Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 .. 12 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26367
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 11:48:54 -
[121] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:It's the principle. What principle? The only ones who are even remotely negatively affected by this are characters made in somewhere in the 15GÇô21 day span preceding the patch, who might conceivably come out with less total SP than they'd had under the new system. For anyone else, it has no effect or impact on them.
Quote:You can look at it the other way, if it's such a small amount of SP, then what's the problem in reimbursing everyone? Nothing is removed. There is nothing to reimburse, especially not to everyone.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Salvos Rhoska
1505
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 12:00:40 -
[122] - Quote
I agree with OP.
Im for 350k addition to all existing EVE accounts at the point of change (regardless of whether they are subbed at that point).
Not just because Ill take any SP I can get, but because its fair to everyone.
Furthermore the kind of community hype even this small SP addition to existing accounts would generate helps source back some lost players (SP whores that we all are).
The net SP inflation across EVE is insignificant, and since all characters woyld benefit from it equally, it merely begningly raises the status quo of everyone equally, as well as providing an opportunity for some small diversification/specialisation which prompts more player created content.
Its win/win/win really, for everyone involved.
PvE v PvP
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26367
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 12:13:12 -
[123] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:350k SP to everyone, hurts no one. Arbitrary handouts for no reason hurts everyone with the precedent it sets.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
3215
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 12:30:52 -
[124] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Command ships... Stfu with your two weeks. Haha, holy ****, command ships. all that training and they aren't even good. |
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
992
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 12:35:42 -
[125] - Quote
I say anyone under 5 mil SP gets the free SP!
Not today spaghetti.
|
Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
254
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 12:36:29 -
[126] - Quote
Go back to Starship Troopers. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12487
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 12:37:51 -
[127] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:Amazed at the amount of entitled, butthurt people that this change has revealed...
Jealousy at its best.
but but but, CCP is giving new characers like 7-10 DAYS more SP.
I paid for my 1st 7 days of SP (no trial crap here) and the sub cost was 15 bucks for a month. CCP is not giving new characters 1/4th of a month for FREE. Therefore, I demand CCP reimburse me the $3.75 worth of game time they are basically stealing from me to give to new players!
Also, F y'all sarcasm meters, I'm for real. Now, did someone see where I laid my bottle of Xanax, I think I may need it because of all this injustice.
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12487
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 12:40:27 -
[128] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:350k SP to everyone, hurts no one. Arbitrary handouts for no reason hurts everyone with the precedent it sets.
+1
This is why everyone cries for free SP if something happens to the server, because CCP was trying to be nice that one time and gave everyone free SP,.
Now it's some kind on entitlement people expect despite the fact that everyone here agrees to the EULA and the EULA says CCP doesn't owe us anything even when the servers die for a time.
|
Memphis Baas
603
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 12:41:49 -
[129] - Quote
You know what, it's such a minuscule amount of points that it probably doesn't even matter.
They can probably make it "free 350k skillpoints to all ACTIVE accounts" and maybe get a few more people to subscribe for a month. Other MMO's run "double xp weekends" or "double bounty weekends" as promotions all the time.
Newbies created under this promotion would get the 350k the newbies start with under the new system, plus 350k that everybody gets as a limited time promotion. That way they feel even better about trying out the game. |
Salvos Rhoska
1505
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 12:41:53 -
[130] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:350k SP to everyone, hurts no one. Arbitrary handouts for no reason hurts everyone with the precedent it sets. Precedent: The existing precedent is already being broken. The one which governed all generated accounts uptil now. The breach of the existing precedent is harmonized by applying the same boost equally throughout the entirety of the character base. The precedent of a common status quo remains intact, and the only remaining breached precedent is that of adding SP to the pool in the first place (as mitigated by the above, since everyone would get it).
Arbitrarity: The increase for new characters is not arbitrary (obviously) . The function and purpose is evidently in providing more options for players. However, if this is not added to all characters, it becomes arbitrary from the perspective of the remainder of characters not included in the change. This, again, is reconciled in a universal SP boost.
I understand the "slippery slope" side as well, and though this is technically termed an argumentative fallacy, in practice (in my experience and view) it more often than not actually proves itself true.
TLDR: Excluding existing characters from the boost, exacerbates the precedential breach, and its arbitrariness in equity between characters created before or after the change.
Not making the 350k boost universal creates problems in equity, precedent and arguments of arbitrariness. Making the 350k boost universal resolves all of those, and maintains status quo and the integrity of precedent, because nobody is excluded, and hence cannot argue loss of equity, nor that the change which only applies to characters created thereafter would constitute an arbtrary one, as they benefit from it equally.
Pragmatically, all it does is raise the SP base of the entirety of EVE. There is no rational, nor enlightened self-interest argument, that can contravene that.
PvE v PvP
|
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26371
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 13:15:34 -
[131] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Precedent: The existing precedent is already being broken in Vanguard. The one which governed all generated accounts uptil now. Which precedent is this and how is it broken? There have been four of five different GÇ£status quo:sGÇ¥, none of which have remained intact. This is the first time it's moving in this direction and affected this particular group. Given the group that is affected, something is needed to smooth out the gap that the change creates GÇö a gap that simply does not exist outside of this group.
This is something vastly different from the unprecedented and completely unmotivated notion of just handing out 350k SP to everyone for no reason.
Quote:Arbitrarity: However, if this is not added to all characters, it becomes arbitrary from the perspective of the remainder of characters not included in the change. Quite the opposite. It is completely arbitrary if other characters get it because there's no reason to give them any SP. It's the lack of reason that makes it arbitrary.
Quote:Excluding existing characters from the boost, exacerbates the precedential breach, and its arbitrariness in equity between characters created before or after the change. GǪexcept that there is no broken precedent and no arbitrariness. It only applies to a very specific and clearly defined group for a very specific and clearly defined reason.
Giving away 350k SP for no reason has no precenent. Giving it to everyone, with no appreciation of why it is needed is arbitrary. Any suggestion otherwise is ignorant of history and language.
Quote:I understand you dont want anyone getting free SP. That is valid, because it is universal. Then you don't understand at all.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
smokeAjoint
Unsettled Unsettled.
67
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 13:20:55 -
[132] - Quote
Cat Snake
**-álegalize it**
|
Salvos Rhoska
1506
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 13:27:21 -
[133] - Quote
Tippia:
Are you for, or against, adding 350k SP to new characters?
PvE v PvP
|
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
1033
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 13:29:20 -
[134] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Tippia:
Are you for, or against, adding 350k SP to new characters?
I'll save Tippia the sixteen paragraphs and just say:
Yes.
Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.
I invented Tiericide
|
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
107
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 13:34:55 -
[135] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote: I resist it also, unless it is applied as universal to all characters, in which case the precedent of SP status quo is maintained, and it cannot be argued as arbitrary, since everyone benefits from it equally.
But this change is not meant to benefit everyone equally. It is meant to benefit new players get a few skills they eventually would train anyway.
Changes in EvE happen all the time that in some way will not be beneficial to someone. Should I feel entitled to my 50M isk I used on clones, when people nowadays don't have to pay for clone upgrades? Did they reimburse all SP lost, when they removed SP loss on death?
CCP has already stated what they would consider a fresh character in this case, since they will provide additional SP for characters created within 2 weeks of the Vanguard release.
So it just happened that older players didn't benefit from the change this time. How can someone feel envy towards a fresh character getting bumped from 50k to 400k?
So all these arguments about "principals" or "fairness" are moot. This change was not meant to be fair, it was meant as a very small (and negligible) buff for new characters. Why this is negligible is argued around page 3.
So can we all just stop feeling sorry for ourselves (besides us, who already don't care about this change) and just be happy that CCP throws a bone towards the new players from time to time. I mean, they already have to sit through a garbage tutorial system and cannot fly **** for ships.
I also don't envy the homeless, when someone throws them a quarter.
|
Salvos Rhoska
1506
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 13:55:29 -
[136] - Quote
Val'Dore wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Tippia:
Are you for, or against, adding 350k SP to new characters? I'll save Tippia the sixteen paragraphs and just say: Yes. "Yes" is not an answer which fits the syntax of the question.
Correct syntax is either for or against.
Yes/no is not an answer.
Maekchu wrote:I also don't envy the homeless, when someone throws them a quarter.
Why should new characters, created after a certain date, have more starting SP than characters created before that date?
PvE v PvP
|
Celise Katelo
State War Academy Caldari State
136
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 13:57:31 -
[137] - Quote
I once went on a date , we decided to get icecreams & went for a walk along the beach. Before i could even get a taste, the bloody icecream fell to the ground
Topic of conversation was so much better afterwards
P.s
I would like CCP to inject me some skill points in Agility, so i can be like the "Flash", because i didn't catch the icecream before it hit the ground.
EVEBoard ...Just over 26million skill points, each skill was chosen for a reason. I closed my eyes & clicked another skill to train... "BINGO...!!!" ... "This time i got something usefull"
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26372
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 14:03:32 -
[138] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Why should new characters, created after a certain date, have more starting SP than characters created before that date? Because it's better for the game.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Dersen Lowery
Scanners Live in Vain
1762
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 14:03:38 -
[139] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Tippia wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:350k SP to everyone, hurts no one. Arbitrary handouts for no reason hurts everyone with the precedent it sets. Precedent: The existing precedent is already being broken in Vanguard. The one which governed all generated accounts uptil now. The breach of the existing precedent is harmonized by applying the same boost equally throughout the entirety of the character base. The precedent of a common SP status quo remains intact, and the only remaining breached precedent is that of adding SP to the pool in the first place (as mitigated by the above, since everyone would get it).
If we're going to be fair, we should be entirely fair. Didn't new accounts used to start with nearly 1 million skill points before that was nerfed down hard? So it would only be fair to deduct that number of skill points from everyone else. Otherwise, you're just punishing all the newbies who started with 5,000 SP, or whatever it was that I started with.
Fair's fair. Right?
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
I voted in CSM X!
|
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2257
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 14:08:10 -
[140] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Why should new characters, created after a certain date, have more starting SP than characters created before that date?
Because they were created under a different set of rules. |
|
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
107
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 14:12:00 -
[141] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Why should new characters, created after a certain date, have more starting SP than characters created before that date?
Why did they remove SP loss and cost on clones after some time and not just have it on release? Why is it that only after a certain date, characters had access to Entosis links, T3Ds, jump fatique, a Bowhead, ..., etc.? Why can I not buy citadels now, it is unfair that someone down the line can just buy it instead of having to buy a normal POS? Why do my feet smell more now, than they did when I just showered?
Did you really think your question through? Things change. You are basically asking, why CCP didn't plan for some change in the future that haven't happened yet. Do you see how absurd that question even is?
|
Odie McCracken
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
54
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 14:12:31 -
[142] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Val'Dore wrote:A few years back, you could roll a character with over 1 million sp. So it changes, get over it. Not true.
Actually it is. The expansion which added the third bloodline to each race had a change where every new character created got at least one level 5 skill, which gave them over 1mil sp out of the box at the start. I used it to create a few alts with science 5 for research/invention stuff. I still have them on inactive accounts.
So the precedent was actually already set to not update existing players when a change is made to the new player creation. |
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
108
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 14:20:28 -
[143] - Quote
And before you reply with "Then they shouldn't do the change" or "They should just give all players 350k SP".
Then you need to consider this change is not meant to benefit all players. It is only meant to benefit newly created characters.
CCP Rise wrote:The goal here is to get new players over as many early barriers to gameplay as possible. By throwing in a whole bunch of prereqs and adding to the basic support skill amounts we are hoping new players have faster access to a wider range of activities right out of the box. At some point in time, someone will not be a newly created character. Once you are not a "new player" anymore, you are not meant to benefit from this change, because you have had time to make up that difference in SP as argued before in this thread.
I feel like I'm repeating myself. |
Salvos Rhoska
1506
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 14:35:15 -
[144] - Quote
There is no harm in applying the 350k to all past, present and future characters. No one is disenfranchised in that. It is not arbitrary, its universal. Precedent is maintained, as SP status quo remains equal.
New characters get to invest the + SP for more functionality earlier on. Old characters, who never had that, get it retroactively, in equity, for their own functionality.
The precedent of raising new character SP base alone is far more dangerous than that of raising everyones.
Raising the SP universally does not harm new characters or old in relation to each other, in either direction. They remain equidistant, and since the impteus is not to narrow the gap between new and old anyways, this remains a nonissue.
Furthermore, as I stated earlier, this will generate community hype and return lost players to the game, cos we are all SP whores.
There is no rational argument against making the SP boost universal. Why should existing characters not also benefit equally?
PvE v PvP
|
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
109
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 14:43:30 -
[145] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:There is no harm in applying the 350k to all past, present and future characters. No one is disenfranchised in that. It is not arbitrary, its universal. Precedent is maintained, as SP status quo remains equal.
New characters get to invest the + SP for more functionality earlier on. Old characters, who never had that, get it retroactively, in equity, for their own functionality.
The precedent of raising new character SP base alone is far more dangerous than that of raising everyones.
Raising the SP universally does not harm new characters or old in relation to each other, in either direction. But that would defeat the goal of the change. If you give out 350k SP to all players, then you benefit ALL players and not just "new players" as the change was meant to benefit.
If they would hand out 350k SP to all players, then it can indeed be argued why implement this change at all, since nothing has changed besides raising the SP amount for all characters in the game. Nothing has been gained or lost. The state of the game does not change, besides the nominal value of your SP sheet.
CCP are not trying to maintain the status quo. They are trying to make a change that will benefit "new players" and them alone.
Yes, there is no "harm" in applying 350k to all characters. But there is also no point in doing so. There is no purpose to such a change. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26372
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 14:44:40 -
[146] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:There is no harm in applying the 350k to all past, present and future characters. GǪexcept that arbitrarily handing out SP sets a very bad and completely nonsensical precedent.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Amber Starview
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 14:46:57 -
[147] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:There is no harm in applying the 350k to all past, present and future characters. No one is disenfranchised in that. It is not arbitrary, its universal. Precedent is maintained, as SP status quo remains equal.
New characters get to invest the + SP for more functionality earlier on. Old characters, who never had that, get it retroactively, in equity, for their own functionality.
The precedent of raising new character SP base alone is far more dangerous than that of raising everyones.
Raising the SP universally does not harm new characters or old in relation to each other, in either direction.
I would have to agree with you here ,This much means nothing to older players but for newer players every sp counts and is very important
Edit - This benefits brand new players and newer players how can it be wrong ? Why exclude newer players and just focus brand new we want to keep and improve the game for both |
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
111
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 14:51:15 -
[148] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote: There is no rational argument against making the SP boost universal. Why should existing characters not also benefit equally?
There is a perfectly rational argument against handing out a universal SP boost that have been argued and repeated for over 8 pages now.
But if you choose to either ignore the argument or not understand it. Then yes, in your mind the argument is non-existent.
You could take the stance of disagreement to the arguments presented to you, then you in turn would improve your own argumentation, based on what has been said. Then the debate goes on and on.
However, claiming that no rational counter argument has been presented is just ridiculous. |
Salvos Rhoska
1508
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 14:51:19 -
[149] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:But that would defeat the goal of the change. If you give out 350k SP to all players, then you benefit ALL players and not just "new players" as the change was meant to benefit.e.
It does not defeat the goal. The goal is adding more immediate training options and subsequent functionality to new characters.
Adding 350k to every other existing character does not contradict nor rescind that. It does not defeat, impair or detract from that goal whatsoever.
What it does do, however, is equitably maintain the SP status quo, and fairness towards characters created before.
There is no rational reason not to make the 350k a universal increase.
PvE v PvP
|
Salvos Rhoska
1508
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 14:59:57 -
[150] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:There is no harm in applying the 350k to all past, present and future characters. GǪexcept that arbitrarily handing out SP sets a very bad and completely nonsensical precedent.
You falsely ascribe the quality "arbitrary" to the universal 350k boost.
It could, according to your logic, be far more validly applied to the notion of "arbitratily handing out SP ONLY to a certain, not yet even existing, character base, sets a very bad and completely nonsensical precedent".
That which makes the 350k boost to new characters created after a certain date, which excludes it from critique as arbitrary, is its purpose. That of increasing opportunities and functionality for immediately new characters.
Inline with that, that which excludes applying the boost universally to ALL characters, retroactively and in all perpetuity, from critique as "arbitrary", is also its purpose. That of maintaining the SP status quo, equity towards and equality of characters in this game environment.
PvE v PvP
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 .. 12 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |