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Promephius
No.Mercy Triumvirate.
29
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Posted - 2015.08.25 13:50:46 -
[1] - Quote
Feedback. - "on this patch and ones preceeding it that brought about entosis modules."
Although you have made some modifications to the Entosis Module your new sov dynamic is literally killing 00.
Lots of experienced players are getting very disenfranchised and resigned to the fact that these changes are only potentially going to get worse.
With previous sov mechanisms although they favoured the bigger entities they enabled some fairly fun sov/pvp escalations for alliances. Now the new sov mechanic is so boring people simply don't want to get involved in it!
Failure of new sov system: Now big entities have no reason to hit sov of ememies because the system doesn't work. You either stay and look after your own sov or deploy and lose your own sov. Equally the fights that are generates from this new sov system consist of lots of silly frigates running around. If under the new sov one system is properly sieged then you often have 100-200 people sat there spinning whilst you have your frigate/frigates entosising.
New Sov system limits the use of capitals to almost nil: If in the future you are also going to expand this mechanic to strucutures and pretty much limit the use of Capitals to a very niche number of scanarios I can only see your subscribership numbers rapidly decreasing. Personally I will not be subbing any of my 4 accounts moving forwards. I only see the game being pointed in one direction which seems to be focused on being new player friendly and not supporting the vast number of players who have played over 10 years and commited time and money into the game. Equally with dev blog notes suggesting that capital ships are going to be modified to give them more "specific" roles that equally I can only see again reducing the number of uses and scanarios these ships can be used in.
All in all the changes being made to the game although not all bad the soverignty ones are horrible! It was better dare I say it when an alliance had to anchor POS all over the system to take control. This system does nothing to encourage good fights in 00 and to engage a long term loyal player base that is vital for the game.
I would go as far as saying that if some of these changes introduced arnt significantly altered or removed that this game will not survive for a great many more years which would be a shame!
NB: I think the only positive note to make is that the new dynamic that if alliances arent using space I agree it should be somewhat easier to take. However the current system does nothing to generate good content for the player base.
P |
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
430
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Posted - 2015.08.25 14:15:35 -
[2] - Quote
Then come up with a new playstyle?
Old saying HTFU. Adapt or die.
You know what frigates running around mean? Pew pew pew. Get stuff that takes out frigs. Get newbs to do the entosis or run anti frig duty while vets fight it out.
How is it ccp's fault people are to scared to go and shoot at frigs?
If you get attacked while attacking sov, why are you trying to take it? Obviously you are too big already to defend what you have.
Whole reason for change was to make control more dense and seems working as intended. Screw sov and work on attrition. Raiding parties, make the occupiers fall back, then get... Newbs to entosis.
Edit: Change in ship dynamics good. Lowers barrier of entry and increases fleet diversity. For defence, need anti frig. For attack, need anti cruiser ships. Get a pyramid with caps on top. Good thing they are not fleet mainstay. Once again, get new players in. Eventually you have large fleets that are what they were, or much more diverse. |
Leila Meurtrier
Why Am I Not Surprised
1
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Posted - 2015.08.25 14:23:49 -
[3] - Quote
Promephius wrote: With previous sov mechanisms although they favoured the bigger entities they enabled some fairly fun sov/pvp escalations for alliances. Now the new sov mechanic is so boring people simply don't want to get involved in it!
So, holding SOV started to be something that's not a ghost of omnipresent capitals and that's a bad thing?
Promephius wrote: Now big entities have no reason to hit sov of ememies because the system doesn't work. You either stay and look after your own sov or deploy and lose your own sov.
So, instead of making galaxy their little bGÖÑGÖÑGÖÑGÖÑ big entities actually have to turtle their homes, being subjects to losing any pieces where their grip is not that hard?
Promephius wrote:New Sov system limits the use of capitals to almost nil
IIRC, this is a goal for all these changes, no?
Promephius wrote: blah blah limit the use of Capitals I can only see your subscribership numbers rapidly decreasing. Personally I will not be subbing any of my 4 accounts
With all latest changes, it's somewhat clear that old capital usage will be butchered, with average capital harmonically continuing size progression rather than being 24 hour POS candy machine. In fact, it was perfectly clear looooooooooong time ago.
Promephius wrote: This system does nothing to encourage good fights in 00 and to engage a long term loyal player base that is vital for the game.
It promotes harassing the crap out of everyone. In my book, that's what EVE is all about.
Oh, and yes, RIP EVE. 2003-2047
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Promephius
No.Mercy Triumvirate.
29
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Posted - 2015.08.25 14:29:40 -
[4] - Quote
The changes to Jump mechanics and worm holes are enough on their own to allow smaller entities greater leverage without then changing the sov mechanics to a tedius boring system that it now is.
The changes which stop large entities jumping their caps from one side of universe to the other + reduce 00 linking worm holes both great changes. But then introducing a single module to grind sov and the kind of fights that it then brings around is so dull.
I think evidence of this can easly be seen with 00 activity!!! |
Kalen Pavle
Quam Singulari Triumvirate.
71
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Posted - 2015.08.25 14:42:37 -
[5] - Quote
Entosis is the problem here, not the rest of the design.
We've taking sov and made it mining, widely agreed to be the absolute worst most boring part of EVE. |
Leila Meurtrier
Why Am I Not Surprised
1
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Posted - 2015.08.25 14:45:09 -
[6] - Quote
Promephius wrote:But then introducing a single module to grind sov and the kind of fights that it then brings around is so dull.
I think evidence of this can easly be seen with 00 activity!!! It's pretty obvious what CCP wants. They want combatants keeping eyes on their puppet bears and bears that actually bite. WIthout these? System is lost. Unsettled = Free for the taking by smaller entities. The smaller the entity, the more of them you can put on same cubic ly. The more entities, the less chance of them getting along => Big Fozzie dream coming true.
Maybe it will do something with old men ruling the world. |
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
431
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Posted - 2015.08.25 14:45:15 -
[7] - Quote
Promephius wrote:The changes to Jump mechanics and worm holes are enough on their own to allow smaller entities greater leverage without then changing the sov mechanics to a tedius boring system that it now is.
The changes which stop large entities jumping their caps from one side of universe to the other + reduce 00 linking worm holes both great changes. But then introducing a single module to grind sov and the kind of fights that it then brings around is so dull.
I think evidence of this can easly be seen with 00 activity!!!
Is that due to less players or less alts is the question. If they are frig clouds, sounds fun. Jump 200m off and start sniping. Hit and run tactics with dessies. Whelp them ships. If entosis is piles of frigates, load me up? Can buy lots of anti frig ship for cost of an ol hellcat abaddon. Alright, you 100 newbs jump out as bait, we follow and kill.
The thought of a heirarchy without removing the advantages of being a vet gives me a fuzzy feeling. |
Vol Arm'OOO
Bagel and Lox
727
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Posted - 2015.08.25 15:15:04 -
[8] - Quote
Markus Reese wrote:Then come up with a new playstyle?
Old saying HTFU. Adapt or die.
You know what frigates running around mean? Pew pew pew. Get stuff that takes out frigs. Get newbs to do the entosis or run anti frig duty while vets fight it out.
How is it ccp's fault people are to scared to go and shoot at frigs?
If you get attacked while attacking sov, why are you trying to take it? Obviously you are too big already to defend what you have.
Whole reason for change was to make control more dense and seems working as intended. Screw sov and work on attrition. Raiding parties, make the occupiers fall back, then get... Newbs to entosis.
Edit: Change in ship dynamics good. Lowers barrier of entry and increases fleet diversity. For defence, need anti frig. For attack, need anti cruiser ships. Get a pyramid with caps on top. Good thing they are not fleet mainstay. Once again, get new players in. Eventually you have large fleets that are what they were, or much more diverse.
Its not a question of people being afraid of frigs rather its that for many swatting frigs all day is not exciting or rewarding. Flying t1 frigs is like playing poker for match sticks - there is no commitment and nothing at stake. Ofc for the defenders they may lose their sov, but having to swat mosquitos all day long leads to nothing but burn out. In short, if sov holders wanted to be playing fw, they would have signed up to play fw, instead of staking a claim in null.
I don't play, I just fourm warrior.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
11423
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Posted - 2015.08.25 15:25:04 -
[9] - Quote
Platypodes incoming
/o\
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Jenshae Chiroptera
2265
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Posted - 2015.08.25 15:27:09 -
[10] - Quote
- Go back to Dominion SOV.
- Drop carrier and dread damage by 10%
- Heavily nerf super and titan damage
- Remove excess hit points from structures that you no longer need.
- Break a few gates. Condense us into competing more.
- Make a breeding ground for alliances to grow and challenge the current SOV holders.
- Come up with a real SOV system that is not as shallow as this Fozzie SOV.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
There are other ways to fix Null Sec stagnation and Fozzie SOV is the wrong approach.
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Geanos
V I R I I Ineluctable.
30
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Posted - 2015.08.25 15:43:41 -
[11] - Quote
No, new sov is not killing 0.0, just killing the big fights which is intended. Big entities will just have to start FC training programs for small fleets and content will be created. A medium alliance relying on 2 - 3 fc's will no longer work under these new circumstances. Having few fc's does indeed lead to a lot of ship spinning. |
Promephius
No.Mercy Triumvirate.
30
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Posted - 2015.08.25 15:47:06 -
[12] - Quote
Geanos wrote:No, new sov is not killing 0.0, just killing the big fights which is intended. Big entities will just have to start FC training programs for small fleets and content will be created. A medium alliance relying on 2 - 3 fc's will no longer work under these new circumstances. Having few fc's does indeed lead to a lot of ship spinning.
Multiple FC's just make it boring for everyone. As soon as you bring big entosis fleet in lets say 10 fleets all they have to do is bring in 1 Griffin GGGGGGG
Griffin's win eve |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1519
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Posted - 2015.08.25 15:52:30 -
[13] - Quote
Geanos wrote:No, new sov is not killing 0.0, just killing the big fights which is intended. Big entities will just have to start FC training programs for small fleets and content will be created. A medium alliance relying on 2 - 3 fc's will no longer work under these new circumstances. Having few fc's does indeed lead to a lot of ship spinning. You mean they killed the big fights which made EVE famous? Intentionaly? What a great plan!!!11!
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Geanos
V I R I I Ineluctable.
30
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Posted - 2015.08.25 16:05:23 -
[14] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Geanos wrote:No, new sov is not killing 0.0, just killing the big fights which is intended. Big entities will just have to start FC training programs for small fleets and content will be created. A medium alliance relying on 2 - 3 fc's will no longer work under these new circumstances. Having few fc's does indeed lead to a lot of ship spinning. You mean they killed the big fights which made EVE famous? Intentionaly? What a great plan!!!11!
Big fights where not "THE THING" when I started the game. But things always change, learn to deal with it.
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Oliver Delorean
SwEaTy ArMpIT RaIDeRs Mordus Angels
20
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Posted - 2015.08.25 16:16:11 -
[15] - Quote
Kalen Pavle wrote:Entosis is the problem here, not the rest of the design.
We've taking sov and made it mining, widely agreed to be the absolute worst most boring part of EVE.
Entosising station for 4 minutes with single ship is more mining than shooting it with big fleet in order to apply enough dmg to finish it in 45 minutes?
I like the new sov game. It really kives smaller alliances a chance to take sov. It is also quick and easy to accomplish if there is no one to defend it and some interesting fights can take place if someone defends it.
Now people from big alliances come here to whine and cry cuz all their emty 00 space is suddenly being entosised from every corner. Adapt or keep whining. |
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
432
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 16:18:32 -
[16] - Quote
Big fights still exist, but people call it swatting frigs.
Why is swatting frigs not escalating? Why are there killers to the swatters?
Why are there not piles of newbs doing that while blocking and shooting out eachother?
Maybe I live in a happy world hoping that there is crazy ffa pvp to stop entosis instead of press F1? |
Jenshae Chiroptera
2265
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Posted - 2015.08.25 16:21:59 -
[17] - Quote
Oliver Delorean wrote:... Now people from big alliances come here to whine and cry cuz all their emty 00 space is suddenly being entosised from every corner. ... Check my post history, I have criticised Fozzie SOV from a time not long after the first dev blog was released. It was so obviously awful that I am perplexed as to how it was pushed through.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
There are other ways to fix Null Sec stagnation and Fozzie SOV is the wrong approach.
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
432
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 17:30:56 -
[18] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: It was so obviously awful that I am perplexed as to how it was pushed through.
I was away from the forums during the fozzie sov, but I found many people liked the ideas. Mostly those of us who wanted large ships to be sort of the command of a fleet instead of the fleet meta itself. We envisioned denser combat with frontlines with smaller ships being the mainstay, and larger fights having battleships and such supporting specialized roles. The biggest fleets still having main makeup being large ships.
Many people just saw things different. Romanticism I guess? From reading feedback stuff, I still see it as good thing long term in terms of new players and the approaches it can mean. The simple fact at current has many more people in lower cost and cheap ships is a good thing I view and will make for crazy fights as tactics develop.
Depending on what you want out of eve (helping reds or whatever) if it is that big of issue, lets discuss the meta as a gaming community. What is the composition of the typical entosis fleet now? How can a counter entosis do it? Instead of large fleet command, perhaps more free for all? |
Vol Arm'OOO
Bagel and Lox
729
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 17:33:33 -
[19] - Quote
Geanos wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Geanos wrote:No, new sov is not killing 0.0, just killing the big fights which is intended. Big entities will just have to start FC training programs for small fleets and content will be created. A medium alliance relying on 2 - 3 fc's will no longer work under these new circumstances. Having few fc's does indeed lead to a lot of ship spinning. You mean they killed the big fights which made EVE famous? Intentionaly? What a great plan!!!11! Big fights where not "THE THING" when I started the game. But things always change, learn to deal with it.
Well the thing now is declining player count. Guess we got to deal with it.
I don't play, I just fourm warrior.
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Riddik Dielon
DNS Requiem Hams United
0
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Posted - 2015.08.25 17:37:34 -
[20] - Quote
You must be a newer player with crap skills? Like Prom said the new sov changes will kill this game! Lack of content for caps and supers will make the majority of 0.0 players not want to log in and play! look at the daily log in numbers! Speaks wonders dont they?
Markus Reese wrote:Then come up with a new playstyle?
Old saying HTFU. Adapt or die.
You know what frigates running around mean? Pew pew pew. Get stuff that takes out frigs. Get newbs to do the entosis or run anti frig duty while vets fight it out.
How is it ccp's fault people are to scared to go and shoot at frigs?
If you get attacked while attacking sov, why are you trying to take it? Obviously you are too big already to defend what you have.
Whole reason for change was to make control more dense and seems working as intended. Screw sov and work on attrition. Raiding parties, make the occupiers fall back, then get... Newbs to entosis.
Edit: Change in ship dynamics good. Lowers barrier of entry and increases fleet diversity. For defence, need anti frig. For attack, need anti cruiser ships. Get a pyramid with caps on top. Good thing they are not fleet mainstay. Once again, get new players in. Eventually you have large fleets that are what they were, or much more diverse.
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Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
22925
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Posted - 2015.08.25 17:40:52 -
[21] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Platypodes incoming
/o\
CORRECTION: Narwhals. I will now turn this back over to automated control.
>>>Forum STDS has detected sovereignty thread in General Discussion<<<
>>>Narwhal content distribution engine starting............done.<<<
>>>Preparing link..........done.<<<
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7aTCbiD0KM <<<
>>>Narwhal content delivery successful<<<
>>>Returning to active forum scan<<<
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
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Vol Arm'OOO
Bagel and Lox
729
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Posted - 2015.08.25 17:40:58 -
[22] - Quote
Markus Reese wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: It was so obviously awful that I am perplexed as to how it was pushed through.
I was away from the forums during the fozzie sov, but I found many people liked the ideas. Mostly those of us who wanted large ships to be sort of the command of a fleet instead of the fleet meta itself. We envisioned denser combat with frontlines with smaller ships being the mainstay, and larger fights having battleships and such supporting specialized roles. The biggest fleets still having main makeup being large ships. Many people just saw things different. Romanticism I guess? From reading feedback stuff, I still see it as good thing long term in terms of new players and the approaches it can mean. The simple fact at current has many more people in lower cost and cheap ships is a good thing I view and will make for crazy fights as tactics develop. Depending on what you want out of eve (helping reds or whatever) if it is that big of issue, lets discuss the meta as a gaming community. What is the composition of the typical entosis fleet now? How can a counter entosis do it? Instead of large fleet command, perhaps more free for all?
Having more people in cheap ships is not a good thing. In fact it breaks the economy. Players are sitting on huge piles of isk. For instance, if I wanted to fly t1 frigs, I probably have enough isk on hand to do that for years to come. Because of the huge isk piles, there is no incentive for veteran players to engage in isk making activities, i.e. pve. Which means there are even less folk out there in the world doing pve things, which means even less targets. In short, in view of the current state of the game, capital ships (or something like them) are needed to soak up the isk that is out there, to keep the wheels of the game spinning.
I don't play, I just fourm warrior.
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Seven Koskanaiken
FinFleet Northern Coalition.
1628
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 18:59:56 -
[23] - Quote
The new system is an amalgam of everything CSMs, leaders and players petitioned CCP for years to deliver.
It reminds me of that Simpsons episode where Homer's brother let's him design the new car instead of the actual engineers, and it ends up just being a bunch of crazy features stuck together that make no sense. Then bankrupts the company. |
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
437
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Posted - 2015.08.25 19:02:29 -
[24] - Quote
[quote=Riddik Dielon]You must be a newer player with crap skills? Like Prom said the new sov changes will kill this game! Lack of content for caps and supers will make the majority of 0.0 players not want to log in and play! look at the daily log in numbers! Speaks wonders dont they?
[quote=Markus Reese]Then come up with a new playstyle?
I understand full well. Got tons of sp with nil in industries or trading. I got cap ships not move in... Years. Doesnt bother me at all. Is all those docked pilots can do is fly cap? Is the highpoint of pvp siege mode and watching weapons cycle for an hour? Or just miss jump effect. :'(
Cap ships never really gave anything to pvp really aside from big tank buffer and slow. I figured most cap pvpers would love to actually have risk aside from a titan blob. Field your caps and sentry lulz kill all them frigate swarm. Lack of content for caps? Was no content to begin with. Caps only were used on other caps or structures. Now they are again potential centerpieces of a fleet. Caps for me wete tactical. I flew when Ideal for the fight else command ships on grid and logi were my fun of choice. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2298
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 19:03:58 -
[25] - Quote
You cannot kill that which was already dead.
~ Professional Forum Alt -á~
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
7052
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 19:14:43 -
[26] - Quote
In before "Muh rental empire!"
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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Dradis Aulmais
RW Vindicator Connection Phoebe Freeport Republic
1007
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Posted - 2015.08.25 19:18:03 -
[27] - Quote
Since this wine thread is back I offer this narwhal song to appease the isd In hopes they shut down this crap fest.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=anM1N5oN-OM
Dradis Aulmais, Federal Attorney Number 54896
Free The Scope Three
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Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra Gallente Federation
429
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Posted - 2015.08.25 19:22:27 -
[28] - Quote
The only thing worth hoping for is that fozziesov will finally push bittervets into unsubbing and maybe biomassing (then again, always all bark and no bite here) . It is getting seriously tiresome of reading about their pointless whining. There is only a fraction of this lot who are capable of coming with proper arguments about the weaknesses of the new system. The rest is just trash that is overdue being taken out. |
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2693
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 19:26:26 -
[29] - Quote
Markus Reese wrote:Then come up with a new playstyle?
Old saying HTFU. Adapt or die.
And what happens when I choose death?
Summer PSU (source thread here).
2015: 21k
2014: 31k
2013: 37k
2012: 33k
2011: 35k
2010: 37k
2009: 35k
2008: 28k
2007: 24k
2006: 19k
Just something to think on.
Markus Reese wrote:You know what frigates running around mean? Pew pew pew. Get stuff that takes out frigs. I've done the whole frig pew pew thing - I was in GalMil when we took the entire caldari war zone, both for the first time in history, and several weeks later the second time an entire war zone fell. Here's the thing about frig pew pew: it gets stale after a while. Eventually, many players become bored of fighting nothing but low-risk frigates and dessies all day long. Some people love it, sure, but many choose to move on to other things.
Sov used to be the domain of 200+ man cruiser, T3, Capital, BS, and BC fights. I enjoyed many of those fights - those fights which are becoming increasingly rare. Now it's the domain of Ceptors and T3D's.
The problem isn't that I can't catch ceptors, I can with some success using remote sebos and the like. The problem is that hunting trollceptors all day long gets stale, fast. It's tedious low risk combat. If I wanted that, I'd go to fac war - it pays better. Hell, most of the time it isn't even combat - most trollceptors don't shoot back.
There's currently a perverse incentive in place that emphasizes smaller, faster ships in sov. We already have an arena for frigs and dessies - it's called fac war. Why do we need two fac war? And where do the people that enjoyed larger fights with bigger ships go? |
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
439
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 19:36:55 -
[30] - Quote
"cannot catch interceptors..."
Aaah. Now we are getting somewhere. When I joined, frigates were a joke was the discussion and was balances over the years. So this brings up questions. Is it the sov.... Or the ships? Maybe it isnt sov but perhaps some equipment rebalance. Changes to missiles a bit more or perhaps antifrig modules like the RFLML. So cruisers that are fitted for tracking and range over dps. Near frig dps but essentially AA fire. That starts back into the dynamic fleets you mentioned and enjoyed. To be fair, that is,what I liked the best. Cruiser mainstay fleet with battleship and capital core. We gotta start from bottom and you said it. Low options for the anti frig?
Edit: propsal. All Dual style weapons. Inrease precision and tracking to be capable of anti frig duty plus buff to web drones? Maybe we need a micro scram drone/missile. Doesnt disable warp but can mess MWD. |
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