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Hemmo Paskiainen
498
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Posted - 2015.08.18 13:53:38 -
[1] - Quote
The carriers and supers, why could someone make the automatic assumption that you need them for seizing sov space? Well,... the answer is a bit simple, because you need them in case the defender brings remote repping capitals/supers
Perhaps a problem lies in there. For any ship smaller than a capital, the rock paper scissor principle works. But soon as capitals are on the field, the paper and the scissor turns into rocks or stones (supers).
There is no efficient way to counter supers with subcaps unless there is a 4 to 1 blob of them. And that encourage blobbing and is ISK discriminating. The jumpfatique correction were just sort off a symptom curing, and not a cause curing.
Dropping capitals without the proper support should be punishable.
Dear CCP, it is time for a battleship sized anti-capital bomber.
"Relativity equals time plus momentum: if it can be erased by a single click on a button, would it be worth spending your time?"
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Lu Ziffer
Jelly Baby Corporation Fidelas Constans
73
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Posted - 2015.08.18 14:31:09 -
[2] - Quote
This again
Counter to supercaps with subcaps ??
Anything that has a neutralizer .
Why the hell should a ship worth 100bil isk be killed by something that is worth 300mil?
The record to kill a titan with full capacitor is somewhere around 2 minutes with 40 subcaps 20 of them BS the rest were recons and dictors.
You are allowed to bring capitals against supercapitals you might loose some but loosing 5dreadnaughts to kill a titan is a good deal.
If someone puts a full supercapital fleet on the field worth 10 trillion ISK, that is 10.000.000.000.000 ISK you should not be able to kill it with something worth a single supercarrier.
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Sonya Corvinus
Chickenhawk.
77
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Posted - 2015.08.18 14:36:13 -
[3] - Quote
http://i.imgur.com/c7Li10r.gifv |
SFM Hobb3s
Wrecking Shots Black Legion.
349
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Posted - 2015.08.18 17:24:11 -
[4] - Quote
Yikes. Not like everyone knows that no matter what kind of fleet you bring in, once the cyno goes up and more archons start bridging in its time to just go home. Caps are not the problem. Remote repping is the problem, and is the problem for all things Eve. Take away, or at least SEVERELY nerf remote repping, and what you will get is reliance on your own local reps, and LOTS more ships dying on both sides. Both things I would like to see. |
Garrett Howe
Spectres
10
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Posted - 2015.08.18 17:32:58 -
[5] - Quote
SFM Hobb3s wrote:Yikes. Not like everyone knows that no matter what kind of fleet you bring in, once the cyno goes up and more archons start bridging in its time to just go home. Caps are not the problem. Remote repping is the problem, and is the problem for all things Eve. Take away, or at least SEVERELY nerf remote repping, and what you will get is reliance on your own local reps, and LOTS more ships dying on both sides. Both things I would like to see. I agree. If I bring a bunch of subcapitals to fight a hundred supercaps, I shouldn't be able to kill them all, but I think I should be able to at least suicide into one. |
Lu Ziffer
Jelly Baby Corporation Fidelas Constans
75
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Posted - 2015.08.18 17:40:50 -
[6] - Quote
Quote:Yikes. Not like everyone knows that no matter what kind of fleet you bring in, once the cyno goes up and more archons start bridging in its time to just go home. Caps are not the problem. Remote repping is the problem, and is the problem for all things Eve. Take away, or at least SEVERELY nerf remote repping, and what you will get is reliance on your own local reps, and LOTS more ships dying on both sides. Both things I would like to see. You can disable remote reps very easyly with EWAR.The only exception to this are supercarriers but they are 15 times the value, so it is kind of balanced. You still can put their capacitor under pressure but todo this to 20 supercarriers at once needs actual piloting skill and communication. |
admiral root
Red Galaxy
3165
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Posted - 2015.08.18 20:02:27 -
[7] - Quote
Lu Ziffer wrote:Why the hell should a ship worth 100bil isk be killed by something that is worth 300mil?
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
CODE. forum - everyone's welcome (no shiptoasters)
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2564
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Posted - 2015.08.18 20:06:41 -
[8] - Quote
I'm more for mini-capital HIC-like ships that can tackle or jam supers or sieged ships. The actual killing should be done by a fleet.
Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom
Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm
The Succubus looks meaner
But the Revenant cleaner
Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1308
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Posted - 2015.08.18 20:19:33 -
[9] - Quote
Supers should be invincible. They cost way too much to lose. If I'm flying a 30 billion isk ship "I WIN" should be seeping out of every nook and crany. I should also get a magical invincible hangar where I can place it and fly other ships and have fun knowing it will always be there waiting for me. I paid to win damnit - I DESERVE TO WIN. |
Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
398
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Posted - 2015.08.18 22:35:59 -
[10] - Quote
As I have said many times before, and others too. Search the forum before posting.
Reported for redundancy. |
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Sigras
Conglomo
1050
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Posted - 2015.08.19 01:12:52 -
[11] - Quote
Lu Ziffer wrote:This again
Counter to supercaps with subcaps ??
Anything that has a neutralizer .
Why the hell should a ship worth 100bil isk be killed by something that is worth 300mil? This is a common misconception among people who dont understand good game design theory. More expensive does not equal strictly better otherwise the people who win are the people with the most ISK. Everything should have a counter that isnt "bring more ISK to the fight"
Lu Ziffer wrote:The record to kill a titan with full capacitor is somewhere around 2 minutes with 40 subcaps 20 of them BS the rest were recons and dictors. Those are the numbers for a lone titan against a fleet... In a real battle, you have 30-60 carriers with RR keeping the titan alive and bouncing cap between each other to negate neuts.
The problem isnt and has never been small groups of cap ships. The problem is that en masse, cap ship groups break the game because their large amount of HP is resistant to alpha strike, and their ability to RR each other far outstrips any reasonable sub-capital counter. |
Xackattack Avianson
You are a Pirate
0
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Posted - 2015.08.19 01:41:16 -
[12] - Quote
Why should subcapitals be the direct counter to capital ships? |
Ben Ishikela
51
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Posted - 2015.08.19 03:15:58 -
[13] - Quote
I'd suggest that cap transfers of over 100% efficiency are a problem here as well as on other places.
mini-cap-hic sounds great!
While ISK correlates good with power, it is not a garanteee to win. however when stakes are high, suddenly it is nearly equal.
Immunity to Ewar is the problem. imho caps need support. (this might also be an incentive for late-gamers to train newbros to fly that precious maulus)
Add new modules or ships that can use tactics and strategies to shake any op meta or use totaly different gameplay yourself to make it happen! yay :)
....und Local braucht ganz dringend ein Update!
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Valkin Mordirc
1401
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Posted - 2015.08.19 03:20:48 -
[14] - Quote
Yes because the answer to fixing EVE is adding more bombers.
Bombs fix EVERYTHING!
#DeleteTheWeak
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
739
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Posted - 2015.08.19 03:25:49 -
[15] - Quote
How are you adjusting bombs to not make this half assed return of the Titan AOE DD, now on smaller cheapers ships for more fun OP? Drop these cap/super killers...on a vanilla bs subcap fleet. Watch them go booooom!
You can't have bombs be harmless to sub caps to favor cap/super killing.
Sooooo....just how would this new BS be not used like a AOE spam weapon of doom to any sub cap fleet as well.
Now you might say new bomb.
Okay...your homework assignment. How does this new bomb not wipe a sub cap like a rokh with 500 mn MWD II but hurts an archon. this...I'd like you work out. The archon has a lower sig radius....run a fitting tool to see for yourself.
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Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
389
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Posted - 2015.08.19 06:01:11 -
[16] - Quote
So the question is what you gonna do if PL drop on your subcap fleet their cap/sc hammer? |
Sigras
Conglomo
1051
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Posted - 2015.08.19 06:58:13 -
[17] - Quote
Xackattack Avianson wrote:Why should subcapitals be the direct counter to capital ships? because capital ships need a counter, and if the only counter to capital ships is MORE capital ships than whoever has the MOST capital ships has an uncounterable force.
Valkin Mordirc wrote:Yes because the answer to fixing EVE is adding more bombers.
Bombs fix EVERYTHING! RTS players understand that AOE is the best way to counter blobs. For as smart as Eve players usually are, why do you people continue to have such problems understanding this?
I dont mean wild, haphazard, bring-back-the-old-DD, grid-clearing AOE; bombs are great. They take skill and they work perfectly at countering battleship blobs. In fact, bombs are one of the reasons that people dont use battleships in large fleets anymore. Apparently it's easier to switch ship doctrines than it is to teach fleet members to do something other than "orbit anchor at optimal"
Zan Shiro wrote:Okay...your homework assignment. How does this new bomb not wipe a sub cap like a rokh with 500 mn MWD II but hurts an archon. this...I'd like you to work out. The archon has a lower sig radius....run a fitting tool to see for yourself. A gravity bomb that does damage based on how much mass your ship has. next question |
Nyalnara
AdAstra. Beach Club
112
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Posted - 2015.08.19 07:24:37 -
[18] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Zan Shiro wrote:Okay...your homework assignment. How does this new bomb not wipe a sub cap like a rokh with 500 mn MWD II but hurts an archon. this...I'd like you to work out. The archon has a lower sig radius....run a fitting tool to see for yourself. A gravity bomb that does damage based on how much mass your ship has. next question So, because current bombs are a pain for shield fleets because of bloated signatures, what you really want now is nerfing armor fleets? Seriously, whatever you come up with to break capitals will be more efficient on subcaps, unless tracking/sig based, especially if aoe based.
In case of ponies, keep calm and start running.
French half-noob. Founder of [DEUPP]Dark Evil Undead Ponies Productions.
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Barrogh Habalu
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
1038
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Posted - 2015.08.19 07:35:05 -
[19] - Quote
Zan Shiro wrote:Okay...your homework assignment. How does this new bomb not wipe a sub cap like a rokh with 500 mn MWD II but hurts an archon. this...I'd like you to work out. The archon has a lower sig radius....run a fitting tool to see for yourself. By applying arbitrary class restriction to what those bombs can hurt, obviously.
The only new anti-capital bomb I can maybe get behind is the one with decent damage, at least 15 seconds of flight time before detonation, capital-sized explosion radius and AoE of 1 m. Maybe.
That, however, hurt triage and small capital groups more than it hurts capital fleets, so probably still no.
Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
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Sigras
Conglomo
1051
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Posted - 2015.08.19 08:58:40 -
[20] - Quote
Nyalnara wrote:Sigras wrote:Zan Shiro wrote:Okay...your homework assignment. How does this new bomb not wipe a sub cap like a rokh with 500 mn MWD II but hurts an archon. this...I'd like you to work out. The archon has a lower sig radius....run a fitting tool to see for yourself. A gravity bomb that does damage based on how much mass your ship has. next question So, because current bombs are a pain for shield fleets because of bloated signatures, what you really want now is nerfing armor fleets? Seriously, whatever you come up with to break capitals will be more efficient on subcaps, unless tracking/sig based, especially if aoe based. the worst case scenario is a plated Megathron with its MWD running. This worst case scenario is ~15% the mass of a nidhoggur (the lightest carrier)... not nearly as bad as if you were to go with sig radius which is ~79% of a nidhoggur (also the smallest carrier)
Additionally I thought of another way these things could be cap ship only bombs. They can be targeted and destroyed, but they're small, like 40 m^2, and they're immune to bombs and drones. Dreads and Titans couldnt target these things in time, but sub caps could. |
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Nyalnara
AdAstra. Beach Club
118
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Posted - 2015.08.19 09:41:24 -
[21] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Nyalnara wrote:Sigras wrote:Zan Shiro wrote:Okay...your homework assignment. How does this new bomb not wipe a sub cap like a rokh with 500 mn MWD II but hurts an archon. this...I'd like you to work out. The archon has a lower sig radius....run a fitting tool to see for yourself. A gravity bomb that does damage based on how much mass your ship has. next question So, because current bombs are a pain for shield fleets because of bloated signatures, what you really want now is nerfing armor fleets? Seriously, whatever you come up with to break capitals will be more efficient on subcaps, unless tracking/sig based, especially if aoe based. the worst case scenario is a plated Megathron with its MWD running. This worst case scenario is ~15% the mass of a nidhoggur (the lightest carrier)... not nearly as bad as if you were to go with sig radius which is ~79% of a nidhoggur (also the smallest carrier) Additionally I thought of another way these things could be cap ship only bombs. They can be targeted and destroyed, but they're small, like 40 m^2, and they're immune to bombs and drones. Dreads and Titans couldnt target these things in time, but sub caps could.
They would still probably travel too fast for most ships to track them.
In case of ponies, keep calm and start running.
French half-noob. Founder of [DEUPP]Dark Evil Undead Ponies Productions.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1321
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Posted - 2015.08.19 14:19:40 -
[22] - Quote
I think his idea has a symantics problem. Bombs = AOE and anyone that enjoyed the AOE DD days understands clearly why that sort of thing isn't going to happen.
Let me rework if for you.
How about a sub-cap that can fire a single cap killer massive citadel torpedo. No splash damage. You lock your target and fire. It travels slowly to the target and when it gets there, there is a big boomy sound and the the targeted cap ship gets kicked in the junk. Think of it as one of those bunker buster bombs of today - It's big, it's heavy and it penetrates into the cap ship and then detonates. Maybe give it a unique damage profile that splits it's damage equally between shield/armor/hull - that would sure add interest and aid in explosions.
Make it big and slow. Make it targetable by subcaps. Make it susceptible to firewalling. Heck make it webbable. Web them until they run out of go juice and float useless in space.
Make it so big that the ship firing it is specialized to fire that monster torp only. Make it so big that the ship needs a fitting service of somekind to reload.
I think these features would add a lot of interest to the end game fights. Sure you could bring a fleet of these things, but you have to weigh the fragility of the payload, the fragility of the ships themselves and the involved reload requirements agains the bigger plan. I see it as fairly easy to balance via, damage values, ehp of the torps themselves, speed of the torps, and reload times/requirements. Relaod requirements would include: services required, actual reload time and physical size of the payload (how many can fit in a hauler).
It's use could be to have a (fleet size to be determined by damage value) fleet of these ships come on to the field, strike a specific target and then leave the field for reload.
This might be the interesting piece to the end game puzzle that allows for more than 2 explosions / hour in these fights. Do you go for the support carriers and dreads to take out their knees? Do you mass up a little more and go for the heart and kill supers? "Dude they just blew up our fleet of reloading haulers" (that would mess up a well laid battle plan)
I think this would add interest to end game fights, add more explosions / time in end game fights and maybe break the laggy grind cycle to a small extent. It would be the invisible threat you have to plan for that might or might not be there. It would be a whole new facet to cap/super cap warfare.
EDIT: When I put cap killer citadel torpedo I don't mean a special battleship can head shot a carrier. I mean the torp is designed for use against capitals. Definitely NOT 1 torp to kill a carrier/dread. It should take several. |
Nyalnara
AdAstra. Beach Club
118
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Posted - 2015.08.19 14:52:03 -
[23] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Maybe give it a unique damage profile that splits it's damage equally between shield/armor/hull - that would sure add interest and aid in explosions.
No. Because remote hull rep while fleet fight is not exactly the most efficient thing. Would make these things overpowered, as in "warp fleet at 0 from enemy titan, lock and blap", because get enough hits and there's no hull anymore, thus titan goes boom, and almost un-remote-able.
In case of ponies, keep calm and start running.
French half-noob. Founder of [DEUPP]Dark Evil Undead Ponies Productions.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1322
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Posted - 2015.08.19 15:21:50 -
[24] - Quote
Nyalnara wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Maybe give it a unique damage profile that splits it's damage equally between shield/armor/hull - that would sure add interest and aid in explosions. No. Because remote hull rep while fleet fight is not exactly the most efficient thing. Would make these things overpowered, as in "warp fleet at 0 from enemy titan, lock and blap", because get enough hits and there's no hull anymore, thus titan goes boom, and almost un-remote-able.
Yeah, that's reasonable. How about just across shield/armor. Direct Hullwonking would deffo be OP. I was just trying to salvage the guys idea and wasn't depoying a well thought out plan.
As much as I'd like to see archon sentries and even ishtard sentries go poof on a massive scale I think it's reasonable to just outright say NO to any AOE schemes. Anyone that has experienced them on the Eve scale knows those things are not meant for this game. |
Nyalnara
AdAstra. Beach Club
118
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Posted - 2015.08.19 16:28:10 -
[25] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Nyalnara wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Maybe give it a unique damage profile that splits it's damage equally between shield/armor/hull - that would sure add interest and aid in explosions. No. Because remote hull rep while fleet fight is not exactly the most efficient thing. Would make these things overpowered, as in "warp fleet at 0 from enemy titan, lock and blap", because get enough hits and there's no hull anymore, thus titan goes boom, and almost un-remote-able. Yeah, that's reasonable. How about just across shield/armor. Direct Hullwonking would deffo be OP. I was just trying to salvage the guys idea and wasn't depoying a well thought out plan. As much as I'd like to see archon sentries and even ishtard sentries go poof on a massive scale I think it's reasonable to just outright say NO to any AOE schemes. Anyone that has experienced them on the Eve scale knows those things are not meant for this game.
Means bringing both armor and shield reps. Or logistics of both, at least. And Nidhoggurs are not exactly the tankier carriers, whether shield or armor.
In case of ponies, keep calm and start running.
French half-noob. Founder of [DEUPP]Dark Evil Undead Ponies Productions.
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Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2284
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Posted - 2015.08.19 16:49:20 -
[26] - Quote
Lu Ziffer wrote: Why the hell should a ship worth 100bil isk be killed by something that is worth 300mil?
Why not? Do you want fights or do you want people hidden away in their holes avoiding conflict forever so they can build ever bigger and more expensive ships?
~ Professional Forum Alt -á~
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Nyalnara
AdAstra. Beach Club
118
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Posted - 2015.08.19 16:56:24 -
[27] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Lu Ziffer wrote: Why the hell should a ship worth 100bil isk be killed by something that is worth 300mil?
Why not? Do you want fights or do you want people hidden away in their holes avoiding conflict forever so they can build ever bigger and more expensive ships?
Well, if my 100B ship can be killed by a 300M one, I'll definitely keep it well hidden, somewhere where the sun never shine...
In case of ponies, keep calm and start running.
French half-noob. Founder of [DEUPP]Dark Evil Undead Ponies Productions.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1323
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Posted - 2015.08.19 17:08:46 -
[28] - Quote
Nyalnara wrote:Sentamon wrote:Lu Ziffer wrote: Why the hell should a ship worth 100bil isk be killed by something that is worth 300mil?
Why not? Do you want fights or do you want people hidden away in their holes avoiding conflict forever so they can build ever bigger and more expensive ships? Well, if my 100B ship can be killed by a 300M one, I'll definitely keep it well hidden, somewhere where the sun never shine...
Well, if all the 100B ships stayed well hidden where the sun never shines that would **** off like 200 guys and make like 100,000 guys happpy. I'm not seeing a problem with that on the bigger scale. |
Jaz Antollare
Deadly Loneliness
111
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Posted - 2015.08.19 17:10:55 -
[29] - Quote
I want my new battleship bomber! It could be an easy solution, - black ops with 4-6 bomb launchers! :D
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Ben Ishikela
51
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Posted - 2015.08.19 17:23:15 -
[30] - Quote
why is noone talking about the focused void bomb here?
Add new modules or ships that can use tactics and strategies to shake any op meta or use totaly different gameplay yourself to make it happen! yay :)
....und Local braucht ganz dringend ein Update!
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