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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
1018
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Posted - 2015.09.15 12:38:45 -
[1] - Quote
... to the tractor beam bonus. 100% isn't bad, but I find myself not fitting one because other options are superior. I recommend a 200% range bonus, but keep the 100% to speed. Can't totally ruin the Noctis.
Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.
I invented Tiericide
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Tyanir Ellecon
Cherry-Poppers Reverberation Project
13
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Posted - 2015.09.15 12:47:05 -
[2] - Quote
Its not really needed. If something is past your 48km range then all it takes is a single MJD and its almost certainly in range. 48-52km range is the only range that won't work but slowboating 4km isn't that bad. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1711
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Posted - 2015.09.15 13:59:14 -
[3] - Quote
Totally not necessary. Absolutely not necessary at the expense of anything else about that ship class, which is on the whole awesome.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
2002
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Posted - 2015.09.15 14:23:18 -
[4] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Totally not necessary. Absolutely not necessary at the expense of anything else about that ship class, which is on the whole awesome.
Yeah because increasing the tractor range would totally make the ships OP...
+ 1 to the idea. I don't see how it would hurt but it probably won't happen.
You sound like an idiot when you say "create content" when you mean find a fight, gank, etc... Stop it!
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Samillian
Angry Mustellid Decayed Orbit
982
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Posted - 2015.09.15 14:32:23 -
[5] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:Totally not necessary. Absolutely not necessary at the expense of anything else about that ship class, which is on the whole awesome. Yeah because increasing the tractor range would totally make the ships OP... + 1 to the idea. I don't see how it would hurt but it probably won't happen.
If you actually consider FT's statement he raises a valid point, CCP aren't known for buffing a stat on a ship without nerfing some other aspect of the same ship in compensation.
Just a thought.
NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
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Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
2002
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Posted - 2015.09.15 14:54:08 -
[6] - Quote
That is only true for bonuses that are a balancing concern.
You sound like an idiot when you say "create content" when you mean find a fight, gank, etc... Stop it!
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Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
449
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Posted - 2015.09.15 17:26:44 -
[7] - Quote
That is why you carry a MTU... |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
927
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Posted - 2015.09.15 19:03:33 -
[8] - Quote
Celthric Kanerian wrote:That is why you carry a MTU...
MTU is terrible.. And why have a tractor bonus on a ship if you're going to delegate tractoring to a deployable. Not to mention the MTU tractor is SO SLOW...
Here's an idea that may or may not work (if you consider the MTU like a drone.)
How about removing the tractor bonus for modules, and give it a role bonus of 100% velocity bonus to MTU when on grid?
This would mean the MTU becomes the optional choice of the Marauder. If you take one, you can loot and salvage, but you lose 100m3 of your hold. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2621
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Posted - 2015.09.15 19:12:05 -
[9] - Quote
Val'Dore wrote:... to the tractor beam bonus. 100% isn't bad, but I find myself not fitting one because other options are superior. I recommend a 200% range bonus, but keep the 100% to speed. Can't totally ruin the Noctis.
As others have pointed out, it is easy to get past the limited tractor beam range, however just the same it wouldn't hurt much to give it to them. Call it a quality of life improvement. Marauders will never step on Noctis toes because the majority of PVE mission/complex ships are not marauders.
Might be nice if the tractor beam range/speed bonus also applied a boost to the speed of the tractor beam on a Mobile Tractor Unit.
Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom
Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm
The Succubus looks meaner
But the Revenant cleaner
Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
11835
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Posted - 2015.09.15 19:36:01 -
[10] - Quote
Samillian wrote:Rek Seven wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:Totally not necessary. Absolutely not necessary at the expense of anything else about that ship class, which is on the whole awesome. Yeah because increasing the tractor range would totally make the ships OP... + 1 to the idea. I don't see how it would hurt but it probably won't happen. If you actually consider FT's statement he raises a valid point, CCP aren't known for buffing a stat on a ship without nerfing some other aspect of the same ship in compensation. Just a thought. CCP give with one hand, Slap with the other .
It's a pattern of theirs.
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1696
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Posted - 2015.09.15 20:08:39 -
[11] - Quote
I think I said in the marauder rebalance thread that they needed longer tractor beams. Paladin optimal is over 70km with short range ammo. most loot is just so far out of range it just isn't worth it...
@ChainsawPlankto
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Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
467
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Posted - 2015.09.15 20:49:35 -
[12] - Quote
How far do the farthest reaching MTU's reach? No ship is supposed to be omnipotent.
The Law is a point of View
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Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
1019
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Posted - 2015.09.15 21:22:15 -
[13] - Quote
Marauders were intended to not need things like MTUs, that is for lessor BSes. The MTU still being the better choice on a ship with tractor bonuses is ridiculous. The MTU still has advantages, even with a significant role bonus increase.
The OP suggestion would only increase it to 72 km. I'm not even asking for it to match a Noctis at 96km, nor the MTU at 125km. The Noctis bonus is 300% to range and speed at ORE Indy V.
It just seems that there is a useless bonus on the ship class that can be made somewhat less useless without being 'OP' compared to the alternatives.
Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.
I invented Tiericide
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Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
468
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Posted - 2015.09.15 21:28:08 -
[14] - Quote
Val'Dore wrote:Marauders were intended to not need things like MTUs, that is for lessor BSes. The MTU still being the better choice on a ship with tractor bonuses is ridiculous. The MTU still has advantages, even with a significant role bonus increase.
The OP suggestion would only increase it to 72 km. I'm not even asking for it to match a Noctis at 96km, nor the MTU at 125km. The Noctis bonus is 300% to range and speed at ORE Indy V.
It just seems that there is a useless bonus on the ship class that can be made somewhat less useless without being 'OP' compared to the alternatives.
Working as intended. They do not NEED things like MTU's. They can salvage just fine, or can MJD to get into range to salvage. MTU's just make it easier.
The Law is a point of View
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Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
1019
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Posted - 2015.09.15 21:36:23 -
[15] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:Val'Dore wrote:Marauders were intended to not need things like MTUs, that is for lessor BSes. The MTU still being the better choice on a ship with tractor bonuses is ridiculous. The MTU still has advantages, even with a significant role bonus increase.
The OP suggestion would only increase it to 72 km. I'm not even asking for it to match a Noctis at 96km, nor the MTU at 125km. The Noctis bonus is 300% to range and speed at ORE Indy V.
It just seems that there is a useless bonus on the ship class that can be made somewhat less useless without being 'OP' compared to the alternatives. Working as intended. They do not NEED things like MTU's. They can salvage just fine, or can MJD to get into range to salvage. MTU's just make it easier.
Actually, the 'working as intended' was preMTU/Noctis. Right now it's better to fit something other than a tractor.
Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.
I invented Tiericide
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
928
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Posted - 2015.09.15 21:36:44 -
[16] - Quote
Val'Dore wrote:Marauders were intended to not need things like MTUs, that is for lessor BSes. The MTU still being the better choice on a ship with tractor bonuses is ridiculous. The MTU still has advantages, even with a significant role bonus increase.
The OP suggestion would only increase it to 72 km. I'm not even asking for it to match a Noctis at 96km, nor the MTU at 125km. The Noctis bonus is 300% to range and speed at ORE Indy V.
It just seems that there is a useless bonus on the ship class that can be made somewhat less useless without being 'OP' compared to the alternatives.
There's no need to worry about whether a tractor bonus is OP.
When Marauders were added to the game, they had the longest tractor range of any sub-capital ship until the Orca was added. People weren't too bothered by the orca bonus,'as the orca has several other limitations and is not at all suitable for salvaging.
Then the Noctis came along and outshined the tractor bonus by an insane amount.
If you want to say an 80km tractor bonus on the Golem is OP, then the Noctis is the most OP ship in the game. |
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
1019
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Posted - 2015.09.15 21:41:00 -
[17] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:There's no need to worry about whether a tractor bonus is OP.
Oh, of this I'm aware. But this is EvE, where even things like market skills spawn OP discussions.
Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.
I invented Tiericide
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Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
468
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Posted - 2015.09.15 21:42:58 -
[18] - Quote
Val'Dore wrote:
'working as intended'
The Marauder isn't a ship designed for salvaging. MAYBE in its past lifetime, but certainly not now and not really then either. It's designed for shooting stuff and tanking. It does both those things fantastically. Tractor beams were just a nice add on. And for an add on, marauders get a heck of a bonus to them.
So yeah, it should make more sense to fit something that helps in its primary and secondary jobs, shooting and tanking. Those tractors are just a nice add on. So yes, I agree with you, working as intended, as you say.
The Law is a point of View
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
928
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Posted - 2015.09.15 21:58:19 -
[19] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:Val'Dore wrote:
'working as intended'
The Marauder isn't a ship designed for salvaging. MAYBE in its past lifetime, but certainly not now and not really then either. It's designed for shooting stuff and tanking. It does both those things fantastically. Tractor beams were just a nice add on. And for an add on, marauders get a heck of a bonus to them. So yeah, it should make more sense to fit something that helps in its primary and secondary jobs, shooting and tanking. Those tractors are just a nice add on. So yes, I agree with you, working as intended, as you say.
In the past, it was the only sub-cap that had a tractor bonus, and it was well known that the intent was to allow it to salvage/loot its own wrecks. This is why it had the extra highs and the large cargo hold.
It was, and apparently still is, supposed to be the be all, end all of PVE ships.
Their low sensor strength was also intended to keep them out of PVP as much as possible.
Even with a 100km tractor range, using a BS with higher mobility, followed by a Noctis would still be more efficient.
It's essentially a lazy man's ship. Which is why I like them so much. |
Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
468
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Posted - 2015.09.15 22:05:10 -
[20] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Kenrailae wrote:Val'Dore wrote:
'working as intended'
The Marauder isn't a ship designed for salvaging. MAYBE in its past lifetime, but certainly not now and not really then either. It's designed for shooting stuff and tanking. It does both those things fantastically. Tractor beams were just a nice add on. And for an add on, marauders get a heck of a bonus to them. So yeah, it should make more sense to fit something that helps in its primary and secondary jobs, shooting and tanking. Those tractors are just a nice add on. So yes, I agree with you, working as intended, as you say. In the past, it was the only sub-cap that had a tractor bonus, and it was well known that the intent was to allow it to salvage/loot its own wrecks. This is why it had the extra highs and the large cargo hold. It was, and apparently still is, supposed to be the be all, end all of PVE ships. Their low sensor strength was also intended to keep them out of PVP as much as possible. Even with a 100km tractor range, using a BS with higher mobility, followed by a Noctis would still be more efficient. It's essentially a lazy man's ship. Which is why I like them so much.
And in its current state, it can and does salvage/loot its own stuff, and even has an MJD bonus to get around more easily :/
The Law is a point of View
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
928
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Posted - 2015.09.15 22:12:19 -
[21] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote: And in its current state, it can and does salvage/loot its own stuff, and even has an MJD bonus to get around more easily :/
That is a crappy use of an MJD.
Not to mention, a lot of people don't fit an MJD as it doesn't suit PVE very well, at least in the case of Marauders with their long ranges. |
Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
468
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Posted - 2015.09.15 22:20:54 -
[22] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Kenrailae wrote: And in its current state, it can and does salvage/loot its own stuff, and even has an MJD bonus to get around more easily :/
That is a crappy use of an MJD. Not to mention, a lot of people don't fit an MJD as it doesn't suit PVE very well, at least in the case of Marauders with their long ranges.
So you have to make a choice.
^Core of Eve right there. You have to choose to have your Marauder do all its own stuff and not be as good as a specialized ship... or choose to have it do what it does best and have the Noctis do what it does best.
As I've said elsewhere, the only buff I could see giving Marauders would be a larger cargo hold.
The Law is a point of View
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
768
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Posted - 2015.09.15 22:22:26 -
[23] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote: And in its current state, it can and does salvage/loot its own stuff, and even has an MJD bonus to get around more easily :/
You can also dual prop them to get around faster. My kronos is MJD and MWD fit. I went retro here I guess. I remember the good old days of salvage catalyst MWD'ing around and back there again as needed it seems. Some will recall this before noctis a thing.
TBH I use tractor for the mission item rat/container only really. Just try to have that final item carrying die close enough for tractor really.
Noctis does do it better. KInd of its role really. Marauder can still loot decent, just have to setup your kills in clusters really to cut the travel time down a bit.
Or be like me and write off loot and salvage most of the time anyway. What ccp has done to the drop tables over the years....makes you wanna cry really lol. But that is me being jaded/bitter and recalling much better drops back in the day. |
Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
468
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Posted - 2015.09.15 22:25:14 -
[24] - Quote
Zan Shiro wrote: I remember the good old days of salvage catalyst MWD'ing around and back there again as needed it seems.
^THIS
The Law is a point of View
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2469
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Posted - 2015.09.15 23:22:26 -
[25] - Quote
Marauders don't need a unique buff. All Battleships in general need a substantial buff and Marauders will (should) inherit the same buffs as their T1 brethren will get in order to make Battleships relevant in the Meta again. Of course we have to wait till after Vanguard to get this since the BC buff is shipping with Vanguard. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
928
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Posted - 2015.09.16 00:20:33 -
[26] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Marauders don't need a unique buff. All Battleships in general need a substantial buff and Marauders will (should) inherit the same buffs as their T1 brethren will get in order to make Battleships relevant in the Meta again. Of course we have to wait till after Vanguard to get this since the BC buff is shipping with Vanguard.
Marauders were one of the first ship classes to see rebalance. It happened quite a while ago, I believe when mining barges were being rebalanced.
CCP did it because they were probably the worst ship class in the game. That said, they hulls were given slight tweaks and bastion was introduced with the intent of making them the PVE easy button ship they were intended to be, when they were introduced. However, bastion was given immobility, could not receive remote support,'and were NOT given cap warfare immunity in order to keep their PVP involvement down to very niche circumstances.
I find it likely that Marauders will receive very little love, if any at all.
In the case of upping the tractor range, this has no effect on other players what so ever. If giving Maraduers 80-100km range, at their current speed is OP, then maybe the Noctis need to be taken down to 6 or even 4 high slots. If it's possible to consider 1-3 tractors as OP, then 4-8 tractors is insane. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2470
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Posted - 2015.09.16 00:46:07 -
[27] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote: Marauders were one of the first ship classes to see rebalance. It happened quite a while ago, I believe when mining barges were being rebalanced.
That was the tiericide pass, which CCP were explicit on being about balancing ships INSIDE their class. Rather than the upcoming Battleship pass they are discussing which is intended to be about balance between the classes. They had to get through nearly all the tiericide so that the classes were flatter at least before they could start balancing between classes as initially they had way way too many outliers. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
104
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Posted - 2015.09.16 01:09:11 -
[28] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:Val'Dore wrote:
'working as intended'
The Marauder isn't a ship designed for salvaging. MAYBE in its past lifetime, but certainly not now and not really then either. It's designed for shooting stuff and tanking. It does both those things fantastically. Tractor beams were just a nice add on. And for an add on, marauders get a heck of a bonus to them. So yeah, it should make more sense to fit something that helps in its primary and secondary jobs, shooting and tanking. Those tractors are just a nice add on. So yes, I agree with you, working as intended, as you say.
Do you even fly Marauders? It doesn't sound like you do.
The tractor beam bonus on the Marauders is worthless at only 48km. Extending it to 72km will at least make it worth fitting a tractor beam on it, otherwise it's usually an ignored attribute.
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Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
468
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Posted - 2015.09.16 01:12:43 -
[29] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Kenrailae wrote:Val'Dore wrote:
'working as intended'
The Marauder isn't a ship designed for salvaging. MAYBE in its past lifetime, but certainly not now and not really then either. It's designed for shooting stuff and tanking. It does both those things fantastically. Tractor beams were just a nice add on. And for an add on, marauders get a heck of a bonus to them. So yeah, it should make more sense to fit something that helps in its primary and secondary jobs, shooting and tanking. Those tractors are just a nice add on. So yes, I agree with you, working as intended, as you say. Do you even fly Marauders? It doesn't sound like you do. The tractor beam bonus on the Marauders is worthless at only 48km. Extending it to 72km will at least make it worth fitting a tractor beam on it, otherwise it's usually an ignored attribute.
Yeah, I do. But like Zan, I tend to just ignore loot, or MWD over and get the 1 can I need. 48k tractor is better than most everything in game. No, it's not as good as a Noctis, but it also shouldn't be, nor an orca, which uses a capital tractor, but again, shouldn't be. 48K tractor is a HUGE bonus to a tertiary function.
I just don't expect to have my cake and eat it too, and my ice cream as well. That isn't balance.
The Law is a point of View
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
931
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Posted - 2015.09.16 02:02:15 -
[30] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:
Yeah, I do. But like Zan, I tend to just ignore loot, or MWD over and get the 1 can I need. 48k tractor is better than most everything in game. No, it's not as good as a Noctis, but it also shouldn't be, nor an orca, which uses a capital tractor, but again, shouldn't be. 48K tractor is a HUGE bonus to a tertiary function.
I just don't expect to have my cake and eat it too, and my ice cream as well. That isn't balance.
An Orca does NOT fit a capital tractor beam.
Yes, 48km is the longest range of any sub-cap other than Noctis and Orca. However, other ship classes have higher mobility and their greatest strengths are not limited to mobility.
Now, in the case of Marauders, before bastion/tiericide Marauders would commonly not fit and/or project out past 40km. With bastion, all the Marauders can easily out range that bonus even with short range weapons. It was intended that they would be able to collect anything within effective kill range. That said, their effective kill range has gotten quite a bit farther. Hell, most of them can likely kill at 100km if they want to. So, their collection range needs to be adjusted to suit their kill range. 70km might be fine, but is still limited when you consider the original bonus intended for the not to have to move. I still say a 100km range is fine.
It's balanced in 1 of 2 ways.
1) Fitting costs and lack of modules.. If you only have 1-3 tractors fitted, you're still not going to be anywhere near as efficient as a Noctis and also assumes you're using salvage drones, which again are nowhere near as effective as a Noctis.
2) If you fit a mobile command to refit tractors/salvage then you're using cargo hold to carry it, which limits their hold even more, which is already less than half of what a Noctis call pull off. There are still some missions to which a Marauder does not have enough hold to carry everything, especially when carrying a mobile command. |
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