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Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance
605
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Posted - 2015.08.21 17:34:18 -
[1] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=290346 Now that this thread is long locked I feel like I can post the idea again.
Quote:Hello
I have an issue regarding the price for faction weapons in the LP store. In brief the cost in tags for these weapons is too high. Tag generation rates have suffered from a series of patches and game design changes but the lp store tag costs haven't been adjusted to compensate. What we see now is these weapons are disproportionately expensive to other weapons of the same type. This is not an issue of drop rates: players can physically build these modules and that needs to be accounted for.
I request a rebalance of their cost to increase availability as the end goal.
Long version:
The central issue of the current balance for faction weapons are their meta level. With some of these modules having a meta level of 9 in terms of CCPs internal balancing metric this would require them to be very expensive and have a degree of power higher than the lower meta levela. Where faction weapon stats specifically are considered they typically possess a few key bonuses. First of all they generate heat when overheated at around half the rate of t1 and t2 modules. Secondly they have a bit higher ammo capacoty. In terms of caldari/fed navy turrets I observed slightly higher optimal on caldari faction rails while fed navy rails had more fall off. Lastly navy weapons have less fitting requirements.
In theory a dedicated fw player should be able to, through only his own efforts, obtain the tags for and build himself a full faction ship complete with faction weapons/support modules and ammo. It would be time consuming but the overall benefit for this player would be possession of a ship that is considerably tougher than the base t1 variant and have a full compliment of high grade weapons. His ship would have efficient tanking modules and better weapons for general purpose combat. This is a noble goal in itself - the player has built this ship through his own work.
The issues start when you begin to account for how he will build it. There is only one way to get faction stuff - tags. Tags are generated in three ways primarily those being mission running, fw missions or coercing faction police to fight. Before the fw rebalance a couple of years ago it was possible to use the bountiful faction rats found in button complexes as a steady source of tags. With the other dominant alternative being L4 misssion running it was much easier just to use fw for collecting tags - a theory supported by the internal game mechanics of the LP store especially the fw LP store. The rebalance was enacted to reduce the npcs in a complex to bare minimum as a measure of enabling players to fight on more even terms. Unfortunately this stripped one of the most popular methods of tag generation from the game entirely and the fall out from this has been faction weapons are a tiresome grind to build now.
In terms of balance of the faction meta items themselves I do not intend any action here. I am solely concerned with making these modules easier to acquire. In a perfect world faction stuff ahould be more expensive than t2 gear where they are just outright better mainly in terms of like cal navy shield extenders or pds. Things like passive shield hardeners or boost amps are outright better than t2 and cost a respectable amount alrrady. It's when looking at weapons that things start getting crazy. As of this writing cal navy ham launchers are 60 million each - a price not justifiable through any metric. They are so expensive only because to build them costs an upfront few million from the lp store and also something like 500 tags. Five hundred.
CCP should in my opinion reduce the LP store costs of these weapons and weapon bpcs in preference to creating a more accessible tag generator. Why? Because if a new source of tags is created but is created in the wrong way or place nothing will change. People are already not expending the effort to farm hundreds of tags and they won't do it in the future either. By reducing the LP store cost however you let the market drive demand ny virtue of much lower costs and an associated increase in supply as people's pre existing tags get more mileage. Faction gear already out performs t2 stuff by a not inconsiderable margin depending on what you're looking for, lower prices will drive demand up. The increase in demand will see prices fall further over time and hopefully have the tertiary effect of making FW a more attractive and serious occupation in and of itself. With LP stores acting like a giant isk sink for the game getting people to buy more stuff from there will benefit the economy and help to drive inflation down. I won't specifcy any prices for a full faction fit but if conjecture put it at 2 -4 x the price of a t2 ship I think that could be very reasonable
I went to look for faction weapons today for some fits and hey its 61mil/ea for navy launchers. or 170-400 tags. Come on CCP.
Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1609
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Posted - 2015.08.21 17:38:03 -
[2] - Quote
I agree that CCP needs to consider adding more sources for the tags. At least in the past, this was particularly true of the cruiser and frigate tags.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
1807
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Posted - 2015.08.21 20:06:32 -
[3] - Quote
Well, you get the tags from the missions you run against the other empires. :>
The amount of tags that you need for these guns (judging by, for instance, the Amarr Navy LP store for the IN Mega Beam Laser is laughable. I get the required tags in about a couple of L4 missions for Angels. And with the current situation for pirate ship BPCs, it's more or less the only reliable income source for that activity.
The price for them, on the other hand, is entirely market driven. If you'd someone made more of them available, you'd influence a whole lot more than just these guns. Even if their price somehow came down to 10M or so or maybe even 5, T2 is still better as it can use T2 ammo and gets T2 spec bonuses, and Meta 4 guns are a lot less expensive and give only slightly less damage. Just had a quick look on a 3 T2 Heat Sink Abaddon with Mega Pulses (T2 - IN - M4): 916 - 867 - 833, I fail to see why anyone would pay millions of ISK for guns that only marginally perform better than Meta 4 or who can have T2 for a real difference over Meta 4 and with less money involved.
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
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Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance
606
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Posted - 2015.08.22 02:57:20 -
[4] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Well, you get the tags from the missions you run against the other empires. :>
The amount of tags that you need for these guns (judging by, for instance, the Amarr Navy LP store for the IN Mega Beam Laser is laughable. I get the required tags in about a couple of L4 missions for Angels. And with the current situation for pirate ship BPCs, it's more or less the only reliable income source for that activity.
The price for them, on the other hand, is entirely market driven. If you'd someone made more of them available, you'd influence a whole lot more than just these guns. Even if their price somehow came down to 10M or so or maybe even 5, T2 is still better as it can use T2 ammo and gets T2 spec bonuses, and Meta 4 guns are a lot less expensive and give only slightly less damage. Just had a quick look on a 3 T2 Heat Sink Abaddon with Mega Pulses (T2 - IN - M4): 916 - 867 - 833, I fail to see why anyone would pay millions of ISK for guns that only marginally perform better than Meta 4 or who can have T2 for a real difference over Meta 4 and with less money involved.
Well that was kind of my point? If navy weapons aren't overpowered then why is making them such a chore? They do have some pretty important advantages same as faction webs and scrams etc but the weapons themselves typically combine relatively cheap fitting costs with some kind of uniquely high stat. But I digress, if you try to build say a faction rocket launcher kestrel you're looking at needing in the realms of 1600 tags for the rack of launchers that are not all the same, are not guaranteed to drop and are not necessarily easy to access. You could probably make the argument that its faster and easier to just simply grind the 60ish mil to satisfy current market cost than it is to make a single launcher. Can anyone kill the required 200-300 npcs for a single launcher within 1 hour? That's pretty impressive?
Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1614
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Posted - 2015.08.22 04:04:27 -
[5] - Quote
It totally depends on the modules you are trying to purchase.
The ones that require Battleship tags are a cinch to purchase - Battleship tags are abundant. There are a lot more players running Level IV missions than the low level missions - Level IV missions have lots of Battleships.
The ones that require Cruiser tags usually have a decent price - the Cruiser modules are very desirable and Cruiser tags are relatively less common than Battleship tags.
The Frigate tags are not found in nearly the same numbers. Even if you specifically seek out Level 1-3 anti-faction missions, you will not get enough of the Frigate tags to make it worth your time.
The system is designed as if the Frigate tags were the most common, when in fact they are not. The pyramid is inverted.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2582
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Posted - 2015.08.22 04:18:23 -
[6] - Quote
I agree that faction modules are absurdly high in price for relatively weak increases over tech 2, and sometimes weak increases over tech one. Some faction modules are hard to argue any reason to use them over tech 2. Also, as deadspace modules are becoming more accessible, their prices are dipping down, sometimes even lower than the faction variants while possessing FAR better stats.
I think tech 2 should be significantly more expensive, and faction should be way cheaper.
Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom
Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm
The Succubus looks meaner
But the Revenant cleaner
Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
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Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance
607
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Posted - 2015.08.22 04:38:21 -
[7] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:It totally depends on the modules you are trying to purchase.
The ones that require Battleship tags are a cinch to purchase - Battleship tags are abundant. There are a lot more players running Level IV missions than the low level missions - Level IV missions have lots of Battleships.
The ones that require Cruiser tags usually have a decent price - the Cruiser modules are very desirable and Cruiser tags are relatively less common than Battleship tags.
The Frigate tags are not found in nearly the same numbers. Even if you specifically seek out Level 1-3 anti-faction missions, you will not get enough of the Frigate tags to make it worth your time.
The system is designed as if the Frigate tags were the most common, when in fact they are not. The pyramid is inverted.
It doesn't help that you can't deliberately choose faction missions from agents in highsec. I don't know about FW missions but those are a massive hassle to get 99% of the time and the reward for running level 1's in it probably still makes it not worth it once travel time and exposure to danger is factored. Tags aren't LP, they're a physical commodity and if you pop a WCS atron it doesn't matter but popping someones FW-L1 running LML caracal with 150 tags on board is kind of a big deal.
Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
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