08.18 12:12:25 -
[28] - Quote
Blancandrin wrote:Leto Thule wrote:Ehrmahgad another f'in CODE. thread. Yea - I might have made a mistake. Back after a long break and could not resist the temptation - sorry for those who have lived through all the others. Still think I'm making my point, something is broken when there is no risk. Don't really know the cause but don't think it is ganking. The only obvious new thing used by James315 is Third Party Funding, so probably a combination of that and changes done by CCP Any ideas?
Yeah I have one. Leave highsec.
Also New Order Agents are not risk averse. There is a 100% chance their ships will die in a fire every single time they undock.
Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
24825
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Posted - 2015.08.18 12:26:25 -
[29] - Quote
Blancandrin wrote:Still think I'm making my point, something is broken when there is no risk. Don't really know the cause but don't think it is ganking. The only obvious new thing used by James315 is Third Party Funding, so probably a combination of that and changes done by CCP
Any ideas? There's still risk involved in ganking, gankers have just figured out ways to minimise the risks as much as they can.
For instance, there's a risk of failure, the risk of a target paying attention and being prepared, the risk of losing the loot to someone who's on the ball, the risk of the loot fairy being a greedy git, the risk of anti-gankers suddenly getting their act together and actually having a plan beyond "we must stop this criminal plague" and making a lot of noise.
Changes to mechanics have forced gankers to become proficient at what they do and develop doctrines to counter those changes. Third party funding is part of that and nothing more than an SRP, something that is nothing new when it comes to ganking, Goons have had it in place for years for their various hisec holidays.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1508
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Posted - 2015.08.18 12:30:26 -
[30] - Quote
Risk vs. reward has something to do with balancing loot tables from NPCs and not what players may gain when attacking other players who do not even take some basic steps to protect their stuff.
To make the space even more secure by whatever means will only increase the feeling for safety and make our targets even more fat.
Hope that helps to fix your wrong idea of the situation.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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