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Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
1405
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Posted - 2015.09.08 20:26:21 -
[151] - Quote
Nobody said you don't need SP.
You just don't need the same SP as a 10 year vet to beat him
this game is about strategy, not twitch reactions in a dogfight.
I guarantee a noob in a counter ship/fit to someone with 100m sp will win regardless of how many hundreds of millions they sunk into it.
Plus we have examples of terrible attempts at pay2win quite often, someone buying all purple and blue and a character to boot and losing it in the most hilarious ways |
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
11678
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Posted - 2015.09.08 20:40:05 -
[152] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:Nobody said you don't need SP.
You just don't need the same SP as a 10 year vet to beat him
this game is about strategy, not twitch reactions in a dogfight.
I guarantee a noob in a counter ship/fit to someone with 100m sp will win regardless of how many hundreds of millions they sunk into it.
Plus we have examples of terrible attempts at pay2win quite often, someone buying all purple and blue and a character to boot and losing it in the most hilarious ways Bingo, please refer to the link in my last post for a ridiculous example of this.
Better the Devil you know.
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
95
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Posted - 2015.09.08 22:30:13 -
[153] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:Nobody said you don't need SP. Well,
Earlier in this thread wrote: Bellatrix Invicta You're combat effective from day one,
Sitting Bull Lakota If you've got prop jamming trained to I you can be deadly in pvp.
ergherhdfgh So I have a brand new Minmatar character with 55K skill points.
Donnachadh SP is not what limits new players, creativity and a willingness to do what they can is what limits their play.
Zihao It's an open-ended single-shard game where individual skillpoints matter very little in the grand scheme of things.
except for those people who did.
But to be fair, just as many people said "Weeks to train? Ha! I've been training for years, HTFU and just go do something else for a while."
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
767
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Posted - 2015.09.08 22:59:09 -
[154] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:ergherhdfgh wrote:The min/max, "must be level capped fully decked out in best in slot gear", can't play the game until my stats are perfect mentality has no place in this game. Well, other than PVP. I know I link this all the time but it completely disproves what you are claiming. If you don't want to watch the whole video I will summarize. It is an experienced PvP vet on a trial account alt running around in a rifter killing much older toons in much more expensive ships. He is at the oldest during filming 17 days old. The ship is meta 3 fit.
So he's about 2 weeks old T1 fit in a T1 standard frigate and pwning. Sometimes taking on 2 and 3 T2 ships at once.
In eve everything has it's counter. PvP in Eve is not about having more skill points or a more expensive ship or a more expensive fit. It is about knowing the ships and the match ups and knowing what you can kill and what can kill you. It's not about having a better ship or a better fit it's about having the right ship or the right fit.
You can continue to keep blaming your lack of skill and knowledge on your skill points but the above linked video just flat proves you wrong.
Aerasia wrote: You can certainly participate in PvP with a two week old character. In the same way you could participate in the NFL. The difference is, I don't blame people for aiming a little higher than participation.
If you are waiting until you have the skill points to win before you PvP you'll never win. Being good at PvP in Eve requires experience and lots of it. If you start PvPing right away by the time that you get experienced i.e. good you'll have more than enough skill points to fly and fit what you need to win.
Is it true that if you had 2 identically skilled pilots flying the same ship that the one with the more skill points and / or more expensive modules would more likely win? Yes that is likely true however that is not how PvP works in Eve. What I and other pilots have been trying to tell you is that your perspective here is completely valid in a game like WoW or Battlefield where you have highly balanced and highly structured PvP. That combat style just does not exist in Eve with the one exception being the Alliance Tournament.
Aerasia wrote: But a "good pvp'er" never has to decide "I can't handle this fight because I'm not skilled/fit enough"?
That doesn't happen in Eve again Johnny was talking about counters and not having to decide based on skill points. Knowing which ships you can kill and which you can't based on your ships strong and weak points.
Aerasia wrote:That would be the one he linked to. Ironic, that he was using what I can only imagine was a focus trained AF toon If you are a PvP type of person and that's all that you want to do and you want to be good at it then there is no reason for you to train into anything else.
Yes if you are a more causual player and want to try all the various aspects of Eve then it will take a bit longer to train everything. Eve is after all about having to make decisions and deal with the consequences. But yes if you want to be very good at anything you will need to focus on that one thing and if you spread your self about you will be less good at more things. This is just a fact of life that is true both in and out of game.
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Zihao
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
53
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Posted - 2015.09.08 23:08:45 -
[155] - Quote
Very little != Zero |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
767
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Posted - 2015.09.08 23:14:48 -
[156] - Quote
Aerasia wrote: Maybe the one I find the most aggravating is portraying the newbie roles as something desirable. Those roles which, to be fair, need to be done - but nobody wants to do. So you get the newbro to Logi/EWAR/Suicide Tackle, because they don't really have any choice in the matter. It's all they've got SP for.
I can not comment on what other people find desirable or not.
What I can say is that these roles that you are calling "newbie roles" are not such because that is all that their skill points will allow or anything like that. It's also not something thrust upon them in most cases.
New players often whine about not wanting to be F1 monkeys. Also that fact that they have very limited understanding about how to actually pilot a ship in combat, limits to a certain extent what they can do without feeling overwhelmed. Logi and Ewar ships have much longer range than the typical brawling ship and there for are much easier to "pilot" because you can sit further back and be less focused on what your ship is doing in relation to other's. That's not to say those roles are easier just that your focus is less on piloting your own ship and more on what is going on on grid as a whole. The pulled back viewpoint can also reduce the overwhelmed feeling new players often have.
Logi and Ewar are no less important and arguably it would be better for the fleet to have your more experienced pilots flying those roles. But again if you want to keep a new pilot from feeling overwhelmed then let him fly something that he can sit back further. Also something like logi or Ewar is more clear to see your affect and feel like you are contributing.
Tackle on the other hand I don't understand why new players keep calling that a newbie role. The more experienced players keep telling me that your tackle are your scouts and in most cases you want them to be the best most experienced pilots in fleet. From what I've been told it's definitely not a newbie role. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
767
|
Posted - 2015.09.08 23:30:11 -
[157] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:
'ergherhdfgh So I have a brand new Minmatar character with 55K skill points.'
except for those people who did.
But to be fair, just as many people said "Weeks to train? Ha! I've been training for years, HTFU and just go do something else for a while."
You totally pulled that quote completely out of context. I never once said that you don't need skill points or even hinted that they are totally useless. What I did say was that after the first couple weeks they don't hold you back and for the first couple weeks you are learning the game anyway.
I also said that your skill points don't hold you back from doing anything or participating in anything or having fun. I also said that they are far from the most important thing and in the vast majority of cases not what determines the winner of any engagement.
I said skill points were not everything. I never said that they were nothing.
You however have tried to make is seem like without very high skill points you can't win at PvP which is just not true and you also tried to make it seem as if the player with higher skill points and / or more expensive modules will always win which again is provably wrong.
Watch the eveiseasy video that I linked and then go watch some of the Rooks and Kings videos. You will see people using game knowledge and a superior strategy to win up against much large numbers.
I challenge you to watch the 17 day old minmatar character in a meta 3 fit rifter go up against 3 T2 frigates and still get a kill and then try and tell me how skill points and all T2 is required to be effective and win.
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
95
|
Posted - 2015.09.08 23:58:31 -
[158] - Quote
ergherhdfgh wrote:What I can say is that these roles that you are calling "newbie roles" are not such because that is all that their skill points will allow or anything like that. Low SP is exactly why newbies get thrust into those roles.
Tackle doesn't care about your SP totals. Pointed is pointed - end of story. DPS on the other hand is very skill intensive. Easily half the DPS available to your hull is unlocked through SP. Logi and Ewar are also quick to get up to effectiveness. Those modules don't require anywhere near as much support SP, and are often a binary on/off effect regardless.
I'm also completely aware of suitonia, and his hilarious video. I'm not won over on the idea of low SP PvP by the idea my combat frigate is capable of killing anti-tanked Interceptors and Stealth Bombers. He got those kills fairly, but showing me that at 17 days old I'm going to be counting on my targets to make grave errors in judgement, and even then I'll barely be able to kill ships that I'm flying the hard counter to isn't making a great case. |
Zihao
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
54
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 01:44:28 -
[159] - Quote
William Shakespeare, Measure for Measure wrote:Our doubts are traitors, and make us lose the good we oft might win, by fearing to attempt. |
Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
1409
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 11:32:40 -
[160] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:Nobody said you don't need SP. Well, Earlier in this thread wrote: Bellatrix Invicta You're combat effective from day one,
Sitting Bull Lakota If you've got prop jamming trained to I you can be deadly in pvp.
ergherhdfgh So I have a brand new Minmatar character with 55K skill points.
Donnachadh SP is not what limits new players, creativity and a willingness to do what they can is what limits their play.
Zihao It's an open-ended single-shard game where individual skillpoints matter very little in the grand scheme of things.
except for those people who did. But to be fair, just as many people said "Weeks to train? Ha! I've been training for years, HTFU and just go do something else for a while."
Sorry, my understanding of the English language may not be perfect, however I still do not see anywhere in these quotes where they have specifically stated that you DO NOT NEED SP to be effective in pvp.
I also believe you understand this to be the case as well, however to attempt to bolster your incredibly weak argument, you are twisting these words to make it seem as you have a point.
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Azda Ja
Green Skull LLC
4342
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Posted - 2015.09.09 12:02:51 -
[161] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:ergherhdfgh wrote:What I can say is that these roles that you are calling "newbie roles" are not such because that is all that their skill points will allow or anything like that. Low SP is exactly why newbies get thrust into those roles. No, it's one of the reasons. It's more beneficial for a new player because, as erg mentioned, you get a far wider view of the battlefield and don't have quite the same pressure to stay alive (usually) as being in the thick of it with **** flying in and around your head, micromanaging cap boosters, transversal, webs, scrams and points, local tank or calling for logi reps, not approaching bad targets, communicating actually useful and not silly info to the FC etc etc.. All of this while keeping an eye on your location in relation to the fleet, and watching D-Scan. It's far easier to spot danger from 100km away than 500m away.
Again, EWAR isn't easy, and demands mastery as well, it is however a tad more accessible, but above all, more beneficial when starting out, on top of being a pivotal role in many, if not most engagements. I don't understand this obsession with needing to be in a DPS ship to feel like you're PvPing. Or even feeling like you need to be able to compete 1v1 mano a mano, Thorax vs Thorax on the undock at the crack of dawn, which, without experience anyway, you're going to lose unless your opponent is a derp.
SP is not useless by any stretch of the imagination. I just can't stand people telling newbies they can't compete without it, because it is demonstrably false. SP helps, but brains help more.
Because sometimes you die. And sometimes we are why. GSLLC is Recruiting.
Grrr I tell you. Grrr.
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
176
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Posted - 2015.09.09 13:28:05 -
[162] - Quote
Azda Ja wrote:
I don't understand this obsession with needing to be in a DPS ship to feel like you're PvPing.
Think it depends on a persons preferred style.
A lot of players that come here will have played other MMOs and as such will have already established what their preference is.
My preferred role is that of the rogue style, it's the one that seems more natural to me.
Only problem is I've still not found where to attach the daggers to my ship.
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1478
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Posted - 2015.09.09 13:55:45 -
[163] - Quote
maulus is such a lazy ship, i love it even when i can fly everything thats relevant, nothing better than kicking back and damping all the things
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Azda Ja
Green Skull LLC
4342
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Posted - 2015.09.09 15:02:47 -
[164] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Only problem is I've still not found where to attach the daggers to my ship. To your tongue, if you're using daggers, things have gone incredibly wrong for your ship, and you only have a sharp tongue left to defend yourself with.
More seriously though, you speak of preferences, preferred roles: how is a newbie to EVE going to determine what their preferred role is based on other MMOs? Because saying 'I like rogue things' (just using this as an example, nothing personal) isn't really going to make any kind of play style or training path more apparent. Thematically I guess, a Stealth Bomber would count as a 'rogue' but when it comes to the style of play, it is completely different, alien even. In any MMO I've played that had a Rogue, stealth was completely meaningless and was just another flavor of 'nuke the mob while the tank tanks and the healer heals'. At most, it's 'get 15% extra dps if the target's back is turned'.
In EVE, stealth is a BIG deal, takes shape in many different forms, and goes beyond mere ship choice. The parallels one can draw from other MMOs, thematically, and mechanically, are very superficial, and, quite frankly, not helpful.
Anyway not to ramble, but my point is that it's a mistake to take one's play style preferences from other games into EVE. I love PvP in EVE; I absolutely cannot stand PvP in other online games. As a rule, I think people shouldn't be prisoner to their past preferences.
Because sometimes you die. And sometimes we are why. GSLLC is Recruiting.
Grrr I tell you. Grrr.
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Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
1415
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 21:45:23 -
[165] - Quote
in other games there's 2 things u can do:
dps or heal
Everything else is just a sideshow, whereas in EVE the debuffing and also buffing of your fleet can easily be the difference between win and loss.
Combine this with the hundreds of variations of "class" (aka hulls and fits) it presents an almost unlimited pvp spectrum. Something other games will never achieve.
I remember playing arena in WoW and after a certain point it just felt like you were doing the same thing over an over, even if it was different people you met. |
Caladan Panzureborn
Aliastra Gallente Federation
8
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Posted - 2015.09.09 22:36:13 -
[166] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:in other games there's 2 things u can do:
dps or heal
Everything else is just a sideshow, whereas in EVE the debuffing and also buffing of your fleet can easily be the difference between win and loss.
Combine this with the hundreds of variations of "class" (aka hulls and fits) it presents an almost unlimited pvp spectrum. Something other games will never achieve.
I remember playing arena in WoW and after a certain point it just felt like you were doing the same thing over an over, even if it was different people you met.
EVE player: "Eve is unique and special". New EVE player that has played many other MMOs and PvP'd in them: "Erm, actually not so much". Sorry to keep doing this but it's kinda driving me nuts to keep reading about how unique and special EVE is when the information given as an example is completely wrong. Buffing and de-buffing are important aspects of PvP in other games too and could absolutely mean the difference between a win or loss as well. Two that come to mind and I have personal experience with are Star Trek online and SWTOR. Both have it in their PvP and it's super important to winning. Not just a sideshow as you put it. Also, crowd control. It's a thing. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
771
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 23:00:43 -
[167] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:ergherhdfgh wrote:What I can say is that these roles that you are calling "newbie roles" are not such because that is all that their skill points will allow or anything like that. Low SP is exactly why newbies get thrust into those roles. Tackle doesn't care about your SP totals. Pointed is pointed - end of story. DPS on the other hand is very skill intensive. Easily half the DPS available to your hull is unlocked through SP. Logi and Ewar are also quick to get up to effectiveness. Those modules don't require anywhere near as much support SP, and are often a binary on/off effect regardless. I'm also completely aware of suitonia, and his hilarious video. I'm not won over on the idea of low SP PvP by the idea my combat frigate is capable of killing anti-tanked Interceptors and Stealth Bombers. He got those kills fairly, but showing me that at 17 days old I'm going to be counting on my targets to make grave errors in judgement, and even then I'll barely be able to kill ships that I'm flying the hard counter to isn't making a great case. I think you need to reread your own post here because you are proving my point while claiming the opposite.
You are correct that tackled is tackled. Skill points do affect things like your speed and HP and stuff but you are correct tackled is tackled and your skill points or lack there of do not change that fact. However knowing how to tackle and who to tackle and when to tackle and being able to pilot your ship in such a manner that you maintain the point while the fleet shows up that's all skill. Not skill POINTS but player skill.
Many people confuse actual applied dps with paper dps. Your EFT numbers don't mean squat if you can't apply the dps and a good pilot will know how to pilot his ship in such a manner that he is making the most of his damage profile while making the least of his opponents. If you think paper dps is everything get in a blaster boat and go up against someone in an autocannon frig with falloff bonus. You can even force him to gimp his dps in some way or the other it doesn't matter because if he can control range your are going to die regardless of the fact that EFT says you can do twice the dps.
As far as Ewar goes knowing who to use Ewar on and when to use it and how to draw people away from the pack to help divide and conquer is all player skill. So three times in your first paragraph you help me prove that player skill is far more important than skill points.
As far as the suitonia videos it shows how you are missing the point. In Eve you are always counting on your opponent to make grave judgement errors. Most Eve players won't engage in a fight that they don't think that they can win. So you are either counting on them to make some situational awarness judgement error and deliver the surprise but sects or you are trying to fool them into thinking they can win when you have something up your sleeve.
But no I'm not saying that at 17 days old you will be counting on your opponent to make grave errors. What I am saying is that regardless of how old or how many skill points the characters have most fights will come down to which pilot makes less grave errors. Suitonia did not win those fights because he had better "gear" or more skill points. He won those fights because he was a better pilot plain and simple. You just are not going to do anywhere even close to as good as him even if you borrowed someone else's 10 year old character. He is just more skilled than either you or I and clearly on a 2 week old alt I'm not talking skill points but player skill. |
Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
1417
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 23:28:28 -
[168] - Quote
Caladan Panzureborn wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:in other games there's 2 things u can do:
dps or heal
Everything else is just a sideshow, whereas in EVE the debuffing and also buffing of your fleet can easily be the difference between win and loss.
Combine this with the hundreds of variations of "class" (aka hulls and fits) it presents an almost unlimited pvp spectrum. Something other games will never achieve.
I remember playing arena in WoW and after a certain point it just felt like you were doing the same thing over an over, even if it was different people you met. EVE player: "Eve is unique and special". New EVE player that has played many other MMOs and PvP'd in them: "Erm, actually not so much". Sorry to keep doing this but it's kinda driving me nuts to keep reading about how unique and special EVE is when the information given as an example is completely wrong. Buffing and de-buffing are important aspects of PvP in other games too and could absolutely mean the difference between a win or loss as well. Two that come to mind and I have personal experience with are Star Trek online and SWTOR. Both have it in their PvP and it's super important to winning. Not just a sideshow as you put it. Also, crowd control. It's a thing.
Where in another mmo is there a way to completely cripple a target using debuffs so they literally cannot do anything?
I've played swtor, these debuffs you're takling about are literally either to enable other damaging/defensive abilities or they last such a short time they are considered crowd control.
crowd control in this game is almost what ewar is, however it's very temporary and not as strategic as ewar is. |
MTB Fritz Pollard
We will bock you
0
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Posted - 2015.09.14 14:37:19 -
[169] - Quote
the worst thing IMO is the carrot being other players showing and demonstrating you things you cannot do yet (be it flying ships, using certain modules, solo higher level missions or succeed at activities you suck in at). At least for me, thats hard to overcome when you want to be able to do what others do in front of you.
I am 2 months old in EVE now and the first month was HELL, I was hoping it gets better once I subscribe but of course after you get rid of the "this skill cannot be trained by trial accounts" stuff the game becomes deeper and more complex. I also am at the point where some of the much needed skill updates take me 10-12 days which means I m stuck at what i ca do NOW before I can even attempt to do new stuff.
With time comes acceptance tho. Talking to other people helps. You get an impression of the term "time" and how much you ganne need. Realizing there are no shortcuts for anybody and everybody had to go through what you go through now makes it easier to handle.
I pretty much ran into a wall at lv 3 missions...been doing them for a (felt) eternity now without being able to "progress" but you know.....doing the same stuff with ME changing (because I get skill ups) also makes me realize how actually CRITICAL skills are...not necessarily the ship and equipment. My ship and gear didnt change.....my skills did and of course my strategies and the difference is massive.
So EVE provides you with the time you need to adjust yourself to everything in the game. I find it to be an elegant system :) |
Zihao
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
69
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Posted - 2015.09.14 15:01:15 -
[170] - Quote
MTB Fritz Pollard wrote:skill updates take me 10-12 days which means I m stuck at what i ca do NOW before I can even attempt to do new stuff.
What the heck are you training? I've got a bit less than two months under my belt and the longest skill in my queue is about 3.5 days with no implants.
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Caladan Panzureborn
Aliastra Gallente Federation
8
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Posted - 2015.09.14 19:11:28 -
[171] - Quote
Zihao wrote:MTB Fritz Pollard wrote:skill updates take me 10-12 days which means I m stuck at what i ca do NOW before I can even attempt to do new stuff. What the heck are you training? I've got a bit less than two months under my belt and the longest skill in my queue is about 3.5 days with no implants. Well I've got Capacitor mgmt V in my queue and it's a 14 day timer. Ironically, I spent about 7 days total training into my Procurer, bought all the stuff needed for the fit and ventured out into the nearest asteroid field. Pulled a load of Scordite in what felt like an eternity, sold it for 1.8 mill ISK. Thought to myself, "what a super boring way to make such a tiny amount of isk". Docked in station, sold the Procurer and all that **** and slapped myself for wasting all that time that could've been better spent training into T2 drones and T2 small hybrid turrets. I'm no longer considering mining as an option for ISK. I can make more looting wrecks and scooping abandoned drones in a fraction of the time and also have people trying to shoot me. I've met a couple guys from EVE Uni corp lately, did a T1 Dessie dual with one last night and got my ass handed to me, though he sent me ISK to cover my losses which was nice. I still haven't made peace with the SP timers in this game. I hate the system TBH. I can't stand not being able to do the things I want to do when I want to do them. What I've wanted to lately is solo PVP, but without T2 fit it's pretty much a losing proposition and too much time wasted trying to find someone for a fair fight. The guy I fought last night agreed to only use T1 fit, then came in with T2 drones and almost killed me in five seconds, but was nice enough to disengage and come back and start over with T1s.
I plan on applying to EVE Uni corp, but again, I will be sitting around for another week doing nothing waiting on my interview to be done before I can fly support even. EVE Online: The Waiting Game. Wait to train skills, wait to get into guild, wait wait wait.
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
95
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Posted - 2015.09.14 21:25:20 -
[172] - Quote
Caladan Panzureborn wrote:what a super boring way to make such a tiny amount of isk Ouch. At least as far as EVE's stupid SP system goes 7 days is a pretty light punishment for that sort of mis-training. Long, long ago I did the same thing - only I spent months training up to get L4 missions for my income.
At least the core SP transfers well.
Best I can suggest is what you're doing with the arranged duels. Hunt around to find something you enjoy, and then find something you're willing to tolerate to earn your ISk to do the fun stuff. With luck, you'll have the SP to do the latter quickly enough to get back to the former and stay subbed. |
Zihao
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
70
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Posted - 2015.09.14 23:24:00 -
[173] - Quote
Caladan Panzureborn wrote:
Sounds like this game isn't for you. |
Azda Ja
Green Skull LLC
4353
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Posted - 2015.09.15 00:32:21 -
[174] - Quote
Caladan Panzureborn wrote: Well I've got Capacitor mgmt V in my queue and it's a 14 day timer.
I've been playing over a year and still have both the cap skills at 4 and do just fine.
Would they help at 5? Damn right they would. Am I going ot get them? Yes, and soon. Do you need them so young? **** no, train something shorter and more immediately useful young one.
Because sometimes you die. And sometimes we are why. GSLLC is Recruiting.
Grrr I tell you. Grrr.
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
785
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 00:49:53 -
[175] - Quote
MTB Fritz Pollard wrote:
I am 2 months old in EVE now and the first month was HELL, I was hoping it gets better once I subscribe but of course after you get rid of the "this skill cannot be trained by trial accounts" stuff the game becomes deeper and more complex. I also am at the point where some of the much needed skill updates take me 10-12 days which means I m stuck at what i ca do NOW before I can even attempt to do new stuff.
I'm not sure which 10-12 day skills are keeping you from trying something new but I suspect it's more of a perception thing. I'm sure there is a way to do what you want to try and do now. I'd recommend hooking up with some vets to help you figure that out. We were all where you are now at one point. Most of us understand how lost you feel early on and are more than happy to help.
MTB Fritz Pollard wrote: With time comes acceptance tho. Talking to other people helps. You get an impression of the term "time" and how much you ganne need. Realizing there are no shortcuts for anybody and everybody had to go through what you go through now makes it easier to handle.
Not only are there no shortcuts but this game has a habit of punishing players that even try to find one.
MTB Fritz Pollard wrote: I pretty much ran into a wall at lv 3 missions...been doing them for a (felt) eternity now without being able to "progress" but you know.....doing the same stuff with ME changing (because I get skill ups) also makes me realize how actually CRITICAL skills are...not necessarily the ship and equipment. My ship and gear didnt change.....my skills did and of course my strategies and the difference is massive.
I at one point thought that this was the case also. Then after having played the game a couple years went back and started a fresh alt and found myself able to use tactics that I thought had opened up to me with skill points at much lower skill points than I had been able to use them initially. My point is that your progression of strategies probably has more to do with you getting better at the game than it does your skill points or at least more than you are giving yourself credit for.
As far as level 3's getting boring or stale they are supposed to. This game is a PvP game at it's core and the "content" is intended to be primarily other players. To me that seems like it's kind of inherent in the definition of an MMO but it amazes me as some of the gameplay in other games that is considered MMO gameplay.
To me if you are running level 3 missions solo every time you play then you should probably be looking for a solo game like GTA or something like that. If you want to play an MMO get out and do something with other players. Or do something against other players. Either way get out there and interact.
MTB Fritz Pollard wrote: So EVE provides you with the time you need to adjust yourself to everything in the game. I find it to be an elegant system :)
I could not agree more. |
Johnny Riko
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
20
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Posted - 2015.09.15 13:55:44 -
[176] - Quote
Problem is I think people want to be able to run before they can even stand up, never mind walk.
No, you're not going to be able to use T3 Strategic cruisers in your first month of playing. T3's are as close to "end-game" eve seems to get.
Then you also have to realise that larger ships aren't necessarily more useful. As a new player, getting your first Racial frigate skill to 5 takes roughly 9-10 days. Getting a frigate sized weapon system to level 5 takes 5 days. Getting relevant support skills to 3/4 doesn't take that long at all. Within your first month of eve you can be flying the T1 combat frigates with a high enough proficiency to solo PVP. Give it another month and you can improve all of your core skills.
In my opinion you shouldn't bother trying to use anything larger than a Frigate for PVP in your first 6 months of playing for a few reasons:
1. You probably don't have the isk to afford losing well fit cruiser sized vessels yet.
2. You almost definitely don't have the skills required to fly even a T1 cruiser fit with T2 weapons/tank.
3. Just because Cruisers are bigger than frigates doesn't necessarily make them better. I've been playing for less than 6 months and I only ever use cruisers such as the VNI for ratting income. For all my PVP I use interceptors, stealth bombers, or T1 frigates. Hopefully Assault frigates will get a much needed buff (or D3 nerf) to make them valid again.
4. Frigates are a much more forgiving vessel. They are agile, fast and small. If you make a mistake on them often you can make up for it without being severely punished. When you are punished, it won't cost you much and you will actually learn something.
5. You can quickly train the skills needed for T2 frigate tank/weapons, meaning that while you're having fun in your T2 fit atron, you can be training some of the slower core skills to 5, which will give you the foundations for moving into other ships.
I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
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Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Carpe Noctem. Pandemic Legion
2490
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 15:02:30 -
[177] - Quote
Caladan Panzureborn wrote:For someone that doesn't mind the traditional MMORPG level grind, the skill training here is killing me. Not only do I not mind the normal MMO grind, I'm starting to miss it. It feels like everything I want to do is days and weeks away and I'm just really frustrated with it and am on the fence about continuing to sub and play this game. I bought a Procurer with ISK earned solely from ore mining in my little venture. Can't fly it for at least another 10-14 days. Couldn't even move it from the station where I bought it to my home base. That was one of the more anti-climactic moments in my gaming life. Wanted to get into solo pvp...duels and such..can't do that for another 10-14 days after that or longer. I can't bring a knife to a gun fight. Not interested in flying a frigate as a tackler with corp. Can't afford to lose my Vexor, so can't fly it in PvP. Just feels like so many hoops to jump through in this game to do anything. Even to get free stuff! lol new Corp has a dozen steps to complete and a wiki page to get a free skill book. FFS. Is this game too hardcore and old school for a filthy casual like me? Maybe I've been trained by other games to want/need the instant gratification? Anyway, not sure on the point of this post other than to vent and complain a little. Constructive feedback is appreciated. I feel you brah. I often reflect on the fact it has taken me some three+ years to get to the point where I can fly most of the stuff I want to, and if I had to do it all over again I would just buy an 80m SP toon off the market instead.
If one multiplies two accounts subscription cost (because you really need a second account/alt) times three years, then outright purchase of a high SP toon(s) fromt he get-go is not as outrageous as it might seem.
tldr; The game mechanics themselves were enough of a 'levelling up' process, that actual SP levelling was just a ballache for me too.
F
Would you like to know more?
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Johnny Riko
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
21
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Posted - 2015.09.15 15:36:18 -
[178] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:Caladan Panzureborn wrote:For someone that doesn't mind the traditional MMORPG level grind, the skill training here is killing me. Not only do I not mind the normal MMO grind, I'm starting to miss it. It feels like everything I want to do is days and weeks away and I'm just really frustrated with it and am on the fence about continuing to sub and play this game. I bought a Procurer with ISK earned solely from ore mining in my little venture. Can't fly it for at least another 10-14 days. Couldn't even move it from the station where I bought it to my home base. That was one of the more anti-climactic moments in my gaming life. Wanted to get into solo pvp...duels and such..can't do that for another 10-14 days after that or longer. I can't bring a knife to a gun fight. Not interested in flying a frigate as a tackler with corp. Can't afford to lose my Vexor, so can't fly it in PvP. Just feels like so many hoops to jump through in this game to do anything. Even to get free stuff! lol new Corp has a dozen steps to complete and a wiki page to get a free skill book. FFS. Is this game too hardcore and old school for a filthy casual like me? Maybe I've been trained by other games to want/need the instant gratification? Anyway, not sure on the point of this post other than to vent and complain a little. Constructive feedback is appreciated. I feel you brah. I often reflect on the fact it has taken me some three+ years to get to the point where I can fly most of the stuff I want to, and if I had to do it all over again I would just buy an 80m SP toon off the market instead. If one multiplies two accounts subscription cost (because you really need a second account/alt) times three years, then outright purchase of a high SP toon(s) from the get-go is not as outrageous as it might seem. tldr; The game mechanics themselves were enough of a 'levelling up' process, that actual SP levelling was just a ballache for me too. One just has to reflect on training JDC 5 to minimally offset jump-AIDS to understand where I am coming from. F
So you think it would be easier for new players if they had access to Titans from day one?..
I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
96
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 15:42:59 -
[179] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:So you think it would be easier for new players if they had access to Titans from day one? Yes.
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Caladan Panzureborn
Aliastra Gallente Federation
9
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Posted - 2015.09.15 18:05:32 -
[180] - Quote
Azda Ja wrote:Caladan Panzureborn wrote: Well I've got Capacitor mgmt V in my queue and it's a 14 day timer.
I've been playing over a year and still have both the cap skills at 4 and do just fine. Would they help at 5? Damn right they would. Am I going ot get them? Yes, and soon. Do you need them so young? **** no, train something shorter and more immediately useful young one.
Ok, thanks. I will take it out of the queue and not worry about getting cap and cpu to V just yet and add in Thermodynamics in it's place. I think I need to go back to the Rhea Newbie Skill Training guide which is what I started with. I've been a little all over the place. I've got light drones V and small hybrid turrets V in line now. I've had to change my perception on what I can do and want to do. I've got the Vexor in the hangar and look forward to trying it out later when I'm properly skilled for it. In the meantime, my short term goal is to get fully skilled for combat frigates specifically the Tristan and Incursus with the aim of finding some 1v1 and small gang roams. I've relocated my base of ops to 0.6 space right on the border of low sec. If I ever find a good low-sec corp that doesn't require a retardedly long and difficult application process I'd like to get into low-sec full time. If any friendly, casual, low sec PvP corps would have me while requiring nothing more of me than voice comms and a full API, please shoot me a message here or in game.
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