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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2607
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Posted - 2015.09.03 18:16:44 -
[31] - Quote
Sandrilla Sastrum wrote:Salutations again everyone. Another idea begin bugging me when I was playing with EFT and started to notice the HUGE damage spike the Dreads It's not a dreadnought.
I stopped reading that far in. Sorry.
edit: tracking
Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom
Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm
The Succubus looks meaner
But the Revenant cleaner
Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
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Arthur Aihaken
Chig
4622
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Posted - 2015.09.03 18:35:53 -
[32] - Quote
It's highly unlikely that you're going to see any battleship exceed the damage of the Federate, Imperial, State or Tribal ships.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1682
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Posted - 2015.09.03 19:00:51 -
[33] - Quote
Working as intended.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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unidenify
Plundering Penguins Solyaris Chtonium
123
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Posted - 2015.09.03 20:52:58 -
[34] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:It's highly unlikely that you're going to see any battleship exceed the damage of the Federate, Imperial, State or Tribal ships.
strange thing about a missile BS is that almost all BS do a exactly same raw dps when pilot have level 5 BS skill.
Only Barghest and Typhoon Fleet would do more raw dps
Barghest > Typhoon Fleet > Golem = SNI = RNI = Raven = Typhoon
*assume all have same number of BCS
In my opinion, Golem don't really need to do a more raw dps than Barghest or Typhoon Fleet since it has an excellent bonus for range and super TP to ensure that it can apply full of its dps against target.
What Marauder should have is Strong Tank Excellent application
For this, I consider it is fair that Marauder do less raw dps than Pirate BS. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1576
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Posted - 2015.09.03 20:54:21 -
[35] - Quote
Samillian wrote:No Marauders really don't need an extra damage bonus, especially as properly fit and used they can solo many level 5s efficiently.
What Marauders really need is for Vargurs and Golems not to be the only effective choices in there class. funny, the vargur and golem are the two marauders I don't usually fly.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
342
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Posted - 2015.09.04 00:27:23 -
[36] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Yes but in the meantime for everyone else not having a cap fleet to drop, is utterly boned.
It's a bad idea - I understand why you think they need help but the problem is how hard they scale with bling, drugs and links. It wouldn't be healthy.
The SP requirements of Marauders will prevent extremely large scale use of them. There's a reason 100+ man Tengu fleets are a thing and 100+ man Vulture fleets are not.
The last time I looked up these numbers, about a year ago, it was around 15-17% of characters that even had the SP to undock a Marauder, and these numbers were heavily biased towards the Golem, which due to missiles is the least likely to be good in large fleets. A Marauder fleet will require a unified doctrine of everyone in the same ship, and if you're looking at the Paladin or Vargur you're facing the fact that maybe 3-4% of the playerbase can even undock the thing, and the number with the SP to actually fly it effectively will necessarily be even lower than that. |
Sandrilla Sastrum
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2015.09.04 01:30:32 -
[37] - Quote
Bronson Hughes wrote:Comparing Marauders to Dreadnaughts is inherently flawed. Capital weapons are specifically balanced around needing to have a Siege Module running (or be fit on a Titan) in order to be effective; without it, a Dreadnaught will do Battleship-level DPS, or less, with absolutely abysmal application. Hardly what one would consider ideal. Battleships weapons, on the other hand, are not balanced around needing a Bastion Module in order to be effective. Adding damage bonus to the Bastion Module would imbalance Marauders relative to other battleships.
Now, the other thing about Dreadnaughts is that they get a limited number of weapons, much like Marauders, but they get no special hull bonuses to make up for this shortcoming. That's part of what the Siege Module does. If you want to add a Siege Module-like damage bonus to the Bastion Module, you'd first need to remove the 100% weapon damage bonus that each Marauder hull gets in order to maintain consistency. Are you really willing to make Marauders as useless out of Bastion as Dreads are out of Siege? I'm certainly not.
I still do level 4s on occasion, and my preferred ship is a Null Blaster Kronos. I have never wanted for DPS (still over 800 at 40km, with blaster tracking), even in a reasonably tanky, non-bling fit. I'd say that Marauders are in a really good place right now and certainly don't need any buffs.
I see and thank you for the non-provocative response. It was very constructive and convincing. I'll start to look more closely at Dreads now. |
Sandrilla Sastrum
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2015.09.04 01:51:57 -
[38] - Quote
unidenify wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:It's highly unlikely that you're going to see any battleship exceed the damage of the Federate, Imperial, State or Tribal ships. strange thing about a missile BS is that almost all BS do a exactly same raw dps when pilot have level 5 BS skill. Only Barghest and Typhoon Fleet would do more raw dps Barghest > Typhoon Fleet > Golem = SNI = RNI = Raven = Typhoon *assume all have same number of BCS In my opinion, Golem don't really need to do a more raw dps than Barghest or Typhoon Fleet since it has an excellent bonus for range and super TP to ensure that it can apply full of its dps against target. What Marauder should have is Strong Tank Excellent application For this, I consider it is fair that Marauder do less raw dps than Pirate BS.
In this case, I'd like to follow up on your T2 Bastion idea and give the Marauders some cap warfare resistance so they can actually use their tanks longer than one bastion cycle when under heavy neut pressure.
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Sandrilla Sastrum
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2015.09.04 02:04:30 -
[39] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:afkalt wrote:Yes but in the meantime for everyone else not having a cap fleet to drop, is utterly boned.
It's a bad idea - I understand why you think they need help but the problem is how hard they scale with bling, drugs and links. It wouldn't be healthy. The SP requirements of Marauders will prevent extremely large scale use of them. There's a reason 100+ man Tengu fleets are a thing and 100+ man Vulture fleets are not. The last time I looked up these numbers, about a year ago, it was around 15-17% of characters that even had the SP to undock a Marauder, and these numbers were heavily biased towards the Golem, which due to missiles is the least likely to be good in large fleets. A Marauder fleet will require a unified doctrine of everyone in the same ship, and if you're looking at the Paladin or Vargur you're facing the fact that maybe 3-4% of the playerbase can even undock the thing, and the number with the SP to actually fly it effectively will necessarily be even lower than that.
Very good point, sir. I haven't even considered that fact since everytime I'm in Apanake I see a Marauder undock every 30 seconds or so.
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Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
2403
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Posted - 2015.09.04 02:14:34 -
[40] - Quote
Sandrilla Sastrum wrote:I see and thank you for the non-provocative response. It was very constructive and convincing. I'll start to look more closely at Dreads now. Any time. I don't often troll, but when I do, I limit it to C&P.
Relatively Notorious By Association
My Many Misadventures
A brief history of C&P Thunderdome
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2443
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Posted - 2015.09.04 03:09:13 -
[41] - Quote
What Marauders actually need is to be better outside of Bastion. Of course so do BS in general. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2174
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 03:23:43 -
[42] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:afkalt wrote:Yes but in the meantime for everyone else not having a cap fleet to drop, is utterly boned.
It's a bad idea - I understand why you think they need help but the problem is how hard they scale with bling, drugs and links. It wouldn't be healthy. The SP requirements of Marauders will prevent extremely large scale use of them. There's a reason 100+ man Tengu fleets are a thing and 100+ man Vulture fleets are not. The last time I looked up these numbers, about a year ago, it was around 15-17% of characters that even had the SP to undock a Marauder, and these numbers were heavily biased towards the Golem, which due to missiles is the least likely to be good in large fleets. A Marauder fleet will require a unified doctrine of everyone in the same ship, and if you're looking at the Paladin or Vargur you're facing the fact that maybe 3-4% of the playerbase can even undock the thing, and the number with the SP to actually fly it effectively will necessarily be even lower than that.
Isn't anyone who fly amarr caps at least close to it tho? |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2443
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Posted - 2015.09.04 04:17:31 -
[43] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote: Isn't anyone who fly amarr caps at least close to it tho?
Most experienced combat pilots aren't that far off Marauders. There are three reasons you see 100 man tengu fleets and not 100 man Vulture or Golem fleets. 1. Tengu's are T3. Meaning training for a Tengu covers several ship types. 2. Tengu's are OP. Being both Cruisers and OP in the age of cruisers makes them doubly OP. 3. Tengu's have been OP for years meaning people have had plenty of time to train into them.
Marauders and CS are both recently decent, and I'll remind people that there is at least 1 low sec fleet already running a CS Doctrine. |
Barrogh Habalu
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
1051
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Posted - 2015.09.04 06:05:44 -
[44] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:1. Tengu's are T3. Meaning training for a Tengu covers several ship types. What do you mean?
I would like to point out that if you count out core skills to 5 as "obligatory" for every ship in the game (and assume you have them before sitting in anything not T1), then fleet T3Cs are easier to train into than HACs.
Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
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unidenify
Plundering Penguins Solyaris Chtonium
126
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Posted - 2015.09.04 07:04:20 -
[45] - Quote
Sandrilla Sastrum wrote:unidenify wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:It's highly unlikely that you're going to see any battleship exceed the damage of the Federate, Imperial, State or Tribal ships. strange thing about a missile BS is that almost all BS do a exactly same raw dps when pilot have level 5 BS skill. Only Barghest and Typhoon Fleet would do more raw dps Barghest > Typhoon Fleet > Golem = SNI = RNI = Raven = Typhoon *assume all have same number of BCS In my opinion, Golem don't really need to do a more raw dps than Barghest or Typhoon Fleet since it has an excellent bonus for range and super TP to ensure that it can apply full of its dps against target. What Marauder should have is Strong Tank Excellent application For this, I consider it is fair that Marauder do less raw dps than Pirate BS. In this case, I'd like to follow up on your T2 Bastion idea and give the Marauders some cap warfare resistance so they can actually use their tanks longer than one bastion cycle when under heavy neut pressure.
I am admiting that I like to see some form of cap warfare resistance, but issue is balance.
Plus, there is modules that help with cap warfare resistance. (capacitor battery). |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
343
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 21:00:57 -
[46] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote: Isn't anyone who fly amarr caps at least close to it tho?
Most experienced combat pilots aren't that far off Marauders. There are three reasons you see 100 man tengu fleets and not 100 man Vulture or Golem fleets. 1. Tengu's are T3. Meaning training for a Tengu covers several ship types. 2. Tengu's are OP. Being both Cruisers and OP in the age of cruisers makes them doubly OP. 3. Tengu's have been OP for years meaning people have had plenty of time to train into them. Marauders and CS are both recently decent, and I'll remind people that there is at least 1 low sec fleet already running a CS Doctrine.
Ever since the T3 subsystem nerf to 5%/level, Vultures have more DPS, more EHP, greater range, and the ability to fit a MMJD. They're cheaper and don't cause SP loss when killed. The only reason to fly a Tengu fleet over a Vulture fleet is SP. |
Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
436
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 22:14:29 -
[47] - Quote
Cause t2 pulse lasers with close range ammo (conflag) at 56 km optimal with 1179 dps isn't enough....
Marauders does most definately not need a damage bonus while in bastion... The range + resists bonus is much more than enough
So I say no. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1925
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 22:44:36 -
[48] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:afkalt wrote:Yes but in the meantime for everyone else not having a cap fleet to drop, is utterly boned.
It's a bad idea - I understand why you think they need help but the problem is how hard they scale with bling, drugs and links. It wouldn't be healthy. The SP requirements of Marauders will prevent extremely large scale use of them. There's a reason 100+ man Tengu fleets are a thing and 100+ man Vulture fleets are not. The last time I looked up these numbers, about a year ago, it was around 15-17% of characters that even had the SP to undock a Marauder, and these numbers were heavily biased towards the Golem, which due to missiles is the least likely to be good in large fleets. A Marauder fleet will require a unified doctrine of everyone in the same ship, and if you're looking at the Paladin or Vargur you're facing the fact that maybe 3-4% of the playerbase can even undock the thing, and the number with the SP to actually fly it effectively will necessarily be even lower than that.
So?
Like we (at least those who can't) wouldn't dive into these asap.
SP balancing is worse than isk balancing and that got us into a SUPER mess. Pun intended. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
3071
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 23:39:56 -
[49] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:afkalt wrote:Yes but in the meantime for everyone else not having a cap fleet to drop, is utterly boned.
It's a bad idea - I understand why you think they need help but the problem is how hard they scale with bling, drugs and links. It wouldn't be healthy. The SP requirements of Marauders will prevent extremely large scale use of them. There's a reason 100+ man Tengu fleets are a thing and 100+ man Vulture fleets are not. The last time I looked up these numbers, about a year ago, it was around 15-17% of characters that even had the SP to undock a Marauder, and these numbers were heavily biased towards the Golem, which due to missiles is the least likely to be good in large fleets. A Marauder fleet will require a unified doctrine of everyone in the same ship, and if you're looking at the Paladin or Vargur you're facing the fact that maybe 3-4% of the playerbase can even undock the thing, and the number with the SP to actually fly it effectively will necessarily be even lower than that. Looks at the number of Ishtar pilots before the HAC balance pass, looks at the number of Ishtar pilots now. I don't think balancing around SP is a valid tactic for making something OP.
If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
761
|
Posted - 2015.09.05 00:43:22 -
[50] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:What Marauders actually need is to be better outside of Bastion. Of course so do BS in general.
Gonna say this. I was on the fence about BS flight (learned to hate it over a year of almost straight bash ops). Something about BS i didn't like really. Had this feeling for years tbh. This was even before all the balance repasses that spawned all the meta's that had BS' fall into disfavor.
Been giving a kronos a go of late and going now this, this I could like. When in bastion. This a kronos...it and paladin by and large fight to not be least favored marauder in general. Hell when looking for a pve fit I found some eventually to serve as a base to my fit. Invariably in the threads was the obligatory...."....but you may want to try vargur instead" post. |
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Sandrilla Sastrum
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2015.09.05 02:46:29 -
[51] - Quote
Celthric Kanerian wrote:Cause t2 pulse lasers with close range ammo (conflag) at 56 km optimal with 1179 dps isn't enough....
Marauders does most definately not need a damage bonus while in bastion... The range + resists bonus is much more than enough
So I say no.
Your objective is late and I don't care anymore cause I'm going into Dreads. Bastion is fail! |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
918
|
Posted - 2015.09.05 04:05:19 -
[52] - Quote
As a Marauder pilot myself, I'm going to have to say that more dps and/or cap resistance would be OP.
However, I do agree that Marauders need to be balanced without Bastion, but only in a manner to make them more fleet viable, thus encouraging the use of Bastion when solo. Otherwise, no one will use Bastion.
My suggestion
1) give Marauders higher sensor strength, comparable to that of other t2 BSs. With the introduction of pirate hulls and rebalance of t1 hulls, the power of Marauders isn't all that intense anymore.
2) Make their local rep bonus also apply to received remote reps. The is counter balanced by their HP which is natively lower than that of other BS hulls, thus further encouraging no bastion in fleets and using bastion when solo. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
761
|
Posted - 2015.09.05 04:58:55 -
[53] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote: 1) give Marauders higher sensor strength, comparable to that of other t2 BSs. With the introduction of pirate hulls and rebalance of t1 hulls, the power of Marauders isn't all that intense anymore.
This I'd see no issue with this. Was never really sure why CCP had in place so in the first place. Its not like in pvp fc's beg for Non bonused ecm ships to pack em just in case of kronos rush. It be a bonused ecm boat that jams, well, everything damn good if skills and mods there and RNG is loving them that day.
Looking back before bastion....PVe wise well this was why I have/had tengu. I have its sensor strength pegged to where the only time I get jammed is rare as hell. Its RNG rolling that hard as hell number on d100 (or 2 d10's...pen and peer game geek in the past here lol). It has always been my gurista mission runner if giving anything else a go at the time. Kinetic bonus and weak kinetic resists of rats and all to add to the fun. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
918
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Posted - 2015.09.05 05:33:01 -
[54] - Quote
Zan Shiro wrote:Joe Risalo wrote: 1) give Marauders higher sensor strength, comparable to that of other t2 BSs. With the introduction of pirate hulls and rebalance of t1 hulls, the power of Marauders isn't all that intense anymore.
This I'd see no issue with this. Was never really sure why CCP had in place so in the first place. Its not like in pvp fc's beg for Non bonused ecm ships to pack em just in case of kronos rush. It be a bonused ecm boat that jams, well, everything damn good if skills and mods there and RNG is loving them that day. Looking back before bastion....PVe wise well this was why I have/had tengu. I have its sensor strength pegged to where the only time I get jammed is rare as hell. Its RNG rolling that hard as hell number on d100 (or 2 d10's...pen and peer game geek in the past here lol). It has always been my gurista mission runner if giving anything else a go at the time. Kinetic bonus and weak kinetic resists of rats and all to add to the fun.
When Marauders were first introduced, they were powerhouses and no sub cap could compare. However, CCP introduced them specifically as PVE boats and gave them low sensor strength and massive wigs to keep them out of PVP. However, this made them less effective than T1s in PVE, thus the status quo remained that way until T3Cs were introduced and Pirate hulls were made more powerful. Then, you finally had something more powerful than a t1 at PVE.
While I do like Bastion, it was nothing more than a bandaid to cover the gaping cavity that is the weakness of the Marauders. |
Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
437
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Posted - 2015.09.07 21:06:37 -
[55] - Quote
Sandrilla Sastrum wrote:Celthric Kanerian wrote:Cause t2 pulse lasers with close range ammo (conflag) at 56 km optimal with 1179 dps isn't enough....
Marauders does most definately not need a damage bonus while in bastion... The range + resists bonus is much more than enough
So I say no. Your objective is late and I don't care anymore cause I'm going into Dreads. Bastion is fail!
The only fail thing about this entire thread is your foolish belief in what Marauders should be. |
unidenify
Plundering Penguins Solyaris Chtonium
128
|
Posted - 2015.09.07 23:51:29 -
[56] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:As a Marauder pilot myself, I'm going to have to say that more dps and/or cap resistance would be OP.
However, I do agree that Marauders need to be balanced without Bastion, but only in a manner to make them more fleet viable, thus encouraging the use of Bastion when solo. Otherwise, no one will use Bastion.
My suggestion
1) give Marauders higher sensor strength, comparable to that of other t2 BSs. With the introduction of pirate hulls and rebalance of t1 hulls, the power of Marauders isn't all that intense anymore.
2) Make their local rep bonus also apply to received remote reps. The is counter balanced by their HP which is natively lower than that of other BS hulls, thus further encouraging no bastion in fleets and using bastion when solo.
I do like this idea
I remember someone suggest that Bastion also increase Sensor strength in purpose to make it difficult to probe down |
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
600
|
Posted - 2015.09.08 05:24:43 -
[57] - Quote
They're built for strong local tanks and for weapons projection. This makes them really only useful in the small gang fighting, but virtually a deathtrap in encounters with larger groups. Raw DPS is the Pirate ships' expertise. CCP already made the mistake of trying to force a non-PvP oriented ship class into PvP, fortunately for them it did not ruin there ability in their historical role and in fact somehow improved it in many ways. They will always be very niche in PvP. This does not make them weak, just very niche. They don't need that kind of help.
"Tomahawks?"
"----in' A, right?"
"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."
"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
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Zapp McDouche
Black Spot on Parchment
0
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Posted - 2015.09.08 09:12:10 -
[58] - Quote
The only thing marauders need is a small increase in cargo bay size and a tiny upgrade in cpu and power grid. Bigger drone bay would been bad ass but it might make them overpowered. |
RcTamiya
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
6
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Posted - 2015.09.08 09:15:26 -
[59] - Quote
Zapp McDouche wrote:The only thing marauders need is a small increase in cargo bay size and a tiny upgrade in cpu and power grid. Bigger drone bay would been bad ass but it might make them overpowered.
slightly better cap recharge, so it gets them equally balanced on each other too |
Thron Legacy
White Zulu Scorpion Federation
5
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Posted - 2015.09.09 15:19:47 -
[60] - Quote
Sandrilla Sastrum wrote:very moderate 50% damage increase I dont even |
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