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Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
853
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Posted - 2015.09.01 18:25:12 -
[1] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5462383#post5462383
CCP Fozzie wrote:Increasing Choice in Projectile Ammo We completely agree that the changes we're making to autocannons and barrage in Tiamat do not solve all the problems with projectile ammo. The fact that autocannons suffer virtually no penalty for using the shorter range T1 ammo as opposed to the longer range T1 ammo reduces the number of interesting choices available to players and the tracking bonused ammo only goes so far towards correcting that problem. Tiamat is not the end of the work we want to do on projectile weapons and their ammo.
Hope you didnt forget about that Mr. Fozzie!
Medium autocannons need more range on top. Especially in a times where they need to compete against rapid light missiles which do perfect applied damage out to whatever range the ship has.
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Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
472
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Posted - 2015.09.01 18:28:35 -
[2] - Quote
Baali Tekitsu wrote:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5462383#post5462383 CCP Fozzie wrote:Increasing Choice in Projectile Ammo We completely agree that the changes we're making to autocannons and barrage in Tiamat do not solve all the problems with projectile ammo. The fact that autocannons suffer virtually no penalty for using the shorter range T1 ammo as opposed to the longer range T1 ammo reduces the number of interesting choices available to players and the tracking bonused ammo only goes so far towards correcting that problem. Tiamat is not the end of the work we want to do on projectile weapons and their ammo. Hope you didnt forget about that Mr. Fozzie! Medium autocannons need more range on top. Especially in a times where they need to compete against rapid light missiles which do perfect applied damage out to whatever range the ship has.
Wow, and only 100% wrong about missiles i guess thats....um....pretty close???
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
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Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
853
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Posted - 2015.09.01 18:36:50 -
[3] - Quote
Except when shooting a Phantasm or 100MN T3s a RLML ship will apply 100% of its damage to any Cruiser while shooting faction ammo and without application mods.
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2156
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Posted - 2015.09.01 19:07:08 -
[4] - Quote
Baali Tekitsu wrote:Except when shooting a Phantasm or 100MN T3s a RLML ship will apply 100% of its damage to any Cruiser while shooting faction ammo and without application mods.
You also didn't include stuff smaller than cruisers... |
Vic Jefferson
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
565
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Posted - 2015.09.01 19:20:09 -
[5] - Quote
Considering the top two ships on zkill at the moment are Svipul and Sabre, by a significant margin, somehow I don't think small autocannons really need that much adjustment, as at least two of the ships they get fit on are either still over the top good, the right ship for the dumb meta we have, or some combination of those.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
423
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Posted - 2015.09.01 19:26:27 -
[6] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Considering the top two ships on zkill at the moment are Svipul and Sabre, by a significant margin, somehow I don't think small autocannons really need that much adjustment
This. |
unidenify
Plundering Penguins Solyaris Chtonium
123
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Posted - 2015.09.01 19:30:42 -
[7] - Quote
Baali Tekitsu wrote:Except when shooting a Phantasm or 100MN T3s a RLML ship will apply 100% of its damage to any Cruiser while shooting faction ammo and without application mods.
what, missile that is designed to hit on a frigate have perfect application against bigger target? No way! |
Tash D'Angst
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
4
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Posted - 2015.09.01 19:39:52 -
[8] - Quote
Agreed, OP.
The Small Guns do not seem to suffer as badly, in practice. (On paper, they're horrifying-- the DPS drop off is sooo steep.)
It's the Mediums that are the most problematic, as it relates to kiting/skirmishing. The DPS drop off, even with a bonused Falloff ship/ammo/mods, is way too steep after you're out of Optimal.
I'm tempted to say just buff the living crap out of the DPS output and watch the trickle down effect, but that turns brawling AC boats into Gods. (Save the 'cane cheers aside.)
I also assume that messing with the Falloff formula is off the table. Core code is the Holy Grail of "don't touch me" in these cases.
My push would be like the OP-- for an optimal range buff, putting 220's with Fusion/PP/EMP somewhere in the realm of 15km unbonused. Twin TE setups would get that close to 20km, which IMHO would be about right. Still far from Pulse application stats, but a true mid-range weapon as they seem to be intended.
I'd probably also give Barrage a tweak-- a slight optimal bump and a bigger increase to Falloff, giving you something like 40-45km into First Full Falloff. Not gonna be hitting very hard, but you can at least apply alongside your Omen/Nomen buddies.
Aaaaand just gonna leave this here:
Swap the Vagabond's HAC Bonus to Falloff with it's Cruiser Bonus to Shield Boost amount. No reason why a Stabber should apply better without a 27 day train... |
Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
854
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Posted - 2015.09.01 19:42:53 -
[9] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Considering the top two ships on zkill at the moment are Svipul and Sabre, by a significant margin, somehow I don't think small autocannons really need that much adjustment, as at least two of the ships they get fit on are either still over the top good, the right ship for the dumb meta we have, or some combination of those.
Thats due to individual ship balancing more than anything. I explicitly wrote MEDIUM PROJECTILES by the way.
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
913
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Posted - 2015.09.01 20:48:51 -
[10] - Quote
I would love to find a site with ship ranks, apart from top 10.
It seems a full list would simplify the arguments on what's bad and what's not. |
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elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
824
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Posted - 2015.09.01 21:14:32 -
[11] - Quote
*cough* heavy missiles *cough* heavy assault missiles *cough* torpedos *cough*
..don't mind me I have something in my throat.
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
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Vic Jefferson
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
565
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Posted - 2015.09.01 21:20:13 -
[12] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:*cough* heavy missiles *cough* heavy assault missiles *cough* torpedos *cough*
..don't mind me I have something in my throat.
These are actually not bad, all things considered, when they are used against appropriately sized targets.
The problem in general with the game at the moment is that there is not a good reason to ever undock or fly things which are 'appropriately sized'.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
913
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Posted - 2015.09.01 21:23:35 -
[13] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:elitatwo wrote:*cough* heavy missiles *cough* heavy assault missiles *cough* torpedos *cough*
..don't mind me I have something in my throat. These are actually not bad, all things considered, when they are used against appropriately sized targets. The problem in general with the game at the moment is that there is not a good reason to ever undock or fly things which are 'appropriately sized'.
Heavies are typically only used on Rapid launchers on BSs in order to get better application/dps than you'd get with torp/cruise.
Most BCs and cruisers are typically used with rapid launchers. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
14370
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Posted - 2015.09.01 21:31:48 -
[14] - Quote
OP forgot to specify. Small autocannons are generally fine, and larges are not in too bad shape.
Mediums, however, are up there with medium missile launchers as some of the worst weapons in the game.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Vic Jefferson
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
566
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Posted - 2015.09.01 21:40:19 -
[15] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Vic Jefferson wrote:elitatwo wrote:*cough* heavy missiles *cough* heavy assault missiles *cough* torpedos *cough*
..don't mind me I have something in my throat. These are actually not bad, all things considered, when they are used against appropriately sized targets. The problem in general with the game at the moment is that there is not a good reason to ever undock or fly things which are 'appropriately sized'. Heavies are typically only used on Rapid launchers on BSs in order to get better application/dps than you'd get with torp/cruise. Most BCs and cruisers are typically used with rapid launchers.
Right, because if you fly something big and heavy, the safe assumption is that what you are up against is going to be one class lighter than you are, i.e. who else would be cool enough to undock something big any more?
While medium missiles and autocannons are in a terrible spot right now, there's two options. One is just buff them to be relevant in a fast moving world full of small things, the other is to to deal with the root cause and actually make big things worth flying, so that every big thing doesn't have to step its weapons down to be useful. Its a poor choice to just keep systematically buffing every weapon system to have crazy application.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
14372
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Posted - 2015.09.01 21:51:44 -
[16] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote: While medium missiles and autocannons are in a terrible spot right now, there's two options. One is just buff them to be relevant in a fast moving world full of small things, the other is to to deal with the root cause and actually make big things worth flying, so that every big thing doesn't have to step its weapons down to be useful. Its a poor choice to just keep systematically buffing every weapon system to have crazy application.
And at the very least, that means addressing the speed creep. And that needs done for more than one reason anyway.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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FireFrenzy
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
574
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Posted - 2015.09.01 21:53:14 -
[17] - Quote
Large guns are also hilariously terrible according to math done by Baboli et al. in his "making battleships worth the warp" thread (Eve-O 2014) |
elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
824
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Posted - 2015.09.01 23:20:05 -
[18] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:elitatwo wrote:*cough* heavy missiles *cough* heavy assault missiles *cough* torpedos *cough*
..don't mind me I have something in my throat. These are actually not bad, all things considered, when they are used against appropriately sized targets. The problem in general with the game at the moment is that there is not a good reason to ever undock or fly things which are 'appropriately sized'.
You are right and it wouldn't be so terrible if the skirmish warfare link - evasive manuvers wouldn't be such a gigantic bonus. That should be addressed and maybe buff the halo implant set a little.
With strong x-tinct, skirmish links and a high-grade halo implant set I can get most of my cruisers down to 45 - 80m signature radius. At this point your cruiser is a very large frigate and a battleship is a large cruiser.
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
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Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
857
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Posted - 2015.09.01 23:31:32 -
[19] - Quote
Medium missiles and launchers are garbage but thats a topic for another thread.
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Arla Sarain
631
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Posted - 2015.09.01 23:40:58 -
[20] - Quote
Celthric Kanerian wrote:Vic Jefferson wrote:Considering the top two ships on zkill at the moment are Svipul and Sabre, by a significant margin, somehow I don't think small autocannons really need that much adjustment This. It takes 6 effective turrets to make ACs anywhere near good, along with a historical bias towards sabres due to their slot layout and fitting.
Svipuls are cancer with or without ACs.
Looking at numbers without context doesn't represent reality. It just offers a possible interpretation. |
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Vic Jefferson
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
566
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Posted - 2015.09.01 23:57:43 -
[21] - Quote
Baali Tekitsu wrote:Medium missiles and launchers are garbage but thats a topic for another thread.
I'm surprised you think so. The same root cause is behind most of this, so I don't really see it as a separate problem. Why play whack a mole when you could play....um....er....whack a hippo?
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
14372
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Posted - 2015.09.02 00:05:37 -
[22] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Baali Tekitsu wrote:Medium missiles and launchers are garbage but thats a topic for another thread. I'm surprised you think so. The same root cause is behind most of this, so I don't really see it as a separate problem. Why play whack a mole when you could play....um....er....whack a hippo?
Elephant. Although we'll need to play with a handicap, since some people in the room can't see it.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
857
|
Posted - 2015.09.02 01:48:50 -
[23] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Baali Tekitsu wrote:Medium missiles and launchers are garbage but thats a topic for another thread. I'm surprised you think so. The same root cause is behind most of this, so I don't really see it as a separate problem. Why play whack a mole when you could play....um....er....whack a hippo?
Well try opening a thread about it and see how quick it gets shot down by the shitposters.
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2601
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Posted - 2015.09.02 02:12:46 -
[24] - Quote
My Sleipnir is afraid of the buff you ask for. So much power is not meant to be held by one ship.
Autocannons are fine, but short-range-turret T2-long-range ammo sucks because it doesn't add any freakin' range.
Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom
Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm
The Succubus looks meaner
But the Revenant cleaner
Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
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Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
475
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Posted - 2015.09.02 03:01:15 -
[25] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:My Sleipnir is afraid of the buff you ask for. So much power is not meant to be held by one ship.
Autocannons are fine, but short-range-turret T2-long-range ammo sucks because it doesn't add any freakin' range.
Oh, you mean like orthrus, gila, garmur, ishtar? Those totally don't have too much power and battlefield control (although ishtar has gotten a smidge better after nerfs).
The whole "because the sleipnir is fine, all a/c ships are fine" argument is dumb. I'm tired of hearing about the 1 ship, that has a 100% bonus to damage to its weapon system and a fall-off bonus (the two main things a/c's need to function half-way decently) creating the "we can't buff a/c's because the sleip is strong" arguement. Its a CS, and it has absurd bonuses as a way of offsetting how **** autocannons are.
It also has the benefit of being able to squeeze in dual XLASB's (that are shield boost bonused), something most other CS can't. That has nothing to do with autocannons as a weapon system. That is why its a strong ship.
Now, look at any autocannon ship that doesn't have a fall-off bonus, like an a/c kite cane. With 425's you're hitting deep into your fall-off at 24-25km. Thats with 2 TE and an ambit rig. Your dps goes from 546 dps on paper, to 240dps at 23km, with 3 application mods and faction ammo (the whole selectable damage argument). Using barrage, we go up to 300dps, but locked into explosive (gg if you're fighting a shield ship). This is a ship with 2 damage bonuses, the biggest calibre gun and 3 range mods, and its doing cruiser to t3d dps in its intended operating range (medium). The vagabond, even with its fall-off bonus, suffers the same issue, except with the vaga, its difficult to fit 425's and utilize its bonuses. So its normal to use 220's, reducing range/damage application.
The current fall-off for medium a/c's are ****. Ac base fall-off needs a buff. Or, they need to buff T2 long range ammo damage, and create more variants for actual selectable damage type.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
14372
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Posted - 2015.09.02 03:19:07 -
[26] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:My Sleipnir is afraid of the buff you ask for. So much power is not meant to be held by one ship.
I'm not worried about that at all, and I also fly a Sleipnir. If they finally buff autocannons, that just means that we'll likely get another bonus in exchange for one of the 50% damage bonuses we currently enjoy. Probably tracking, or reload speed, or whatever.
Besides, as was mentioned above me, it is pretty telling that one of the few ships that medium autocannons feel good on has to have a 100% damage bonus and a range bonus in order to get that way.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
474
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Posted - 2015.09.02 15:58:24 -
[27] - Quote
being restated
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
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Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
2385
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Posted - 2015.09.02 16:08:16 -
[28] - Quote
I've always thought that it would make more sense to have T1/faction projectile ammo give bonuses/penalties to falloff instead of optimal. That would certainly allow for more variability/balancing options with ACs while still being compatible with arties.
Relatively Notorious By Association
My Many Misadventures
A brief history of C&P Thunderdome
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M1k3y Koontz
Respawn Disabled Initiative Mercenaries
789
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Posted - 2015.09.02 16:26:21 -
[29] - Quote
Celthric Kanerian wrote:Vic Jefferson wrote:Considering the top two ships on zkill at the moment are Svipul and Sabre, by a significant margin, somehow I don't think small autocannons really need that much adjustment This.
Sabre is an interdictor, it was the best before the balance and is still the preferance. It's job is to bubble things, so it gets on all the killmails. Svipuls use artillery. The only predator to interceptors, they are ridiculously popular. And almost all use artillery.
Also, those ships use small guns, not medium or large.
How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
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Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
474
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Posted - 2015.09.02 16:28:44 -
[30] - Quote
Baali Tekitsu wrote:Except when shooting a Phantasm or 100MN T3s a RLML ship will apply 100% of its damage to any Cruiser while shooting faction ammo and without application mods.
Your original blanket statement said that RLML do 100% of their damage up to their maximun range to which i said you were 100% incorrect (because they can do zero or near zero damage to a small signature, fast moving frigate).
You then revised your statement to apply to cruisers to which i now get to revise my response in that the effective damage RLMLs apply to Phantasms and T3 cruisers is ZERO since those ships will rep the RLML damage to zero and kill the moron attempting to kill a phantasm or T3 cruiser with RLMLs.
In both cases im right and in both cases youre wrong.
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
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