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Jaret Victorian
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
282
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Posted - 2015.09.17 22:20:20 -
[31] - Quote
I say we must research how fast he will become depressed and suicidal. It is very, very important.
How do you perform such tests, hm... I am not an expert, but put him in cage probably?
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Follow us on GalNet!
When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
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Quattras Peione
Gentlemen of Fortune.
155
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Posted - 2015.09.17 22:42:33 -
[32] - Quote
I have already conferred with Seraphim, requesting that a battery of psych evaluations be administered while he is in recovery. As for his mental well-being in the future, only time will tell. He will be kept in close observation.
Dr. Quattras Alvar Peione
No, I'm not that kind of doctor.
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Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
509
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Posted - 2015.09.17 23:31:02 -
[33] - Quote
It is a grievous, grievous sin for a True Amarr GÇö a Chosen of God GÇö to de-Amarrize himself into a lesser bloodline. A grievous, grievous sin. |
Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
7806
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Posted - 2015.09.18 00:46:33 -
[34] - Quote
This was a bad idea. I've told the capsuleer formerly known as Frenjo Borkstar as much.
Genetic Angel Laboratories and the Peione Foundation should have known better. You all should have known better. Did any of you actually stop for one second to consider if what you did was in any way a wise course of action?
While Rook Moray is wrong in the possibility of the Jovian disease, he's totally right in his idea that the capsuleer formerly known as Frenjo Borkstar might now have it. Probably has it even.
So even if he doesn't die very quickly in the next six months as his organs react violently to the lack of Jovian equipment in his body, he can look forward to suddenly deciding to stop living one day.
There's possibly even time to reverse it before his organs fail. Someone should probably jump to it.
Fear and Loathing in Internet Spaceships
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Quattras Peione
Gentlemen of Fortune.
157
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Posted - 2015.09.18 01:05:13 -
[35] - Quote
Apparently it is necessary to once again state that the only involvement that the Foundation and I have in this matter is personal support for Viriel, n+¬e Borkstar. We neither endorsed nor enabled the procedure or the research leading up to this moment. The Peione Foundation is a humanitarian aid agency and nothing more. My field of expertise is Military Science, completely unrelated to medicine or genetic research.
There are backup clones on standby, should the worst come to be. This was a point on which I insisted with both the staff of Angels Labs and my dear friend Viriel. Short of actually preventing the experiment itself, which was beyond my control, I assure you all that I and my staff are taking every possible precaution to protect both the physical health of Viriel and the integrity of his (admittedly already dubious) mental well-being.
That said, Ms. Riordan, it surprises me that you of all individuals, as a prominent transhumanist, would take such a strong stance against this experiment. To be frank, it seems to me like something that I would hear whispered rumors of happening in Origin. Please take no offense, as none is intended; it is not mine to judge.
Dr. Quattras Alvar Peione
No, I'm not that kind of doctor.
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Yockerbow
Aliastra Gallente Federation
39
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Posted - 2015.09.18 06:07:26 -
[36] - Quote
Quattras Peione wrote:That said, Ms. Riordan, it surprises me that you of all individuals, as a prominent transhumanist, would take such a strong stance against this experiment. To be frank, it seems to me like something that I would hear whispered rumors of happening in Origin. Please take no offense, as none is intended; it is not mine to judge.
I'm guessing the appropriate analogy would be a prominent avant-garde chef telling you that it is in fact still a bad idea to ice your cake with cyanide. |
Kalaratiri
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
739
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Posted - 2015.09.18 06:28:06 -
[37] - Quote
Some people are just too stupid to live.
She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.
This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums. -á- CCP Falcon
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Doctor Valate
Delve Medical Services
50
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Posted - 2015.09.18 13:56:09 -
[38] - Quote
For some reason, the thread title reminded me of that old gag in holo films.
You know, the one with the doctor with the strong accent.
"I have good news und bad news" "What's the good news, Doctor?" "The operation was a complete success." "And the bad news ?" "Unfortunately, the patient died."
Doctor Valerie Valate. Not to be confused with the other Valerie Valate.
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Grash Uriza
Obsidian Cadre Habitual Chaos
15
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Posted - 2015.09.18 14:28:19 -
[39] - Quote
Rook Moray wrote: But the rest of us were immune because we were genetically just different enough.
And now you've gone and brought all of us one step closer to making EVERYONE IN THE F*UCKING CLUSTER suscepitble to this disease.
The Jovian Disease is purely genetic in origin. It's is not a transmittable say in the same way you'll get a cold. Only the Jove have it because through they chose to interbreed through extreme repeated cloning. It has caused irreparable damage to their DNA.
Or simply, the Jovian Disease is what happens when you marry our cousin and then have a kid. |
Grash Uriza
Obsidian Cadre Habitual Chaos
16
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Posted - 2015.09.18 14:40:01 -
[40] - Quote
Quattras Peione wrote:Apparently it is necessary to once again state that the only involvement that the Foundation and I have in this matter is personal support for Viriel, n+¬e Borkstar. We neither endorsed nor enabled the procedure or the research leading up to this moment. The Peione Foundation is a humanitarian aid agency and nothing more. My field of expertise is Military Science, completely unrelated to medicine or genetic research.
While you might not be wearing a lab coat, there's no mistaking the advantage of a Jove Enabled pilot. So please cut the hypocrisy in that you "just support" Borkstar. It's to your advantage to be an enabler to see that this procedure goes forward. So please.
What is taking place is clearly UNNATURAL and you ignore all the warnings of the fate of the Jove by undertaking this. But It's okay... For science and military.
Deus vult, Tu es morionem! |
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Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1413
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Posted - 2015.09.18 16:03:32 -
[41] - Quote
Grash Uriza wrote:Rook Moray wrote: But the rest of us were immune because we were genetically just different enough.
And now you've gone and brought all of us one step closer to making EVERYONE IN THE F*UCKING CLUSTER suscepitble to this disease.
The Jovian Disease is purely genetic in origin. It's is not a transmittable say in the same way you'll get a cold. Only the Jove have it because through they chose to interbreed through extreme repeated cloning. It has caused irreparable damage to their DNA. Or simply, the Jovian Disease is what happens when you marry our cousin and then have a kid.
I... do not think it works that way, sir... |
Grash Uriza
Obsidian Cadre Habitual Chaos
16
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Posted - 2015.09.18 17:14:44 -
[42] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:Grash Uriza wrote:Rook Moray wrote: But the rest of us were immune because we were genetically just different enough.
And now you've gone and brought all of us one step closer to making EVERYONE IN THE F*UCKING CLUSTER suscepitble to this disease.
The Jovian Disease is purely genetic in origin. It's is not a transmittable say in the same way you'll get a cold. Only the Jove have it because through they chose to interbreed through extreme repeated cloning. It has caused irreparable damage to their DNA. Or simply, the Jovian Disease is what happens when you marry our cousin and then have a kid. I... do not think it works that way, sir...
True, we're looking at this done in isolation on a scale never seen in human history. It makes them what might be a first cousins what we would consider a distant relative genetically. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
5599
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Posted - 2015.09.18 17:26:03 -
[43] - Quote
As I understand the Jovian disease it arises more from their societal and mental conditioning than simple genetic manipulation. They sought to remove the human drives from themselves and, accidentally, removed the one that drives you to keep living and to leave a legacy.
Of course, some of these drives are inherent and inherited and could feasibly be removed through genetic manipulation, but Frenjo was raised an Amarrian and I would imagine that his upbringing and cultural references will stay with him - no matter how strongly he rejects them. Perhaps all the more strongly for that reason, in fact.
You cannot run from yourself.
"Caldari Prime burns, those left behind are choking on the dust and ash that fills the air, and you demand our surrender? Is this a joke? You have only hardened our resolve. Every drop of blood you have taken from us will be repaid -- with interest."
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Lunarisse Aspenstar
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
496
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Posted - 2015.09.18 20:23:03 -
[44] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:As I understand the Jovian disease it arises more from their societal and mental conditioning than simple genetic manipulation. They sought to remove the human drives from themselves and, accidentally, removed the one that drives you to keep living and to leave a legacy.
Of course, some of these drives are inherent and inherited and could feasibly be removed through genetic manipulation, but Frenjo was raised an Amarrian and I would imagine that his upbringing and cultural references will stay with him - no matter how strongly he rejects them. Perhaps all the more strongly for that reason, in fact.
You cannot run from yourself.
Mr. Borkstar has claimed he was not "raised Amarrian" as a child. In all events, he has throughly rejected any such upbringing and is a "False Amarr" as Lieutenant Kernher observes. |
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1414
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Posted - 2015.09.18 22:04:46 -
[45] - Quote
The thing is... I think... that we may speculate as we want, the fact remains that we know very little about the Jove, and the Disease. It could be psychologically induced through aggressive behavior curtailing, it could be genetically driven from something else, or both, or a lot more complex... Especially when the Jove are supposed to have at their disposal a certain hefty amount of technology and understanding...
I mean, we are speaking about something even themselves do not seem able to quite understand... |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
5610
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Posted - 2015.09.18 22:18:11 -
[46] - Quote
Lunarisse Aspenstar wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:As I understand the Jovian disease it arises more from their societal and mental conditioning than simple genetic manipulation. They sought to remove the human drives from themselves and, accidentally, removed the one that drives you to keep living and to leave a legacy.
Of course, some of these drives are inherent and inherited and could feasibly be removed through genetic manipulation, but Frenjo was raised an Amarrian and I would imagine that his upbringing and cultural references will stay with him - no matter how strongly he rejects them. Perhaps all the more strongly for that reason, in fact.
You cannot run from yourself. Mr. Borkstar has claimed he was not "raised Amarrian" as a child. In all events, he has throughly rejected any such upbringing and is a "False Amarr" as Lieutenant Kernher observes.
I was not aware of this - well, however he was raised I doubt it was as a Jovian. He will still retain his trained cultural biases and perspectives.
"Caldari Prime burns, those left behind are choking on the dust and ash that fills the air, and you demand our surrender? Is this a joke? You have only hardened our resolve. Every drop of blood you have taken from us will be repaid -- with interest."
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Quattras Peione
Gentlemen of Fortune.
161
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Posted - 2015.09.18 23:11:50 -
[47] - Quote
This morning I escorted Uriel Paradisi of Jovian Labs to the recovery ward at Genetic Angels to visit Viriel.
He seemed in poor condition, with an unusual coloration and complaints of insomnia and severe joint pain. He began coughing up blood, and upon examination of his vital signs it was discovered that his clone was failing. Disregarding my advice, Frenjo (as he had been known at the time) had his scan backups destroyed before the procedure, in favor of a clone manufactured using the DNA of Misu Baniya as a template. It was determined by the medical staff that a transneural burning scan was the only resort left, and Viriel's clone was scanned and terminated.
The backup awoke and is in physically stable condition, but with what appears to be near-total memory loss, including his identity and personal history. It pains me to announce that, for all intents and purposes, the infomorph known as Dr. Frenjo Borkstar is deceased. Viriel, now his sole identity, is being held for examination and observation until such a time as he is deemed fit for release.
Dr. Quattras Alvar Peione
No, I'm not that kind of doctor.
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Jaret Victorian
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
287
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Posted - 2015.09.18 23:40:12 -
[48] - Quote
Quattras Peione wrote: The backup awoke and is in physically stable condition, but with what appears to be near-total memory loss, including his identity and personal history. It pains me to announce that, for all intents and purposes, the infomorph known as Dr. Frenjo Borkstar is deceased. Viriel, now his sole identity, is being held for examination and observation until such a time as he is deemed fit for release.
Oh! So many tales to tell! Or not. Let's hope you are all professionals there.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Follow us on GalNet!
When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
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Yockerbow
Aliastra Gallente Federation
41
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Posted - 2015.09.19 00:45:34 -
[49] - Quote
Quattras Peione wrote:This morning I escorted Uriel Paradisi of Jovian Labs to the recovery ward at Genetic Angels to visit Viriel.
He seemed in poor condition, with an unusual coloration and complaints of insomnia and severe joint pain. He began coughing up blood, and upon examination of his vital signs it was discovered that his clone was failing. Disregarding my advice, Frenjo (as he had been known at the time) had his scan backups destroyed before the procedure, in favor of a clone manufactured using the DNA of Misu Baniya as a template. It was determined by the medical staff that a transneural burning scan was the only resort left, and Viriel's clone was scanned and terminated.
The backup awoke and is in physically stable condition, but with what appears to be near-total memory loss, including his identity and personal history. It pains me to announce that, for all intents and purposes, the infomorph known as Dr. Frenjo Borkstar is deceased. Viriel, now his sole identity, is being held for examination and observation until such a time as he is deemed fit for release.
You can fix this with a proper dose of amphetamines and a visit from his first love. It worked on that one daytime holovid series, so it will work here too. |
Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
625
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Posted - 2015.09.19 01:50:52 -
[50] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:As I understand the Jovian disease it arises more from their societal and mental conditioning than simple genetic manipulation. They sought to remove the human drives from themselves and, accidentally, removed the one that drives you to keep living and to leave a legacy.
Of course, some of these drives are inherent and inherited and could feasibly be removed through genetic manipulation, but Frenjo was raised an Amarrian and I would imagine that his upbringing and cultural references will stay with him - no matter how strongly he rejects them. Perhaps all the more strongly for that reason, in fact.
You cannot run from yourself.
While I see where you're coming from with this idea, in most contexts, the brain is ultimately a machine. No matter what it has been trained to believe, pump it with enough of the wrong sort of chemicals and it'll snap like a twig. |
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
5611
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Posted - 2015.09.19 09:14:43 -
[51] - Quote
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:As I understand the Jovian disease it arises more from their societal and mental conditioning than simple genetic manipulation. They sought to remove the human drives from themselves and, accidentally, removed the one that drives you to keep living and to leave a legacy.
Of course, some of these drives are inherent and inherited and could feasibly be removed through genetic manipulation, but Frenjo was raised an Amarrian and I would imagine that his upbringing and cultural references will stay with him - no matter how strongly he rejects them. Perhaps all the more strongly for that reason, in fact.
You cannot run from yourself. While I see where you're coming from with this idea, in most contexts, the brain is ultimately a machine. No matter what it has been trained to believe, pump it with enough of the wrong sort of chemicals and it'll snap like a twig. Also, he just died, which is a pretty effective way of running from yourself.
In any case, the total erasure of his personality has to make this a qualified success at best?
"Caldari Prime burns, those left behind are choking on the dust and ash that fills the air, and you demand our surrender? Is this a joke? You have only hardened our resolve. Every drop of blood you have taken from us will be repaid -- with interest."
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Rook Moray
Cell 13 Salvage
41
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Posted - 2015.09.19 14:46:09 -
[52] - Quote
Seems to me that these scientists need to look up the word "success."
GÇ£When you want to know how things really work, study them when they're coming apart.GÇ¥ -Guristas Proverb.
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Aria Jenneth
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
1591
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Posted - 2015.09.19 16:48:15 -
[53] - Quote
Rook Moray wrote:Seems to me that these scientists need to look up the word "success." Well ... it was successful when they announced it. Prematurely, it now seems.
It sounds like there are now a few of us suffering* from amnesia around.
* beneficially, maybe |
Sinjin Mokk
Khanid Interstellar Survey and Security
646
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Posted - 2015.09.19 20:25:44 -
[54] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Rook Moray wrote:Seems to me that these scientists need to look up the word "success." Well ... it was successful when they announced it. Prematurely, it now seems. It sounds like there are now a few of us suffering* from amnesia around. * beneficially, maybe
When you think about it, the average human brain only stores and retains so much memory. A middle-aged person without cybernetic assistance only has dim recollections of their early years. Those of us with augmentations retain more, but processing all the data can still be an issue. I can remember several battles I was involved in, but couldn't tell you what I had for breakfast before them.
Perhaps, amnesia, even through misadventure, is a way for us to be able to maintain our longevity?
Dark Amarr: Rumors!
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Alesius Lerance
Chrysos Aigis
35
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Posted - 2015.09.19 20:46:30 -
[55] - Quote
To whoever was responsible for Borkstar's care, I must formally object to his release from the labs so soon after his procedure and near termination. Am I to take this to mean that you do not intend to hold him for experimental and testing purposes?
Family, Corporation, and State, in that order. What else is there worth fighting for?
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Aria Jenneth
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
1594
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Posted - 2015.09.20 04:43:57 -
[56] - Quote
Sinjin Mokk wrote:When you think about it, the average human brain only stores and retains so much memory. A middle-aged person without cybernetic assistance only has dim recollections of their early years. Those of us with augmentations retain more, but processing all the data can still be an issue. I can remember several battles I was involved in, but couldn't tell you what I had for breakfast before them.
Perhaps, amnesia, even through misadventure, is a way for us to be able to maintain our longevity? For most people, immortal or not, forgetfulness is inevitable. Perhaps it is even desirable.
Respectfully, and speaking for myself, Sir Mokk, I see no need for a reason to my situation aside from the primary one: that it served my saboteurs' purposes that I should forget. That it may have made a happier person of me is not a reason; only a consequence. I am grateful for my existence, but I don't wish to pretend that it was for my own sake that this was done. Nor would I feel comfortable recommending this path to others.
I understand that you feel our experiences are similar, Sir Mokk. I understand why you would feel that way, but, respectfully, for me it hasn't been a matter of losing a little time.
There are people who say that we truly die each time we are cloned. I guess ... I can't prove that isn't true, but, to me, this seems silly.
Forget everything that ever happened to you and everyone you ever cared about; forget your entire life. Then tell me that cloning is a true death.
I'm not refreshed. I'm not renewed. At best, I'm sort of reincarnated.
I'm not myself. And even if I don't quite regret that, it isn't an easy answer to anything at all. |
Shaddam Daphiti
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
89
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Posted - 2015.09.20 07:12:38 -
[57] - Quote
That this blasphemous experiment failed as it did... With the subject for all practicality damned for ever to oblivion does not surprise me.
Yes the clone lives but what now lives within is analogous to a newborn... Borkstar in his vanity is no more. |
Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
626
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Posted - 2015.09.20 08:12:30 -
[58] - Quote
Sinjin Mokk wrote:When you think about it, the average human brain only stores and retains so much memory. A middle-aged person without cybernetic assistance only has dim recollections of their early years. Those of us with augmentations retain more, but processing all the data can still be an issue. I can remember several battles I was involved in, but couldn't tell you what I had for breakfast before them.
Perhaps, amnesia, even through misadventure, is a way for us to be able to maintain our longevity?
Not to be difficult, but this isn't quite scientifically correct. Most people retain almost all long term (as opposed to short term, which are thrown out in only a few minutes but rarely matter anyway) memories for their entire lives, barring the onset of dementia or injury. Except in extraordinary cases, there's no issue of "storage space"; The human brain has a capacity for holding information that is frankly extraordinary for a natural biological construct, and has only been surpassed by computers relatively recently - Scientists estimate it to be in the range of around 2.6 petabytes, or 2,600,000 gigabytes. We don't fill anything close to this over the course of our lives.
The phenomena you're describing is not the result of memory loss, but memory prioritization. To put it in simple terms, a middle aged person can no longer vividly recall childhood memories because the mind has noticed they are no longer frequently "looked at", and so ceased making new connections to them. This is a mechanism by which our brains attempt to protect us from being flooded with outdated and unnecessary information which may impede our ability to think rationally ans solve problems.
But those memories are still there, and with the proper stimulus, could still be recalled. If you've ever heard someone say, "I remember it like it was yesterday" when referring to a formulaic event, they're not just waxing poetic - Extremely important memories that someone brings to mind on a frequent basis can be just as intact, and easy to access, as ones of things that literally just happened. Even more so, in fact; This is known as the "Telescoping effect".
So there's no reason we couldn't live for a millenia and remain perfectly sane. I'd suggest this sort of thing happening as often as it does with Pod Pilots might be less old age and more the fact that we melt our brains with lasers every 2 weeks. |
Doctor Valate
Delve Medical Services
51
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Posted - 2015.09.20 09:02:27 -
[59] - Quote
Doctor Valate wrote:For some reason, the thread title reminded me of that old gag in holo films.
You know, the one with the doctor with the strong accent.
"I have good news und bad news" "What's the good news, Doctor?" "The operation was a complete success." "And the bad news ?" "Unfortunately, the patient died."
Well.
I was right.
The operation was a success, but the patient did die after all.
How droll.
Doctor Valerie Valate. Not to be confused with the other Valerie Valate.
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