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Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
1275
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Posted - 2015.10.07 16:12:58 -
[121] - Quote
edit: I should have a better attitude towards people.
Just check out 10mn fits and ultrathrasher fits, those are the real culprits. When you can comfortably go solo against cruiser gangs, something is off. |
Valacus
Shattered Silver
1
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Posted - 2015.10.08 16:09:33 -
[122] - Quote
One of the problems with the Proteus and it's stupid levels of tank is the ability to fit 2 1600 plates. That's way too much PG to work with and still have room for a full rack of guns. And it still even has the ability to pick up the ewar bonus subsystem. 3 rigs doesn't exactly help the problem either. HACs can only fit 2, and medium tech 2 trimarks aren't even that expensive anymore. |
Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
681
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Posted - 2015.10.10 17:59:40 -
[123] - Quote
Everybody and their dog runs autocannon svipuls with dual MSE's or an MSE + adaptive invuln; if you drop points of them and have dedicated tackle they have almost the same tank as a T1 cruiser with equivalent DPS, much greater mobility and 70m sig, they're also only slightly more expensive with insurance.
Did you know that a Svipul with an adaptive invuln or resist rigs with links can get an 80% omni tank? That's absolutely pants on head crazy. With 70m sig on a shield tank and 500 DPS heated. "Solo" svipul with proper resist rigs, links and a cap boosted C-type can eat cruisers all day.
Not gonna lie the ship is fun as all hell but even compared to the other T3D's it's nuts and it renders AF's even more useless. ***** on alot of cruiser and BC doctrines even. |
Doctor Knuckles
Black Fox Marauders
165
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Posted - 2015.10.11 09:52:24 -
[124] - Quote
Valacus wrote:One of the problems with the Proteus and it's stupid levels of tank is the ability to fit 2 1600 plates.
Dude please, who in **** does that.
If you go for strawmen, at least pick a decent one |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16754
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Posted - 2015.10.11 11:32:29 -
[125] - Quote
Doctor Knuckles wrote:Valacus wrote:One of the problems with the Proteus and it's stupid levels of tank is the ability to fit 2 1600 plates. Dude please, who in **** does that. If you go for strawmen, at least pick a decent one
Our point proteus for domi fleet fits two T2 1600s.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Valkin Mordirc
1537
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Posted - 2015.10.11 12:02:45 -
[126] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Everybody and their dog runs autocannon svipuls with dual MSE's or an MSE + adaptive invuln; if you drop points of them and have dedicated tackle they have almost the same tank as a T1 cruiser with equivalent DPS, much greater mobility and 70m sig, they're also only slightly more expensive with insurance.
Did you know that a Svipul with an adaptive invuln or resist rigs with links can get an 80% omni tank? That's absolutely pants on head crazy. With 70m sig on a shield tank and 500 DPS heated. "Solo" svipul with proper resist rigs, links and a cap boosted C-type can eat cruisers all day.
Not gonna lie the ship is fun as all hell but even compared to the other T3D's it's nuts and it renders AF's even more useless. ***** on alot of cruiser and BC doctrines even.
Yeah, But the proteus also has a **** ton of weaknesses as well. It's cap is bad, It may get the tank of a battleship but it's just as fast as one. It's very limited in what it can do as a T3 making it very predictable in what you're fighting.
However it IS very strong T3 in it's predictable roles.
Quote:Dude please, who in **** does that.
If you go for strawmen, at least pick a decent one
A Lot of Highsec Undock Warriors use Brick tanked Proteus' it was a popular fit in Marmite for a while.
#DeleteTheWeak
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Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
316
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Posted - 2015.10.11 12:50:42 -
[127] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:i like assault frigs and i hate t3d's, dont think they thought about assault frigs when they released t3d's, my answer to nerfing t3d's is either remove them or buff assault frigs so they can compete
I'd buff AF's before nerfing T3Ds simply because I like both but I agree 100% with your assessment... AFs are in a bad place but T3Ds are fun as F to fly.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=331004 - thank me later
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Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
316
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Posted - 2015.10.11 12:55:24 -
[128] - Quote
Arla Sarain wrote:There need to be more way that the enemy can exploit a T3Ds weakness in particular modes.
Without the modes they're just destroyers with relatively simple stats. But with them they surpass other ships at the role. Speed mode makes T3Ds faster than the majority of frigs. Defense mode makes them on par with cruisers. You can get some other frigs with similar tank but it takes a lot more bling with less turnover (22k EHP wolves exist, but not worth it when 22k +300HP/s svipuls do too for a cheaper price tag and the magical insurance they get).
For starters, the insurance needs to either go, or other ships need a similar trait. It's just too cheap to fly T3Ds. That's not to say that the insurance has no merit - it encourages you to welp yourself against unfavourable odds for the promised cost of a T2 frig but with the strength of a cruiser with frigate sized sigs and such. But that's not something that should be attached to T3Ds.
Base stats could be weaker. So that in a mode it's biased heavily to a particular role whilst being worse than average of the same size at other roles. And forcing a pilot to switch modes becomes a fighting strategy.
Hecate is the most balanced but shouldn't be the template for the rest. Having sentinels be the primary counter to this class is no better than it is now.
The solution to a T3D is scram+neut+web. Hecate is the most balanced?? I dunno, I'd say Confessor is more balanced than the Hecate... I'm confident they'll all settle nicely over time but I'm more concerned about the AF meta and where that's headed in the meantime.
Also, about T3 cruisers... I think they'll be the go-to until Battleship warpspeed is buffed.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=331004 - thank me later
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Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
316
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Posted - 2015.10.11 13:00:34 -
[129] - Quote
Valacus wrote:One of the problems with the Proteus and it's stupid levels of tank is the ability to fit 2 1600 plates. That's way too much PG to work with and still have room for a full rack of guns. And it still even has the ability to pick up the ewar bonus subsystem. 3 rigs doesn't exactly help the problem either. HACs can only fit 2, and medium tech 2 trimarks aren't even that expensive anymore.
Considering the amount of financial investment that it takes to optimize a Proteus, and the risk associated with losing that fit/hull/skill, I'd say it's in a good place. Regardless of buffs or nerfs players will shift the meta to new mins/maxes. The Proteus is strong across the board but it has serious limitations with power projection. Just my $0.02 YMMV.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=331004 - thank me later
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Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
316
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Posted - 2015.10.11 13:01:54 -
[130] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:edit: I should have a better attitude towards people.
Just check out 10mn fits and ultrathrasher fits, those are the real culprits. When you can comfortably go solo against cruiser gangs, something is off.
Not necessarily... what's the cruiser fleet comp?
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=331004 - thank me later
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16755
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Posted - 2015.10.11 13:08:55 -
[131] - Quote
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley wrote:
I'd buff AF's before nerfing T3Ds simply because I like both but I agree 100% with your assessment... AFs are in a bad place but T3Ds are fun as F to fly.
AF were in a good place before t3d showed up.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Ares Desideratus
Minmatar Brotherhood Ushra'Khan
272
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Posted - 2015.10.12 03:43:29 -
[132] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley wrote:
I'd buff AF's before nerfing T3Ds simply because I like both but I agree 100% with your assessment... AFs are in a bad place but T3Ds are fun as F to fly.
AF were in a good place before t3d showed up. That's what I think as well, but some people say otherwise. Well, pirate frig rebalance and T1 frig rebalance also had something to do with it |
Fornost Fornostsen
The Scope Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2015.10.12 08:46:10 -
[133] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:baltec1 wrote:Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley wrote:
I'd buff AF's before nerfing T3Ds simply because I like both but I agree 100% with your assessment... AFs are in a bad place but T3Ds are fun as F to fly.
AF were in a good place before t3d showed up. That's what I think as well, but some people say otherwise. Well, pirate frig rebalance and T1 frig rebalance also had something to do with it
Before the introduction of T3Ds, worms and garmurs, the whole frig/dessy meta was very good balanced (some ships were a little stronger than others, but the general balance was very good). |
Valacus
Shattered Silver
1
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Posted - 2015.10.13 16:34:44 -
[134] - Quote
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley wrote:Valacus wrote:One of the problems with the Proteus and it's stupid levels of tank is the ability to fit 2 1600 plates. That's way too much PG to work with and still have room for a full rack of guns. And it still even has the ability to pick up the ewar bonus subsystem. 3 rigs doesn't exactly help the problem either. HACs can only fit 2, and medium tech 2 trimarks aren't even that expensive anymore. Considering the amount of financial investment that it takes to optimize a Proteus, and the risk associated with losing that fit/hull/skill, I'd say it's in a good place. Regardless of buffs or nerfs players will shift the meta to new mins/maxes. The Proteus is strong across the board but it has serious limitations with power projection. Just my $0.02 YMMV.
It's high ISK, but low risk. They have a relatively small signature radius and guardians can keep you up virtually forever. Proteus gangs don't really anything, except maybe faction BS gangs, and those take just as much, if not more, ISK investment. I think the Proteus definitely needs a nerf, along with every T3D save the Jackdaw, which is garbage compared to the rest. |
Garrett Osinov
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
19
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Posted - 2015.10.13 17:31:50 -
[135] - Quote
Fornost Fornostsen wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:baltec1 wrote:Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley wrote:
I'd buff AF's before nerfing T3Ds simply because I like both but I agree 100% with your assessment... AFs are in a bad place but T3Ds are fun as F to fly.
AF were in a good place before t3d showed up. That's what I think as well, but some people say otherwise. Well, pirate frig rebalance and T1 frig rebalance also had something to do with it Before the introduction of T3Ds, worms and garmurs, the whole frig/dessy meta was very good balanced (some ships were a little stronger than others, but the general balance was very good).
Harpy is still good |
Magnus Gryps
The Alabaster Albatross
0
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Posted - 2015.10.13 20:34:51 -
[136] - Quote
Valacus wrote:It's high ISK, but low risk. They have a relatively small signature radius and guardians can keep you up virtually forever. Proteus gangs don't really anything, except maybe faction BS gangs, and those take just as much, if not more, ISK investment. I think the Proteus definitely needs a nerf, along with every T3D save the Jackdaw, which is garbage compared to the rest.
According to zkillboard about 200 Proteuses were destroyed within the last week. So, yep, they're killable. |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
8777
|
Posted - 2015.10.13 20:39:45 -
[137] - Quote
I would nerf Chromestriker, not poor defenceless T3s
[b]----
CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off.[/b]
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Fornost Fornostsen
The Scope Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2015.10.13 20:44:59 -
[138] - Quote
Garrett Osinov wrote:Fornost Fornostsen wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:baltec1 wrote:Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley wrote:
I'd buff AF's before nerfing T3Ds simply because I like both but I agree 100% with your assessment... AFs are in a bad place but T3Ds are fun as F to fly.
AF were in a good place before t3d showed up. That's what I think as well, but some people say otherwise. Well, pirate frig rebalance and T1 frig rebalance also had something to do with it Before the introduction of T3Ds, worms and garmurs, the whole frig/dessy meta was very good balanced (some ships were a little stronger than others, but the general balance was very good). Harpy is still good
Better than any of T3Ds?
That apart, before the whole meta was balanced |
Valacus
Shattered Silver
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.14 05:14:51 -
[139] - Quote
Magnus Gryps wrote:Valacus wrote:It's high ISK, but low risk. They have a relatively small signature radius and guardians can keep you up virtually forever. Proteus gangs don't really anything, except maybe faction BS gangs, and those take just as much, if not more, ISK investment. I think the Proteus definitely needs a nerf, along with every T3D save the Jackdaw, which is garbage compared to the rest. According to zkillboard about 200 Proteuses were destroyed within the last week. So, yep, they're killable.
That means absolutely nothing. They could have been 200 mission Proteuses. 200 PLEX Proteus. 200 badly fit PvP Proteus. Could have been destroyed by another Proteus fleet, which is very likely, or Machs. That doesn't make them balanced. Not by a long shot. |
Mephiztopheleze
Republic University Minmatar Republic
230
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Posted - 2015.10.14 05:53:57 -
[140] - Quote
Don't nerf T3s, buff Battleships and Assault Frigates!
Although, a ~2s 'warm-up' timer on mode switching in T3Ds would remove their insta-warp ability and bring them back into line.
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
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Barrogh Habalu
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
1080
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Posted - 2015.10.14 06:54:29 -
[141] - Quote
Doctor Knuckles wrote:Dude please, who in **** does that.
If you go for strawmen, at least pick a decent one Going for strawmen would be be bringing up 3 T2 plate Proteus.
Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16805
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Posted - 2015.10.14 07:53:54 -
[142] - Quote
Mephiztopheleze wrote:Don't nerf T3s, buff Battleships and Assault Frigates!
Although, a ~2s 'warm-up' timer on mode switching in T3Ds would remove their insta-warp ability and bring them back into line.
That's called power creep and it's very bad for the game.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Fornost Fornostsen
The Scope Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2015.10.14 09:01:46 -
[143] - Quote
Mephiztopheleze wrote:Don't nerf T3s, buff Battleships and Assault Frigates!
Yeah and then go through another 2 year cycle of tiericide and balancing...
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Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
252
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Posted - 2015.10.14 13:32:15 -
[144] - Quote
svipul 31k ehp (links and imperfect skills) with 400 dps relatively easily. agree needs nerfing
damn thing can even insta warp
and u can change modes while gate cloaked. |
Magnus Gryps
The Alabaster Albatross
0
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Posted - 2015.10.14 19:43:08 -
[145] - Quote
Valacus wrote:Magnus Gryps wrote:Valacus wrote:It's high ISK, but low risk. They have a relatively small signature radius and guardians can keep you up virtually forever. Proteus gangs don't really anything, except maybe faction BS gangs, and those take just as much, if not more, ISK investment. I think the Proteus definitely needs a nerf, along with every T3D save the Jackdaw, which is garbage compared to the rest. According to zkillboard about 200 Proteuses were destroyed within the last week. So, yep, they're killable. That means absolutely nothing. They could have been 200 mission Proteuses. 200 PLEX Proteus. 200 badly fit PvP Proteus. Could have been destroyed by another Proteus fleet, which is very likely, or Machs. That doesn't make them balanced. Not by a long shot.
...or HACs (Ishtars, Cerbs), stealth bombers, BCs like it happened in some of the major clashes within the last days. Sure you can fit 2 1600mm plates on a Proteus just like you can fit oversized prop mods on almost any ship if you wish to. But then again, what do you get? Exactly, a point range bonused brick. You will gimp the rest of your fit doing that. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16808
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:50:23 -
[146] - Quote
Magnus Gryps wrote: ...or HACs (Ishtars, Cerbs), stealth bombers, BCs like it happened in some of the major clashes within the last days. Sure you can fit 2 1600mm plates on a Proteus just like you can fit oversized prop mods on almost any ship if you wish to. But then again, what do you get? Exactly, a point range bonused brick. You will gimp the rest of your fit doing that.
We do it because its better than the t2 long point options and gets a bigger tank than the battleships it fly's with.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Valacus
Shattered Silver
1
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Posted - 2015.10.15 20:03:55 -
[147] - Quote
Magnus Gryps wrote:Valacus wrote:Magnus Gryps wrote:Valacus wrote:It's high ISK, but low risk. They have a relatively small signature radius and guardians can keep you up virtually forever. Proteus gangs don't really anything, except maybe faction BS gangs, and those take just as much, if not more, ISK investment. I think the Proteus definitely needs a nerf, along with every T3D save the Jackdaw, which is garbage compared to the rest. According to zkillboard about 200 Proteuses were destroyed within the last week. So, yep, they're killable. That means absolutely nothing. They could have been 200 mission Proteuses. 200 PLEX Proteus. 200 badly fit PvP Proteus. Could have been destroyed by another Proteus fleet, which is very likely, or Machs. That doesn't make them balanced. Not by a long shot. ...or HACs (Ishtars, Cerbs), stealth bombers, BCs like it happened in some of the major clashes within the last days. Sure you can fit 2 1600mm plates on a Proteus just like you can fit oversized prop mods on almost any ship if you wish to. But then again, what do you get? Exactly, a point range bonused brick. You will gimp the rest of your fit doing that.
What are you on about? Most, if not all, Proteus doctrine fits involve 2 1600 plates and still do plenty of damage, only they have better tanks than battleships, smaller sig radius, and they're faster. Those "point range bonused bricks" are one of the most used gangs in the game right now. |
Johnny Riko
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
81
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Posted - 2015.10.15 20:56:00 -
[148] - Quote
Valacus wrote:Magnus Gryps wrote:Valacus wrote:Magnus Gryps wrote:Valacus wrote:It's high ISK, but low risk. They have a relatively small signature radius and guardians can keep you up virtually forever. Proteus gangs don't really anything, except maybe faction BS gangs, and those take just as much, if not more, ISK investment. I think the Proteus definitely needs a nerf, along with every T3D save the Jackdaw, which is garbage compared to the rest. According to zkillboard about 200 Proteuses were destroyed within the last week. So, yep, they're killable. That means absolutely nothing. They could have been 200 mission Proteuses. 200 PLEX Proteus. 200 badly fit PvP Proteus. Could have been destroyed by another Proteus fleet, which is very likely, or Machs. That doesn't make them balanced. Not by a long shot. ...or HACs (Ishtars, Cerbs), stealth bombers, BCs like it happened in some of the major clashes within the last days. Sure you can fit 2 1600mm plates on a Proteus just like you can fit oversized prop mods on almost any ship if you wish to. But then again, what do you get? Exactly, a point range bonused brick. You will gimp the rest of your fit doing that. What are you on about? Most, if not all, Proteus doctrine fits involve 2 1600 plates and still do plenty of damage, only they have better tanks than battleships, smaller sig radius, and they're faster. Those "point range bonused bricks" are one of the most used gangs in the game right now.
They are 1+billion per ship. It also takes 2 months of training just to sit in a Proteus.
By contrast you can be sat in a Dominix within 4 days, and it's much cheaper.
I don't think T3C are unbalanced tbh, they are just very popular because they are versatile. The T3D are the problem because they actually make pretty much all T1/T2 frigates, as well as most/all T1 cruisers, redundant.
I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
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LordInvisible
The Scope Gallente Federation
9
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Posted - 2015.10.16 08:14:52 -
[149] - Quote
So, reading thru whole thread I see this "fixes" (examples are made up, just to clarify):
1. T3D: - modes get some penalties on bonuses from other modes: prop mode gives you penalty to tracking, exp radius, falloff, optimal, missile speed, reload time, w/e; sharpshooter gives penalty to base speed and agility; defense mode gives penalty to sig radius, scan res, locking range, w/e ... - mode switch is penalized with no bonuses meanwhile its switching ( switch time 5 seconds), cooldown on switching modes is 20 seconds. - they gain 15% more base sig - they gain x% less base agility
2. T3C: - tank subsystems puts ship in close range combat with appropriate removal of range bonuses, also less buffer and resists bonuses and more sig radius bonuses (or positive changes of it) on tank subsystems - range bonused subsystems give penalty to sig radius and tank
Also: isk efficiency is moot point (ISK is too easy to get via legal RMT from CCP), stay out of it. Skill reqs argument is also pointless, since its really not hard to get into a T3, you shouldnt be flying one if you are young char anway.. |
Doctor Knuckles
Black Fox Marauders
170
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 08:16:09 -
[150] - Quote
Valacus wrote:
What are you on about? Most, if not all, Proteus doctrine fits involve 2 1600 plates and still do plenty of damage, only they have better tanks than battleships, smaller sig radius, and they're faster. Those "point range bonused bricks" are one of the most used gangs in the game right now.
oh my god shut the **** up really.
NO most Proteus fits don't involve 2 1600 plates, because to do so you have to gimp the fit so much it's not worth it. FFS medium ions on a ship that is so ******* slow a dread could kite it. The only fit involving 2 plates is just a tackler, damage ain't even part of the picture.
Also ******* stop with this "baaaah proteus has more tank than a battleship"
The pretty much universal proteus combat fit has around 250k EHP (slaves, links), and it costs around 1 bil, also makes you lose SP on death. 1 plate, 250mm rails.
If you want to compare that (tankiest T3, pricetag around 1 bil) to a battleship, you don't compare it to any battleship.
You compare it to the one fitting the same role (heavy fat mofo with short to medium range guns), which is the Navy Mega. Most commmonly used Navy Mega fit for around the same pricetag offers around 420k EHP (slaves, links, which also is way more than a double plated prot gets), less susceptible to alpha, more damage, no SP loss on death, in exchange for bigger signature and bigger res guns, which aren't a factor unless your FC ****** up. |
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