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Svetlana Laknaya
Khushakor Clan Matari Safari
49
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Posted - 2015.09.01 12:05:21 -
[1] - Quote
The Khushakor Clan, has had some questions and inquiries into what exactly we intend on doing, and exactly what our purpose is.
1. Our purpose is to help our people: First and foremost we want to do right by our people, those of us living in the Republic primarily, but also those living elsewhere and enslaved.
2. To bolster and support the Tribal Liberation Force: We want to work with our brothers and sisters in arms, and with those who are in it for the money, blood, or other less savory purposes, we aren't here to judge, we are here to try and force the Amarr out.
3. To strengthen ties within the Minmatar Capsuleer community: Our people ought to have solidarity, even if we are capsuleers.
4. To strengthen the ties between our people and the Caldari people: The Caldari and the Minamtar have more in common than is obvious, and we would like to build on those areas where our cultures are compatible. We also believe that Caldari investment in the Republic would benefit both sides and we understand the current political situation with the State and the Empire being aligned, but we still think this path is worth it.
I will do my best to keep my Clan on track with these goals, and I urge all who would like to help to do so, and all who would want to harm these goals to not underestimate the tribes. |
Neph
Operation Meatshield Plexodus
74
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Posted - 2015.09.01 15:56:22 -
[2] - Quote
TL;DR:The Matari and the Caldari should never have been enemies. However, the situation is such that we could never be allies, and the best we can hope for is peace. Even that is doubtful, but less so today since the Cal/Amarr and Min/Gal continue to weaken. There's lots of reasons what peace would be a very good thing, so I'll fight to bring peace between us.
It is one of the great tragedies of New Eden that the Caldari and the Matari have found themselves as enemies. Despite the political situation and the nearly unbreakable bonds that our nations have to the other's sworn foe, our fight is not with each other.
Raised as one of the very few Matari in the State before emigrating to the Republic, I have seen the purity of the freedom that every Caldari lives for. The State will cast the worthless aside, but those with merit will rise without restrictions, according to their skill. This is not the slavery found in the Empire, where you are born into your life or given freedom on another's whim. This is not the 'loving aid' offered by the Federation, where they give to you boundlessly until you finally find your respect to say "No, thank you" and they declare you a criminal to be put to death. This is the honor of the State, where you - you! - are the sole decider of the course of your life.
Ours is honor born of respect, yours is respect born of honor. Our peoples have stared extinction in the eye, but we have spat in that eye and stood to fight with valor and undying loyalty to our culture and our kin. Our struggle is as one, so let us struggle together.
However, the bonds that tie us and the other's enemy are strong. Nearly as many Matari live in the Federation as in the Republic. The tie that that is is unbreakable. It cannot be denied that the Empire and the Federation are the two most powerful forces in the Cluster by a wide margin. The balance of power and the economics of business dictate that the Empire and the State will find themselves aligned. Yet the State did not help enslave the Tribes. The Republic did not aid in the betrayal of the Caldari. And what will happen when the new 'Empire of Peace' shows its true colors? Or when the Federation has decided the time has come for the Matari to swear to the Charter?
Needless to say, the alliances of New Eden are political bonds only and distrust will always be gnawing at them. Still, the reality is that the State and the Republic could never become allied without enormous upheaval of a scale that would dwarf the Empyrean Wars. The Wars were bad enough; I would never wish such a calamity to strike the Cluster again. Therefore, what we must work for is not alliance, but neutrality between our nations. Normalization of relations is not an unattainable goal.
The political and economic benefits of such an arrangement are numerous. The Republic is a market that, while still small, is mostly virgin and untouched. As the Federation continues to 'helpingly' encroach on the Republic's sovereignty, a peaceful relationship with the State would give us greater leverage to keep the Gallente in check. With both the State and the Federation able to carry on relationships with the Republic, no longer would the Gallente be the sole foreign influence on the Minmatar. If they wish to remain relevant, engaging the Caldari in a proxy war of influence over the Republic would take Gallente energy from the physical battlefield against the State and would dissolve the monopoly of foreign rhetoric that the Minmatar have suffered from. We would gain such a greater position of strength to negotiate the freedom of Matari in the Empire. You would gain such a greater position of strength to negotiate the end of Gallente hostility.
Fundamentally, a normalized bond between the State and the Republic would bring the stability to New Eden that it has been lacking since our foolish invasion of Amarr. The alliances that we have are chilling, and hostilities still burn hot. While there will always be those among us that will never be satisfied until they have annihilated their enemies, the more rational and mature of us know that a desire for revenge only is childish and impossible. Bringing peace to our worlds is a much more likely route for the full accomplishment of our ends.
Neutrality between the State and the Republic is a cause I have sworn my life to. I am proud that the Khushakor Clan is an ally in this struggle.
Still, I would look with a cautious eye to the still-pretty-recent failure of O-RED's Cal-Matari Program when considering this kind of economic program. Many Matari felt aliened by that program. Be sure that your purpose is balanced to respect Caldari aims. Additionally, while capsuleers who are warm to Caldari/Matari bonds are, while uncommon, not rare, we must remember that we enjoy a position of great freedom to travel and encounter other people and their views. The vast majority of the planetside Republic population has never met a single Caldari; it is the same in State space with the Matari. Capsuleer feelings do not mirror planetside or official positions.
There's countless issues that would hamper peace between us. I won't bother to list them because I'm sure somebody else will. But adversity has never been a cause for us to back down before. Why would we start now?
I fight for peace.
Fear the Tribes. Glory to the State. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
5516
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Posted - 2015.09.01 19:04:20 -
[3] - Quote
I am sure I speak in a manner that is representative of the common man in The State when I say that we abhor unnatural alliances and seek the day when we no longer have to maintain them. Alliances skew every part of your policy, both internal and external, they come to exert a terrible force on your culture and society.
The Matari don't seek to change us. We do not seek to change them. That should be a font of desire for peace and trading relations.
There is so much that our two cultures should be able to do for each other - as someone who once maintained a staff of Minmatar ground crew and technicians, I can speak out for their ability to solve problems on short notice and with scant resources. Ironically, despite their reputation, I never found that the Matari I employed were addicted to handouts - all they asked was to be paid a fair wage for their work.
I did have to loosen hierarchical boundaries and some process controls and I did have to give them an opt-out clause for when they decided that it was time to move on, but I found that I could place them under Matari supervision, their supervisors under Caldari management and LEAVE THEM TO IT. Provided I treated them with respect, satisfied the spirit of our agreement as well as the letter and let them go in freedom, not one technician left that didn't refer a cousin or nephew or niece to help fill the gap they left.
"Caldari Prime burns, those left behind are choking on the dust and ash that fills the air, and you demand our surrender? Is this a joke? You have only hardened our resolve. Every drop of blood you have taken from us will be repaid -- with interest."
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Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
449
|
Posted - 2015.09.01 20:49:53 -
[4] - Quote
I have also been a proponent of peace between the State and Tribes. We have no bone of contention nor do we have irreconcilable differences. What we unfortunately do have is unwarranted aggression occurring between us, now that State entities have moved to our war zone. This can sadly do nothing but harm.
I would wish KHUSH luck in their endeavors but... "Matari Safari", really? |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
5519
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Posted - 2015.09.01 21:09:57 -
[5] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:I have also been a proponent of peace between the State and Tribes. We have no bone of contention nor do we have irreconcilable differences. What we unfortunately do have is unwarranted aggression occurring between us, now that State entities have moved to our war zone. This can sadly do nothing but harm.
I would wish KHUSH luck in their endeavors but... "Matari Safari", really?
They cause roughly the same amount of damage as the Matari fighters who prey on the Caldari warzone.
"Caldari Prime burns, those left behind are choking on the dust and ash that fills the air, and you demand our surrender? Is this a joke? You have only hardened our resolve. Every drop of blood you have taken from us will be repaid -- with interest."
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Rook Moray
Aliastra Gallente Federation
11
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Posted - 2015.09.01 21:20:55 -
[6] - Quote
Something to consider.
The State is no friend of the Republic, or the Matari.
The State has a god called ISK and their slaves are called "Common Laborers" (also called "wage slaves" or "sararimen/salary-men"). Economic chains are just as binding as iron.
And if you think the Caldari Navy is some kind of epitome of honorable combat I got one word for you.
Intaki.
I don't have a deep, abiding love for the Federation either, mind you. Not under the current administration. But you should look deep into the history of the State before you go rushing off to call them your "friend."
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
5520
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Posted - 2015.09.01 21:38:49 -
[7] - Quote
He's right about us not being your friend. You can count on the State to never sign a deal that doesn't profit us AT LEAST as much as it profits you. You might get burned from time to time - but we will never come to wrap you in chains of obligation demanded in the name of gratitude for past assistance.
What kind of relationship do you want? A relationship of equals or do you simply wish to be a client state of someone else?
"Caldari Prime burns, those left behind are choking on the dust and ash that fills the air, and you demand our surrender? Is this a joke? You have only hardened our resolve. Every drop of blood you have taken from us will be repaid -- with interest."
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Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
449
|
Posted - 2015.09.01 21:54:57 -
[8] - Quote
I wouldn't be looking for friends in the State. I'd be looking for allies or simple business partners, made on a basis of honest trade and enlightened self-interest. False smiles and pretenses are not particularly useful nor desirable traits in an ally or business partner.
I can trust someone who are straightforwards in saying they're in it for themselves. I can't trust someone who pretends they're being selfless. |
Deitra Vess
Hounds of War. Hashashin Cartel
623
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Posted - 2015.09.01 22:03:04 -
[9] - Quote
I'm glad to see your efforts starting to mature, congrats. If I ever see a fleet led by you guys I'll try to get into it (if I don't have corporate duties). I will say your alliance name makes me think of..... Well, a safari. I doubt its the case but either way. |
Svetlana Laknaya
Khushakor Clan Matari Safari
55
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Posted - 2015.09.01 22:55:54 -
[10] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:He's right about us not being your friend. You can count on the State to never sign a deal that doesn't profit us AT LEAST as much as it profits you. You might get burned from time to time - but we will never come to wrap you in chains of obligation demanded in the name of gratitude for past assistance.
What kind of relationship do you want? A relationship of equals or do you simply wish to be a client state of someone else?
Equals of course. Not only do I have interest in some cultural ties, but also the simple fact that we have lots markets, that aren't at capacity. As the Republic builds infrastructure and investments, our markets are going to mature and our industries are going to continue getting stronger. The labour force could also respond very well since we have more excess labour capacity than most entities in New Eden, and our economic model is evolving, and unlikely to fall apart by depending on large factors that might change (i.e. slavery).
I personally, would like to see Caldari and Minamtar capsuleer organizations working together since official alliances don't have the same sort of bearing on us that they do on baselines, and I would like to see real good economic cooperation between our peoples. The Caldari I feel are good business partners, in my dealings with them they have been very clear about their contracts, and very honorable about following the letter of those contracts and the strings that are attached are almost always financial.
I think the Federation and the Republic should remain "Friends" but, certainly the Federation's interests aren't purely financial, they seek to change us, and make us more like them in our political structure, and I shake my head at their cultural appropriation rather than cultural understanding and respect. The state however, I think would be able to work around, and respect our culture, since isk is what they are after, not idealism.
As a gesture of good faith, Khushakor clan is willing to exchange Caldari prisoners that we find from the wreckage of the ships we destoy with Minmatar ones that Caldari loyalist groups find. I think this is a very simple, easy first step we could do with those that our willing. |
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Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
500
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Posted - 2015.09.01 23:23:35 -
[11] - Quote
Population of ethnic Caldari living in... ...the Amarr Empire: 3.860 Trillion ...the Minmatar Republic: 867.717 Billion
Keep dreaming of an alliance, filthy subhuman tribals. Keep dreaming. |
Deitra Vess
Hounds of War. Hashashin Cartel
624
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Posted - 2015.09.01 23:35:56 -
[12] - Quote
Bwaha ha? |
Jennifer Starfall
Chrysos Aigis
274
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Posted - 2015.09.01 23:39:53 -
[13] - Quote
Ms. Laknaya, you've made a brave and commendable effort to bridge the gaps in the capsuleer community created by the conflicts of the empires. It's encouraging to hear supporting voices from both sides.
If I may encourage a more audacious step, Ms. Laknaya, I would suggest you go a step further and simply return rescued Caldari personnel. I would encourage State pilots to do same with rescued Matari crews. There is rarely parity in a warzone, and Matari and Caldari alike have family and loved ones. The value, both diplomatic and economic, of such a gesture should be readily apparent.
Nevertheless, I commend you on your effort, Ms. Laknaya and wish you luck.
Jennifer Starfall
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Kyoko Sakoda
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
265
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Posted - 2015.09.02 00:53:59 -
[14] - Quote
Oooh, emerging markets! |
Skyweir Kinnison
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
61
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Posted - 2015.09.02 08:05:14 -
[15] - Quote
Just in case the Matari are in doubt, anytime your government wants to get off the teat and stand on its own feet, they just have to ask.
Since you all seem to be so much in favour of Caldari pragmatism and clear contractual arrangements, instead of providing you with 'friendship' we could convert all the financial largesse so wantonly misappropriated, into loans with contractual obligations and interest payments. It's the State way, nice and clear.
I wonder how your new business partners would deal with your inevitable default.
Humanity has won its battle. Liberty now has a country.
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2357
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Posted - 2015.09.02 09:11:56 -
[16] - Quote
The State and the Republic are certainly well-suited to each other. Both are quite young as nations.
I for one wouldn't mind Amarr working more with the Federation. We've always been quite civil with each other regardless of our cultural differences. Afterall, we don't let our emotions dictate our national policies.
Yonis Ardishapur for Emperor
"Reclaim our Empire"
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Svetlana Laknaya
Khushakor Clan Matari Safari
58
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Posted - 2015.09.02 12:16:00 -
[17] - Quote
Mr. Kinnison, there is no need for that level of negativity. The Minmatar are a proud and industrious people, we perfectly capable of taking care of ourselves. The Federation should always remain our friend, but your particular brand of Federal elitism is exactly why they should remain our friend at arms length. The Tribes are far stronger than propaganda would have you believe, and people like you perpetuate this stereotype that we cannot look after ourselves, and we can.
Ms. Kernher, I am not terribly certain if you are being sarcastic or not, but I certainly don't oppose the Federation doing business, or working culturally more with the Empire, because I am certain their culture is strong enough that we won't be seeing them running around trying to "reclaim" things and take slaves, though be prepared for young people to turn your religion and beliefs into a trendy fashion. I think it would be a good thing for all involved.
Ms. Starfall, that is anexcellent idea.
Ms. Vess, I would gladly have you in my fleets, you have a good reputation and a stellar record, certainly the sort I like to have by my side on the battlefield. |
Skyweir Kinnison
63
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Posted - 2015.09.02 13:08:01 -
[18] - Quote
I have no doubt that the Minmatar are proud, and I know how industrious they can be. I'm also quote willing to believe they can take care of themselves - up to a point.
So do it. I'm not being elitist, I'm simply proposing that this arm's length friendship be put on a properly contractual basis. If you need money, borrow it with a clear contract that ensures you can't spend it all on quixotic invasions without penalty, and pay interest on the loans like civilised nations.
Personally, I'd rather be spending the money we pour into the dysfunctional Republic on our own Minmatar citizens, who certainly do work hard and contribute to the Federation in so many wonderful ways. Too many, however, do not yet enjoy the standard of living they deserve. It's time we looked to our own.
Frankly, reducing the dependance of the Minmatar Republic on outside aid is the best path for both our nations. One has to wonder then, why the faces of your tribal representatives drain of blood each time someone raises the possibility with them?
And I'd be very keen to develop stronger and more pragmatic relations with Amarr. Funnily enough, that's another policy that causes excessive twitching from the Republic.
Humanity has won its battle. Liberty now has a country.
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Nameira Vanis-Tor
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
274
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Posted - 2015.09.02 13:08:12 -
[19] - Quote
It always amuses me observing the attempts by non Matari citizens or capsuleers to undermine the perception of the Tribes strength.
The strength of the Minmatar lies in their unity. Observers look to the Minmatar Republic and proclaim the Minmatar Tribes weak. Instead they should look to the Tribes and feel trepidation, for if each Matari were to heed the call of their Tribal Chief and all the Chiefs were to speak as one on an issue then they would be unstoppable.
The Mimmatar Tribes are the most populous people of New Eden, it's members are employed in the Caldari State, Roam Null and Low Sec in vast criminal organic stations such as the Angel Cartel or Thukker Tribe, 20% of all Minmatar are Federation Citizens (and voters...) and if the Ammatar were to plunge a knife into the Amarrs back their Empire would collapse. Not to mention the capsuleers who stay true to their heritage.
To all the foreigners, don't judge the strength of the Minmatar on the strength of the Republic but how vital the Tribes are to your own endeavours and what would happen should the Tribes proclaim you their enemy.
There are common grounds that can be found between the Tribes and any entity...and any entity would be wise to cultivate influence with the Tribal leadership. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2359
|
Posted - 2015.09.02 13:21:30 -
[20] - Quote
Nameira Vanis-Tor wrote:There are common grounds that can be found between the Tribes and any entity...and any entity would be wise to cultivate influence with the Tribal leadership.
For what? To gain an ally that steals your lands, drains your coffers without repayment, and drags you into wars that it swore it wouldn't engage in?
If there's one thing that the Minmatar tribes have proven, it's that the only thing they can be relied upon for is leeching off of their partners.
Yonis Ardishapur for Emperor
"Reclaim our Empire"
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Nameira Vanis-Tor
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
275
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Posted - 2015.09.02 13:29:38 -
[21] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Nameira Vanis-Tor wrote:There are common grounds that can be found between the Tribes and any entity...and any entity would be wise to cultivate influence with the Tribal leadership. For what? To gain an ally that steals your lands, drains your coffers without repayment, and drags you into wars that it swore it wouldn't engage in? If there's one thing that the Minmatar tribes have proven, it's that the only thing they can be relied upon for is leeching off of their partners. The tribes are a perpetual debtor, always swearing that they'll be able to pay back the money "next time", when they "strike it big".
Any statement from PIE is always leaden with ill thought through bias. I would refer you to Yonis Ardishapur, one of your Empires Royal Heirs and leader of the Ammatar Mandate. Rest assured he would be most interested in your views of his subjects. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2360
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Posted - 2015.09.02 13:37:38 -
[22] - Quote
I wasn't talking about the Mandate. They aren't part of the tribes.
Yonis Ardishapur for Emperor
"Reclaim our Empire"
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Nameira Vanis-Tor
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
275
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Posted - 2015.09.02 13:50:00 -
[23] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:I wasn't talking about the Mandate. They aren't part of the tribes.
The Nefantar Tribe is a recognised tribe, one that the other tribes have a bitter history with and current severe cultural differences. They cannot divorce themselves from who they are however hard they try. Plus their imperial overlords will never let them forget that they are not and never can be, True Amarr, they are a Minmatar Tribe.
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2360
|
Posted - 2015.09.02 13:58:52 -
[24] - Quote
There are no Nefantar in the Mandate. There are only Ammatar. Any Ammatar who identifies as a Nefantar is as foolish as a True Amarr that identifies as Udorian. This is why the Mandate has started to become a productive and devoted part of Amarr: Because those who continued to identify by as Nefantar have left.
The Ammatar, and other Amarrian Minmatar, are not members of the Minmatar tribes. We're not Sebiestor, Brutor, Nefantar, or any other tribe either. We do not identify by those labels, we do not present the marks on our faces. We are not True Amarr, correct, but we are Amarr.
Yonis Ardishapur for Emperor
"Reclaim our Empire"
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Ayallah
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
406
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Posted - 2015.09.02 14:04:03 -
[25] - Quote
Now you are trying to convince us that ethnicities do not exist?
"There are no Achuran in the State there is only Caldari."
-áFear The Tribes
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Nameira Vanis-Tor
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
276
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Posted - 2015.09.02 14:06:03 -
[26] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:There are no Nefantar in the Mandate. There are only Ammatar. Any Ammatar who identifies as a Nefantar is as foolish as a True Amarr that identifies as Udorian. This is why the Mandate has started to become a productive and devoted part of Amarr: Because those who continued to identify by as Nefantar have left.
The Ammatar, and other Amarrian Minmatar, are not members of the Minmatar tribes. We're not Sebiestor, Brutor, Nefantar, or any other tribe either. We do not identify by those labels, we do not present the marks on our faces. We are not True Amarr, correct, but we are Amarr.
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Ammatar_Mandate
Please note member races of the Ammatar Mandate = Minmatar. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2360
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Posted - 2015.09.02 14:07:26 -
[27] - Quote
I'm not talking about ethnicity. I'm talking about nation, about culture.
Being an ethnic Minmatar does not make you part of the tribes. Even in the Republic, joining a tribe is only something you do in adulthood, with the permission of the tribe.
Yonis Ardishapur for Emperor
"Reclaim our Empire"
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2360
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Posted - 2015.09.02 14:13:19 -
[28] - Quote
Nameira Vanis-Tor wrote:Samira Kernher wrote:There are no Nefantar in the Mandate. There are only Ammatar. Any Ammatar who identifies as a Nefantar is as foolish as a True Amarr that identifies as Udorian. This is why the Mandate has started to become a productive and devoted part of Amarr: Because those who continued to identify by as Nefantar have left.
The Ammatar, and other Amarrian Minmatar, are not members of the Minmatar tribes. We're not Sebiestor, Brutor, Nefantar, or any other tribe either. We do not identify by those labels, we do not present the marks on our faces. We are not True Amarr, correct, but we are Amarr. https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Ammatar_Mandate Please note member races of the Ammatar Mandate = Minmatar.
This does not detract from my point.
Being ethnically Minmatar does not make someone part of your tribes. An Amarrian Minmatar is exactly that, an Amarr of Minmatar ethnicity. An Ammatar is a Mandate citizen.
Nefantar is a tribe, maintained only by those that were too stubborn to properly integrate into Amarrian culture. A tribe is a nation, a path, a life, one that is entered in adulthood and marked on the face for all to see. Being Minmatar does not make one part of the Tribes.
Yonis Ardishapur for Emperor
"Reclaim our Empire"
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Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
453
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Posted - 2015.09.02 14:22:40 -
[29] - Quote
Little kin is correct. Do relax, people. There's a difference between ethnic Minmatar and Matari of the Tribes. It takes more than blood to be Matari. |
Ayallah
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
407
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Posted - 2015.09.02 14:31:15 -
[30] - Quote
Yes it does.
Every time we talk I feel like you understand less and less about how Tribes even work Samira.
It was the Ammatar who first heralded themselves as the Nefantar Tribe reborn and not just those who chose to return to the Republic but also those who choose to stay. Deny and try to insist things are black and white and mutually exclusive all you want, it is not changing the truth of who they are.
I am a Kameira but I am also a Brutor. I have undergone no Voluval. You are Sebiestor and have a Voluval but you insist you are nothing but Amarrian.
To what end are you trying to convince people of this? Do you think a name holds that much power?
Why is it you look at a Tribe and insist it is a single accepted culture like some Caldari Megacorp? A Tribe is many many cultures and many many people's.
Even you fall within the Sebiestor Tribe.
-áFear The Tribes
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