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Josiah Meza
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.09.18 04:16:08 -
[1] - Quote
Obviously, I'm new to eve, and considering everyone says 'train/fly small ships when you're new so you don't overstep yourself, rush into big ships and fail', I was looking at some of the T2 combat frigates, seeing as they don't require a lot of training compared to, say, a cruiser and are nice and cheap, plus being able to hold their own in 'real' PvP.
So, the two factions I've been looking at are Caldari and Amarr, and in particular ships: Amarr: Navy Slicer Retribution Crusader Caldari: Navy Hookbill Hawk/Harpy Crow/Raptor
If some experienced players could give me some info on what these ships' relative merits are, which are good for newbies, any that I may have looked over, if I'm even right in thinking about T2 frigs, etc, etc, that would be great! |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
8684
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Posted - 2015.09.18 04:44:24 -
[2] - Quote
Josiah Meza wrote:Obviously, I'm new to eve, and considering everyone says 'train/fly small ships when you're new so you don't overstep yourself, rush into big ships and fail', I was looking at some of the T2 combat frigates, seeing as they don't require a lot of training compared to, say, a cruiser and are nice and cheap, plus being able to hold their own in 'real' PvP. Well... Tech 1 Frigates do not. Tech 2 anything generally requires a fair bit more training and know-how to use properly... just a little less than Cruisers ironically enough. But the tactics you learn from Tech 1 Frigates does transfer FAR MORE to Tech 2 Frigates than it does to Cruisers in general.
Josiah Meza wrote:So, the two factions I've been looking at are Caldari and Amarr, and in particular ships: Amarr: Navy Slicer Retribution Crusader Caldari: Navy Hookbill Hawk/Harpy Crow/Raptor If some experienced players could give me some info on what these ships' relative merits are, which are good for newbies, any that I may have looked over, if I'm even right in thinking about T2 frigs, etc, etc, that would be great!
Navy Slicer: A "standard" kiting** ship if there ever was one. This ship has very good speed and very good range... but its two mid-slots somewhat limit it in terms of tactics (see: it would make for a poor brawler)
Retribution: Basically this ship is a VERY beefy version of a Navy Slicer with significantly less speed. It has the same problems as the Slicer does; "poor" slot layout for brawling. Generally, this ship excels in small to medium-sized gangs that can make use of the Retribution's beefiness, range, and relatively good damage.
Crusader: When it comes to Interceptors, this ship is a bit of a "red-headed stepchild." It doesn't have the Warp Disruption range bonus like its brother the Malediction, nor can it tank as well... but it makes up for that with higher damage. Then again... damage is kinda useless as an interceptor unless your job is to kill OTHER interceptors.
Navy Hookbill: This is a weird ship. It has a slot layout that makes it look like it can tank like nothing else... but it has limited CPU and PG. This doesn't mean it is useless though. You just have to get creative. I have seen people armor tank it and load up on Stasis Webifiers so it can do "scram-kiting**" (see: "close range" kiting).
Hawk: Take the restrictions of the Hookbill and remove them. Cut the speed down by a large margin. The Hawk is a nasty ship in the right hands.
Harpy: I do not have too much experience with Harpies... but I have seen some nasty fits that use extreme range (for a frigate) to great effect.
Crow/Raptor: Same as the Harpy. Not terribly familiar with these ships.
**Kiting: the act of staying just outside of an enemy's engagement envelope while staying within yours. It generally requires some form of range control, be it speed or use of Warp Scrambler, Stasis Web, and Afterburner.
How did you Veterans start?
The Skillpoint System and You
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DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
51954
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Posted - 2015.09.18 05:03:47 -
[3] - Quote
Welcome to Eve.
I'm sure others will give more info for each specific ship. I mainly fly Minmatar.
The Amarr Navy Slicer is a Faction Frigate, not T2.
The Retribution is an Assault Frigate which is T2.
The Crusader is an Interceptor which is T2.
The Caldari Navy Hookbill is a Faction Frigate, not T2.
The Hawk and Harpy are Assault Frigates which is T2.
The Crow and Raptor are Interceptors which is T2.
Well, starting out I'd forget about going with the Faction Frigates until you get experienced. No reason to give extra Kill Mail points to opponents. Next you have to decide if you wanna be Fast Tackle (Interceptor) or DPS (Assault Frigate). If going with Tackle then you'll want to be in a fleet. If going solo then the Assault Frigates would probably be best. Next you have to decide which type of weapon system you want, Missiles or Turrets. That basically dictates the type of stance you want - long range kiting or in your face brawler.
Anyway, I know I raised more questions to your questions. Sorry about that, this is the way of Eve.
May you have a long and rewarding career here.
DMC
'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
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Josiah Meza
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2015.09.18 05:08:16 -
[4] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Josiah Meza wrote:Obviously, I'm new to eve, and considering everyone says 'train/fly small ships when you're new so you don't overstep yourself, rush into big ships and fail', I was looking at some of the T2 combat frigates, seeing as they don't require a lot of training compared to, say, a cruiser and are nice and cheap, plus being able to hold their own in 'real' PvP. Well... Tech 1 Frigates do not. Tech 2 anything generally requires a fair bit more training and know-how to use properly... just a little less than Cruisers ironically enough. But the tactics you learn from Tech 1 Frigates does transfer FAR MORE to Tech 2 Frigates than it does to Cruisers in general. Josiah Meza wrote:So, the two factions I've been looking at are Caldari and Amarr, and in particular ships: Amarr: Navy Slicer Retribution Crusader Caldari: Navy Hookbill Hawk/Harpy Crow/Raptor If some experienced players could give me some info on what these ships' relative merits are, which are good for newbies, any that I may have looked over, if I'm even right in thinking about T2 frigs, etc, etc, that would be great! Navy Slicer: A "standard" kiting** ship if there ever was one. This ship has very good speed and very good range... but its two mid-slots somewhat limit it in terms of tactics (see: it would make for a poor brawler) Retribution: Basically this ship is a VERY beefy version of a Navy Slicer with significantly less speed. It has the same problems as the Slicer does; "poor" slot layout for brawling (even though its stats and bonuses point it towards that). Generally, this ship excels in small to medium-sized gangs (at close to medium range) that can make use of the Retribution's beefiness, range, and relatively good damage. Crusader: When it comes to Interceptors, this ship is a bit of a "red-headed stepchild." It doesn't have the Warp Disruption range bonus like its brother the Malediction, nor can it tank as well... but it makes up for that with higher damage. Then again... damage is kinda useless as an interceptor unless your job is to kill OTHER interceptors. Navy Hookbill: This is a weird ship. It has a slot layout that makes it look like it can tank like nothing else... but it has limited CPU and PG. This doesn't mean it is useless though. You just have to get creative. I have seen people armor tank it and load up on Stasis Webifiers so it can do "scram-kiting**" (see: "close range" kiting). Hawk: Take the restrictions of the Hookbill and remove them. Cut the speed down by a large margin. The Hawk is a nasty ship in the right hands. Harpy: I do not have too much experience with Harpies... but I have seen some nasty fits that use extreme range (for a frigate) to great effect. Crow/Raptor: Same as the Harpy. Not terribly familiar with these ships. **Kiting: the act of staying just outside of an enemy's engagement envelope while staying within yours. It generally requires some form of range control, be it speed or use of Warp Scrambler, Stasis Web, and Afterburner. So it would be a good idea just to fly T1 destroyers/frigates until I'm more familiar with game mechanics? Do T1 frigs and dessies get used for reasons other than super low cost, and how do big is the gap between them and their T2 equivalents?
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
8684
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Posted - 2015.09.18 05:24:16 -
[5] - Quote
Josiah Meza wrote:So it would be a good idea just to fly T1 destroyers/frigates until I'm more familiar with game mechanics? Do T1 frigs and dessies get used for reasons other than super low cost, and how do big is the gap between them and their T2 equivalents? My rule of thumb is this: fly with a certain ship (or class of ships) until you are comfortable using them. Then advance.
Tech 2 ships are generally "specializations" of Tech 1 ships with moderate performance increases in certain areas (depending on the general specialty) and less performance in others.
Some examples: - Tech 2 Assault Frigates can take more and dish out more damage than Tech 1 Frigates... but are generally slower and have more restrictive CPU and PG.
- Tech 2 Interceptors are very fast, very nimble, and have bonuses that make it easier to use a Warp Disruptor. However they are paper thin compared to Tech 1 Frigates.
Faction Frigates are more or less straight upgrades of Tech 1 ships... but only nominally. They generally have 50% more HP, deal a little more damage, and are a little faster. But you pay a lot more for that performance increase (which insurance won't cover).
Destroyers are a different class of their own. They excel at chewing up frigates and, in enough numbers, anything larger than them. But they lack speed and have about the same tank as a very beefy Tech 1 Frigate (or lightly tanked Tech 2 Frigate).
All this said... it is very possible for Tech 1 Frigates to hold their own against any of the above. You just have to fit it properly and plan around taking on certain ships in certain situations. Many veterans, no matter how rich, continually use Tech 1 Frigates well into their EVE careers.
How did you Veterans start?
The Skillpoint System and You
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Sabriz Adoudel
Black Hydra Consortium.
5353
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Posted - 2015.09.18 06:06:02 -
[6] - Quote
Just on the 'when to fly larger ships' implied question.
If you want to fly larger ships than frigates, AND you can afford to lose them, feel free to experiment. Cruisers have many strengths frigates do not have - they also have different weaknesses.
Destroyers are a weak ship class in general but they are extremely strong at two things: suicide ganking (attacking another player illegally in highsec, knowing full well that you will lose your ship) and PVP engagements where your job is to kill frigates. I don't recommend destroyers in general though.
My advice is to spend as long in T1 frigates as you enjoy flying them. If that's a while, train for the tech 2 ones as well. Otherwise, look into cruisers as a next port of call.
In either case, don't undock in a 20m cruiser or a 30m tech 2 frigate unless losing it would be at most a moderate setback. Don't be 'that idiot' that spends their first 15 million on a failfit cruiser and loses it by doing something really dumb - but if you have 50m, then losing 15m isn't crippling.
I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
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Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
125
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Posted - 2015.09.18 08:18:21 -
[7] - Quote
Frigate pvp is as real as it gets, just because it's best to use as a new player (due to skills) that doesn't somehow mean that seasoned players thus automatically "move on" to something bigger. There's lots and lots of game mechanics at work to make sure that bigger isn't necessarily better and even in big boy fleets they still need frigates for specific roles so if you enjoy the speedy nature of frigate combat then you'll be just fine.
With that said: using bling gear (be it ships or modules) in and of itself doesn't somehow grant you wins, it's not "I have more purples than you so I win", there is no "must fly T2 in order to succeed". T2 ships tend to be specialised versions which means that they might work really well in one situation but worse than the T1 equivalent in another. Faction ships are VERY expensive and while they can be awesome it doesn't somehow mean that you'll do better in them.
A good example is the Navy Slicer. People will tell you it's an amazing ship blahblahblahblah but they "forget" to tell you that it requires really good piloting and lots of skill points in order to not suck out and, lets be honest, most people aren't that good. As a newbie you won't have the understanding and experience to make it happen so If you buy 10 slicers you'll lose all 10 JUST as fast, if not faster, than the T1 version (Executioner). In fact the Executioner is an awesome PVP ship and will be easier to use, more forgiving on low skill points and better in many circumstances than the slicer or even its T2 variant (Crusader).
This goes for all T1 frigs really, all 4 factions have really good pvp frigates, cheap as hell (many you even get for free from the career tutorial), easy to fit and use and actually quite strong. T2/faction versions CAN do better, in the right situation, but if you lack the skills & understanding to make them work then they're just a more expensive liability. They can make good pilots better, but they don't make bad or inexperienced pilots good.
I'd not waste training time on T2 ships for now (unless they give you a tactical option you really want to aim for) nor would I waste money on faction ships. It won't help you and having a killboard full of navy slicer losses is just going to look awkward. |
Ovv Topik
Hoplite Brigade Hashashin Cartel
750
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Posted - 2015.09.18 10:57:25 -
[8] - Quote
Slicer and Hookbill are both solid choices and quicker to skill into than the T2's.
Slicer is a bit of a 1 trick pony because of the 2 mid slots. Disrupter/MWD is the only real option for solo.
The Hookbill on the other hand has 5 mids so is very versatile. Twin web, or TD or even ECM are all viable.
But I thoroughly recommend taking your first steps in a T1 Frig. Much cheaper, and typically maybe around 80-90% as capable as the faction variant.
Twin web Kestrel is the easiest ship to fly in the game.
Condor V nimble kiter flown just like the Slicer.
And check out Sutonia's vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o for inspiration.
o7
"Nicknack, I'm in a shoe in space, on my computer, in my house, with a cup of coffee, in't that something." - Fly Safe PopPaddi. o7
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
789
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Posted - 2015.09.18 23:25:44 -
[9] - Quote
Josiah Meza wrote: considering everyone says 'train/fly small ships when you're new so you don't overstep yourself, rush into big ships and fail I just wanted to add to the excellent posts so far by pointing out that in Eve bigger is not better it's just different. There is no ship progression in the sense that you are flying frigate now only because you don't have the skill points for capital ships. People fly small and medium ships because they are fun and as an added bonus easily replaceable. There are plenty of PvPers that have been playing this game for years and almost never sit in anything bigger than a cruiser.
So don't look at small ships like a stepping stone to larger ones. Some people have even made comments hinting that the fun factor of ships in Eve is inversely proportional to it's size.
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Josiah Meza
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2015.09.19 03:33:09 -
[10] - Quote
Ok, considering this I'm off to try out a twin web merlin, thanks for the advice! |
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Trevor Dalech
We pooped on your lawn Resonance.
157
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Posted - 2015.09.19 06:13:18 -
[11] - Quote
You seem to be looking at amarr laser ships, and caldari missile/rocket ships. I assume this is because you have some basic skill in both? In that case I would like to suggest an addition to the list of ships you are considering: the vengeance.
The vengeance is a bit of an unusual mix, it is an amarr T2 assault frigate with a missiles/rockets bonus. It is not hard to fit, can fit an incredibly good armour tank (I once took on two vexor cruisers in a single vengeance) and with 3 mid slots it can fit web scram and prop and make a great brawler or edge of scram kiter. |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
127
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Posted - 2015.09.19 08:21:28 -
[12] - Quote
Trevor Dalech wrote:You seem to be looking at amarr laser ships, and caldari missile/rocket ships. I assume this is because you have some basic skill in both? In that case I would like to suggest an addition to the list of ships you are considering: the vengeance.
The vengeance is a bit of an unusual mix, it is an amarr T2 assault frigate with a missiles/rockets bonus. It is not hard to fit, can fit an incredibly good armour tank (I once took on two vexor cruisers in a single vengeance) and with 3 mid slots it can fit web scram and prop and make a great brawler or edge of scram kiter.
It's also very VERY limited in use. Quite slow so it can't dictate whether or not a fight will be happening and if so HOW it will be happening. |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
127
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Posted - 2015.09.19 08:25:35 -
[13] - Quote
Josiah Meza wrote:Ok, considering this I'm off to try out a twin web merlin, thanks for the advice!
Go watch these to get an idea:
Kestrel Executioner PVP tactics
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
5372
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Posted - 2015.09.20 05:31:46 -
[14] - Quote
I have 2 days left on Assault Frigates 5.
I finally decided to train it to 5 after sitting in the same ship for a few years now: a Blaster Harpy. [Ya, you are supposed to fit rails, but its large tank lends itself well for in-your-face blasters with a web and Void.]
It will be the second T2 ship skill I've trained to 5 (first was Exhumers), and I've been around over 6 years. |
Cara Forelli
Green Skull LLC
1252
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Posted - 2015.09.20 15:23:53 -
[15] - Quote
I second the idea of starting with T1 ships. However, I want to point out that you left my favorite assault frigate off your list (the vengeance). It is IMO the best of the bunch because of it's amazing tank and versatility. It can hold its own against other frigates but is also a great heavy tackle ship because it can very easily dispatch drones with rockets, which makes it ideal for getting under the guns of big ships and holding them there.
Adventures
New player with questions? Join my public channel in game: House Forelli
Titan's Lament
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Sabriz Adoudel
Black Hydra Consortium.
5362
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Posted - 2015.09.21 00:04:43 -
[16] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:I have 2 days left on Assault Frigates 5.
I finally decided to train it to 5 after sitting in the same ship for a few years now: a Blaster Harpy. [Ya, you are supposed to fit rails, but its large tank lends itself well for in-your-face blasters with a web and Void.]
It will be the second T2 ship skill I've trained to 5 (first was Exhumers), and I've been around over 6 years.
You don't have Logistics 5?
It reduces capacitor use by 37.5% compared to Logi 4.
I actually have a fair number of tech 2 ship skills trained to 5 - Marauders, Logistics, Recons, and a few others.
I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1733
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Posted - 2015.09.21 01:08:26 -
[17] - Quote
recon 5 was the first, and logi was the second. AF/Interceptors were mostly later on for the sake of completeness. EAF 5 was rather recent, but they are also rather new ships, and have very strong bonuses. On my alt who has maxed out scanning stuff, and good ewar skills, I think I did recon and cov ops 5 rather early.
as far as the frigs go, there are many good ones and many conditions that can create victory or defeat. Good Ceptor pilots are pretty much always in demand, and as I said earlier EAFs have very big bonuses, so they can be very useful in a gang. Learning with a mix of t1 frigs and faction frigs is probably a decent way to go as isk losses should be rather minimal. With assault frigs my biggest worry is speed.
and maybe take a look at tech 3 destroyers. they are very strong, use many similar skills to frigs, and get a big insurance payout.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Agent Grzzly
New Order Logistics CODE.
4
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Posted - 2015.09.21 03:05:34 -
[18] - Quote
A rocket hawk with 2 ancillary shield boosters is a tough nut to crack, but you have to use the boosters properly, involves timing.
PSA Ventures are Illegal in Highsec. High sec is player-owned space now. See www.MinerBumping.com
Kugutsumen.
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Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1519
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Posted - 2015.09.21 04:57:03 -
[19] - Quote
There are of course also Pirate Frigates such as the Gamur, Daredevil, Dramiel and Worm.
These have specific uses (such as burner missions) and are relatively easy to qualify for but hard to fly well. They are expensive so its not really a good idea to get into them too early. |
Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
657
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Posted - 2015.09.21 06:37:03 -
[20] - Quote
Welcome to Svipuls online! Don't waste time with those pesky/bad assault frigates. Train into a svipul, and win EVE. |
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Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
142
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Posted - 2015.09.21 07:20:36 -
[21] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Welcome to Svipuls online! Don't waste time with those pesky/bad assault frigates. Train into a svipul, and win EVE.
That is pretty much the reason I don't recommend any newbie to train for AF, T3D. For PVE they're are a side grade (at best) anyway and for PVP they're very limited unless you have a gang, RR, ECM or all 3 to back you up. |
Johnny Riko
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
22
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Posted - 2015.09.22 03:30:58 -
[22] - Quote
Go for interceptors. Assault frigates are the most redundant ships in the game.
I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
662
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Posted - 2015.09.22 03:42:38 -
[23] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Welcome to Svipuls online! Don't waste time with those pesky/bad assault frigates. Train into a svipul, and win EVE. That is pretty much the reason I don't recommend any newbie to train for AF, T3D. For PVE they're are a side grade (at best) anyway and for PVP they're very limited unless you have a gang, RR, ECM or all 3 to back you up.
Svipuls are far superior for fleet doctrines also. The standard shield fleet fit with dual MSE and an invuln gets 30k+ EHP in defense mode with links, and has more DPS than blaster harpies/enyos.
The only decent AF comp is rail harpies, other than that they're useless. |
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
126
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Posted - 2015.09.22 03:48:03 -
[24] - Quote
So what are the odds they'll be nerfed by the time my 6 month skill plan gets me within spitting distance of a t3 destroyer? |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1523
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Posted - 2015.09.22 04:01:14 -
[25] - Quote
Zihao wrote:So what are the odds they'll be nerfed by the time my 6 month skill plan gets me within spitting distance of a t3 destroyer?
lol
learn the EVE cycle
Step 1) CCP introduces something useful that has good stats and obvious applications Step 2) loads of players start to train this new thing because even 5% better is still better and worth using Step 3) the new thing makes it into fleet doctrines Step 4) other players/alliances who have the wrong build/playerbase to use this new thing complain its OP on forums Step 5) CPP nerf the new thing to the extent that it is now useless |
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
126
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Posted - 2015.09.22 04:11:31 -
[26] - Quote
Stick to t1 it is then. |
Johnny Riko
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
22
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Posted - 2015.09.22 12:14:54 -
[27] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:Zihao wrote:So what are the odds they'll be nerfed by the time my 6 month skill plan gets me within spitting distance of a t3 destroyer? lol learn the EVE cycle Step 1) CCP introduces something useful that has good stats and obvious applications Step 2) loads of players start to train this new thing because even 5% better is still better and worth using Step 3) the new thing makes it into fleet doctrines Step 4) other players/alliances who have the wrong build/playerbase to use this new thing complain its OP on forums Step 5) CPP nerf the new thing to the extent that it is now useless
Svipuls are currently being used by every man and his dog in PVP. They have killed the frigate meta and made an entire class of ship completely worthless.
I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
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