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Garrett Howe
Spectres
12
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Posted - 2015.08.27 05:13:32 -
[1] - Quote
If the problem with logistics is that a large enough wing can simply rep the damage done after each weapon volley, why not just increase the repair amount, module duration, capacitor use, and heat generation such that the duration between cycles is long enough for more volleys to land. For example (although the numbers may need tweaking):
Small Remote Shield Booster II Boost Amount: 48 -> 96 Duration: 2.25 seconds -> 4.5 seconds Capacitor Use: 30 GJ -> 60 GJ
Medium Remote Shield Booster II Boost Amount: 192 -> 384 Duration: 4.5 seconds -> 9 seconds Capacitor Use: 120 GJ -> 240 GJ
Large Remote Shield Booster II Boost Amount: 384 -> 1536 Duration: 4.5 seconds -> 18 seconds Capacitor Use: 280 GJ -> 1120 GJ
Capital Remote Shield Booster I Boost Amount: 1500 -> 12000 Duration: 5 seconds -> 40 seconds Capacitor Use: 1500 GJ -> 12000 GJ
Why this is good: 1. Having more logistics no longer scales linearly unless you coordinate multiple logistics ships to activate their modules in a pattern. 2. Smaller gangs can get higher reps initially to help them survive longer against larger gangs, which will not see the benefits of the changes necessarily unless they are coordinating. 3. Makes capacitor warfare against logistics somewhat easier to pull off since you have a higher threshold below which they cannot activate their modules. Again, helps smaller gangs (who were going to get capped out completely anyways) against larger gangs.
Thoughts? |
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
80
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Posted - 2015.08.27 05:19:41 -
[2] - Quote
Garrett Howe wrote: Why this is good: 1. Having more logistics no longer scales linearly unless you coordinate multiple logistics ships to activate their modules in a pattern. 2. Smaller gangs can get higher reps initially to help them survive longer against larger gangs, which will not see the benefits of the changes necessarily unless they are coordinating. 3. Makes capacitor warfare against logistics somewhat easier to pull off since you have a higher threshold below which they cannot activate their modules. Again, helps smaller gangs (who were going to get capped out completely anyways) against larger gangs.
Thoughts?
- People naturaly react at diffrent times, so the repping already lands pretty spread even when they try to do it at the same time.
- Armor repairs land at end of cycle, longer cycle time = less chance to logi to land reps before target dies
- A logi that is capped out to the point where it cant activate 1 of the modules with your cap cost is already screwed so it makes very little diffrence.
Basicly your "fix" hurt armor logi with next to no impact on shields, rep cycles already land at diffrent times so there is no need to coordinate that. |
Garrett Howe
Spectres
12
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Posted - 2015.08.27 05:29:01 -
[3] - Quote
Haatakan Reppola wrote:Garrett Howe wrote: Why this is good: 1. Having more logistics no longer scales linearly unless you coordinate multiple logistics ships to activate their modules in a pattern. 2. Smaller gangs can get higher reps initially to help them survive longer against larger gangs, which will not see the benefits of the changes necessarily unless they are coordinating. 3. Makes capacitor warfare against logistics somewhat easier to pull off since you have a higher threshold below which they cannot activate their modules. Again, helps smaller gangs (who were going to get capped out completely anyways) against larger gangs.
Thoughts?
- People naturaly react at diffrent times, so the repping already lands pretty spread even when they try to do it at the same time. - Armor repairs land at end of cycle, longer cycle time = less chance to logi to land reps before target dies - A logi that is capped out to the point where it cant activate 1 of the modules with your cap cost is already screwed so it makes very little diffrence. Basicly your "fix" hurt armor logi with next to no impact on shields, rep cycles already land at diffrent times so there is no need to coordinate that. 1. The difference being that, if people do as before and immediately lock the primary and activate reps, even if they are a bit spread out at first, since there will be a larger delay between successive reps, there will be more time for volleys to land e.g. before, using large shield booster, everyone activates their module within the first 4.5 seconds, reps are spread out, but with 18 second cycles, everyone activates reps within the first 4.5 seconds, next 13.5 seconds are repless. 2. Just as before, there is a need to activate logistics before you need it. Armor has more time to respond to being primary due to smaller signature (longer lock times) and having a shield buffer before armor is eaten into. Also, I'm pretty sure armor fits can generally fit a larger buffer, although maybe I am mistaken. 3. Maybe so. |
Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance
617
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Posted - 2015.08.27 06:39:35 -
[4] - Quote
Logi could stand to benefit from having large reppers being harder to fit. Iirc you can make a cap stable osprey that reps 2400 raw per second via 2 large shield boosters.
Which is ridiculous
Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
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Khan Wrenth
Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation
208
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Posted - 2015.08.27 10:48:05 -
[5] - Quote
I was actually thinking about the same thing recently. Although I was going to propose something less drastic, like an increase of duration of 50% to start the discussion. Perhaps pair it with a decrease in cap use, rep amount, and duration of local reppers, to widen the gap between local and remote repping (perhaps around 10% to start the discussion).
And change it so that remote shield reppers (NOT LOCAL REPS) land at end of cycle. That way all remote reps have to time it and hope they land on time and not waste repping power by over-repping the target either themselves or overlapping reps with another logi.
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
412
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Posted - 2015.08.27 10:53:54 -
[6] - Quote
Garrett Howe wrote:If the problem with logistics is that a large enough wing can simply rep the damage done after each weapon volley, why not just increase the repair amount
Cause, screw logic?
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1866
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Posted - 2015.08.27 10:56:34 -
[7] - Quote
Just make them more vulnerable to Ewar, increase their sig (it's stupid) and reduce the number of targets lockable to improve the value of target switching. |
Barrogh Habalu
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
1041
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Posted - 2015.08.27 11:06:10 -
[8] - Quote
Celthric Kanerian wrote:Cause, screw logic? Reading 'till the end is hard.
Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2136
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Posted - 2015.08.27 12:33:05 -
[9] - Quote
What happen to your idea if I stagger my reps to make the much larger rep amount land between each of your volley?
I still get the same rep/s so I can still fully rep him. If I could rep his 10k armor between your volley, I can still do it but it's only a little more important to time my repper so they land between your volley by staggering them. Each of my repper now rep for the amount of 4 (taking larges in example) means each logi pilot only has to have 1 repper land between volley while before it needed all 4.
The only thing your idea affect is cap stability because large cap hit like those put more risk on dipping below the max regen treshold which mean we might need to fit a little bit differently. |
Khan Wrenth
Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation
209
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Posted - 2015.08.27 13:25:55 -
[10] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:What happen to your idea if I stagger my reps to make the much larger rep amount land between each of your volley?
I still get the same rep/s so I can still fully rep him. If I could rep his 10k armor between your volley, I can still do it but it's only a little more important to time my repper so they land between your volley by staggering them. Each of my repper now rep for the amount of 4 (taking larges in example) means each logi pilot only has to have 1 repper land between volley while before it needed all 4.
The only thing your idea affect is cap stability because large cap hit like those put more risk on dipping below the max regen treshold which mean we might need to fit a little bit differently.
Yes, but that requires more focus from the logi pilot, with greater chances of overrepping and wasting reps (for at least two reasons I outlined already) or for DPS to break through between rep lands. Even if you yourself perfectly land reps and it never effects you, others who aren't as focused and experienced will have a harder time managing their rep cycles. That is the goal. To make it a bit harder for logi pilots because in staggering numbers logi can make targets near invulnerable unless you get a high enough alpha in to destroy a target between reps. Changes like these are brought forth with the hope that we can lower that threshold of alpha to take down a massively logi'd target.
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
463
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Posted - 2015.08.27 13:28:50 -
[11] - Quote
All the discussions lately on how to nerf logistics misses some of the most fundamental aspects of EvE.
If it can be used to your advantage it will be, has always been this way and it will always be that way. So in the end why bother with all this minor tweaks crap, lets get straight to the real point. Do we nerf it to the point that it becomes worthless or do we remove it from the game completely because anything short of these two options will not significantly alter the situation.
These calls for changes to logistics also fail to acknowledge a fundamental aspect of war at all levels including internet space ships. A fighting force that is properly balanced and equipped for the situation at hand will ALWAYS be victorious over a force that is not properly balanced or properly equipped. There is only one way for that improperly balanced or improperly equipped force to overcome this fundamental principal of war and that is the element of surprise. Sometimes this can be achieved by using some highly unorthodox tactics or by simply having a dedicated strike force that can be called in to attack a specific target, or group of targets. Just one possible example of this although it is not terribly unusual or creative would be a stealth bomber fleet that is held in reserve and brought in at a key moment specifically to try to eliminate some or all of the other sides logistics. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2663
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Posted - 2015.08.27 14:48:31 -
[12] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Just make them more vulnerable to Ewar (reduce sensor strength, scan res, lock range), increase their sig (it's stupid) and reduce the number of targets lockable to improve the value of target switching.
Rather than reduce number of targets id reduce rep range.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Dr Cedric
Independent Miners Corporation Care Factor
114
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Posted - 2015.08.27 14:58:36 -
[13] - Quote
The problem (in my opinion) isnt the rep range, rep amount, cycle duration or cap cost, its that capacitor can be regenerated indefinitely because of space-magic
If a logistics wing had to turn off their reppers to cap up, the opposing force can take advantage of that and cause some explosions. If a pilot wants to perma-run their logistics modules, they'll need to seriously gimp their mobility, buffer and/or resists, which seems an appropriate trade-off.
Gal/Min T2 Logi can already perma run w/ a smallish local tank and 3 or 4 rep modules going. Lets force Cal/Amarr to do he same thing by getting rid of the capacitor bonus. Maybe replace it with a remote ECCM or ReSeBo or other anti-ewar effect in a similar fashion and see how that works.
My two isk!
Cedric
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2139
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Posted - 2015.08.27 14:58:54 -
[14] - Quote
Khan Wrenth wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:What happen to your idea if I stagger my reps to make the much larger rep amount land between each of your volley?
I still get the same rep/s so I can still fully rep him. If I could rep his 10k armor between your volley, I can still do it but it's only a little more important to time my repper so they land between your volley by staggering them. Each of my repper now rep for the amount of 4 (taking larges in example) means each logi pilot only has to have 1 repper land between volley while before it needed all 4.
The only thing your idea affect is cap stability because large cap hit like those put more risk on dipping below the max regen treshold which mean we might need to fit a little bit differently. Yes, but that requires more focus from the logi pilot, with greater chances of overrepping and wasting reps (for at least two reasons I outlined already) or for DPS to break through between rep lands. Even if you yourself perfectly land reps and it never effects you, others who aren't as focused and experienced will have a harder time managing their rep cycles. That is the goal. To make it a bit harder for logi pilots because in staggering numbers logi can make targets near invulnerable unless you get a high enough alpha in to destroy a target between reps. Changes like these are brought forth with the hope that we can lower that threshold of alpha to take down a massively logi'd target.
Why don't we ask DPS to get better at timing volley instead of asking logi to be better at timing reps? |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2139
|
Posted - 2015.08.27 15:04:36 -
[15] - Quote
Dr Cedric wrote:The problem (in my opinion) isnt the rep range, rep amount, cycle duration or cap cost, its that capacitor can be regenerated indefinitely because of space-magic
If a logistics wing had to turn off their reppers to cap up, the opposing force can take advantage of that and cause some explosions. If a pilot wants to perma-run their logistics modules, they'll need to seriously gimp their mobility, buffer and/or resists, which seems an appropriate trade-off.
Gal/Min T2 Logi can already perma run w/ a smallish local tank and 3 or 4 rep modules going. Lets force Cal/Amarr to do he same thing by getting rid of the capacitor bonus. Maybe replace it with a remote ECCM or ReSeBo or other anti-ewar effect in a similar fashion and see how that works.
My two isk!
70k EHP on a cruiser sig is smallish tank? |
Zimmer Jones
Aliastra Gallente Federation
288
|
Posted - 2015.08.27 15:25:20 -
[16] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5982792#post5982792
I think that's the right link, but gist of the one line is that logi can't rep at 100% while being repped. Cap not included. Logo lose effectiveness when they have to defend their own. Downside is that any ship fitting crap reports can knock out hefty portions of log output. Good side is they'd have to get close or waste fleet space with anti logi logi.
You are content to be content. This is not a jedi mind trick, you're just the game
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2140
|
Posted - 2015.08.27 15:28:45 -
[17] - Quote
Zimmer Jones wrote:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5982792#post5982792
I think that's the right link, but gist of the one line is that logi can't rep at 100% while being repped. Cap not included. Logo lose effectiveness when they have to defend their own. Downside is that any ship fitting crap reports can knock out hefty portions of ligi output. Good side is they'd have to get close or waste fleet space with anti logi logi.
Another tool for the blob to use while the smaller side so damn crippled by large logi group can't because they already don't have enough dude in their fleet? |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
767
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Posted - 2015.08.27 15:34:01 -
[18] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Logi could stand to benefit from having large reppers being harder to fit. Iirc you can make a cap stable osprey that reps 2400 raw per second via 2 large shield boosters.
Which is ridiculous 900 raw on heat with links and 4 large 1 med, cant fit 5 large without full genos and cpu implant, I'm pretty sure, also you have no tank and run out of cap soon.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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Dr Cedric
Independent Miners Corporation Care Factor
114
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Posted - 2015.08.27 16:20:20 -
[19] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Dr Cedric wrote:The problem (in my opinion) isnt the rep range, rep amount, cycle duration or cap cost, its that capacitor can be regenerated indefinitely because of space-magic
If a logistics wing had to turn off their reppers to cap up, the opposing force can take advantage of that and cause some explosions. If a pilot wants to perma-run their logistics modules, they'll need to seriously gimp their mobility, buffer and/or resists, which seems an appropriate trade-off.
Gal/Min T2 Logi can already perma run w/ a smallish local tank and 3 or 4 rep modules going. Lets force Cal/Amarr to do he same thing by getting rid of the capacitor bonus. Maybe replace it with a remote ECCM or ReSeBo or other anti-ewar effect in a similar fashion and see how that works.
My two isk!
70k EHP on a cruiser sig is smallish tank?
Against 150 Ishtars and their 750 Bouncers... yes.
Cedric
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2143
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Posted - 2015.08.27 18:44:56 -
[20] - Quote
Dr Cedric wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Dr Cedric wrote:The problem (in my opinion) isnt the rep range, rep amount, cycle duration or cap cost, its that capacitor can be regenerated indefinitely because of space-magic
If a logistics wing had to turn off their reppers to cap up, the opposing force can take advantage of that and cause some explosions. If a pilot wants to perma-run their logistics modules, they'll need to seriously gimp their mobility, buffer and/or resists, which seems an appropriate trade-off.
Gal/Min T2 Logi can already perma run w/ a smallish local tank and 3 or 4 rep modules going. Lets force Cal/Amarr to do he same thing by getting rid of the capacitor bonus. Maybe replace it with a remote ECCM or ReSeBo or other anti-ewar effect in a similar fashion and see how that works.
My two isk!
70k EHP on a cruiser sig is smallish tank? Against 150 Ishtars and their 750 Bouncers... yes. Not to mention, have you ever tried to make a Cap-stable Basilisk or Guardian that runs 5 reppers without incoming cap support? This is the trade-off I'm talking about. More repair for less tank, or more tank for less repair.
Those are meant to have cap feed. It's the way they are designed from the ground up. |
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2592
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Posted - 2015.08.27 19:20:58 -
[21] - Quote
The problem is that logi is far too strong and needs to be nerfed by at least 50% output. Your solution doesn't hurt big gangs nearly as much as it hurts small groups.
Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom
Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm
The Succubus looks meaner
But the Revenant cleaner
Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
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Dr Cedric
Independent Miners Corporation Care Factor
114
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Posted - 2015.08.27 20:15:51 -
[22] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Dr Cedric wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Dr Cedric wrote:The problem (in my opinion) isnt the rep range, rep amount, cycle duration or cap cost, its that capacitor can be regenerated indefinitely because of space-magic
If a logistics wing had to turn off their reppers to cap up, the opposing force can take advantage of that and cause some explosions. If a pilot wants to perma-run their logistics modules, they'll need to seriously gimp their mobility, buffer and/or resists, which seems an appropriate trade-off.
Gal/Min T2 Logi can already perma run w/ a smallish local tank and 3 or 4 rep modules going. Lets force Cal/Amarr to do he same thing by getting rid of the capacitor bonus. Maybe replace it with a remote ECCM or ReSeBo or other anti-ewar effect in a similar fashion and see how that works.
My two isk!
70k EHP on a cruiser sig is smallish tank? Against 150 Ishtars and their 750 Bouncers... yes. Not to mention, have you ever tried to make a Cap-stable Basilisk or Guardian that runs 5 reppers without incoming cap support? This is the trade-off I'm talking about. More repair for less tank, or more tank for less repair. Those are meant to have cap feed. It's the way they are designed from the ground up.
Correct, which is why I'm suggesting a redesign away from the infinite cap idea to something that is less sustainable. Remove the infinite cap part of the logistics situation, redesign Cal/Amarr hulls to something similar to Gal/Min, and I'm betting we'll start seeing some very cool, very new fleet doctrines. I'm also betting that more people will fly logistics as an option because there will be more options, rather than the mandatory Guardian with 5/1 and buffer.
And then finally...the ship class can be renamed to Electronics Support Cruiser (ESC), which is what these ships should be (not Logistics...which is "the detailed coordination of a complex operation involving many people, facilities, or supplies.")
Boom... knowledge bomb dropped
/me drops mic and walks away
Cedric
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Garrett Howe
Spectres
12
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Posted - 2015.08.27 23:23:01 -
[23] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:The problem is that logi is far too strong and needs to be nerfed by at least 50% output. Your solution doesn't hurt big gangs nearly as much as it hurts small groups. Can you explain your position? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just want to understand why you think I am. |
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