Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Shaddam Daphiti
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
91
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 17:48:11 -
[1] - Quote
The flesh is like unto a wayward child. It seeks pleasures and seeks only after it's wants and needs, making no distinction between the two. Therefore like a wayward nation the flesh too must be mastered for the glorification of and to be a suitable tool of the Lord. Therefore hear the wisdom of the ages passed down the generations.
If your foot causes you to sin, strike it... a moments pain in walking is nothing to the eternal suffering of separation from God. If your eye leads you astray, pluck it out. So that you may focus on His true light.
It is by pain that the flesh learns it's reflexes, therefore train the flesh with pain.
Do not do so like the Matari shaman.. who lets his scars be shown for his own glorification among his tribe! Your suffering is for your own betterment, it is for no ones eyes but God!
You and God together are responsible for the mastery of your flesh! Do not seek to correct the flesh of others when your own is vile and depraved! The Holder is not correcting the slaves flesh but rather his spirit when the lash must be applied.
Finally apply mercy when correcting the flesh, as God has shown Amarr mercy by allowing them to be His messengers in a fallen universe. Cutting off the hand leaved one crippled, striking it corrects it's ways.
Amen! |
Ashlar Vellum
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
212
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 19:46:17 -
[2] - Quote
What is the point of punishing things that are not responsible for their own doing and if you consider brain as "flesh" do you punish it by striking too, just like with your foot example? |
Foley Aberas Jones
Huogikku Corporation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
524
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 19:59:54 -
[3] - Quote
By the winds what in the absolute fuckery am i reading..... |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2397
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 20:05:51 -
[4] - Quote
Amen.
Yonis Ardishapur for Emperor
"Reclaim our Empire"
|
Deitra Vess
Hounds of War. Hashashin Cartel
663
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 20:09:03 -
[5] - Quote
And here I thought the Amarr faith was sadistic, guess they're masochistic as well.... At least the Matari shaman's scars and tattoos hold meaning besides your most holiest perversions...
Do the Khanid hold such a messed up outlook or is that just one of those "faith" things you share? |
Foley Aberas Jones
Huogikku Corporation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
524
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 20:15:09 -
[6] - Quote
And here comes the Minimatar vs amarr culture arugement...if anyone wishes to join me my fox hole will be on a different galnet site.... |
Shaddam Daphiti
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
94
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 20:18:30 -
[7] - Quote
The above, as noted in it's title is offered as an entry in the New Eden Capsuleer Writing Completion. It is neither scripture nor Sacred doctrine, but is a treatise on the traditions of my order. |
Deitra Vess
Hounds of War. Hashashin Cartel
663
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 20:22:20 -
[8] - Quote
Oh.......
Sorry about that, I missed that part of the title I guess. Sorry again....
|
Kador Ouryon
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
16
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 21:10:44 -
[9] - Quote
Foley Aberas Jones wrote:By the winds what in the absolute fuckery am i reading.....
In a general sense suffering is one of the best tutors you'll ever have. |
Goldfinch
Order of Jamyl
422
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 21:54:28 -
[10] - Quote
The Reclaiming is very much an internal struggle, as much as it is an external one. The flesh is a construct of sin, and the mind is wild at its core. The reminder of our Surrender to God must be steady and constant.
We never would want to put our scars on display, but every scar is a victory.
\J/
veiled and bound
my origin story (on R109)
|
|
Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
732
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 04:33:47 -
[11] - Quote
Foley Aberas Jones wrote:And here comes the Minimatar vs amarr culture arugement...if anyone wishes to join me my fox hole will be on a different galnet site....
Foley, I am not going into your fox hole. Your fox hole has not been sanitised since the last time it was bombed by field artillery, which was over half a year ago!
I am digging up this hole over this hill, reinforce its walls with fernite carbide, stick a roof and a hatch on top and call it a bunker. It will have ventilation, active filtration, a working shower and toilet, plentiful canned food and a many many bottles of sanitiser. If you need your foxhole sanitised you can always cross the minefield and barbwires to borrow some.
Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~ EVERGREEN ~ Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~Evergreen ~ Family
|
Shaddam Daphiti
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
99
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 00:12:10 -
[12] - Quote
Ashlar Vellum wrote:What is the point of punishing things that are not responsible for their own doing and if you consider brain as "flesh" do you punish it by striking too, just like with your foot example?
I'll actually answer that... mind you this is a writing entry and not a debate, but I'll answer that.
The point, is the same as burning ones hand on a stove... the sensation of burning teaches the brain to avoid hot stoves.. it "instructs the flesh" in the same way falling while learning to walk does. It's true that the foot or eye may not have literally let you so sin, but the animal urges of the flesh are very real. Pain is how we learn the most basic skills like walking and what not to grab, in the same way correcting the flesh gives our will, our soul, a tool to master the flesh. |
Ashlar Vellum
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
215
|
Posted - 2015.10.03 00:23:31 -
[13] - Quote
Shaddam Daphiti wrote:Ashlar Vellum wrote:What is the point of punishing things that are not responsible for their own doing and if you consider brain as "flesh" do you punish it by striking too, just like with your foot example? I'll actually answer that... mind you this is a writing entry and not a debate, but I'll answer that. The point, is the same as burning ones hand on a stove... the sensation of burning teaches the brain to avoid hot stoves.. it "instructs the flesh" in the same way falling while learning to walk does. It's true that the foot or eye may not have literally let you so sin, but the animal urges of the flesh are very real. Pain is how we learn the most basic skills like walking and what not to grab, in the same way correcting the flesh gives our will, our soul, a tool to master the flesh. Yes, I didn't notice that it's a NEWC entry, so my apologies and thank you for your explanation. Still find it barbaric to say the least, and would argue that animal urges come not from the flesh they come from the weakness of mind and will, but as you pointed out it's not a debate. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
5656
|
Posted - 2015.10.03 06:45:00 -
[14] - Quote
Flesh is a tool and you should always do those things that make it stronger - not weaker.
"Caldari Prime burns, those left behind are choking on the dust and ash that fills the air, and you demand our surrender? Is this a joke? You have only hardened our resolve. Every drop of blood you have taken from us will be repaid -- with interest."
|
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1424
|
Posted - 2015.10.03 08:23:59 -
[15] - Quote
Please forgive me for saying so, but isn't this a bit akin to respondent conditioning ? |
Kador Ouryon
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
19
|
Posted - 2015.10.03 10:44:08 -
[16] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Flesh is a tool and you should always do those things that make it stronger - not weaker.
It is not as though one is inflicting long lasting and debilitating physical conditions upon oneself. It is more akin to a spiritual or mental conditioning designed I suppose to achieve a mastery over the self, something I don't believe is too far outside the purview of Caldari spiritualism.
I might argue that in mastering the desires of the flesh you are in doing so making the physical self stronger having achieved a more intrinsic discipline, one that the practice is designed to develop within you.
In a sense you could suggest that this is a trial of hardship designed to strengthen oneself, after all our religious texts pose a question that we each must strive to answer for ourselves.
"Which test reveals more of the soul, the test that a man will take to prove his faith, or the test that finds the man who believed his faith already proven?" |
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1424
|
Posted - 2015.10.03 11:07:37 -
[17] - Quote
I would tend to argue that achieving that state of mind without the resort to such conditioning practices is the only way to prove the true, real mastery of one's mind.
Otherwise, it might be akin to using a crutch.. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2408
|
Posted - 2015.10.03 11:18:36 -
[18] - Quote
Only through many hardships Is a man stripped to his very foundations And in such a state Devoid of distractions Is his soul free to soar And in this He is closest to God - Missions 42:5
Yonis Ardishapur for Emperor
"Reclaim our Empire"
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
5660
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 02:18:57 -
[19] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Only through many hardships Is a man stripped to his very foundations And in such a state Devoid of distractions Is his soul free to soar And in this He is closest to God - Missions 42:5
Don't you think that one is best tested by REAL hardships though? Self-flagellation doesn't seem to have the same sort of 'desperate struggle in exceptional circumstances' edge that the scripture above seems to suggest.
"Caldari Prime burns, those left behind are choking on the dust and ash that fills the air, and you demand our surrender? Is this a joke? You have only hardened our resolve. Every drop of blood you have taken from us will be repaid -- with interest."
|
Aria Jenneth
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
1627
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 05:11:18 -
[20] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Samira Kernher wrote:Only through many hardships Is a man stripped to his very foundations And in such a state Devoid of distractions Is his soul free to soar And in this He is closest to God - Missions 42:5 Don't you think that one is best tested by REAL hardships though? Self-flagellation doesn't seem to have the same sort of 'desperate struggle in exceptional circumstances' edge that the scripture above seems to suggest.
Um. Pieter? That may be the Caldari idea of what you do with hardship coming through.
I don't think she's talking about the Caldari sort so much as the Amarrian sort-- the kind you endure, and endure, until you're basically a wisp of flesh and bone with a soul sort of flapping loose in the breeze, attached in place by a pin.
Barely a person. Almost holy.
If, you know, I've got the idea right. These are the folks who do penitence pits. |
|
Goldfinch
Order of Jamyl
435
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 05:26:04 -
[21] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Don't you think that one is best tested by REAL hardships though? Self-flagellation doesn't seem to have the same sort of 'desperate struggle in exceptional circumstances' edge that the scripture above seems to suggest.
If the objective to punish is sincere and true, what difference does it make if the Master is holding the scourge, or you holding it instead?
It is a gruesome struggle to overcome the hesitation in delivering yourself unto pain. We have known no greater exceptional circumstance. As they say, no one is harder on yourself than you.
\J/
veiled and bound
my origin story (on R109)
|
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1425
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 09:08:42 -
[22] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Samira Kernher wrote:Only through many hardships Is a man stripped to his very foundations And in such a state Devoid of distractions Is his soul free to soar And in this He is closest to God - Missions 42:5 Don't you think that one is best tested by REAL hardships though? Self-flagellation doesn't seem to have the same sort of 'desperate struggle in exceptional circumstances' edge that the scripture above seems to suggest.
You may have nailed one of the schisms between different amarrian social leanings...
On a personal level, I think self flagellation is a sign of weakness. No offense intended to anyone... It is just a personal feeling on the matter. |
Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
597
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 09:19:25 -
[23] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Samira Kernher wrote:Only through many hardships Is a man stripped to his very foundations And in such a state Devoid of distractions Is his soul free to soar And in this He is closest to God - Missions 42:5 Don't you think that one is best tested by REAL hardships though? Self-flagellation doesn't seem to have the same sort of 'desperate struggle in exceptional circumstances' edge that the scripture above seems to suggest. Um. Pieter? That may be the Caldari idea of what you do with hardship coming through. I don't think she's talking about the Caldari sort so much as the Amarrian sort-- the kind you endure, and endure, until you're basically a wisp of flesh and bone with a soul sort of flapping loose in the breeze, attached in place by a pin. Barely a person. Almost holy. If, you know, I've got the idea right. These are the folks who do penitence pits.
The cleansing pits are not self-inflicted. There are many Amarrians who think that the flesh is sinful per se, that you need to "endure, and endure, until you're basically a wisp of flesh and bone with a soul sort of flapping loose in the breeze, attached in place by a pin." But that's really a fringe view - though I'm not surprised to find a far above average percentage of those flaggelants amongst the capsuleers of the Ermpire.
Remember: The very flesh of the royal Heirs is considered sacred. How could this be, if the flesh is inherently sinful? No, the flesh in itself is neither sinful nor sacred.
The flesh is, very much, as Pieter suggests, rightfully to be considered a tool first and foremost. If your foot steps astray all the time and your eyes are usually blind to what is right, then this is because they were not cultivated by you and your educators to step right and to look true. It's also not the foot that feels the pain or the eye, but the one possessing the foot or the eye. You can't strictly punish the flesh - you can only punish corporeally the one who has a body of flesh.
Self-flaggelation might thus have a place, but it is quite limited in the scope of what it can actually achieve. Some people surely put too much energy into punishing themselves, energy that would be much better spent in actions of righteousness - which are also much more fit to atone for sinful deeds.
The true hardship is never found in self-centered punishment that further disrupts the harmony of the body, but in action on the behalf of what is Good, True and Beautiful and which thus relates ourselves to others in harmonious and productive ways. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2409
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 12:38:01 -
[24] - Quote
It is easy to say that energy spent in punishing would be better spent in actions of righteousness. Is punishing sin not, itself, an act of righteousness? The enemies of the outside have to be defeated, and the enemies of the inside controlled.
What self-flagellation is, is self-discipline. It is internal reflection. It is not forgiving yourself for committing sin any more than you would forgive someone else. If someone steals from you, you would punish them for theft. If you steal from someone else, should not yourself be also punished? Self-flagellation is having the discipline to understand that you have wronged and that you cannot simply ignore it just because no one else is watching. God is always watching, and we are His hands, His tools to carry out His will. We are tasked by Him to Reclaim His creations, and we must start first and above all with our own souls.
The enemies of the inside must be controlled. Self-flagellation is an act of righteousness.
Yonis Ardishapur for Emperor
"Reclaim our Empire"
|
Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
519
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 14:00:57 -
[25] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Only through many hardships Is a man stripped to his very foundations And in such a state Devoid of distractions Is his soul free to soar And in this He is closest to God - Missions 42:5
As I explained once before, this particular Scripture has been modified by the wayward liberals within the Empire, changing it from a tale about a man who got closer to God by flagellating his slaves into one about a man who got closer to God by flagellating himself.
Don't flagellate yourself. Flagellate slaves. Amen. Amarr Victor. |
Aria Jenneth
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
1629
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 15:14:05 -
[26] - Quote
Nauplius wrote:Samira Kernher wrote:Only through many hardships Is a man stripped to his very foundations And in such a state Devoid of distractions Is his soul free to soar And in this He is closest to God - Missions 42:5 As I explained once before, this particular Scripture has been modified by the wayward liberals within the Empire, changing it from a tale about a man who got closer to God by flagellating his slaves into one about a man who got closer to God by flagellating himself. Don't flagellate yourself. Flagellate slaves. Amen. Amarr Victor. "Also, bwahahaha."
Predictable as a stopped clock and half as interesting. |
Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
600
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 18:28:09 -
[27] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:It is easy to say that energy spent in punishing would be better spent in actions of righteousness. Is punishing sin not, itself, an act of righteousness? The enemies of the outside have to be defeated, and the enemies of the inside controlled.
What self-flagellation is, is self-discipline. It is internal reflection. It is not forgiving yourself for committing sin any more than you would forgive someone else. If someone steals from you, you would punish them for theft. If you steal from someone else, should not yourself be also punished? Self-flagellation is having the discipline to understand that you have wronged and that you cannot simply ignore it just because no one else is watching. God is always watching, and we are His hands, His tools to carry out His will. We are tasked by Him to Reclaim His creations, and we must start first and above all with our own souls.
The enemies of the inside must be controlled. Self-flagellation is an act of righteousness.
The body, though, is not an enemy: It is a tool. It needs to be used in the right way. And right usage of the body depends on cultivating inner virtue. The enemy are urges that are out of measure and improper and those one can't strike with the leash
Self-flagellation isn't internal reflection either. At best it is an external result of internal reflection. Not forgiving yourself committing a sin doesn't neccessitate self-flagellation.
Also, it's not whether God is watching or not: It's about choosing good over evil for the sake of goodness. If you only follow God's command because of fear of punishment, rather than out of understanding the wisdom of His command, then you remain an imperfect tool.
Indeed we need to start with our souls - not our bodies. If the soul is in order and predisposed to do as is right, then the body will follow. Because the body is to the soul as a hammer is to the smith. And who would blame the hammer for a failed workpiece and not the smith?
Yes, punishment has a place: And to some minor extent does self-flagellation. But ultimately both are crooks to shed. The aim is to cultivate the spirit to be predisposed towards the good and that is an encouraging, positive, creative process - it's a goal that can't possibly be reached by the discouraging, negative, destructive process of bodily punishment. Bodily punishment is for slavish creatures - but it is that above which man can and should rise. We're not supposed to merely avoid foul deeds for fear of (self-)punishment, but we should strive to do good and engage in noble acts for the value that lies in them.
Also, no: If someone steals from me, I'm not punishing them. That'd be vigilante justice. I turn him in to the proper authorities for punishment. My place is rtaher to find forgiveness for that poor soul - and maybe to find out why he stole and to enable him to make a living, righteously. At least to find a way for him to reimburse me fairly.
The true act of righteousness, if you stole, is not flagellating your hand in private, but to make amends, to humble yourself publicly and to reimburse the one who got damaged by your foul deeds. Or even better, to not desire what is rightfully anothers in the first place and thus not to steal. That desire is not in your hand, though, but in your soul.
The foundations to which a man has to be stripped are thus not corporeal, but rather within the soul. Envy, vanity, egotism - these are enemies not only to be controlled but to be overcome. (As the single human is not an Empire: The Empire needs 'merely' to control the enemies on the inside and defeat those on the outside to allow the individual faithfuls to overcome their flaws in the cultivation of spirit - the ultimate goal of the Empire.) If we shed those trappings we lay our soul bare and come closest to God.
Self-flaggelation - at least in itself - won't make anything right. Punishment, even if well deserved, doesn't reimburse or compensate a damaged party. It also carries the risk that the flagellant will think that after any misdeed, corporeal self-punishment will lead to God's approval of him.
But that isn't true. God doesn't want us to be punished for wrongful action: He wants us to choose righteous action.
Being righteous is not about self-flagellation if others don't punish you. It's not about not doing what is wrong, for fear of punishment. It's not about being deterred from wrongful action. Not doing what is wrong might just as well be found in inaction, rather than righteous action. It's about taking the right course of action and righting the wrongs you comitted because you aim for righteousness. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2413
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 18:52:10 -
[28] - Quote
I didn't say that punishment should replace righting the wrongs. You should reimburse, and punish. Return what was stolen, and teach yourself to never steal again.
You say we should start with our souls and not our bodies. But how do we reach the soul, if not through the body? The body is what feels and can be acted on. Nerves are there to teach us what is harmful, and sinning is harmful.
The goal, of course, is to always do what is right. But all of us sin. And when we sin, we have to be punished or we don't learn, truly, that what we did was wrong. It is easy to lie, it is easy to deceive, it is easy to promise not to sin again when you know you won't be punished for it. What stops you from stealing again if the only punishment you receive is having to give back what you stole? How do you learn from that?
Yonis Ardishapur for Emperor
"Reclaim our Empire"
|
Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
600
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 19:06:32 -
[29] - Quote
The question is, what do you learn from punishment? You learn not to act in a certain way. But you should learn to act in a certain, even if another way. Punishment doesn't teach you to act righteously.
Also, again, if you get a failed workpiece from a smith, how will you teach the hammer to hit right? No, you need to teach the smith to wield the hammer in the right way and thus in the same way you have to start with the soul.
Of course anything the soul does uses the body as a tool: But destroying the tool won't make the soul any better, nor the body a better tool - just as damaging the hammer won't make a better smith, nor a better hammer.
How do you teach someone to do something right? Not by punishing, but by being a good example. Thus, if you want to better yourself, then seek for a good example and imitate that. The judgment of what is a good example, whether to imitate someone or not, to chose an action for it's goodness. All that are faculties of the soul and thus habituating oneself to do good starts within the soul. The same when someone else provides a good example, with the exception that it starts in his soul not yours.
This is why we all can and should strive to imitate God, who is not bodily nor perceptible by the bodily senses, but by the faculties of our soul: The Teacher of all teachers. |
Ashlar Vellum
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
218
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 19:19:47 -
[30] - Quote
Mrs. Farel made a good comparison, it does look like a some sort of "crutch". Is it not far more greater proof of strong spirit and true belief to not commit a sin at all than having this loophole of: sinning, then punishing yourself for sinning, then feeling righteous about all of it, then probably sinning again. Such vicious circle can basically continue forever and looks more like a selfish desire to prove your worth to oneself and ego stroking.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |