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Anslo
Scope Works
32147
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Posted - 2015.08.27 16:54:26 -
[61] - Quote
Meanwhile, independents are all snug and comfy and happy.
[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
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Rodj Blake
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2209
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Posted - 2015.08.27 17:00:11 -
[62] - Quote
Nameira Vanis-Tor wrote:
5) The 24th IC to abandon sovereignty they hold in any traditional Minmatar Territory in the Metropolis/Heimatar regions. Also for the Empire to cease any further aggression in the warzone. In perpetuity.
I would be happy to see those systems originally settled by Minmatar nations in the hands of the Minmatar, and those systems originally settled by the Empire and its constituent peoples in the hands of the Empire.
Agreed?
Yonis Ardishapur for Emperor
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Anabella Rella
Gradient
2024
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Posted - 2015.08.27 17:02:38 -
[63] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Why should you?
Because we're both member states of CONCORD, that's why. That should be the only reason needed. You can't have it both ways. In one post you cry about how CONCORD has failed and in the next appeal to us because we're both members of the failed institution.
So which is it? Do you believe in CONCORD and the rule of law or not? If so, go to the Inner Circle in emergency session and ask for help. If not, well good luck, I guess.
When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2325
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Posted - 2015.08.27 17:06:00 -
[64] - Quote
It's failed precisely because the other nation governments refuse to provide collective defense. An attack by an external force on any CONCORD signatory should be met with a combined force from every signatory. Help shouldn't have to be requested, or negotiated or bargained for. It should be offered, and provided, without question.
If this is not the case, then there is no point in having CONCORD. International cooperation requires nations to cooperate. But your nations prove time and time again that you have no desire to.
Yonis Ardishapur for Emperor
"Reclaim our Empire"
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Cain Aloga
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
122
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Posted - 2015.08.27 17:07:45 -
[65] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Why should you?
Because we're both member states of CONCORD, that's why. That should be the only reason needed.
I was under the pression thatbyou were more intelligent than this statement portrays. I still belive yiu are, however it seems desperation has begun to cloud your reasoning. You yourself have stated that CONCORD has failed. Many Matari would like nothing more than to see the Empire crumble, and its ruins burned. There is another thread on these forums asking how and when do we interact with our crews, and many of mine have expressed the same, regardless if we burn with you.
"Let them die of their sins" is a statement that has been repeated. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
5488
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Posted - 2015.08.27 17:09:51 -
[66] - Quote
Anslo wrote:Meanwhile, independents are all snug and comfy and happy.
Yah, really? Because being less of a threat just means you're dessert, it doesn't mean you aren't on the menu, suuolo.
"Caldari Prime burns, those left behind are choking on the dust and ash that fills the air, and you demand our surrender? Is this a joke? You have only hardened our resolve. Every drop of blood you have taken from us will be repaid -- with interest."
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Avio Yaken
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
2126
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Posted - 2015.08.27 17:14:15 -
[67] - Quote
Look, im not saying we have ot be friends and this whole thread is basically a WHAT IF scenario
While theres little evidence to support they would attack another nation besides the amarr we should at least prepare for the possibility that they would attack another nation..
If they do attack someone else besides the amarr then i would say its safe to think they are here to wipe us all out and not just the Amarr
At that point i say we put aside our understandable hatred for one second and work together to remove the drifters
THEN we can break the alliance and go back to whatever we are doing
(.___________________________________________.)/
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Anslo
Scope Works
32147
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Posted - 2015.08.27 17:18:46 -
[68] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Anslo wrote:Meanwhile, independents are all snug and comfy and happy. Yah, really? Because being less of a threat just means you're dessert, it doesn't mean you aren't on the menu, suuolo. We already proved we can handle them quite efficiently.
[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
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Avio Yaken
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
2126
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Posted - 2015.08.27 17:20:26 -
[69] - Quote
Anslo wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Anslo wrote:Meanwhile, independents are all snug and comfy and happy. Yah, really? Because being less of a threat just means you're dessert, it doesn't mean you aren't on the menu, suuolo. We already proved we can handle them quite efficiently.
So you are telling me you fought in the recent incursion and actually cleared out a few sites....Then share us your tactics!
(.___________________________________________.)/
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1351
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Posted - 2015.08.27 17:23:44 -
[70] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Why should you?
Because we're both member states of CONCORD, that's why. That should be the only reason needed.
But it won't be. CONCORD is a hollow sham, Lieutenant. You know that as well as I do.
I expect, however, that as soon as our current hostilities are ended, we will be assisting. |
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Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
5784
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Posted - 2015.08.27 17:27:52 -
[71] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:We shouldn't have to ask. Shouldn't you, Samira? A century of grudging peace doesn't magically make up for the Empire's previous actions. I've always suspect that the Empire's policy of painting itself as diplomatic peace-seekers who always honour their treaties and fulfil their oaths and promises was a charade; a charade forced on a nation that, for the first time in its entire history, was confronted with a situation it could not use overwhelming military force to triumph over.
Examine the Empire's history - every single time it has believed it held uncontested military superiority over an independent nation, it has used it to conquer that nation. Examine the Udorians. Examine the Ealurians. Examine the Ni-Kunni. Examine the Minmatar. Apart from the Udorians, who I suppose you could make the argument of being a cultural threat to the Amarr (because, you know, their society allowed more social mobility and didn't strand you for life in the role assigned to you by those who had the power to do so), no society ever provoked you into attacking them - your first response upon meeting them was to attempt to conquer them. The sole exception to this rule were the Khanid, who were already enemies of people you wished to conquer.
The first time the Amarr Empire was ever forced to seriously consider diplomacy as a long-term strategy was upon meeting the Federation, and that was because the Empire immediately recognised the Federation's military was comparable in strength to its own. The Empire recognised that attempting to fight the Federation bore a significant probability of failure, the results of which would be utterly disastrous. Consider then the Caldari, whom upon first discovering the Amarr briefly proposed to enslave. And consider the Jove, whom the Amarr believed to be weak and ripe for conquest - only withdrawing after a disastrous first battle and the Minmatar Rebellion forced them to reconsider.
The Minmatar Rebellion was a resounding success (for the Minmatar), and the Federation's war with its current enemy, the Caldari, chilled to a glacial pace. Faced with the Republic, a nascent nation that had a vast number of perfectly legitimate reasons to seek its demise and the Federation, a huge, well-established nation of comparable military strength that would almost certainly become involved if they attempted to reconquer it, the Amarr were forced, with gritted teeth, to abandon military conquest as a legitimate tactic for the advancement of its agenda and instead consider diplomacy. To its credit, I will admit that it has become very adept at certain diplomatic tactics - usually playing the reformed victim of prejudice while it still holds trillions of unwilling foreign captives in bondage and psychologically abuses them.
But I do not believe that the Empire has changed. I firmly believe that if a state of affairs came about that meant the Empire was no longer opposed by military forces of comparable strength - or at the very least, if the Empire believed this to be the case - they would almost immediately return to their old ways. This is a conveniently untestable hypothesis, as it hasn't yet happened.
What has happened, however, is almost the exact opposite - somehow, the Empire has become the target of a military force which to all appearences holds the power to threaten not only its supremacy but its very existence. For perhaps the first time in its history the Amarr Empire has been forced to contend with the concept of its own mortality. It is forced to consider that this threat may be beyond the power of the Empire alone to defeat.
But does it ask for help, from this hodge-podge alliance of mutually disdainful nations it joined out of neccessity? Does it deign for even one second to humour the possibility that the universe does not, in fact, revolve around Dam-Torsad? No, from this assembly of nations that it only joined because at that point in time it could not subjugate them through force, it demands help, and furthermore it imperiously blusters that it shouldn't even have to demand it, that such help - help, one feels, that would be incredibly scarce were it the Federation or the Republic that the Drifters were besieging - shouldn't even need to be demanded, that it should be implicit.
No, Samira. No, you most certainly have to ask for help. After all the Empire has done, it most certainly owes us that, at least.
Do you know what, though, Samira? Even in spite of all the things that the Empire has done, if it asked for help, I would give it. Forget Tetua, forget Del'Thul, forget Respirox and Toov and Ushra'Khan, if the Empire honestly, openly asked for help, I'd give it. I'd encourage other Federals to give it - heck, I'd petition Admiral Bauvon and the Federal Senate to acknowledge and accept the request for assistance.
If this were the Federation - if this were my people, my home, my way of life - in jeapordy, I would not hestiate. I would beg on bended knee. I would abase myself, before the IGS, before the members of CONCORD, before the nullsec alliances - I would beg them to help. Do you know why? Because my pride matters less to me than my home. I'm not even asking Amarr to do any of that. I'm just asking that for one moment they at least feign having a sense of perspective and do not act as if they are entitled to help simply because they were gracious enough not to try and conquer us last century.
I'm disappointed in you, Samira. I was coming to respect you, and through you, I was slowly the rest of the Empire. Now you've managed to reignite one of my old, nearly dormant prejudices - that the Empire and its people will immediately resort to threats when they don't get what they want.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
5490
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Posted - 2015.08.27 17:31:39 -
[72] - Quote
Anslo wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Anslo wrote:Meanwhile, independents are all snug and comfy and happy. Yah, really? Because being less of a threat just means you're dessert, it doesn't mean you aren't on the menu, suuolo. We already proved we can handle them quite efficiently.
They recently proved that an escorted Titan class vessel can't handle them efficiently. The only two things they have to do to prove themselves a fully existential threat is take down a station and glass a planet. I know that they're capable of the latter, it remains only to see if they can achieve the former.
And then where's your independent ass going to dock up?
"Caldari Prime burns, those left behind are choking on the dust and ash that fills the air, and you demand our surrender? Is this a joke? You have only hardened our resolve. Every drop of blood you have taken from us will be repaid -- with interest."
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Cain Aloga
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
124
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Posted - 2015.08.27 17:35:29 -
[73] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote: Text
This was very well said. The Gallantean reputation for eloquence is not exaggerated. |
Anslo
Scope Works
32151
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Posted - 2015.08.27 17:43:56 -
[74] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Anslo wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Anslo wrote:Meanwhile, independents are all snug and comfy and happy. Yah, really? Because being less of a threat just means you're dessert, it doesn't mean you aren't on the menu, suuolo. We already proved we can handle them quite efficiently. They recently proved that an escorted Titan class vessel can't handle them efficiently. The only two things they have to do to prove themselves a fully existential threat is take down a station and glass a planet. I know that they're capable of the latter, it remains only to see if they can achieve the former. And then where's your independent ass going to dock up? Her Titan took hull amount of damage. She did not activate her hardeners. I don't know what she was doing but she was doing it wrong. Other super pilots are still fairing just fine.
But whatever, keep talking among yourselves. I don't know why I keep posting here. Not worth it anymore.
[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2328
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Posted - 2015.08.27 17:47:10 -
[75] - Quote
You know nothing about our culture or our religion, Ixiris. We do not hold to promises and treaties because it's convenient, we hold to them because we are obligated to do so by God. To lie is to sin. The Deceiver is named such for a reason. Our entire society is governed by oaths of fealty and loyalty.
Yes, we are conquerors. Those of us who believe in honesty have never denied that. That doesn't mean we don't know how to talk, or how to be peaceful. You cite all the races we conquered, but we have also integrated people through diplomacy, such as the khanid.
You say 'acting reformed'. Reformed from what? We are who we are. We make no apologies for who we are. Old ways, new ways, there's no such thing. We deal with the situation according to what the situation demands.
And all of this is irrelevant. An external, alien force is attacking a CONCORD signatory. All of those treaties we signed, now is when they get called in. We paid for, we built, trillions of DED ships for precisely this purpose. CONCORD was made to protect our nations, both from each other and from those outside who would harm us. We can hate each other. We can despise each other's cultures. But when any of us are threatened we must respond as one united whole or there is no point in any of this.
Yonis Ardishapur for Emperor
"Reclaim our Empire"
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Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
5786
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Posted - 2015.08.27 17:53:05 -
[76] - Quote
Would you be so quick to demand CONCORD's attention if it was the Republic that was being attacked, Samira? Would you be rushing to help them with no thought for reward, even if they had not asked for help?
Would you help the Republic even if they did? Would you not demand concessions from them, as concessions have been demanded from you?
It's all very well to be in favour of solidarity when you're the one that needs it.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2328
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Posted - 2015.08.27 17:54:53 -
[77] - Quote
I would help them. I would expect my government to help them. We have obligations. It is our responsibility to meet those obligations.
Yonis Ardishapur for Emperor
"Reclaim our Empire"
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Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
5790
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Posted - 2015.08.27 18:00:00 -
[78] - Quote
If what you say is what you truly feel, rather than simply the response you know is expected of you, then you are one in ten thousand. A million, perhaps. Most are not so strong.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
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Aria Jenneth
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
1514
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Posted - 2015.08.27 18:06:31 -
[79] - Quote
Scherezad wrote:You're one of the best of us, Aria.
That means a whole lot coming from you, of all people, especially, Dr. Scherezad.
In a sense, I really hope you're mistaken. I'm told I'm cold-hearted, and I can see some truth in that. That's not something it seems like "the best of us" should be.
Thanks, though. A lot. |
Skyweir Kinnison
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
59
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Posted - 2015.08.27 18:18:56 -
[80] - Quote
Very well said, citizen Ixiris.
Samira Kernher wrote:CONCORD was made to protect our nations, both from each other and from those outside who would harm us. We can hate each other. We can despise each other's cultures. But when any of us are threatened we must respond as one united whole or there is no point in any of this.
I'm not aware of a mutual defence clause in the CONCORD treaties. Considering we spend a lot of time beating each other to pulp under CONCORD's Emergency Militia War Powers Act, I'd be surprised if there was such a clause. CONCORD is more about policing the activities of independent capsuleers to prevent overt criminality in empire space - at least to my reading.
Even if there were such a mutual assistance clause, diplomatic protocols would require a formal request to activate the clause. Otherwise each government would be constantly dealing with fleets of well-meaning (?!) adventurers invading their space to 'help' at the drop of a crisis. Many who are qualified to help Amarr are also considered enemies right now and would risk attack by your faction forces - should they fly to destruction on the fanciful whim you might actually welcome their help (vapourised though they would be)?
Your Caldari allies haven't flown to your help - quite rightly, as explained by Captain Tuulinen, because even they expect to be asked and make an appropriate decision for their own people. I have no doubt you consider that they should simply do Amarr's bidding - like a slave should anticipate his master's needs. Or perhaps they are also on your list of the wicked prevaricators who will need to be purged later on?
Like my compatriot, I am willing to join the fight should my government come to an agreement with the Empire, even though I despise much of what you people do to others and by helping you, I would be tacitly supporting your practices. That's for my conscience to deal with. I don't expect you to beg, just to get off that towering high horse.
And if your pride comes before the ultimate fall, the three governments left will rapidly come to a practical agreement and stand together, if necessary upon the ashes of your prejudices. And I submit, if three of us so united can't defeat the Drifters, the four empires only grudgingly chained together around a hateful and resentful Amarr would never see victory anyway.
Note to self: Stop arguing with fanatics.
Humanity has won its battle. Liberty now has a country.
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Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
2499
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Posted - 2015.08.27 18:23:17 -
[81] - Quote
:) You're not cold. You're clear. |
Avio Yaken
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
2129
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Posted - 2015.08.27 18:31:05 -
[82] - Quote
Are we actually starting to get along now? Good lets keep that up, making progress
(.___________________________________________.)/
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2333
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Posted - 2015.08.27 18:32:48 -
[83] - Quote
Skyweir Kinnison wrote:I'm not aware of a mutual defence clause in the CONCORD treaties. Considering we spend a lot of time beating each other to pulp under CONCORD's Emergency Militia War Powers Act, I'd be surprised if there was such a clause. CONCORD is more about policing the activities of independent capsuleers to prevent overt criminality in empire space - at least to my reading.
Even ignoring any actual direct treaties, CONCORD's very mandate demands the protection of its member states.
To protect the right of civilizations to grow and prosper; To preserve the surviving sovereignties of the Dark Ages; To serve justice to those immortals who abuse the privilege of everlasting life; To safeguard the mortals of worlds from dangers which originate in space; To prevent empyrean technology from causing the destruction of humanity - CONCORD Mandate
Yonis Ardishapur for Emperor
"Reclaim our Empire"
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Tyrel Toov
Minmatar Confederate Ushra'Khan
587
|
Posted - 2015.08.27 18:34:52 -
[84] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote: Forget Tetua, forget Del'Thul, forget Respirox and Toov and Ushra'Khan.... You can't forget us, it's not nice..... and we are awesome.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
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Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
5792
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Posted - 2015.08.27 18:43:05 -
[85] - Quote
Tyrel Toov wrote:You can't forget us, it's not nice..... and we are awesome. Well you're all telling me to ignore the Empire even if they did ask for help. My conscience won't let me do that.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
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Tyrel Toov
Minmatar Confederate Ushra'Khan
589
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Posted - 2015.08.27 18:51:49 -
[86] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Tyrel Toov wrote:You can't forget us, it's not nice..... and we are awesome. Well you're all telling me to ignore the Empire even if they did ask for help. My conscience won't let me do that. I never said you had to ignore them. I said I was going to ignore them, I also said I'd be willing to consider offering aid if they asked nicely..... I'm not completely heartless.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
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Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
5794
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Posted - 2015.08.27 20:07:05 -
[87] - Quote
In that case, consider yourself retroactively unforgotten.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
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Sinjin Mokk
Royal Khanid Colonial Exploration
617
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Posted - 2015.08.27 20:59:58 -
[88] - Quote
I agree with Lt. Kernher.
(Yes, I actually do, feel free to write that in your SpaceBook)
CONCORD has failed.
She is right in that according to treaty, CONCORD should be doing a LOT more...assuming you believe they should have a military in the first place.
It's taken us three days. Three days to stem the damage of the Drifters in Khanid. Because of the transient and occasionally outlaw nature of the colonies and settlements there, we will never know how many civilian lives were lost, but if you were to count just the crews of the Imperial Navy, that figure would easily be in the millions.
But CONCORD would rather make sure someone's pod up in HiSec doesn't get ganked.
We still have two Sansha incursions going on inside the Federation as I write this, but CONCORD would just rather cordon those systems off and leave it up to capsuleers and locals.
Three days, Khanid stood alone and in three days, I *think* we've managed to take care of the situation. Three days of floating in a zero-g graveyard of Armageddons and Augerors while people sat back in their comfy staterooms doing risk assessments and opining like this was a gravball game because Khanid is too far and here be pirates and Providence is burning and there's a party in Matari and it's just not my problem. And you're right. It wasn't your problem. It was Khanid's. We dealt. The Empire stepped up and followed the treaties they have with us and we delt. CONCORD? Nowhere to be seen. Just an incursion alert and and an estimate of how many goodies you might earn with the Empire.
The time for CONCORD, as it is now, has come and gone.
Dark Amarr: Rumors!
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1355
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Posted - 2015.08.27 21:59:28 -
[89] - Quote
Sinjin Mokk wrote:Three days of floating in a zero-g graveyard of Armageddons and Augerors while people sat back in their comfy staterooms doing risk assessments and opining like this was a gravball game because Khanid is too far and here be pirates and Providence is burning and there's a party in Matari and it's just not my problem.
I do appreciate your frustration, Mr. Mokk. Providence will, at this rate, take us longer than our frankly ridiculously optimistic public estimates - but that's propaganda for you. By our internal estimates... we're actually ahead of our timetable, and adjusting to the new realities of war. It's my sincere hope that we'll be able to render assistance in the near future. That said, we are also fully expecting to be fired upon by the people we'd be assisting, and while I personally will be counseling restraint, I can't guarantee my FC will listen to me.
If we turn up, at least until a working relationship with our Incursion team can be established, my advice is: get out of the way and let the Drifters whittle us down. |
Claudia Osyn
Minmatar Confederate Ushra'Khan
1458
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Posted - 2015.08.27 22:01:56 -
[90] - Quote
Sinjin Mokk wrote:I agree with Lt. Kernher.
(Yes, I actually do, feel free to write that in your SpaceBook)
You know, you two would make a cute couple.......
A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
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