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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
507
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Posted - 2011.12.10 01:17:00 -
[1] - Quote
I know that there have been far bigger fish to fry recently, but I think this one may have fallen off the list of things that have been discussed as being development worthy... and gotten a positive reaction from CCP.
As plans for the next expansion are being formulated, please don't forget about this one.
The basic points were hashed out long ago, but the preference is that formations not be based completely around artificial advantages if at all possible. Instead, it would be nice if they were designed to provide practical advantages and disadvantages simply by being used.
Formations designed to keep a remote repping fleet in range of each other (as much as possible) without everyone being aligned and moving in random directions due to orbitting, or forced to simply stand still.
Formations designed to keep a flight of ceptors at the perfect distances (3 dimensionally) to be most likely to decloak covert ops vessels in the area when doing sweeps.
Formations designed to allow an entire fleet to warp in at (as much as possible) the exact same range from their target point without tripping over each other while attempting to fan out.
Formations designed to allow Dics and Hics to be in the perfect positions upon exiting warp to have optimal coverage with their bubbles.
Formations designed to allow a fleet to exit warp with certain ships to the front (short/medium range) and others (snipers) to the rear. (Formations don't necessarily have to be small, although larger ones would perhaps be more accurately called Battle Groups).
Formations designed to group Squads and/or Wings separately if desired.
It would have been nice if certain formations would have been the key to cloaked vessels warping and maneuvering together without uncloaking each other, but that is unnecessary now that this is no longer the case.
And, of course, it would add tremendous bling to our visuals and movies.
Anyway just something I wanted to put out there. Hopefully there is still interest in the community for this.
Revenge should not stop at the ship!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Covert Kitty
SRS Industries SRS.
86
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Posted - 2011.12.10 01:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
I like the idea of "landing formations", so that an fc can lay out where various wings and squads will land in a fleet warp. This would help things look nicer than landing as a big train wreck. But also would prevent capital bumps and be strategically useful. The fleet warp command itself would also need some more flexibility, like the ability for non commanders to be assigned a fleet warp role, and also for a fleet warp command to canceled, and then re-accepted by a member within a certain window of time.
I do not support on grid formations however, that's where skill and planning need to be. |
non judgement
Without Fear Flying Burning Ships Alliance
179
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Posted - 2011.12.10 02:49:00 -
[3] - Quote
I thought the whole point of formations was that you'd get some sort of bonus while in formation. Not just the uses the OP said.
The idea of formations when coming out of warp sounds interesting. |
Handsome Hussein
203
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Posted - 2011.12.10 02:51:00 -
[4] - Quote
Formations are OP, nerf them. Leaves only the fresh scent of pine. |
Derus Grobb
Iron Oxide Institute
5
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Posted - 2011.12.10 03:50:00 -
[5] - Quote
Absolute rubbish. It should be up to pilots to fly their ships. |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
52
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Posted - 2011.12.10 04:10:00 -
[6] - Quote
Introduce AoE damage and line of fire first. Then blobs might have a reason to actually ask for yet another boost for themselves. 2008, CCP Zulu(park): "command ships are fine as is" 2011, CCP Greyscale: "is the Nighthawk actually underpowered?" Nice progress, guys. |
DarkAegix
Acetech Systems
520
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Posted - 2011.12.10 04:16:00 -
[7] - Quote
What's the use of formations when ships can pile up in huge blobs? Formations need to actually matter first, through the addition of things such as: -More and common AOE weapons -Short-range weapons which matter -No more blob-focus-dps vs. logistics -'Terrain' in space -Ships which are bonused while within proximity of each other -Penalties for ships sitting on top of each other in a blob
It goes on. Formations shouldn't be added if they serve no purpose. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
507
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Posted - 2011.12.10 04:28:00 -
[8] - Quote
Derus Grobb wrote:Absolute rubbish. It should be up to pilots to fly their ships.
Because you can control how the ships are placed now as they come out of warp?
Because a clumped ball of ships is the most effective (and visually interesting) arrangement to be in when doing remote repping?
Because in reality military vessels of all types never fly/sail in formation for tactical purposes?
I do realize what you are saying. I would not want a formation system in place that restricted what a pilot could do as far as determining the course of their ship. That's not the proposal.
Any formation mechanic would need to allow pilots to enter and leave a formation at will.
A typical scenario would be for pilots to enter into the formation selected by the fleet commander (or alternatively a smaller formation determined by the wing or squadron commanders) before entering warp. This ensures the proper positioning of ships (per the FC's wishes) upon exiting fleet warp. Any ship that needs to come in away from the main group would obviously not join the formation or be in a separate one, and head to their own warp in point (or cyno point for that matter).
Once the fleet has arrived the pilot opts to either stay in formation, or leave by changing course normally. If he opts to stay his ship would travel in its proper position within the formation. If he leaves for any reason (grab a target of opportunity, warp out due to damage taken, etc.) he can easily click to rejoin the formation at any time he desires and is on grid.
The most obvious advantages would be in keeping the fleet aligned and at optimal distances for remote assistance, although there could be many others.
Another route to take would be to bestow certain fleet bonuses, either offense or defensive, for ships that are in the various formations. That is a more artificial way of handling it, but I can see it having merit enough to investigate. Some formations could give a bonus to tracking, or damage, or speed, or decrease sig radius... anything really could be incorporated with a little creativity.
I personally prefer advantages that truly, organically ARE advantages, not contrived ones, but I would not object either way.
And yes, although it is a relatively trivial matter, how many good video's have you seen detracted from by showing our technologically advanced ships blindly humping each other in a mass of bouncing hulls.
Anyway, it used to be a popular idea. If it no longer is, I can live with that. Bit of a shame tho. Revenge should not stop at the ship!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Emiko Luan
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
11
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Posted - 2011.12.10 04:44:00 -
[9] - Quote
the formation is, "don't leave rep range"
Next. +welcome to my world+ http://venomzer0.deviantart.com |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
508
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Posted - 2011.12.10 04:48:00 -
[10] - Quote
DarkAegix wrote:What's the use of formations when ships can pile up in huge blobs? Formations need to actually matter first, through the addition of things such as: -More and common AOE weapons -Short-range weapons which matter -No more blob-focus-dps vs. logistics -'Terrain' in space -Ships which are bonused while within proximity of each other -Penalties for ships sitting on top of each other in a blob
It goes on. Formations shouldn't be added if they serve no purpose.
Excellent observations as always. I very much agree that formations should serve a purpose, although I have little doubt that some people would use them even if the only purpose they served was for aesthetic purposes.
Looking at your points:
AOE weapons such as bombs or smart bombs would be more effective against dense formations of ships, less effective against loose formations. That would be something to be considered when choosing your formation. This same rule would apply to any current or future AOE weaponry unless they affect the whole grid.
Short range weapons might benefit from certain types of formations, say a bonus to tracking (think a claw formation) or speed (perhaps a V formation).
Blob focus might become less appealing if different ships gained specific benefits from being in separate formations. Heavy hitters might gain more benefit from being in the main "cube" formation, while Hacs might be noticeably more effective in a shifting "globe" formation that gave them a reduced signature radius (made them more difficult to track), thus encouraging different target calling for the different elements of the fleet.
While we do have "terrain" of a sort with asteroids, they are rarely utilized (since currently they can't block weapons fire). It would be ideal if they could, but probably not practical to implement. If it could I'd also give good money for debris fields, or any number of other objects normally seen only in missions to be scattered around various locations (including planetary warp in points).
If a system were ever introduced to give a ship different abilities when in proximity to others, a formation system would be the ideal way to implement it.
And lastly, ships in a blob already have some difficulties when it comes to moving freely or changing direction efficiently. A formation system would formalize not only advantages a group of ships might have, but also any disadvantages various groupings of ships might have.
Just a few thoughts on the matter. Thanks for your comments Dark. Revenge should not stop at the ship!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
508
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Posted - 2011.12.10 04:49:00 -
[11] - Quote
Emiko Luan wrote:the formation is, "don't leave rep range"
Next.
Currently you are exactly right. I think we can do significantly better than that.
Revenge should not stop at the ship!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
570
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Posted - 2011.12.10 06:19:00 -
[12] - Quote
Originally purposed formation from the devs idea was that ships of a certain class type would form special squadrons and gain a 'squadron' bonus and possibly share HP partially to help out with repairs.
For example 3 interceptors formed an interdiction squadron, improved bonuses to interception range. This consistnatly ran into what if problems I think was the original reason why it didnt see the light of day.
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Aiwha
101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda
29
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Posted - 2011.12.10 06:25:00 -
[13] - Quote
I wouldn't mind if warp kept ships as they were pre-warp distance wise, but if you add formations to the game then whats the point of playing? It just turns into one big RTS for FC's. Regards,
LCpl. Aiwha |
Minister of Death
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
24
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Posted - 2011.12.10 07:02:00 -
[14] - Quote
While the CSM is up there... do everyone a favor and permanently disband it. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
509
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Posted - 2011.12.10 08:21:00 -
[15] - Quote
Aiwha wrote:I wouldn't mind if warp kept ships as they were pre-warp distance wise, but if you add formations to the game then whats the point of playing? It just turns into one big RTS for FC's.
I'm well aware of that point. I would not want a system that forced a pilot to stay in formation either.
That's why entering or breaking formation should be kept as easy and simple as possible, fully under each individual pilots control.
It would be at it's most useful in fleet engagements (although formations for smaller skirmish squads would certainly be possible) in which an individual pilot has plenty to do other than worry about staying with (and aligned with) the fleet. Especially logistics pilots or any fleet that is relying on individually mounted remote repair.
It would allow more time to concentrate on finding the correct primary, pay more attention to using the optimal ammunition, finding the correct rep recipient and getting reps on him instead of a broadside , keeping the fleet from getting too strung out, staying aligned with the fleet (especially if the FC needs to change warp out points mid stream, etc.
All of the above at your disposal when you wish it, none of it when you don't. Revenge should not stop at the ship!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
513
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Posted - 2011.12.10 18:09:00 -
[16] - Quote
Ahh well, perhaps I should have simply added this in the excellent "visual papercuts" thread. Revenge should not stop at the ship!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
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