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Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
23
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Posted - 2015.10.01 21:24:13 -
[1] - Quote
There once was a time when people claimed EVE was "world of battleships". The battleship was the "be all end all" of ships. Supposedly during this age, nobody had a reason to fly anything else (which I believe is nonsense, BS are expensive as hell to fit, and not everyone can afford to fly or lose one). So, in came the CCP nerf bat which nerfed turret tracking and medium/large turret damage application into oblivion.
Now, in 2015, we are left with a game where PVP is dominated by fast, small ships, and larger ships have been rendered near obsolete because of their inability to apply appropriate damage to smaller ships. Instead of BS fleets, we have frigate and dessie blobs. Hardly anyone flies anything else because larger turret based ships have no real counter to smaller vessels and the smaller vessels generally get more bang for their buck. The occasional t2 cruiser shows his head, but even they are overshadowed in many regards.
I understand the concern for variety, but how does it make sense that my 1.5 billion isk ship is out performed by some cheap t2 assault frigate worth maybe 50 mill total? I always hear, bigger is not better in EVE. Yeah, I get that, but that makes no sense! Think about how ******** that concept sounds. If I spend 1.5 bill on a ship, it better perform like a 1.5 billion dollar ship and not be a hangar trophy to spin and say "ohhh pretty". Or else, why even bother buying a big badass ship, when I can buy an assault frig or t3 dessie for a tenth the price that is more effective?
The benefit of a frigate is its cheap and fast, can be easily mass produced, and a fleet of them can be put together fast. In great numbers they should be formidable. Current state of the game has solo assault frigates charging head first at player BS and cruisers in missions and plexes with zero fear of death, knowing full well that the BS/cruiser wont be able to do a damn thing about it unless its equipped a neut. Drone damage on a turret boat is piddly and they can be simply shot down with ease, so drones are laughable as a counter.
Note, we are not talking about drone boats or missile boats, which perform fine against any target. This seams to be a turret based issue. |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
8695
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Posted - 2015.10.01 21:34:41 -
[2] - Quote
Who attacked and killed your blingy mission Mach in a little assault frig? lol
[b]----
CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off.[/b]
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Kestral Anneto
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
110
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Posted - 2015.10.01 21:36:28 -
[3] - Quote
Amanda Guido wrote:There once was a time when people claimed EVE was "world of battleships". The battleship was the "be all end all" of ships. Supposedly during this age, nobody had a reason to fly anything else (which I believe is nonsense, BS are expensive as hell to fit, and not everyone can afford to fly or lose one). So, in came the CCP nerf bat which nerfed turret tracking and medium/large turret damage application into oblivion.
Now, in 2015, we are left with a game where PVP is dominated by fast, small ships, and larger ships have been rendered near obsolete because of their inability to apply appropriate damage to smaller ships. Instead of BS fleets, we have frigate and dessie blobs. Hardly anyone flies anything else because larger turret based ships have no real counter to smaller vessels and the smaller vessels generally get more bang for their buck. The occasional t2 cruiser shows his head, but even they are overshadowed in many regards.
I understand the concern for variety, but how does it make sense that my 1.5 billion isk ship is out performed by some cheap t2 assault frigate worth maybe 50 mill total? I always hear, bigger is not better in EVE. Yeah, I get that, but that makes no sense! Think about how ******** that concept sounds. If I spend 1.5 bill on a ship, it better perform like a 1.5 billion dollar ship and not be a hangar trophy to spin and say "ohhh pretty". Or else, why even bother buying a big badass ship, when I can buy an assault frig or t3 dessie for a tenth the price that is more effective?
The benefit of a frigate is its cheap and fast, can be easily mass produced, and a fleet of them can be put together fast. In great numbers they should be formidable. Current state of the game has solo assault frigates charging head first at player BS and cruisers in missions and plexes with zero fear of death, knowing full well that the BS/cruiser wont be able to do a damn thing about it unless its equipped a neut. Drone damage on a turret boat is piddly and they can be simply shot down with ease, so drones are laughable as a counter.
Note, we are not talking about drone boats or missile boats, which perform fine against any target. This seams to be a turret based issue.
shhh no common sense, only CCP, and their wierd way at looking at how ships should be. |
Commander Spurty
Moosearmy Gentlemen's.Parlor
1574
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Posted - 2015.10.01 21:43:06 -
[4] - Quote
If eve were to emulate reality, a battleship would take care of a frigate fairly efficiently (real meaning, not the fake ISK meme).
Alas it does not
So, bigger not better (unless you're talking fleet sizes, then size matters)
There are good ships
And wood ships
And ships that sail the sea
But the best ships are
Spaceships
Built by CCP
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Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
950
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Posted - 2015.10.01 21:58:09 -
[5] - Quote
They need some help but making them be able to blap frigs and dessies left and right w/o breaking a sweat is not how eve works. |
Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
24
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Posted - 2015.10.01 22:03:02 -
[6] - Quote
Not saying they should be able to blap them left and right, but large/medium turret tracking at the moment is just broken. |
Yong Shin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
40
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Posted - 2015.10.01 23:12:43 -
[7] - Quote
Absolutely agree. I made the mistake of training ONLY battleship related skills for the 2.5 years I've played EVE. As a dedicated battleship pilot, I feel that I'm stuck with the following problems:
1) It's difficult to break into PVP - Sure, I can fly smaller hulls, but I don't want to have to. Outside of experienced pvp corps outside of high sec (which I can't get into because everybody requires experience + a good killboard), I don't really have an avenue to start. Considered FW, but turns out they all use small hulls as well. I can't afford to be whelping battleships in PVP left and right in this meta, and corp I've seen has a ship replacement program for battleships. Nobody wants them because T3 Cruisers are better it seems. And solo PVP with battleships in highsec is practically suicide, especially without boosters.
2) I feel corralled into PVE - Only outlet I can make a living flying battleships. I hear they're useless in wormholes too, unless I can afford to whelp marauders.
3) Feels sort of like I'm in a place where I'm useless against ships smaller than me (without lots of support, but in those situations, might as well have a bigger T3 cruiser blob instead of battleships + logi&support), while simultaneously useless against ships larger than me (I hear dreads blap battleships left and right). Not quite sure what my role in life is. Although maybe now I can blap battlecruisers since they're going to be seeing much more use!
But I admit I'm not really experienced enough in this game to complain, so I generally keep my weeping to myself ^^
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Areen Sassel
66
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Posted - 2015.10.01 23:45:03 -
[8] - Quote
Commander Spurty wrote:If eve were to emulate reality, a battleship would take care of a frigate fairly efficiently
Think battleships and torpedo boats. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25207
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Posted - 2015.10.02 00:02:53 -
[9] - Quote
Commander Spurty wrote:If eve were to emulate reality, a battleship would take care of a frigate fairly efficiently (real meaning, not the fake ISK meme).
Alas it does not
So, bigger not better (unless you're talking fleet sizes, then size matters) If Eve emulated reality the battleship class ships would have been decommissioned and scrapped; because they've been made obsolete by more cost effective fleets of smaller ships.
In reality there are no active duty battleships left, the last hull was launched in 1946. The only ones that are still afloat are museums and tourist attractions.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Nafensoriel
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
78
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Posted - 2015.10.02 00:33:31 -
[10] - Quote
Amanda Guido wrote:There once was a time when people claimed EVE was "world of battleships". The battleship was the "be all end all" of ships. Supposedly during this age, nobody had a reason to fly anything else (which I believe is nonsense, BS are expensive as hell to fit, and not everyone can afford to fly or lose one). So, in came the CCP nerf bat which nerfed turret tracking and medium/large turret damage application into oblivion.
Now, in 2015, we are left with a game where PVP is dominated by fast, small ships, and larger ships have been rendered near obsolete because of their inability to apply appropriate damage to smaller ships. Instead of BS fleets, we have frigate and dessie blobs. Hardly anyone flies anything else because larger turret based ships have no real counter to smaller vessels and the smaller vessels generally get more bang for their buck. The occasional t2 cruiser shows his head, but even they are overshadowed in many regards.
I understand the concern for variety, but how does it make sense that my 1.5 billion isk ship is out performed by some cheap t2 assault frigate worth maybe 50 mill total? I always hear, bigger is not better in EVE. Yeah, I get that, but that makes no sense! Think about how ******** that concept sounds. If I spend 1.5 bill on a ship, it better perform like a 1.5 billion dollar ship and not be a hangar trophy to spin and say "ohhh pretty". Or else, why even bother buying a big badass ship, when I can buy an assault frig or t3 dessie for a tenth the price that is more effective?
The benefit of a frigate is its cheap and fast, can be easily mass produced, and a fleet of them can be put together fast. In great numbers they should be formidable. Current state of the game has solo assault frigates charging head first at player BS and cruisers in missions and plexes with zero fear of death, knowing full well that the BS/cruiser wont be able to do a damn thing about it unless its equipped a neut. Drone damage on a turret boat is piddly and they can be simply shot down with ease, so drones are laughable as a counter.
Note, we are not talking about drone boats or missile boats, which perform fine against any target. This seams to be a turret based issue.
Ok I will bite.
Cruise Missile: 1.4m dollars Next gen US Navy Cruiser: 3.2B estimated cost
That's 2269 Cruiser missiles to equal the cost of the cruiser. The cruiser would not survive 2269 cruise missiles. Cruise missiles should cost more since they can blow up ships and structures way more valuable than they are according to your logic.
Ok.. Lets scale this down.. An aircraft carrier. A missile cruiser can sink one. So can a destroyer. Sure special circumstances would be involved(like no CBG to protect the carrier) but the fact remains a less expensive ship in the right situations can and will destroy far more than its listed dollar value.
This, literally, is the economics of war.
Bigger does not make one immune. Bigger allows for specialization or deployment of things that just don't work on smaller platforms. This axiom carries over to EVE. A battleship in eve has more EHP, more fitting options, more fitting flexibility, and better proportional bonuses to fleet environments than a frigate. A fleet of battleships against a fleet of frigates? The frigates cant really do much. A single lone battleship with a frigate in close orbit? You gonna get rekt.
TLDR: Stop being a terrible trying to attack your paper when you are the big fat ass rock. Papers gonna womp ya unless you brought some scissors along. |
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Captain Brownfinger
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2015.10.02 00:34:53 -
[11] - Quote
Medium and large projectile tracking is fine. We do not need to go back to the days of battleship solopwnmobiles. If you want to deal with frigates in your battleship then fit accordingly, it's all about tradeoffs and by the sounds of it you traded off in favour of more large target dps numbers. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
40403
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Posted - 2015.10.02 00:44:27 -
[12] - Quote
Amanda Guido wrote:Now, in 2015, we are left with a game where PVP is dominated by fast, small ships, and larger ships have been rendered near obsolete because of their inability to apply appropriate damage to smaller ships. Instead of BS fleets, we have frigate and dessie blobs. Hardly anyone flies anything else because larger turret based ships have no real counter to smaller vessels and the smaller vessels generally get more bang for their buck. The occasional t2 cruiser shows his head, but even they are overshadowed in many regards. ... ... Note, we are not talking about drone boats or missile boats, which perform fine against any target. This seams to be a turret based issue. I'm not so sure I'd agree that doctrine's across all of Eve are the same and that only one meta holds all the advantages.
I think when it comes to small gang pvp your statement is relatively correct, however larger scale fights still use larger ships and larger support.
At the same time, I agree that particularly in the past, when the nerf bat has been used it probably swung things too far in the other direction (eg. Rifter and Drake as historical examples), but I don't know that this is the case so much now (eg. Ishtar was progressively nerfed, T3D looking like receiving another round of balancing soon'ish).
What is key now is to pick the right tool for the job and location and if you choose the wrong thing, you'll probably face the consequences of doing so. I'm not uncomfortable with that personally and think balancing is a mix of craft (ie. the modules, bonuses and attributes of a ship) and art (ie. how to use those tools effectively) and it's never perfect. It's why balancing will always be needed.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Areen Sassel
66
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Posted - 2015.10.02 01:20:24 -
[13] - Quote
Captain Brownfinger wrote:Medium and large projectile tracking is fine. We do not need to go back to the days of battleship solopwnmobiles. If you want to deal with frigates in your battleship then fit accordingly, it's all about tradeoffs and by the sounds of it you traded off in favour of more large target dps numbers.
To be fair, I would like more numbers in the UI as to whether one missed because of poor tracking, falloff, signature, or just poor luck. |
Eternus8lux8lucis
Primus Inc. LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
511
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Posted - 2015.10.02 02:07:02 -
[14] - Quote
Areen Sassel wrote:Captain Brownfinger wrote:Medium and large projectile tracking is fine. We do not need to go back to the days of battleship solopwnmobiles. If you want to deal with frigates in your battleship then fit accordingly, it's all about tradeoffs and by the sounds of it you traded off in favour of more large target dps numbers. To be fair, I would like more numbers in the UI as to whether one missed because of poor tracking, falloff, signature, or just poor luck. You actually have all of these tools available when you combine them with a brain in real time. Columns on your overview tell you so many things for guns and tracking.
Imam: Have you heard anything I've said?
Richard B. Riddick: You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?
Imam: That's right.
Richard B. Riddick: Had to end sometime.
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Matrea D
Maggie's Magical Miners Maggie's Magical Malliance
8
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Posted - 2015.10.02 02:23:00 -
[15] - Quote
Webs, scrams, neuts, drones, target painters. |
Giaus Felix
Hedion University Amarr Empire
72
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Posted - 2015.10.02 02:37:32 -
[16] - Quote
Matrea D wrote:Webs, scrams, neuts, drones, target painters. +Brain
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
684
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Posted - 2015.10.02 02:37:33 -
[17] - Quote
Also the concern for dps over application. A track speed fit bs can do some serious harm to little ships. big bs were only fleet meta cause alpha was king.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1511
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Posted - 2015.10.02 03:26:22 -
[18] - Quote
How is it possible that people who, seem to, have enough coherent thought to splurge out several paragraphs of text are not capable of having enough understanding on why their ramblings are mistaken?
Also, OP should probably stop losing 2 bil in ship & pod low sec. That would probably keep the rage posts away. |
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
1070
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Posted - 2015.10.02 03:34:56 -
[19] - Quote
As a Battleship aficionado, myself, I too get the frustration. Battleships never really were overpowered, even when they were able to kill orbiting frigates without neuts or drones. The problem was that the frigate was guaranteed to die to the battleship, eventually, if the BS pilot kept shooting.
I usually get flamed for it, but I've always thought Battleships should have slots for Large and Medium weapons without losing effectiveness:
An example: Apoc goes from 8 turret slots to 4 Large and 4 Medium turret slots, and the bonuses apply to both, with a ROLE Bonus for +50% Large Energy Turret damage.
So the Apoc would go from 8 Large Lasers to 6 Large Lasers and 4 Medium Lasers.
Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.
I invented Tiericide
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1825
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Posted - 2015.10.02 04:26:08 -
[20] - Quote
people fly frigates because they are fast, cheap, easily accessible, and they can either get under the guns or run away from bigger ships.
fitting for pvp I would expect to see smaller ships and I would choose my ship accordingly, and or my gang composition. as much as I do like solo being a thing, it is an MMO. it is amazing what adding a ship or two can do vs potential targets.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Trevor Dalech
We pooped on your lawn Resonance.
171
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Posted - 2015.10.02 04:53:28 -
[21] - Quote
There are several battleships which I wouldn't dare attack solo in a frigate or cruiser if I think the pilot knows what he's doing.
Anything which typically fits a heavy neut for one... Huh, where did all my cap suddenly go?!? |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16696
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Posted - 2015.10.02 04:59:20 -
[22] - Quote
I would like to see how the OP would fit a small gang/solo mega, I will then tell them exactly why the OP is bad at flying battleships.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1826
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Posted - 2015.10.02 05:23:09 -
[23] - Quote
I have to first ask, what are the other members of the small gang flying. My brain scatters to at least a half dozen fitting ideas.
as for solo, no idea how to fit a solo mega these days. tiericide changed things. I kinda miss the days of just ramming stuff and ka pow! with blasters.
@ChainsawPlankto
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16697
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Posted - 2015.10.02 06:20:38 -
[24] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:I have to first ask, what are the other members of the small gang flying. My brain scatters to at least a half dozen fitting ideas.
as for solo, no idea how to fit a solo mega these days. tiericide changed things. I kinda miss the days of just ramming stuff and ka pow! with blasters.
Admittedly the hyperion is much better at solo.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1511
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Posted - 2015.10.02 07:42:08 -
[25] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Chainsaw Plankton wrote:I have to first ask, what are the other members of the small gang flying. My brain scatters to at least a half dozen fitting ideas.
as for solo, no idea how to fit a solo mega these days. tiericide changed things. I kinda miss the days of just ramming stuff and ka pow! with blasters. Admittedly the hyperion is much better at solo.
Megathron is better at mining, there's still hope! |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16699
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Posted - 2015.10.02 08:29:42 -
[26] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:baltec1 wrote:Chainsaw Plankton wrote:I have to first ask, what are the other members of the small gang flying. My brain scatters to at least a half dozen fitting ideas.
as for solo, no idea how to fit a solo mega these days. tiericide changed things. I kinda miss the days of just ramming stuff and ka pow! with blasters. Admittedly the hyperion is much better at solo. Megathron is better at mining, there's still hope!
I am not ashamed to admit I have looked into this.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
24
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Posted - 2015.10.02 21:27:29 -
[27] - Quote
You guys can see my kill board, you can see I have good fits that are being beat out by cheap mechanics. Just today my 400 million isk faction navy exequeror got beat by a 20 mill hookbill without landing a single blow. Got in under my guns, shot my drones. I threw my double webs on him, did not land a single hit. He has a tracking disruptor on, not that I would have been able to hit him even without the disruptor. But if it was not that, it would be any other of the 100 things that would turn my expensive cruiser into a flying paper weight.
Check the killmail. A t3 dessie, who I could not track. A frigate kite who I could not hit and could not run from who made me a sitting duck until his friends arrived. There just is no point in even undocking solo in anything but a cheap frigate or dessie, especially if its expensive, unless you are doing pve. Pvp just sucks in its current state, there is no variety. It literally punishes you for not flying in a very set cookie cutter fashion |
Matrea D
Maggie's Magical Miners Maggie's Magical Malliance
9
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Posted - 2015.10.02 21:33:35 -
[28] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:
Megathron is better at mining, there's still hope!
I am not ashamed to admit I have looked into this.
I am not surprised by this statement. |
Captain Brownfinger
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2015.10.02 23:11:36 -
[29] - Quote
Amanda Guido wrote: He has a tracking disruptor on, not that I would have been able to hit him even without the disruptor. But if it was not that, it would be any other of the 100 things that would turn my expensive cruiser into a flying paper weight.
Nope that tracking disruptor did absolutely nothing You openly admit he had a tracking disruptor used on you but you completely rule that because of course your bigger more expensive ship must win because of ship price and size right ? Does your killmail tell you if you were outside your optimal range and unable to hit him ?
The biggest advantage a frigate has in the game is the fact that the pilot can choose who he does or does not engage. A smart frigate pilot knows who they can and cannot engage and the frigate pilot that killed you chose wisely when he chose to engage you and now you come to forums informing everyone of how badly you deal with frigate pilots. I wonder how many people are now gunning for you ? |
Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
24
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Posted - 2015.10.02 23:17:26 -
[30] - Quote
Captain Brownfinger wrote:Amanda Guido wrote: He has a tracking disruptor on, not that I would have been able to hit him even without the disruptor. But if it was not that, it would be any other of the 100 things that would turn my expensive cruiser into a flying paper weight. Nope that tracking disruptor did absolutely nothing You openly admit he had a tracking disruptor used on you but you completely rule that because of course your bigger more expensive ship must win because of ship price and size right ? Does your killmail tell you if you were outside your optimal range and unable to hit him ? The biggest advantage a frigate has in the game is the fact that the pilot can choose who he does or does not engage. A smart frigate pilot knows who they can and cannot engage and the frigate pilot that killed you chose wisely when he chose to engage you and now you come to forums informing everyone of how badly you deal with frigate pilots. I wonder how many people are now gunning for you ?
That's my point though exactly, it is too easy to render larger hulls useless. How was I to know when engaging him that he was TD fit? By the time I found that out I was already in scram range and ******. That is only one of a hundred hard counters against large ships for frigates. Kites, interceptors, ecm, the list goes on. It just feels like larger hulls are penalized for entering into pvp with little actual benefit. It is impossible to prepare your ship to fight all the hard counters available against you in a larger vessel.
So why even bother risking the isk of flying one, when you don't ever have to worry about that in a small ship, and you can use the same cheap tactics?
Then again I am like the only person who ever tries to fly solo cruisers, I almost never see them out. But I guess I am starting to see why. |
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