Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
420
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 01:05:12 -
[1] - Quote
1. Why do all the other damage systems: missiles, energy and hybrid weapons have the same damage options at T1 and T2 ammo, while projectiles do all four damage types at T1 and only explosive and kinetic at T2. Further if you use the short range auto cannon ammo you deal almost exclusively explosive damage. In essence at T2 short range auto cannon dmg goes from all four dmg tyoes at T1 to pretty much only Explosive at T2.
2. Why does short range auto cannon ammo have optimal and worse tracking speed penalties? It is intended to be used at short range but is penalized for short ranged dmg dealing?
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
|
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
3574
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 01:08:30 -
[2] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:1. Why do all the other damage systems: missiles, energy and hybrid weapons have the same damage options at T1 and T2 ammo, while projectiles do all four damage types at T1 and only explosive and kinetic at T2. Further if you use the short range auto cannon ammo you deal almost exclusively explosive damage. In essence at T2 short range auto cannon dmg goes from all four dmg tyoes at T1 to pretty much only Explosive at T2.
2. Why does short range auto cannon ammo have optimal and worse tracking speed penalties? It is intended to be used at short range but is penalized for short ranged dmg dealing?
1) Because there are two T2 ammos for every turret class, and 4 damage types.
2) Because the short range T2 ammo is **** unless you're shooting something much larger than you, and that is true for every weapon system including missiles. Use faction shortrange and T2 longrange. Good advice on every turret. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
25732
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 01:12:37 -
[3] - Quote
1. Because Minmatar is the explosive race, and if anything it's the T1 ammo that is the abnormality.
2. Because you have to pay something for doing 40% (or 208%) more damage.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
420
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 01:39:59 -
[4] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote:1. Why do all the other damage systems: missiles, energy and hybrid weapons have the same damage options at T1 and T2 ammo, while projectiles do all four damage types at T1 and only explosive and kinetic at T2. Further if you use the short range auto cannon ammo you deal almost exclusively explosive damage. In essence at T2 short range auto cannon dmg goes from all four dmg tyoes at T1 to pretty much only Explosive at T2.
2. Why does short range auto cannon ammo have optimal and worse tracking speed penalties? It is intended to be used at short range but is penalized for short ranged dmg dealing? 1) Because there are two T2 ammos for every turret class, and 4 damage types. 2) Because the short range T2 ammo is **** unless you're shooting something much larger than you, and that is true for every weapon system including missiles. Use faction shortrange and T2 longrange. Good advice on every turret.
1. then i would suggest they either make an exception for proj ammo and make more T2 variants or get rid of the four T1 variants and just have two so that someone like me doesnt get the impression that T2 options should include all four dmg types, its confusing.
2. perhaps they should add a third T2 ammo to remove the need for using faction ammo for short range.
The system seems pretty screwed up as it is now.
Thanks for your thoughts, btw.
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
|
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
420
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 01:44:23 -
[5] - Quote
Tippia wrote:1. Because Minmatar is the explosive race, and if anything it's the T1 ammo that is the abnormality.
2. Because you have to pay something for doing 40% (or 208%) more damage.
1. well i agree they should clarify the situation one way or the other.
2. confused by the 40%(208%) comment.
thanks for your reply.
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
|
Jenshae Chiroptera
2248
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 01:45:38 -
[6] - Quote
Hush you! They might make projectiles as bad as blasters if you aren't careful.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
There are other ways to fix Null Sec stagnation and Fozzie SOV is the wrong approach.
|
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
3574
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 01:50:06 -
[7] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
1. then i would suggest they either make an exception for proj ammo and make more T2 variants or get rid of the four T1 variants and just have two so that someone like me doesnt get the impression that T2 options should include all four dmg types, its confusing.
2. perhaps they should add a third T2 ammo to remove the need for using faction ammo for short range.
The system seems pretty screwed up as it is now.
Thanks for your thoughts, btw.
T2 does not mean better. Only specialized. There is no reason for T2 shortrange to outperform faction shortrange.
Also, projectiles do not get to pick any damage type at any range. There are fewer than 4 ammos in each of the short, medium and long range categories. They are simply more flexible. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
25732
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 01:54:20 -
[8] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:1. well i agree they should clarify the situation one way or the other.
2. confused by the 40%(208%) comment.
thanks for your reply. 1. Meh. It's not really much to clarify. All weapons are different GÇö one of the advantages of (T1) projectiles is some limited damage type selection.
Arguably, missiles do the same, but that's more because there are 2-+ missile races: Caldari, Minmatar and (part of) Amarr, each with their own racial damage profile. So obviously, the missiles will have to support all of them, rather than just, say, the Caldari (often seen as GÇ£the missile raceGÇ¥) kinetic damage. Instead, the Caldari missile boats have a tendency to provide that bonus as part of the ship stats.
2. It's 40% more than Barrage and 208% more than the T1 ammo it's based on (Depleted Uranium).
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Hengle Teron
Order In Disorder Virtus Crusade Protectorate
56880
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 02:30:45 -
[9] - Quote
Tippia wrote:2. It's 40% more than Barrage and 208% more than the T1 ammo it's based on (Depleted Uranium). That's a lie.
Even though it says it's the variation of depleted uranium, it's obviously a version of fusion ammo, just like void is version of anti-matter. |
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
423
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 02:52:12 -
[10] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
1. then i would suggest they either make an exception for proj ammo and make more T2 variants or get rid of the four T1 variants and just have two so that someone like me doesnt get the impression that T2 options should include all four dmg types, its confusing.
2. perhaps they should add a third T2 ammo to remove the need for using faction ammo for short range.
The system seems pretty screwed up as it is now.
Thanks for your thoughts, btw.
T2 does not mean better. Only specialized. There is no reason for T2 shortrange to outperform faction shortrange. Also, projectiles do not get to pick any damage type at any range. There are fewer than 4 ammos in each of the short, medium and long range categories. They are simply more flexible.
Didnt mean to imply that the 'new' T2 ammo should outperform faction, it shouldnt, but generally faction only slightly bests T2 and the expense of faction usually isnt justified outside pvp or or highend fleet pve. If im understanding the other persons comment correctly T2 short isnt much use unless your blasting huge things which seems to imply that it wouldnt be much use in L4s for instance. Hence my question as to whether another T2 variant is justifiable.
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
|
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
25733
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 02:59:04 -
[11] - Quote
Hengle Teron wrote:That's a lie.
Even though it says it's the variation of depleted uranium, it's obviously a version of fusion ammo, just like void is version of anti-matter. It's not really a lie GÇö it is just what it is, and it is very specifically not like AM GåÆ Void.
Yes, functionally, it's closer to that relationship, but as you point out, it is a variation of DU.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Sarmatiko
1692
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 05:00:28 -
[12] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:1. well i agree they should clarify the situation one way or the other. Well you can always poke your favorite CCP developer about thesethings.
The fact that at some point devs even fully implemented advanced T2 ammo and never removed it after many inventory cleanups, kinda nullifies "minmatar explosive race" argument. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
5290
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 05:55:09 -
[13] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:2. Why does short range auto cannon ammo have optimal and worse tracking speed penalties? It is intended to be used at short range but is penalized for short ranged dmg dealing? Because auto-cannons operate primarily in falloff.
Operating in falloff gives flexibility to engagement range.
If you are in falloff, tracking is likely less of an issue too at that range. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
2249
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 05:59:23 -
[14] - Quote
Tippia wrote:...So you have Caldari and Gallente, with their Kn/Th profile ... ... with the way that Gallente can put out drones, that is their damage type selection method and with the way the fluctuate on speed, damage, range and so forth, they have a similar cost benefit mix like projectile ammunition.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
There are other ways to fix Null Sec stagnation and Fozzie SOV is the wrong approach.
|
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1460
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 06:24:08 -
[15] - Quote
Projectile ammo is different in a few ways. it has 3 short range ammos , 2 mid range ammos with tracking bonuses, and 3 long range ammos. Then all have different damage profiles. Hard to say they have an ammo of each damage type. That said with autocannons the range bonuses don't really do much, so most people just stick with the short range ammo, and maybe some mid range for the tracking bonus.
Laser and hybrid ammo have the same damage type for all, and just have increasing range, and less damage, then there is a cap use curve. boring!
hail does a lot of damage, therefor it gets a drawback or two. pretty much how most t2 ammos work. You should have been around years ago when no one used most t2 ammos because the penalties were even worse, they gave penalties to the ship as well.
@ChainsawPlankto
|
Cristl
248
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 08:07:50 -
[16] - Quote
Hail does 92.5% more damage than depleted uranium. It's 208% more than the long-range ammo types, and when was the last time you used those in an autocannon?
To be honest, ammo could use a balance pass - there's potential for a lot more interesting choices than "barrage or one of the faction short range ammos". Just making the ammo type affect falloff rather than (or as well as) optimal could help for projectiles. Maybe less variation in damage totals too. |
Arla Sarain
610
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 08:30:20 -
[17] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote: 1. then i would suggest they either make an exception for proj ammo and make more T2 variants or get rid of the four T1 variants and just have two so that someone like me doesnt get the impression that T2 options should include all four dmg types, its confusing.
2. perhaps they should add a third T2 ammo to remove the need for using faction ammo for short range.
The system seems pretty screwed up as it is now.
Thanks for your thoughts, btw.
1. How is it confusing, and even if it is, why shouldn't it? Dealing all four damage types is worse than dealing 1 damage type at a time.
2. Why is there a need for removing demand for faction ammo?
Hardly screwed. |
Zimmy Zeta
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
59435
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 08:32:54 -
[18] - Quote
Cristl wrote:
To be honest, ammo could use a balance pass - there's potential for a lot more interesting choices than "barrage or one of the faction short range ammos". Just making the ammo type affect falloff rather than (or as well as) optimal could help for projectiles. Maybe less variation in damage totals too.
You know what would be awesome? Get rid of polarized weapons and turn them into a t2 ammo instead (with all the initial drawbacks); you would be much more flexible and able to decide when the advantages would be worth the drawbacks.
I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it.
Yes, I do feel bad about it.
|
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
8284
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 10:18:10 -
[19] - Quote
Zimmy Zeta wrote:Cristl wrote:
To be honest, ammo could use a balance pass - there's potential for a lot more interesting choices than "barrage or one of the faction short range ammos". Just making the ammo type affect falloff rather than (or as well as) optimal could help for projectiles. Maybe less variation in damage totals too.
You know what would be awesome? Get rid of polarized weapons and turn them into a t2 ammo instead (with all the initial drawbacks); you would be much more flexible and able to decide when the advantages would be worth the drawbacks.
A thousand times yes, my Lady! If this were the case, my Rifter might yet fly proudly once more!!
[b]----
CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off.[/b]
|
Hal Morsh
Delusions of Granduer Two Drink Minimum
381
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 12:42:03 -
[20] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote:1. Why do all the other damage systems: missiles, energy and hybrid weapons have the same damage options at T1 and T2 ammo, while projectiles do all four damage types at T1 and only explosive and kinetic at T2. Further if you use the short range auto cannon ammo you deal almost exclusively explosive damage. In essence at T2 short range auto cannon dmg goes from all four dmg tyoes at T1 to pretty much only Explosive at T2.
2. Why does short range auto cannon ammo have optimal and worse tracking speed penalties? It is intended to be used at short range but is penalized for short ranged dmg dealing? 1) Because there are two T2 ammos for every turret class, and 4 damage types. 2) Because the short range T2 ammo is **** unless you're shooting something much larger than you, and that is true for every weapon system including missiles. Use faction shortrange and T2 longrange. Good advice on every turret. 1. then i would suggest they either make an exception for proj ammo and make more T2 variants or get rid of the four T1 variants and just have two so that someone like me doesnt get the impression that T2 options should include all four dmg types, its confusing. 2. perhaps they should add a third T2 ammo to remove the need for using faction ammo for short range. The system seems pretty screwed up as it is now. Thanks for your thoughts, btw.
Notice the reistsance profiles for T2 minmatar assault frigates and even T3's? They get more resists against amarr weapons for being T2. Some Caldari ships only allow kinetic damage bonus, whilst a T2 minmatar ship or two gives explosive damage bonus for a reason.
Caldari has damage selectiveness but limited in damage on certian ship types in usage. Minmatar gets all 4 damage types with decision towards application or short range, damage options. T2 being more powerful is limited to minmatar damage types. Gallente gets thermal and kinetic for T2 weapons, but is limited to only those in T1 ammo as well, but gets drones.
It's diversity, let EVE keep it's diversity. You can be good in any of them. I get maybe limiting the T1's as well to their race if T2's are lmited for the fact that it makes sense, but it isn't like that and it's likely a good thing.
I think projectiles and missles have much customization compared to lasers or hybrids for a reason. Someone had to have been austistic to mix all the variations evenly between the races properly, in balance and it how can be figured out. Galente are KIN/Therm limited but have drones while Amarr is limited and has some drones as well. It would be boring if everything each race had was damage type limited. If you are having trouble doing one thing with auto cannons and certain ammo why not try a different build?
I used blasters and had a hawk kite out of the 2500m range my blasters had, so instead I now fit tiny rails which can hit all of scram range at half damage because 100 dps is harmless if it cant hit. I also may have more room for other things, just gotta see what fits.
Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
|
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
25757
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 15:17:06 -
[21] - Quote
Cristl wrote:Hail does 92.5% more damage than depleted uranium. It's 208% more than the long-range ammo types, and when was the last time you used those in an autocannon? Actually, it turns out that I should probably look at the right size when calculating differencesGǪ
That said, the point remains: it's still a hefty boost over the ammo it's based on, so having a couple of drawbacks is to be expected. Doubly so when you consider the vague trend that short-range T2 ammo is meant for larger targets.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Gleb Koskov
Hedion University Amarr Empire
15
|
Posted - 2015.08.24 22:15:34 -
[22] - Quote
I don't like how Minmatar weapons are marketed with being the best at "selectable damage" when you have gallente drone ships being able field any damage type they desire. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
14292
|
Posted - 2015.08.24 22:21:47 -
[23] - Quote
Just be glad it's not lasers. At least you can throw in some faction ammo and get respectable dps with a variety of damage types, instead of being pigeonholed.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
5294
|
Posted - 2015.08.24 22:25:05 -
[24] - Quote
Gleb Koskov wrote:I don't like how Minmatar weapons are marketed with being the best at "selectable damage" when you have gallente drone ships being able field any damage type they desire. Minmatar ships, and weapons, were designed to attack Amarr ships... and vice versa.
Same for Gallente (in-your-face) vs. Caldari (sniping).
CCP has made balance passes to remove most of these racial differences, but still leaving things like damage types. |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
22909
|
Posted - 2015.08.24 22:27:35 -
[25] - Quote
Wait.. there is projectile ammo other than RF EMP?!?!?!
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
|
Hengle Teron
Order In Disorder Virtus Crusade Protectorate
56890
|
Posted - 2015.08.24 22:54:07 -
[26] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Hengle Teron wrote:That's a lie.
Even though it says it's the variation of depleted uranium, it's obviously a version of fusion ammo, just like void is version of anti-matter. It's not really a lie GÇö it is just what it is, and it is very specifically not like AM GåÆ Void. Yes, functionally, it's closer to that relationship, but as you point out, it is a variation of DU. It is exactly like the AM -> Void relationship.
Fusion gets the same penalties AM gets, and Hail gets the same penalties Void gets. Also Fusion deals a total of 12 damage (S type) and AM deals 12 damage. Hail deals 14.4 damage, Void deals 14.4 damage. And finally, if Hail was based on DU, it would deal its damage in three types like DU instead of two. |
Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
811
|
Posted - 2015.08.24 23:35:32 -
[27] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Wait.. there is projectile ammo other than RF EMP?!?!?!
Yes. It's called RF phased plasma. Bitches love thermal damage.
Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
25757
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 03:50:55 -
[28] - Quote
Hengle Teron wrote: It is exactly like the AM -> Void relationship.
GǪexcept that DU is nothing like AM, which in turn means the relationship DU GåÆ Hail simply can't follow the same pattern.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Zimmy Zeta
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
59477
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 06:42:26 -
[29] - Quote
Speaking of projectile ammo, am I really the only one who is annoyed by the inconsistencies regarding caliber and ammo size?
125 mm - small 150 mm - small Dual 180 mm - medium 200 mm - small 220 mm - medium 250 mm - small 280 mm - small 425 mm - medium Dual 425 mm - large 650 mm - medium Dual 650 mm - large 720 mm - medium 800 mm - large
I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it.
Yes, I do feel bad about it.
|
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1475
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 07:18:33 -
[30] - Quote
Zimmy Zeta wrote:Speaking of projectile ammo, am I really the only one who is annoyed by the inconsistencies regarding caliber and ammo size?
125 mm - small 150 mm - small Dual 180 mm - medium 200 mm - small 220 mm - medium 250 mm - small 280 mm - small 425 mm - medium Dual 425 mm - large 650 mm - medium Dual 650 mm - large 720 mm - medium 800 mm - large
now that's confusing
@ChainsawPlankto
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |