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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
letstrade onthemarket
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.09.21 11:35:01 -
[1] - Quote
hi
i dont know if others players saw this too, but sometimes when i baught all the line of the sell orders items of a player , it is instantly and automatically reoloaded ...
i can do it 3 or 4 times, i doesnt stop and it is physically impossible to do it by hand . i saw this maybe 5 or 6 times in 18 months .
is there a way i missed fo this option ? or is it an npc player ? ( i checked everytime the pilot and it looked human )
if someone can explain me this ...
thanks |
Natalie en Thielles
Dirty Butt Pirates
0
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Posted - 2015.09.21 18:39:54 -
[2] - Quote
There are often other players constantly updating their own orders. Some of them may have more than one sell order for the same item allowing them to change their orders more frequently.
You can use programs to help make it easier. Some of these are Elinor, Eve Mentat, and Evernus.
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ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1197
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Posted - 2015.09.22 02:47:04 -
[3] - Quote
Moved to Market Discussions.
ISD Decoy
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1091
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Posted - 2015.09.22 03:13:31 -
[4] - Quote
letstrade onthemarket wrote:hi
i dont know if others players saw this too, but sometimes when i baught all the line of the sell orders items of a player , it is instantly and automatically reoloaded ...
i can do it 3 or 4 times, i doesnt stop and it is physically impossible to do it by hand . i saw this maybe 5 or 6 times in 18 months .
is there a way i missed fo this option ? or is it an npc player ? ( i checked everytime the pilot and it looked human )
if someone can explain me this ...
thanks It's much more likely that you are buying units from a different order.
You may be clicking on one order and attempting to buy all the units from it, but the market will ignore that and take units from the top order regardless.
If you are clicking on the wrong order and attempting to clear it out, while actually taking units from a different order, it will appear as if the order you are clicking on will not die.
Alternatively, you may be buying from an NPC order which automatically refreshes. But those orders can be identified by the fact they have a duration over 90 days, which player orders cannot have. |
Dethmourne Silvermane
Mare Crisium Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
57
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Posted - 2015.09.22 05:13:59 -
[5] - Quote
Don't forget that weird thing where orders may have expired (and be unlisted) but haven't yet been through database cleanup and so you can end up buying from an expired order that happens to be the cheapest and isn't visible. I'm not sure this happens anymore, but it used to be a thing.
Interested Party (TM)
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letstrade onthemarket
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.09.22 14:53:15 -
[6] - Quote
Natalie en Thielles wrote:There are often other players constantly updating their own orders. Some of them may have more than one sell order for the same item allowing them to change their orders more frequently.
You can use programs to help make it easier. Some of these are Elinor, Eve Mentat, and Evernus.
i dont think it is this, reloaded is instantly ( zero delay ) after i baught all the orders from the line and it cant be done by a pilot and all i know from the tool you spoke about dont do that
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letstrade onthemarket
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.09.22 14:57:04 -
[7] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:letstrade onthemarket wrote:hi
i dont know if others players saw this too, but sometimes when i baught all the line of the sell orders items of a player , it is instantly and automatically reoloaded ...
i can do it 3 or 4 times, i doesnt stop and it is physically impossible to do it by hand . i saw this maybe 5 or 6 times in 18 months .
is there a way i missed fo this option ? or is it an npc player ? ( i checked everytime the pilot and it looked human )
if someone can explain me this ...
thanks It's much more likely that you are buying units from a different order. You may be clicking on one order and attempting to buy all the units from it, but the market will ignore that and take units from the top order regardless. If you are clicking on the wrong order and attempting to clear it out, while actually taking units from a different order, it will appear as if the order you are clicking on will not die. Alternatively, you may be buying from an NPC order which automatically refreshes. But those orders can be identified by the fact they have a duration over 90 days, which player orders cannot have.
i thought it could be this but , i organized the sell orders by price and baught second or third sell order in the list to be sure it wasnt the same trader after this, evry time i baught all the orders from the cheaper line, it s reloaded instantly ... i can say too i m trading from 30 months and i just saw this 5 or 6 times ... i dont know how it is possible |
letstrade onthemarket
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.09.22 15:00:50 -
[8] - Quote
Dethmourne Silvermane wrote:Don't forget that weird thing where orders may have expired (and be unlisted) but haven't yet been through database cleanup and so you can end up buying from an expired order that happens to be the cheapest and isn't visible. I'm not sure this happens anymore, but it used to be a thing.
i checked this too, every time i baught all the orders from this automatic line, i recepted items in my wallet so itsnt a update's trouble
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
5381
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Posted - 2015.09.22 17:23:50 -
[9] - Quote
letstrade onthemarket wrote:i thought it could be this but , i organized the sell orders by price and baught second or third sell order in the list to be sure it wasnt the same trader after this, evry time i baught all the orders from the cheaper line, it s reloaded instantly ... i can say too i m trading from 30 months and i just saw this 5 or 6 times ... i dont know how it is possible You cannot choose which order to buy from or sell to!
You ALWAYS buy from the lowest priced sell order, and sell to the highest priced buy order.
You can only choose which station. |
Thoraemond
Far Ranger
198
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Posted - 2015.09.23 00:54:54 -
[10] - Quote
letstrade onthemarket wrote:Dethmourne Silvermane wrote:Don't forget that weird thing where orders may have expired (and be unlisted) but haven't yet been through database cleanup and so you can end up buying from an expired order that happens to be the cheapest and isn't visible. I'm not sure this happens anymore, but it used to be a thing. i checked this too, every time i baught all the orders from this automatic line, i recepted items in my wallet so itsnt a update's trouble
Assuming there's no human error (e.g., filters on the order displayed you've forgotten about, or the like), Dethmourne's seems like the most likely explanation to me, based on my own experience with similar issues.
You say you checked this, but I am not sure how you could check for this, as a user, since the source of the problem is something that you can neither see nor (directly) interact with.
For example, if the lowest-price Sell Order on the market is for a price of 100 with 10 units, and there is an older expired order also priced at 100 but with 2000 units (which order is still in the database and matchable, but no longer displayed in-game), then it might look like you're choosing to buy from the 10-unit order, but you're actually buying from the 2000-unit order, and the 10 unit order is not being matched. The seller in your Wallet will be the pilot or corporation posting the 2000-unit order.
Alternatively, there are also a few items that are sold from NPC orders (with a duration of approximately 365 days, rather than the 90-day maximum for player orders), and NPC orders are immediately replenished. These are not player orders, though. Because you're experienced, I'm guessing you've ruled this out.
GÇó Graph re Market Order Broker Fees GÇó Diagram re Skills for Remote Trading GÇó
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letstrade onthemarket
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.09.23 12:11:56 -
[11] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:letstrade onthemarket wrote:i thought it could be this but , i organized the sell orders by price and baught second or third sell order in the list to be sure it wasnt the same trader after this, evry time i baught all the orders from the cheaper line, it s reloaded instantly ... i can say too i m trading from 30 months and i just saw this 5 or 6 times ... i dont know how it is possible You cannot choose which order to buy from or sell to!You ALWAYS buy from the lowest priced available sell order, and sell to the highest priced available buy order. You can only choose which station when buying. If you try to buy from a higher priced seller, you only end-up paying the lowest priced seller more ISK. This is how a brokerage market works.
absolutly !
the orders i spoke about are of course the lowest ones ! it happened to me when i baught my stuff for manufacture ( salvage items in fact) and i pointed the lowest ones, lines by lines : it the case i spoke about , when i baught all the items of this lowest line ( 7 items for example) it was instantly reloaded several times maybe 5 , 6 times or more and sometimes unlimitless unitl i could buy the next items and checked it wasnt the same pilot
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letstrade onthemarket
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.09.23 12:18:51 -
[12] - Quote
Thoraemond wrote:letstrade onthemarket wrote:Dethmourne Silvermane wrote:Don't forget that weird thing where orders may have expired (and be unlisted) but haven't yet been through database cleanup and so you can end up buying from an expired order that happens to be the cheapest and isn't visible. I'm not sure this happens anymore, but it used to be a thing. i checked this too, every time i baught all the orders from this automatic line, i recepted items in my wallet so itsnt a update's trouble Assuming there's no human error (e.g., filters on the order displayed you've forgotten about, or the like), Dethmourne's seems like the most likely explanation to me, based on my own experience with similar issues. You say you checked this, but I am not sure how you could check for this, as a user, since the source of the problem is something that you can neither see nor (directly) interact with. For example, if the lowest-price Sell Order on the market is for a price of 100 with 10 units, and there is an older expired order also priced at 100 but with 2000 units (which order is still in the database and matchable, but no longer displayed in-game), then it might look like you're choosing to buy from the 10-unit order, but you're actually buying from the 2000-unit order, and the 10 unit order is not being matched. The seller in your Wallet will be the pilot or corporation posting the 2000-unit order. Alternatively, there are also a few items that are sold from NPC orders (with a duration of approximately 365 days, rather than the 90-day maximum for player orders), and NPC orders are immediately replenished. These are not player orders, though. Because you're experienced, I'm guessing you've ruled this out.
maybe you are right, but i m not sure to understand all you said ... if you could make me an example of this , i ll pay for it, of course ,it would help me cause i d like to understand
for the npc orders, i dont think so , unless you cant see the difference in the journal after ( the pilots who made this had an employement's history with differents corp and birth's date )
anyway, thanks for yours explanations i have to think about |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Create Alliance
681
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Posted - 2015.09.23 14:17:04 -
[13] - Quote
This is a mock screenshot I have made to try and explain it.
The top order is expired and will not display on the market screen for players, but it is not actually removed from the market until the next downtime, so it can still be purchased from with buy orders.
http://i.imgur.com/NSbRwhO.png
WTS ME 10 TE 20 BPOs & BPO Packs
WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
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letstrade onthemarket
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.09.23 15:33:23 -
[14] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:This is a mock screenshot I have made to try and explain it. The top order is expired and will not display on the market screen for players, but it is not actually removed from the market until the next downtime, so it can still be purchased from with buy orders. http://i.imgur.com/NSbRwhO.png
thanks for your explanation but itsnt this case : time expiration isnt over for this line of orders and when you buy it , your wallet is incremented ( i checked this ) but thanks |
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
79
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Posted - 2015.09.23 15:46:32 -
[15] - Quote
Are there multiple orders listed at the same price? You might be selecting the "top" order but the items come from the 2nd or 3rd order because they were put up first |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Create Alliance
681
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Posted - 2015.09.23 15:52:46 -
[16] - Quote
The order that you are actually buying from has expired and is invisible. Even if you click a different order you are still buying from the invisible one.
Do me a favour and buy one item from the order I've marked with a red arrow and box in the following screenshot.
http://i.imgur.com/hGwdt1H.png
Eifyr and Co. 'Alchemist' Gas Harvesting GH-801
Then take a screenshot of your market window and post it here.
WTS ME 10 TE 20 BPOs & BPO Packs
WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
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Jdestars
Stars Research systems Incorporation
29
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Posted - 2015.09.24 11:45:21 -
[17] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:This is a mock screenshot I have made to try and explain it. The top order is expired and will not display on the market screen for players, but it is not actually removed from the market until the next downtime, so it can still be purchased from with buy orders. http://i.imgur.com/NSbRwhO.png
dont forget this point when you check a item price windows its database request .. the result are not refresh
and result are store in your side client game .. some time , error with refresh cach are occured |
letstrade onthemarket
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.09.25 06:34:12 -
[18] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote:Are there multiple orders listed at the same price? You might be selecting the "top" order but the items come from the 2nd or 3rd order because they were put up first done of course, lines are selected by prices lowest to hightest |
letstrade onthemarket
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.09.25 06:41:20 -
[19] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:The order that you are actually buying from has expired and is invisible. Even if you click a different order you are still buying from the invisible one. Do me a favour and buy one item from the order I've marked with a red arrow and box in the following screenshot. http://i.imgur.com/hGwdt1H.png Eifyr and Co. 'Alchemist' Gas Harvesting GH-801 Then take a screenshot of your market window and post it here.
i did ( first i needed to buy first line , the lowest one it has one item left ) and nothing hapened, when i baught it, number of items is going down .. |
letstrade onthemarket
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.09.25 06:43:59 -
[20] - Quote
Jdestars wrote:Elizabeth Norn wrote:This is a mock screenshot I have made to try and explain it. The top order is expired and will not display on the market screen for players, but it is not actually removed from the market until the next downtime, so it can still be purchased from with buy orders. http://i.imgur.com/NSbRwhO.png dont forget this point when you check a item price windows its database request .. the result are not refresh and result are store in your side client game .. some time , error with refresh cach are occured
i perfecly know this ,i had to wait few seconds or to buy another one to refresh but itsnt the point : when i buy all the items of the lowest line, when it refresh there is still the same numbers of items and if i buy its again my wallet is incremented |
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Miss Credits
Stationdwellers United
0
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Posted - 2015.09.25 09:58:09 -
[21] - Quote
Are you sorting it to have the lowest value item at the bottom or at the top? You know, since you are buying from the lowest -line- not lowest -price-.. |
letstrade onthemarket
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.09.25 16:42:42 -
[22] - Quote
Miss Credits wrote:Are you sorting it to have the lowest value item at the bottom or at the top? You know, since you are buying from the lowest -line- not lowest -price-..
yes i did , as you already do when you want to buy , to have lowest prices |
letstrade onthemarket
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.09.30 10:36:10 -
[23] - Quote
after all the discussions i had wiht differents pilots , i didnt find any good explanation to this
for me there is two solutions : this an option id dont know or this a cheat made with a prog
so i will ask to ccp , i kept all the logs of this , and i will post their reply here .
thanks for everybody for their time |
Trix Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
1
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Posted - 2015.09.30 14:45:13 -
[24] - Quote
This is an "simplistic image" that make itself appear from the way the market works.
If you just read everyone and sum up what they are saying, they just told you exactly what is happening.
Between people manually refilling orders by modification or stock, to the system the market chooses from what order to get what you buy from, all those working in their situations or mixed up gives you the illusion that you see what you claim but you dont.
From the system side, they said that you buy from the sell orders the market itself chooses by its rules. Not even if you go and click buy on the order you are guaranteed to by from that order. For example, if you try to buy from an order in a station and there is cheaper orders in the same station, you will buy from the cheaper order by a higer price they asked. That is something novus traders get caught always. They set up to buy out people, and start buying from the more expensive order and dont see it change, not noticing that the stock is comming from another order.
Another thing people do is set up multiple orders of an item, like 10, 15, 10000. When they sell the 10 ones, and see the 15 ones are not going, they change the 10000 order to 10. That is like having a "stock already shipped" expecting to sell it when it is more convenient. This is also done in buy orders. You set up orders to buy at reasonable prices and other orders to buy at miserable prices like 1 isk. You leave that there to capitalize on "just a game folks" selling anything anywhere, and if you really need to get the product, you change the order to a reasonable price.
The average experienced trader may have billions of ISK in sell and buy orders set up to market prices or insanely over/under priced to be changed to react the market. That is like having your ship aligned to the station while mining, or having your D-Scan in W-Space.
Carnal rule of gun trade: Never pick up a gun and join the costumers.
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letstrade onthemarket
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.09.30 15:57:27 -
[25] - Quote
Trix Andrard wrote:This is an "simplistic image" that make itself appear from the way the market works.
If you just read everyone and sum up what they are saying, they just told you exactly what is happening.
Between people manually refilling orders by modification or stock, to the system the market chooses from what order to get what you buy from, all those working in their situations or mixed up gives you the illusion that you see what you claim but you dont.
From the system side, they said that you buy from the sell orders the market itself chooses by its rules. Not even if you go and click buy on the order you are guaranteed to by from that order. For example, if you try to buy from an order in a station and there is cheaper orders in the same station, you will buy from the cheaper order by a higer price they asked. That is something novus traders get caught always. They set up to buy out people, and start buying from the more expensive order and dont see it change, not noticing that the stock is comming from another order.
Another thing people do is set up multiple orders of an item, like 10, 15, 10000. When they sell the 10 ones, and see the 15 ones are not going, they change the 10000 order to 10. That is like having a "stock already shipped" expecting to sell it when it is more convenient. This is also done in buy orders. You set up orders to buy at reasonable prices and other orders to buy at miserable prices like 1 isk. You leave that there to capitalize on "just a game folks" selling anything anywhere, and if you really need to get the product, you change the order to a reasonable price.
The average experienced trader may have billions of ISK in sell and buy orders set up to market prices or insanely over/under priced to be changed to react the market. That is like having your ship aligned to the station while mining, or having your D-Scan in W-Space.
thanks for yours explanations but it doesnt seems like what i saw , but maybe i m wrong ( my english isnt perfect i m not sure to understand perfectly ) or maybe i bad explained myself too :
- when i buy i always manage sell orders from lowest to higter - i know you cant choice the items you buy , you automaticly buy the lowest ones - i baught all this of this lowest line , there where 7 in this case and , i did it 6 times before it goes to zero and i could buy the next line - i recepted 42 items in my wallet , so it wasnt a "mecanic's "update" trouble - i did all this in 10 second so each time there was less than 1.5 second for the pilot to manage new orders : it is impossible for an human - the next lowest orders wasnt the same pilot -the pilot i baught to wasnt an npc ( i checked is hystory and killboard ) - i m not a new trader i do this from 3 years and i have more 2 500+ orders online , but i can imagine i missed something , we learn everyday - i saw this only 6 times in 30 months and this last times i kept screenshot and logs
i posted to ccp and wait for a reply
i will post the result here for this that are interested
thanks
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Railroad Cop
Trademarque Alternate Allegiance
2
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Posted - 2015.10.19 02:15:11 -
[26] - Quote
I have just run into this as well.
I'm seeding a fairly empty market.
I've made 1mil HAM's. I go to put up a sell order. I see someone has a sell order for the same Item. They only have 1000 units and they are well under market / manufature price.
So i think oh ok - i'll buy these up then re-list them when i put up my order.
I select the order from the market menu. I enter in 1000 units, I hit buy. Isk leaves my wallet, I get the 1000 units of HAM from that seller.
The sell order - from the same seller - for 1000 units of HAM's are still on the market.
Maybe i did not do it properly? I did it again - 3 more times. I now have 4000 units of HAM's purchased from the same person - whom has a single order on the market for 1000 units.
It does not look like the order is being re-listed - it never disappears.
I'd like to clean out this guy that's selling that item for way under market / manufacturing price... but i appear unable to?
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Samsara Toldya
Academy of Contradictory Behaviour
328
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Posted - 2015.10.19 09:46:52 -
[27] - Quote
Railroad Cop wrote:It does not look like the order is being re-listed - it never disappears.
You should see the time till order expires changing.
Say: This sell order for 1000 HAM had 35 days, 8 hours, 22 minutes left You buy 1000 HAM from this sell order
Refreshed market shows:
a) 1000 HAM with 35 days, 8 hours, 21 minutes left -> a1) you didn't buy from this sell order -> a2) the database is buggy
b) 1000 HAM with 89 days, 23 hours, 59 minutes left -> b1) someone instantly made a new sell order with same amount/price -> b2) something instantly made a new sell order with same amount/price
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Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Create Alliance
713
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Posted - 2015.10.19 13:22:01 -
[28] - Quote
Railroad Cop wrote:I have just run into this as well.
Reread this thread and maybe this one: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6099897#post6099897
It's been explained so many times before.
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WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
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TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
352
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Posted - 2015.10.27 07:10:55 -
[29] - Quote
Dethmourne Silvermane wrote:Don't forget that weird thing where orders may have expired (and be unlisted) but haven't yet been through database cleanup and so you can end up buying from an expired order that happens to be the cheapest and isn't visible. I'm not sure this happens anymore, but it used to be a thing.
Its still going on.
"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X
"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron
-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
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TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
352
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Posted - 2015.10.27 07:17:18 -
[30] - Quote
Railroad Cop wrote:I have just run into this as well.
I'm seeding a fairly empty market.
I've made 1mil HAM's. I go to put up a sell order. I see someone has a sell order for the same Item. They only have 1000 units and they are well under market / manufature price.
So i think oh ok - i'll buy these up then re-list them when i put up my order.
I select the order from the market menu. I enter in 1000 units, I hit buy. Isk leaves my wallet, I get the 1000 units of HAM from that seller.
The sell order - from the same seller - for 1000 units of HAM's are still on the market.
Maybe i did not do it properly? I did it again - 3 more times. I now have 4000 units of HAM's purchased from the same person - whom has a single order on the market for 1000 units.
It does not look like the order is being re-listed - it never disappears.
I'd like to clean out this guy that's selling that item for way under market / manufacturing price... but i appear unable to?
Its simple, someone has an order with at least 4001 pieces listed in that market, and it expired that day, but downtime was not yet hit, so the order is still there until downtime hits and then the order is removed from the market.
"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X
"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron
-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
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