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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
154
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Posted - 2015.09.03 08:17:28 -
[61] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Be patient. Basically this. ... and enjoy your journey, the endless journey, because this is EvE. There is no "endgame" or ultimate setup, you need to redefine your gameplay and leave your comfort zone regularly to not get bored or burn out. I'm having some difficulties to understand the attitude of "can't do this, why playing then...", I never felt the lack of options or things to do during the first 6 months. Everything was new and so much to learn&try and so little time to play. Skillpoints never were a topic in the beginning (it's a bit different now as there are no low level skills left ...), I trained everything a bit and finally started specializing in certain ships I liked and exploration. What I have to admit is that I was "socialized" with the X-series and never played an MMO before EvE.
I find it odd that some people like things to progress at a snails pace.
I'm fairly sure it would be quicker to learn how to play something than actually train to use it.
Lack of options are created by the way the skill queue is setup and the amount of skills, it's also due to restrictions imposed by the player. Like not wanting to mine for instance.
Edit:
Also bearing in mind that the game will seem different depending upon how long your gaming sessions are. This is due to the skill queue being constant regardless how long you play for in a day (forgetting attributes as not looking at that). There's nothing wrong with that but, it is something to bear in mind. |
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1360
|
Posted - 2015.09.03 14:27:46 -
[62] - Quote
Avvy wrote: Edit:
Also bearing in mind that the game will seem different depending upon how long your gaming sessions are. This is due to the skill queue being constant regardless how long you play for in a day (forgetting attributes as not looking at that). There's nothing wrong with that but, it is something to bear in mind.
Right, it certainly feels less restricting if you can continue your session next day or day after next with a bunch of new skills completed than watching the timer all day.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
474
|
Posted - 2015.09.03 14:55:21 -
[63] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:Yeah, if you were aiming for a more engaging gameplay experience than "taking the place of one of the fleet member's Industry alts", then maybe you need to learn to lower your expectations. And with this attitude you are limiting yourself more than the game ever will. The low sec corp my son is in has many 1-3 month old players and they contribute in many ways. Ammo hauling is but one of them. Tackle, scouts, webs / scrams, boosters, extra dps and yes even bait and many more. SP is not what limits new players, creativity and a willingness to do what they can is what limits their play.
Avvy wrote:I find it odd that some people like things to progress at a snails pace.
I'm fairly sure it would be quicker to learn how to play something than actually train to use it. Wondering when if ever this will get through to you and others. We like the skill training the way it is because it ELIMINATES the benefits of being able to spend countless hours grinding skills.
I play Planetside 2 as well since several of my friends like it (and hate EvE) and we enjoy gaming together. We all started PS 2 on the same day and at the exact same time they were all at my house for a game session. Because they are single and can and often do dedicate entire weekends to nothing but playing games their characters have more than triple the experience points and there for better in game items than mine does. You may say this is how it should be and if that is your opinion then you are not meant to play EvE.
Part of the reason CCP set up the skills training they way it is was to eliminate this grind based character skills advantage and it is for this very reason that many of us are resistant to changing it because we have lives away from computer games and we like the fac t that we are not disadvantaged in this game because we have those lives.
And yes CCP is fully aware that by not implementing a grind based skills system and several other things that are common to other games they are limiting their potential player base. And yes they have repeatedly stated over the years that they are comfortable with that situation. They have also stated repeatedly that they would rather stay true to their vision for EvE with a smaller player base than to compromise that vision simply to appeal to a larger player base.
So in the end it all comes back to the same thing. A real time based skills training system is here to stay, if that does not suit your preferences or your playing style, or your idea of what a game should be then you are one of those players that CCP would rather do without. |
Lulu Lunette
Blue Aurochs United Systems of Aridia
71
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Posted - 2015.09.03 14:59:37 -
[64] - Quote
Plex for SP let's go.
@lunettelulu7
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
154
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Posted - 2015.09.03 15:06:36 -
[65] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:Avvy wrote: I find it odd that some people like things to progress at a snails pace.
I'm fairly sure it would be quicker to learn how to play something than actually train to use it.
Wondering when if ever this will get through to you and others. We like the skill training the way it is because it ELIMINATES the benefits of being able to spend countless hours grinding skills. I play Planetside 2 as well since several of my friends like it (and hate EvE) and we enjoy gaming together. We all started PS 2 on the same day and at the exact same time they were all at my house for a game session. Because they are single and can and often do dedicate entire weekends to nothing but playing games their characters have more than triple the experience points and there for better in game items than mine does. You may say this is how it should be and if that is your opinion then you are not meant to play EvE. Part of the reason CCP set up the skills training they way it is was to eliminate this grind based character skills advantage and it is for this very reason that many of us are resistant to changing it because we have lives away from computer games and we like the fac t that we are not disadvantaged in this game because we have those lives. And yes CCP is fully aware that by not implementing a grind based skills system and several other things that are common to other games they are limiting their potential player base. And yes they have repeatedly stated over the years that they are comfortable with that situation. They have also stated repeatedly that they would rather stay true to their vision for EvE with a smaller player base than to compromise that vision simply to appeal to a larger player base. So in the end it all comes back to the same thing. A real time based skills training system is here to stay, if that does not suit your preferences or your playing style, or your idea of what a game should be then you are one of those players that CCP would rather do without.
I'm well aware that some like the skill tree. I actually like the skill tree too, although it's a little slow to start with but CCP is looking at that I believe.
I'm not interested in killing something a few hundred times either, have never liked that kind of progression. |
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
154
|
Posted - 2015.09.03 15:07:24 -
[66] - Quote
Lulu Lunette wrote:Plex for SP let's go.
Don't suggest that, I'd be tempted to buy too many PLEX. |
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1434
|
Posted - 2015.09.03 15:11:43 -
[67] - Quote
Lulu Lunette wrote:Plex for SP let's go.
= death to eve
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
154
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Posted - 2015.09.03 15:16:34 -
[68] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Lulu Lunette wrote:Plex for SP let's go. = death to eve
Ok, I'm not interested in PLEX for sp, although if there was such a thing I might have used it.
But I am interested in why you think it would be death to EVE. |
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1360
|
Posted - 2015.09.03 15:31:35 -
[69] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Lulu Lunette wrote:Plex for SP let's go. = death to eve Ok, I'm not interested in PLEX for sp, although if there was such a thing I might have used it. But I am interested in why you think it would be death to EVE. It's already there, and it's called "character bazaar". If you want to skip the time to skill and have a enough ISK you can just buy a 100M SP char, and start whelping your Marauder or Carrier right away.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
154
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Posted - 2015.09.03 15:35:15 -
[70] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:Avvy wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Lulu Lunette wrote:Plex for SP let's go. = death to eve Ok, I'm not interested in PLEX for sp, although if there was such a thing I might have used it. But I am interested in why you think it would be death to EVE. It's already there, and it's called "character bazaar". If you want to skip the time to skill and have a enough ISK you can just buy a 100M SP char, and start whelping your Marauder or Carrier right away.
Except you can't tailor a character from the character bazaar to exactly your specifications.
Still doesn't answer why it would be the death of EVE though. |
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1360
|
Posted - 2015.09.03 15:41:32 -
[71] - Quote
Avvy wrote: Except you can't tailor a character from the character bazaar to exactly your specifications.
You can with the resculpt feature, but the name and history is preserved, though professional sellers keep their chars as clean as possible.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
154
|
Posted - 2015.09.03 15:45:22 -
[72] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:Avvy wrote: Except you can't tailor a character from the character bazaar to exactly your specifications.
You can with the resculpt feature, but the name and history is preserved, though professional sellers keep their chars as clean as possible.
It still wouldn't feel the same to me. Plus the name is important, in other games if the name gets altered for any reason, I just delete the character. |
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1435
|
Posted - 2015.09.03 15:51:48 -
[73] - Quote
because plex for sp would ruin the plex market, ruin the character bazaar, characters have history and an idea that you have an infinate amount of skills and every character is different, plex for sp will mean focussed characters that have been coined to serve a purpose within an hour of playing the game, plex for sp gives instant maxed characters and that is bad
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
91
|
Posted - 2015.09.03 15:56:23 -
[74] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:I play Planetside 2 as well since several of my friends like it (and hate EvE) and we enjoy gaming together. We all started PS 2 on the same day and at the exact same time they were all at my house for a game session. Because they are single and can and often do dedicate entire weekends to nothing but playing games their characters have more than triple the experience points and there for better in game items than mine does. You may say this is how it should be and if that is your opinion then you are not meant to play EvE. Wait, you have appreciable time spent in PS2 and want to contrast cert gains negatively to SP progression? Are you high?
PS2 has one of the flattest progression systems outside of the original Doom. Almost every review of Infantry gear will put the starter weapons as best for the class. The few options which do appreciably affect your performance are attainable in a single weekend of play - often in only a couple of hours.
And you want to compare that to EVE's multi-month training to master a single ship hull.
Donnachadh wrote:Part of the reason CCP set up the skills training they way it is was to eliminate this grind based character skills advantage and it is for this very reason that many of us are resistant to changing it because we have lives away from computer games and we like the fac t that we are not disadvantaged in this game because we have those lives. They also set it up to be roughly the same time spent as a grinding MMO. Back when WoW first came out I went completely nolife grinding, and hit level cap in ~3 weeks. Certainly not first, but I was something like top 10 for my class. It was a godawful chore, and I regret doing it.
Somebody who approached the game in a more measured pace would match my "achievement" in several months. Getting 'mastery' of a hull in EVE is roughly the same time investment (at least as far as calendar time spent). Fortunately they don't care if you log in or not anymore, now that we've got a decent skill queue system.
The thing is, in the intervening decade most MMOs have realized that having their casual majority spend months getting to whatever arbitrary cap was set for skill progression was silly. Progression times were reduced, and more recently I've done the same 0-80 in Guild Wars 2 within three weeks - just with far, far less actual grinding.
EVE never caught up to that though. The people who support the glacial pace of progression are still comparing their skill progression to the MMOs of old. |
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
154
|
Posted - 2015.09.03 16:04:49 -
[75] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:because plex for sp would ruin the plex market, ruin the character bazaar, characters have history and an idea that you have an infinate amount of skills and every character is different, plex for sp will mean focussed characters that have been coined to serve a purpose within an hour of playing the game, plex for sp gives instant maxed characters and that is bad
Plex market - Not sure it would ruin the market, it would alter it and some of the PLEX being stored would be used up.
Character bazaar - this depends on the cost of PLEX for sp compared with buying a character from the bazaar.
History - Doesn't matter, the history starts when you start playing it (unless from the character bazaar).
Character variations - Ok, on this one I agree, as you could potentially have instant class builds. Although you will get them eventually anyway.
Instance maxed character - could happen but it's unlikely there would be many. You could limit the amount that you could use within a given time period.
But it was interesting to see what you think. |
Caladan Panzureborn
Aliastra Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.09.03 19:53:14 -
[76] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:Donnachadh wrote:I play Planetside 2 as well since several of my friends like it (and hate EvE) and we enjoy gaming together. We all started PS 2 on the same day and at the exact same time they were all at my house for a game session. Because they are single and can and often do dedicate entire weekends to nothing but playing games their characters have more than triple the experience points and there for better in game items than mine does. You may say this is how it should be and if that is your opinion then you are not meant to play EvE. Wait, you have appreciable time spent in PS2 and want to contrast cert gains negatively to SP progression? Are you high? PS2 has one of the flattest progression systems outside of the original Doom. Almost every review of Infantry gear will put the starter weapons as best for the class. The few options which do appreciably affect your performance are attainable in a single weekend of play - often in only a couple of hours. And you want to compare that to EVE's multi-month training to master a single ship hull. Donnachadh wrote:Part of the reason CCP set up the skills training they way it is was to eliminate this grind based character skills advantage and it is for this very reason that many of us are resistant to changing it because we have lives away from computer games and we like the fac t that we are not disadvantaged in this game because we have those lives. They also set it up to be roughly the same time spent as a grinding MMO. Back when WoW first came out I went completely nolife grinding, and hit level cap in ~3 weeks. Certainly not first, but I was something like top 10 for my class. It was a godawful chore, and I regret doing it. Somebody who approached the game in a more measured pace would match my "achievement" in several months. Getting 'mastery' of a hull in EVE is roughly the same time investment (at least as far as calendar time spent). Fortunately they don't care if you log in or not anymore, now that we've got a decent skill queue system. The thing is, in the intervening decade most MMOs have realized that having their casual majority spend months getting to whatever arbitrary cap was set for skill progression was silly. Progression times were reduced, and more recently I've done the same 0-80 in Guild Wars 2 within three weeks - just with far, far less actual grinding. EVE never caught up to that though. The people who support the glacial pace of progression are still comparing their skill progression to the MMOs of old. +1 To adjust to modern standards and new player expectations I'd recommend they reduce the time it takes to train skills by half at least. I say fine, if they can't compromise their vision of the game and won't change the way SP training works just please reduce the amount of time it takes to get skills to V.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
11594
|
Posted - 2015.09.03 19:58:24 -
[77] - Quote
https://youtu.be/IYyOxoN-QS0
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
157
|
Posted - 2015.09.03 20:06:00 -
[78] - Quote
Aerasia wrote: Progression times were reduced, and more recently I've done the same 0-80 in Guild Wars 2 within three weeks - just with far, far less actual grinding.
Done that within a week by just doing quests.
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Zihao
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
31
|
Posted - 2015.09.03 20:39:26 -
[79] - Quote
Aerasia wrote: EVE never caught up to that though. The people who support the glacial pace of progression are still comparing their skill progression to the MMOs of old.
Given the triviality of module items relative to the traditional mmo, it seems reasonable to say you can participate in comparable "end-game," activities faster in EVE with a reasonable time commitment because almost all of them are more team oriented and less dependent on individual skillpoints or modules being at their apex.
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Cidanel Afuran
Chickenhawk.
164
|
Posted - 2015.09.03 21:04:35 -
[80] - Quote
Aerasia wrote: EVE never caught up to that though. The people who support the glacial pace of progression are still comparing their skill progression to the MMOs of old.
EVE is a hobby, not a game.
It's like tinkering with an old car on the weekend more than it's like WoW, Rift or GW2 |
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
93
|
Posted - 2015.09.03 21:29:42 -
[81] - Quote
Caladan Panzureborn wrote:+1 To adjust to modern standards and new player expectations I'd recommend they reduce the time it takes to train skills by half I've frequently said to just outright remove them. SP progression is a game mechanic meant for doing two things:
- Allowing players to learn to master skills one at a time, pacing each new ability out to help prevent them from drowning in complexity.
- Creating a power curve in content, where a player can feel more powerful while encountering ever more challenging content.
EVE doesn't actually have either of those mechanics though.
Even the people talking about EWAR/Suicide Tackle/Frigate Logi/etc for newbros won't go to the extent of suggesting your ship should only be half fit. A new players needs to understand a lot of concepts up front, and there are very few things to discover (insofar as ship fittings/mechanics go) once you've got your first combat frigate built.
There is also very little in the way of power curve. Mission running provides the closest to that sort of "theme park" experience. Everything else is against other players. You're either engineering an encounter where your victim has no chance, or being subjected to n+10 conflict yourself.
Which isn't to say either of those things are wrong, or bad. I'm on board that they are part of the charm of EVE. But it does mean that the arbitrary time wall of SP progression is working in service of game mechanics that don't exist.
Zihao wrote:Given the triviality of module items relative to the traditional mmo, it seems reasonable to say you can participate in comparable "end-game," activities faster in EVE with a reasonable time commitment because almost all of them are more team oriented and less dependent on individual skillpoints or modules being at their apex. That participation is only available because of the "n+10" mechanic inherent in an open world game. There is a reason that the Alliance Tournament has to restrict modules to T2 instead of letting the richest team bring in the most blinged out fits.
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Milleonia Brundor
Borkstar Laboratories
0
|
Posted - 2015.09.03 21:56:19 -
[82] - Quote
I can't help but feel like this entire thread is a troll. |
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
158
|
Posted - 2015.09.03 22:01:40 -
[83] - Quote
Milleonia Brundor wrote:I can't help but feel like this entire thread is a troll.
I don't share your view. I'd certainly say if I thought it was. |
Zihao
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
33
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 00:30:13 -
[84] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:That participation is only available because of the "n+10" mechanic inherent in an open world game.
But that's the point in and of itself. It's an open-ended single-shard game where individual skillpoints matter very little in the grand scheme of things. |
Caligula Gaius Claudian
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 01:02:57 -
[85] - Quote
You've bought a ship you can't fly and now moaning about it? Silly kid. You want pvp without enough isk to cover a single loss? Two weeks in Eve is nothing. Yoy could simply keep continue mining and earn iskies while the training is runnung.
It is wierd to read such a tears, have you even thought to learn about the game before you jump into? I mean you could easily invest money and buy a well trained toon from char bazar but i predict that next thing which you would do is start moaning how bad the game is, a lot of inconsistence, gankers arround and yada-yada-yada |
Avaelica Kuershin
Paper Cats
229
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 01:48:38 -
[86] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:They also set it up to be roughly the same time spent as a grinding MMO. Back when WoW first came out I went completely nolife grinding, and hit level cap in ~3 weeks. Certainly not first, but I was something like top 10 for my class. It was a godawful chore, and I regret doing it.
Somebody who approached the game in a more measured pace would match my "achievement" in several months. Getting 'mastery' of a hull in EVE is roughly the same time investment (at least as far as calendar time spent). Fortunately they don't care if you log in or not anymore, now that we've got a decent skill queue system.
The thing is, in the intervening decade most MMOs have realized that having their casual majority spend months getting to whatever arbitrary cap was set for skill progression was silly. Progression times were reduced, and more recently I've done the same 0-80 in Guild Wars 2 within three weeks - just with far, far less actual grinding.
EVE never caught up to that though. The people who support the glacial pace of progression are still comparing their skill progression to the MMOs of old.
I'm late to MMOs, started EVE in 2012 for a month, resumed in Sep 2013 and in the time in between had also started playing WoW. I took my time, finding the journey interesting, but found the grind really started at level cap and the fun was only really there playing with guildies and chatting on mumble or vent.
I'm enjoying taking it slow(ish) in EVE, just looking forward to being able to get a new computer sometime so I don't get lagged out in fights. |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
94
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 04:38:52 -
[87] - Quote
Avaelica Kuershin wrote:I'm late to MMOs, started EVE in 2012 for a month, resumed in Sep 2013 and in the time in between had also started playing WoW. Yeah, you definitely skipped the dark times of WoW leveling. If I recall, they made a pretty big effort to enhance the leveling experience during Cataclysm. I wouldn't be able to say much on that though, I had long since stopped playing.
Guild Wars committed the same sin of having their 'end game' be perpetual gear grinding, but at least their leveling was enjoyable enough that I ended up doing it something like 4 times.
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Caladan Panzureborn
Aliastra Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 05:11:16 -
[88] - Quote
Milleonia Brundor wrote:I can't help but feel like this entire thread is a troll.
I can assure you it's not. I mention in the OP that I was complaining and venting about my frustration in the game as a new player and that is what it was. If i was really trolling I hope i'd come up with a more subtle and creative way to do it. Some people have been kind enough to indulge me and engage in genuine discussion. Pretty cool. On another note, I'm trying to ignore my sp timers and do what sounds fun other than missions so I tried doing some low sec wreck salvaging for T2 modules. Actually had some fun and an exciting time. Got blown up and podded, interacted with a couple players, learned a couple lessons and came back for more. In the end of my little salvaging adventure I came out with about 6 million isk worth of modules which felt like a big haul for me though I know it's not much in the grand scale of things.
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
160
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 08:13:44 -
[89] - Quote
Avaelica Kuershin wrote:Aerasia wrote:They also set it up to be roughly the same time spent as a grinding MMO. Back when WoW first came out I went completely nolife grinding, and hit level cap in ~3 weeks. Certainly not first, but I was something like top 10 for my class. It was a godawful chore, and I regret doing it.
Somebody who approached the game in a more measured pace would match my "achievement" in several months. Getting 'mastery' of a hull in EVE is roughly the same time investment (at least as far as calendar time spent). Fortunately they don't care if you log in or not anymore, now that we've got a decent skill queue system.
The thing is, in the intervening decade most MMOs have realized that having their casual majority spend months getting to whatever arbitrary cap was set for skill progression was silly. Progression times were reduced, and more recently I've done the same 0-80 in Guild Wars 2 within three weeks - just with far, far less actual grinding.
EVE never caught up to that though. The people who support the glacial pace of progression are still comparing their skill progression to the MMOs of old. I'm late to MMOs, started EVE in 2012 for a month, resumed in Sep 2013 and in the time in between had also started playing WoW. I took my time, finding the journey interesting, but found the grind really started at level cap and the fun was only really there playing with guildies and chatting on mumble or vent. I'm enjoying taking it slow(ish) in EVE, just looking forward to being able to get a new computer sometime so I don't get lagged out in fights.
WoW's journey was completely ruined by then, world content is far too easy there. |
Pro XL
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 12:59:07 -
[90] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:Caladan Panzureborn wrote:It feels like everything I want to do is days and weeks away and I'm just really frustrated with it and am on the fence about continuing to sub and play this game. It gets better after the first year or two. I hope.
Truth. |
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