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Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
591
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Posted - 2015.08.22 22:35:47 -
[31] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:Well, the last mission of the level 4 Caldari Epic Arc has 4 Elite Cruisers that do Perma-Jamming which pretty much forces players to use a missile boat and FoF's to complete it.
That's just one example, there's plenty more situations like that. The overpowered perma-jam basically negates using gun ships.
DMC Basically this. Jamming accomplishes nothing but making PvE content inaccessible for turret users. It doesn't make any sense from a game design perspective; I can think of at least 3 pirate factions (Serpentis, Sanshas, and Guristas) where there is simply no reason to use a turret ship over a drone boat. Marauders. Bastion mode. Won't work for him Diomedes. He's too impatient to do the long train time. Apparently he has never trained for a Carrier or Dread.
Actually I just use a drone boat or decline perma-jam missions. Which is my point - NPC ewar accomplishes nothing except to make drone boats the superior choice for yet another environment.
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Sporx Utensil
Colossus Enterprises
8
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Posted - 2015.08.22 23:36:01 -
[32] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Actually I just use a drone boat or decline perma-jam missions. Which is my point - NPC ewar accomplishes nothing except to make drone boats the superior choice for yet another environment.
Ya. That was my point as well - it's not about isk per hour or some other nonsense people are posting. it's about Ishtars Online. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1460
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Posted - 2015.08.23 03:23:44 -
[33] - Quote
Hulk Miner wrote:ECCM does **** all against NPC
Not true! that line was said by CCPers, yet disproved by players. Sensor strength and NPC jam strength matter.
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Actually I just use a drone boat or decline perma-jam missions. Which is my point - NPC ewar accomplishes nothing except to make drone boats the superior choice for yet another environment.
examples? I've run missions for years in caldari space and permajams pretty much never happen.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
881
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Posted - 2015.08.24 00:38:24 -
[34] - Quote
I've been screwing around on a brand new character for the past month, a Caldari guy. Just to see what it's like to be a noob these days. The jams in the Guristas Refuge anoms were so annoying I decided to train Gallente frigates and drones and use a Tristan. Threw my Merlin away. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12175
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Posted - 2015.08.24 13:14:49 -
[35] - Quote
Sporx Utensil wrote:I'm sorry to bring this up again. It's really bugging me.
Yes I can fly Ishtar Online like everyone else, but this is bad game design.
I have jacked ship racial str to over 60 using ECCMII and the low version.... the jams cannot be stopped.
Will CCP ever look into this or say something about it?
Yes there are ways around it. Yes I can deal. But I am becoming obsessed with the idea that this is exceptionally poor game design. A Sansha 10/10 is a walk in the park, a Gurista 10/10 is annoying and restricted to a tiny number of possible ships.
Sorry. Yes I'm bad, yes I'm whining, yes I should biomass myself, yes to all that. But please CCP... say something about this? It isn't fun.
ps - no you can't have my stuff.
Someone has never heard of the Guristas line of pirate ships. You know, the Gila and Rattlesnake that can use drones and FoF missiles and laugh at jams...
Also, given how Guristas deadspace gear prices have fallen through the floor, it seems Guristas aren't jamming enough lol. |
Sporx Utensil
Colossus Enterprises
9
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Posted - 2015.08.24 17:50:11 -
[36] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: Someone has never heard of the Guristas line of pirate ships. You know, the Gila and Rattlesnake that can use drones and FoF missiles and laugh at jams...
You obviously didn't read the thread.
This is about Ishtar Online and the homogenization of ships in gurista space pve.
Its also about CCP saying 'most pve damage is done by drones, so nerf drones', when the reason it is done by drones is because it is the only viable weapon system against jam chains.
It is also about newbros in PVE who quickly learn that its Ishtar Online and must train drones straight away.
Nobody is saying the jams are difficult to circumvent.
Ishtar Online. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12180
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Posted - 2015.08.24 18:09:14 -
[37] - Quote
Sporx Utensil wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: Someone has never heard of the Guristas line of pirate ships. You know, the Gila and Rattlesnake that can use drones and FoF missiles and laugh at jams...
You obviously didn't read the thread. This is about Ishtar Online and the homogenization of ships in gurista space pve. Its also about CCP saying 'most pve damage is done by drones, so nerf drones', when the reason it is done by drones is because it is the only viable weapon system against jam chains. It is also about newbros in PVE who quickly learn that its Ishtar Online and must train drones straight away. Nobody is saying the jams are difficult to circumvent. Ishtar Online.
At what point in time was it different. When I started playing I was told "use drones for Guristas, take a sensor booster for serpentis, kill blood raiders at range or use a cap booster set up, they neut, and avoid turret ships against blood raiders and sansha, they tracking disrupt, don't use small ships against angels, the target paint".
You are complaining about something that has always been the case, mainly because you live in guristas space. ECM is nothing compared to what blood raiders will do to you in their 10/10, i wish I could pop out some drones or pop in some fof missiles in blood space, but no, can't take a tengu or ishtar into the blood 10.10 like you can the guristas 10/10.
Come back and complain about how terrible Gursitas jamming is after doing Blood Raide Temple complex and the like.
Guristas are the second easiest rats to kill after Serpentis. You have PERFECT tools to combat them (ishtars, tengus, gila/rattlesnake, Armageddon, Typhoon Fleet Issue, Dominix, All the Raven and Scorpion class ships etc etc) where as most ofther races of rats force even fewer choices of ship to take.
I live in Angel space right now (over the last 8 years, i've lived in every npc pirate region), when using battleships to PVE, angel ewar is a joke. What isn't a joke is the massive amounts of damn near omni damage they spew at you and how much you have to tank your ships to survive unless you speed tank. If Guristas loot wasn't so over farmed, I'd trade you angel space for guristas space in a flat second.
You're entitled to your opinion, but you are complaining about nothing. Don't like jamms? Get the appropriate implant set, double ECCM your turret ship (or use an alt/friend to remote ECCM you and stop worrying about it.
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Sporx Utensil
Colossus Enterprises
9
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Posted - 2015.08.24 18:21:02 -
[38] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: You're entitled to your opinion, but you are complaining about nothing.
I know from seeing your posts over the years that arguing or debating with you is useless pigeon chess.
We just disagree.
I think it is an issue because it severely homogenizes the game more than any other npc mechanic, and I think that is bad for the game.
You don't see that as a problem. Understood.
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Estella Osoka
CrapTards
711
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Posted - 2015.08.24 20:05:12 -
[39] - Quote
It's not an issue. Certain ships are best for certain rats. That is how it has been in EVE since I started playing, and has always been the case. I got tired of the jamming and moved to Gallente space, where the chances of getting a Guristas mission is very low. Now I fly Marauders and I don't worry about EWAR at all except for neuting. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12182
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Posted - 2015.08.24 21:44:47 -
[40] - Quote
Sporx Utensil wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: You're entitled to your opinion, but you are complaining about nothing.
I know from seeing your posts over the years that arguing or debating with you is useless pigeon chess. We just disagree. I think it is an issue because it severely homogenizes the game more than any other npc mechanic, and I think that is bad for the game. You don't see that as a problem. Understood.
No, we don't just disagree. You are measurably incorrect. As others have explained to you, the same thing happens with every NPC race (even drones, even though they don't do ewar, ships that do EM damage have an advantage against them due to resists).
Just because you don't know how to counter a thing (or just plain don't like a thing) doesn't mean that thing is broken, modern ecm is nothing like what it used to be. And as has been said, countering jamming (via fit and implants) is much easier than countering other kinds of Ewar (fly a mach like I do and try to fit enough tracking mods to counter the tracking disruption in the Sansha 10/10 for example, you can lower jam chance, you can't totally negate tracking disruption).
I'm willing to bet you haven't even tried most of the things/ships we;'ve talked about here, and things he haven't. I'd love to see Guristas jam a smart bombing battleship for example. |
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Sporx Utensil
Colossus Enterprises
10
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Posted - 2015.08.24 21:55:52 -
[41] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:You are measurably incorrect.
pigeon chess, indeed. i congratulate you on your victory, little pigeon.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1474
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Posted - 2015.08.24 22:14:56 -
[42] - Quote
Sporx Utensil wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: Someone has never heard of the Guristas line of pirate ships. You know, the Gila and Rattlesnake that can use drones and FoF missiles and laugh at jams...
You obviously didn't read the thread. This is about Ishtar Online and the homogenization of ships in gurista space pve. Its also about CCP saying 'most pve damage is done by drones, so nerf drones', when the reason it is done by drones is because it is the only viable weapon system against jam chains. It is also about newbros in PVE who quickly learn that its Ishtar Online and must train drones straight away. Nobody is saying the jams are difficult to circumvent. Ishtar Online.
lets ignore the other 4 pirate factions, drones, sleepers, incursions, and the various factions you fight in missions. Lets also ignore the rattlesnake, ratting carriers, Domis, all the other drone ships, pretty much every ship bigger than a destroyer has a drone bay. Clearly it is all ishtars
how many npcs are killed while pilots are semi or even fully afk? Drone boats are pretty much the best at this style of play, Missile boats are okay, but have to reactivate the launchers every so often. Many consider pve to be boring and minimize time spent pveing. an afk or semi afk piliot is far more likely to clear all npcs and do more damage in missions, where in anoms the whole point is killing npcs for bounty. Where mission blitzers probably do far less damage overall, since they target only the critical ships, and do much less drone damage as drones aren't optimal for blitzing.
to say everyone flies ishtars because of gurista jams is just
@ChainsawPlankto
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DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
51412
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Posted - 2015.08.24 22:34:02 -
[43] - Quote
Wasn't the whole point of the ship re-balance suppose to make all Factions same type of ship class equal without having to cross train into other racial variants ?
The fact that there's only a few ships that can effectively counter the Guristas Perma-Jam says otherwise.
DMC
'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
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Sporx Utensil
Colossus Enterprises
11
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Posted - 2015.08.24 22:34:31 -
[44] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:to say everyone flies ishtars because of gurista jams is just
great point, except nobody ever said that.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1474
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Posted - 2015.08.24 23:18:24 -
[45] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:Wasn't the whole point of the ship re-balance suppose to make all Factions same type of ship class equal without having to cross train into other racial variants ?
The fact that there's only a few ships that can effectively counter the Guristas Perma-Jam says otherwise.
DMC I don't think equal was ever a goal. The goal that I remember was to give every ship a role. and for the most part that was achieved by giving each ship in a class roughly a similar number of hitpoints, slots, and fitting. there were of course a few racial and role based modifications. However to make say a zealot an effective gurista ratter was probably never an intention of balance. You probably could use a sacrilege or an armageddon with a decent outcome however.
I'm still not sure what situations result in permajams, I think the only example I've seen in this thread was an epic arc mission, and to make that representative of all guristas is a leap I'm not willing to make. And I can only think of two personal examples, One was a merlin in a lv2 mission (gurista's blockade), where I was pretty much permajammed, Also taking enough damage I couldn't kill the jammers safely in the times the jams failed. Most of my tank was reliant on kiting, and if it went for the jammers I might have been able to brawl them down. When I came back in a cruiser I didn't get jammed once. I probably could have dropped a web (which I didn't really even need) for an ECCM and have been fine. The second was as a complete noob I messed up aggro in a "the assault" and couldn't target the scram frigs in between jams to get my drones on them. Perhaps couldn't even get a lock on the Ecm cruisers as I could usually kill them. My tank was slowly failing, and I did lose my ship, but I also came back and completed the mission. The assault is now a mission I have completed 100s, maybe even 1000s of times.
I've seen people recommend a vindicator to be a good choice for farming gurista anoms. For belt ratting pretty much anything works. As I said earlier ishtars and tengus are good choices regardless of jams, due to damage type and resist profiles. And also as I said earlier people like drone ships because they can semi-afk them.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1474
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Posted - 2015.08.24 23:20:09 -
[46] - Quote
Sporx Utensil wrote:Chainsaw Plankton wrote:to say everyone flies ishtars because of gurista jams is just great point, except nobody ever said that. as far as I can tell it is the whole point of the thread.
@ChainsawPlankto
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DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
51433
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Posted - 2015.08.25 00:49:12 -
[47] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:Wasn't the whole point of the ship re-balance suppose to make all Factions same type of ship class equal without having to cross train into other racial variants ?
The fact that there's only a few ships that can effectively counter the Guristas Perma-Jam says otherwise.
DMC I don't think equal was ever a goal. The goal that I remember was to give every ship a role. and for the most part that was achieved by giving each ship in a class roughly a similar number of hitpoints, slots, and fitting. there were of course a few racial and role based modifications. However to make say a zealot an effective gurista ratter was probably never an intention of balance. You probably could use a sacrilege or an armageddon with a decent outcome however. I'm still not sure what situations result in permajams, I think the only example I've seen in this thread was an epic arc mission, and to make that representative of all guristas is a leap I'm not willing to make. And I can only think of two personal examples, ................................................................ Yeah, I posted that Epic Arc mission example. It's the very last mission of the Caldari Epic Arc and it's the only one I can't complete solo due to the unbalanced EWAR / Perma-Jam from the 4 Guristas Elite Cruiser NPC's. I have no problem completing all of the other missions in that arc, some of them may take a bit longer due to random bursts of EWAR jamming, but I can still complete them.
In fact, I can complete all of the other Epic Arcs solo with my Loki set up as a gun ship backed by Drones. I seriously believe the Guristas EWAR is bugged and needs to looked / toned down a bit.
Now I've heard of complaints before about Guristas EWAR being overpowered in other situations or sites which doesn't surprise me. However from my experience, the last mission of the Caldari Epic Arc is the only one I have a gripe about. I even tried fitting up the best ECM mods available to counter it but to no avail. I also tried to turn the Loki into a Missile boat to use FoF's which isn't good at all. After hours and hours of trying to get the Elite Cruisers (all other NPC's in that mission constantly get between you and the Elite Cruisers), I gave up and just called in a friend.
That's how I complete it now, I just call in another ship to target the EWAR Cruisers after I get full aggro, mission is completed in about 10 minutes.
DMC
'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
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Leila Meurtrier
Why Am I Not Surprised
1
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Posted - 2015.08.25 13:43:59 -
[48] - Quote
We just need EWAR module that reduces armament efficiency/control range of drones. Tears for everyone! Well, except missiles, but missiles got fair chunk of problems, tweaking defender usage between faction/fire chances/damage will suffice. That way, nobody wins. |
Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
713
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Posted - 2015.08.25 14:09:14 -
[49] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:Chainsaw Plankton wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:Wasn't the whole point of the ship re-balance suppose to make all Factions same type of ship class equal without having to cross train into other racial variants ?
The fact that there's only a few ships that can effectively counter the Guristas Perma-Jam says otherwise.
DMC I don't think equal was ever a goal. The goal that I remember was to give every ship a role. and for the most part that was achieved by giving each ship in a class roughly a similar number of hitpoints, slots, and fitting. there were of course a few racial and role based modifications. However to make say a zealot an effective gurista ratter was probably never an intention of balance. You probably could use a sacrilege or an armageddon with a decent outcome however. I'm still not sure what situations result in permajams, I think the only example I've seen in this thread was an epic arc mission, and to make that representative of all guristas is a leap I'm not willing to make. And I can only think of two personal examples, ................................................................ Yeah, I posted that Epic Arc mission example. It's the very last mission of the Caldari Epic Arc and it's the only one I can't complete solo due to the unbalanced EWAR / Perma-Jam from the 4 Guristas Elite Cruiser NPC's. I have no problem completing all of the other missions in that arc, some of them may take a bit longer due to random bursts of EWAR jamming, but I can still complete them. In fact, I can complete all of the other Epic Arcs solo with my Loki set up as a gun ship backed by Drones. I seriously believe the Guristas EWAR is bugged and needs to be looked at and toned down a bit. Now I've heard of complaints before about Guristas EWAR being overpowered in other situations or sites which doesn't surprise me. However from my experience, the last mission of the Caldari Epic Arc is the only one I have a gripe about. I even tried fitting up the best ECCM mods available to counter it but to no avail. I also tried to turn the Loki into a Missile boat to use FoF's which isn't good at all. After hours and hours of trying to get the Elite Cruisers (all other NPC's in that mission constantly get between you and the Elite Cruisers), I gave up and just called in a friend. That's how I complete it now, I just call in another ship to target the EWAR Cruisers after I get full aggro, mission is completed in about 10 minutes. DMC
DMC, really? I figured an old vet like yourself would have Marauders trained. That missions took me about 5-10 minutes in a Kronos. Now if you can't fly one of those, a Rattlesnake using RLMLs with FoFs works fairly well. After all, the frigates in that missions are the real pain. Drones can take care of the rest. |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
51444
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Posted - 2015.08.25 21:22:31 -
[50] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:
DMC, really? I figured an old vet like yourself would have Marauders trained. That missions took me about 5-10 minutes in a Kronos. Now if you can't fly one of those, a Rattlesnake using RLMLs with FoFs works fairly well. After all, the frigates in that missions are the real pain. Drones can take care of the rest.
I tend to role play a bit in this game and mainly fly Minmatar ships along with a few other Faction ships such as Ore, SoE and Angel. I don't dual box with alt accounts and even though I tend to fly solo, I do have helpful friends in-game when needed.
I have Marauders trained and can fly a Vargur but I actually like flying medium and small class hulls that are very agile and quick to warp with a small signature radius. That's probably why I rarely ever have encounters with Mission Invaders. I especially like the T3 Cruiser due to it's versatility.
The Bastion Mode is a relatively new feature, before that Marauders were easily susceptible to EWAR which is why I never gave them a second thought. I guess I could re-think that aspect now.
Anyway, my point - the last mission of the Caldari Epic Arc is a good example that clearly shows how some instances of NPC EWAR is vastly overpowered and needs to be re-balanced.
DMC
'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
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Fl4chz4ng3
Lost in shadow Brothers of Tangra
6
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Posted - 2015.08.26 12:23:55 -
[51] - Quote
This does not seem very difficult...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89I8nKF-2uA
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12214
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Posted - 2015.08.26 13:28:11 -
[52] - Quote
It is for people who choose to whine rather than be creative and find new ways lol.
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Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
713
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Posted - 2015.08.26 18:07:24 -
[53] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:Estella Osoka wrote:
DMC, really? I figured an old vet like yourself would have Marauders trained. That missions took me about 5-10 minutes in a Kronos. Now if you can't fly one of those, a Rattlesnake using RLMLs with FoFs works fairly well. After all, the frigates in that missions are the real pain. Drones can take care of the rest.
I tend to role play a bit in this game and mainly fly Minmatar ships along with a few other Faction ships such as Ore, SoE and Angel. I don't dual box with alt accounts and even though I tend to fly solo, I do have helpful friends in-game when needed. I have Marauders trained and can fly a Vargur but I actually like flying medium and small class hulls that are very agile and quick to warp with a small signature radius. That's probably why I rarely ever have encounters with Mission Invaders. I especially like the T3 Cruiser due to it's versatility. The Bastion Mode is a relatively new feature, before that Marauders were easily susceptible to EWAR which is why I never gave them a second thought. I guess I could re-think that aspect now. Anyway, my point - the last mission of the Caldari Epic Arc is a good example that clearly shows how some instances of NPC EWAR is vastly overpowered and needs to be re-balanced. DMC
1. The last mission in the Caldari Epic Arc is not a good example. The Epic Arc missions are supposed to be harder than your standard L4 mission. The Assault, Blockade, and Worlds Collide would be good examples, but I've used a Loki against Guristas in all of them and survived.
2. Minmatar ships suffer the worst to ECM due to the sig strength on them sucks.
3. Cyclone, Claymore, and Typhoon Fleet Issue are good ships to use against rats that use ECM. All 3 use missiles and can therefore use FoF missiles. Typhoon Fleet Issue can also use 5 sentry drones.
ECM is nowhere near as bad as it was when I first started playing, and I personally think it is in a good place. And this comes from a person who was in Gallente FW for 2 years and had to contend with Caldari NPC rats who jam in the FW missions. |
Sporx Utensil
Colossus Enterprises
11
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Posted - 2015.08.26 18:24:25 -
[54] - Quote
That is massively impressive. Great video. |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
51449
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Posted - 2015.08.27 01:11:11 -
[55] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote: 1. The last mission in the Caldari Epic Arc is not a good example. The Epic Arc missions are supposed to be harder than your standard L4 mission. The Assault, Blockade, and Worlds Collide would be good examples, but I've used a Loki against Guristas in all of them and survived.
2. Minmatar ships suffer the worst to ECM due to the sig strength on them sucks.
3. Cyclone, Claymore, and Typhoon Fleet Issue are good ships to use against rats that use ECM. All 3 use missiles and can therefore use FoF missiles. Typhoon Fleet Issue can also use 5 sentry drones.
ECM is nowhere near as bad as it was when I first started playing, and I personally think it is in a good place. And this comes from a person who was in Gallente FW for 2 years and had to contend with Caldari NPC rats who jam in the FW missions.
#1 - Actually the last mission of the Caldari Epic Arc is a perfect example of how overpowered and unbalanced the Guristas EWAR is, especially since it's constantly happening during the mission, thus the phrase PERMA-JAM.
Off hand I don't recall those other missions so I can't compare the EWAR in them to the last mission of the Caldari Epic Arc.
As for using a Loki to complete them, that's definitely doable if the EWAR is done in random bursts. However if it's constantly happening (Perma-Jam) then all gun ships including the Loki are unusable.
#2 - Sig strength ? I think you mean sensor strength and yes, it does suck. I boosted the Loki's sensor strength up past 70 and it still had no effect against the NPC Perma-Jam which only proves how overpowered and unbalanced that EWAR actually is.
#3 - Yes those are all good ships to use because they are indeed Missile Boats. However my whole point is the Perma-Jam makes all Gun Ships obsolete and unusable, even when fitting to buff up sensor strength. I'm not asking for the EWAR to be removed, just needs to be toned down in strength with a break in it every once in a while. I definitely don't mind if it takes time to complete the mission as long as I get a chance to do just that. As it is now, a solo Gun Ship has no chance at all to complete it.
If I can complete all the other missions in the Caldari Epic Arc solo using a Gun Ship, then I should be able to also do the same in the very last mission of that arc. I shouldn't have to change ships just for one mission that's clearly plagued with a bugged out NPC EWAR mechanic.
DMC
'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
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