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Anna Arawna
Mang Inc.
0
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Posted - 2015.10.07 04:00:44 -
[1] - Quote
Hi there.
Friend and I recently came back to the game and getting back into L4 mission grinding out in Amarr space. I was pretty dissatisfied with my old main pilot's SP path (not focused at all I was young and dumb) plus I was just bored of the Gallente aesthetic.
So that brings me to this pilot; About 1 week old hyper-focused into getting into Amarr PVE ships.
My original plan was to train straight to Marauders and tear through on a Paladin but to fly one efficiently will take quite a long time. I still believe that is one of my end goals but was looking into the Sansha BS and saw many people saying it is a great L4 mission runner for Amarr space.
So I guess my question is: Would it be more efficient to first train towards a Nightmare and then maybe eventually a Paladin or to just continue going to straight to Paladin and skipping over the Nightmare? |
Amanda Chan
Tyrant's Short Bus Syndicate
51
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Posted - 2015.10.07 05:05:01 -
[2] - Quote
Nightmare has 10 effective turrets to the paladin's 9. The nightmare gets all its effective turrets from a role bonus, so if you can sit in it you get full dps. The Paladin starts at 8 with role bonus and gets to 9 after marauder 5 which is a long train.
Nightmare can suffer from cap issues with tachs, unless you get blingy. The Paladin does not.
Ugh. Tl:Dr go with nightmare and if you need more tank then consider a paladin.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1860
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Posted - 2015.10.07 05:26:53 -
[3] - Quote
with lv 5 skills paladin and nightmare have the same damage bonus. The nightmare's damage bonus was 5%/level (25% at bs5) + a 100% role bonus, so the damage bonus was effectively getting multiplied by 2 which is why it now has a 150% role bonus.
4 * 2 * 1.25 = 10 = 4 + 1.5 * 4
personally I prefer the paladin as it is easy to fit a rate of fire rig and get more damage, plus it has a huge range bonus so tachyons hit at 70km optimal (plus a bunch of falloff) with close range ammo on my setup. And with an undersized deadspace rep it is effectively cap stable. Oh and with my fit and marauders 4 it out damages a nightmare without a t2 rof rig. Which imo is annoying to fit on a nightmare as it uses almost all the calibration and the nightmare with a shield tank is rather cap hungry.
that said I would probably pick up a nightmare on the way as it is better than any of the other t1/faction laser bs, and it really isn't all that far out of the way. pick up some basic t2 shield hardeners and a deadspace shield booster. Pith x-ls are super cheap right now, and a pithum booster pretty much works and frees up a lot of fitting and cap use. I used a pithum setup for a while, tanks fine as long as you know the missions. Although the nightmare easily has enough slots you can fit a gtfo mjd if you need one.
@ChainsawPlankto
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The Bigpuns
Touring New Eden Haven.
11
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Posted - 2015.10.07 09:05:14 -
[4] - Quote
If you can afford to buy and fit it properly, the nightmare is a great ship. As you say, you can be in it a lot quicker than you could a paladin, so consider it a stepping stone to a paladin. With 2 t2 em hardeners, a t2 thermal one and a thermal rig, plus a large or x-large pith booster (x-l might be tight if you're fitting tachs with lowish skills), using it in amarr space isn't a problem. I know a lot of people say tank rigs on a pve boat is bad, but a thermal one is useful against all rats except angels, and even then it can save your ass in ae bonus room. Ab, cap booster, ds heatsinks, tc, dcu, and whatever else you feel like to fill slots.
The caldari skills won't take long to skill up, you certainly don't need cal bs to V.
By the time you can fly paladin, you might have moved on from missions, and a nightmare is useful everywhere. |
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
562
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Posted - 2015.10.07 11:06:57 -
[5] - Quote
NM for sure. Csuse you don't need to tank lvl4 like a boss, and hey NM could tank quite well with faction gear. Less costly yhan Pali , which money you could spend on additional fittings. Speed is also a good factor. 4 Tachyons and semi-passive shield tank and you would chew those missions easily.
Phantasm and NM one of the best ratting ships. That's why and it's pretty ironic that NM became an iconic ship for Incursioners.
Here is my regards to Master K <3 |
chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
196
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Posted - 2015.10.07 11:45:54 -
[6] - Quote
PLD is better overall. The range bonus means your short range weapons are great and you can usually get away with conflagration or faction xray at the worst. Not to mention, short range means stuff dies in tractor range and you can pull the necessary tank only using 2 low slots (plus bastion occasionally).
NM is def good for the SP though. You don't really need to push the caldari bonus. Get into a NM first. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
872
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Posted - 2015.10.07 15:33:33 -
[7] - Quote
Yep and since the Nightmare and Paladin are the same there is no difference whatsoever.
Anyhow, you will need two very different skillsets to fly a Nightmare. In the meantime, my I suggest you fly an Apocalypse until you decide what you like to fly later.
The Apocalypse will give you an idea how to fly a laserboat and armor tank it. The Paladin will not be very different from the Apocalypse and costs a lot less that a Paladin.
The difference between the Apocalypse and the a Paladin is (other than the color) that in a Paladin you warp to your destination and sit in one place and press FONE. The Apocalypse however would like to move around, sitting still in one spot is almost as exciting as mining so people tend to like that more.
Since you already like shield tanking the Nightmare will be your ship. You get the best of two worlds and won't be disappointed and the pricetag from this morning (EVE client time) was 393m.
As with the Apocalypse the Nightmare needs to move around alot and is the only battleship in the game that can mitage damage by doing so.
All three ships will fly very different, well two of them since the Paladin is just sitting there like a mining barge and it is up to you to decide what you like better.
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
122
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Posted - 2015.10.07 15:49:43 -
[8] - Quote
Train for the NM first (you won't be disappointed) and later train for the Paladins. I have alts that can fly both and the Paladins clearly outshines the NMs by a pretty good margin when you get Marauder V. But that is a very looooong training time so for now get Amar & Cal BS to IV and enjoy the NMs. |
Kosetzu
Golden Raiders
143
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Posted - 2015.10.07 16:41:33 -
[9] - Quote
As someone that can and have flown both in missions a bit I'd say it's entirely up to your preference. If you want to be more active and fly around the NM is more fun, and you don't even need an MWD which reduces your cap due to the new-ish role bonus of AB speed for Sansha. Might be a bit tigher on the fit than the paladin however, especially that pesky CPU from shield modules.
The Paladin is more about sitting still, moving only to get to the gates mostly and having superior range and tank with bastion. I'm rather lazy right now so currently the Paladin is what I use. Used to have a deadspace medium repper that was cap stable, but using a large right now in case of *omgshitwhat'shappening* situations, and medium doesn't quite cut it to tank while moving in rare situations. I still have room for MWD+MJD and T2 pulses just fine, with about 100KM range or so with 2 tracking computers. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1863
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Posted - 2015.10.07 17:54:01 -
[10] - Quote
I've never understood why moving for the sake of moving is "fun" people kept saying they loved their tengus because they would go like 600m/s with an ab. woop de freaking doo! I think making ships explode is fun, and usually that means a bunch of moving around is doing it wrong. and anyways the paladin doesn't have to sit still, it just doesn't have to move most of the time. The apoc doesn't need to move, and the nightmare certainly doesn't need to move. All have very adequate tanks for lv4 missions. That said sometimes movement is good to match tracking or reduce incoming damage.
also the nightmare and paladin both have plenty of fitting left over in their usual pve fits.
And the nightmare is about a week out of the way due to shield skills, only really need the basics at 4 which is under 600k sp. base attributes and no skills it is 5d3h to train bs3. Less than 2 weeks of skills with +3s and starting attributes. and you pick up some skills that will be very useful just in general and elsewhere. Over all both styles of tanking are the same, see too much red hit the booster/rep. need more cap use a cap booster. the hard part is remembering which one you are doing. Seeing that your shields are down and going to activate your rep when you have a booster is probably the most obvious mistake. Most of the xl burst tank setups have enough tank that isn't really even a problem.
if you don't have a lot of isk or are new to missions then yes I suggest an apoc just to learn the basics about missions and build up some reserves. once you are used to lv4s and can afford a nightmare go for it!
ps: never group guns in a paladin/nightmare each gun does so much damage you are potentially wasting a ton of dps. at range frigs/destroyers usually die to one shot from one gun. cruisers/bcs can go down in 2 or 3 shots. and on a BS I expect 3 volleys or so, but on the last one only the guns that need to shoot activate so you can start shooting the next target immediately with the guns that didn't activate. On other bs I'll usually make 3-4 groups of 2-3 guns each depending on which guns and how many turrets I have.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1622
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Posted - 2015.10.08 00:06:55 -
[11] - Quote
I prefer the Paladin over the NM personally all things said:
Less cap issues More range Tanks lvl4's on a med rep Can MJD every 60 sec Ewar immune in bastion IMHO looks better Warps slightly faster
That said:
Requires Marauder V to match the 10 effective turrets of the NM Costs significantly more Has worse tracking than an NM Is slower than an NM outside of warp Can't make use of an AB for prop with near the effect of an NM doing the same
Both are good ships. Both do about the same damage. As others have said, comes down to style preference mostly with the Paladin offering more sit and shoot convenience with it's ability to project damage and lazy conveniences. |
Khan Wrenth
Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation
241
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Posted - 2015.10.08 01:39:37 -
[12] - Quote
As others said, it's all about personal preference. They're all good ships. When this topic came up weeks ago, I brought up the point about Bastion being EWAR immune, and that is useful for clearing some missions. Another person voiced that they simply cherry-pick missions that don't have EWAR elements.
*If you have those missions memorized, if you have enough characters with standing to keep rejecting missions, or have enough standing built up that you can take the standings hit from repeatedly rejecting missions, then you'd probably want a Nightmare. All things considered, you will have a shorter training time to maximize its potential, it will probably be quicker to clear missions, and it is cheaper.
*If you don't have the art of cherry-picking missions mastered, if you like to do all the missions or have a tendency to accidentally hit every trigger in a room, you'll want the superior tanking and EWAR immunity of bastion, so go Paladin. Marauders also get a bonus to tractor range, so the missions you have to retrieve something from a wreck, you're almost always within tractor range (especially when paired with a MJD).
On the flip side of training...yes training up marauders is a pain, but you don't really need level 5 to make any marauder an excellent ship. That bit of damage you'll lose out on the Paladin is probably nothing to worry about...I mean, 5% more damage? How often are you going to volley a ship and it have just a tiny sliver of health left? Probably next to never. Mission enough and it'll happen of course, but probably not often enough to get worked up over. And that bit of extra rep that is tied to the marauders skill? Again, between level 4 and level 5...you've already heard from people in this thread that they sometimes just use medium reppers because that's enough. And nothing says you can't creatively overtank yourself with a mix of reppers either (after all, people often speak of double or triple-repped ships if they have a rep bonus). Large reppers, medium reppers, ancillary reppers, there's a lot of potential if you spend the time to get creative with it.
Once you have marauders trained though, all you have to do is get another battleship skill up to 5 and you'll have access to another fantastic ship. All four marauders are excellent ships that have their uses, and all come highly recommended for one scenario or another.
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1870
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Posted - 2015.10.08 01:59:07 -
[13] - Quote
Khan Wrenth wrote:*If you have those missions memorized, if you have enough characters with standing to keep rejecting missions, or have enough standing built up that you can take the standings hit from repeatedly rejecting missions, then you'd probably want a Nightmare. All things considered, you will have a shorter training time to maximize its potential, it will probably be quicker to clear missions, and it is cheaper. at that point get a mach, because the only thing left to optimize is warp speed.
@ChainsawPlankto
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elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
874
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Posted - 2015.10.08 07:01:10 -
[14] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:I've never understood why moving for the sake of moving is "fun" ... and more valid good points...
When you start to pvp you learn very quickly that sitting still will get you killed in 90% of all cases. Taking new behaveriol habits into your pve is not a bad thing.
That is one of the reasons I love the True Sansha ships so much, you mitigate incoming damage by a ton by moving around with a low signature even with the Nightmare.
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
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Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
441
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Posted - 2015.10.08 08:18:23 -
[15] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Chainsaw Plankton wrote:I've never understood why moving for the sake of moving is "fun" ... and more valid good points... When you start to pvp you learn very quickly that sitting still will get you killed in 90% of all cases. Taking new behaveriol habits into your pve is not a bad thing. That is one of the reasons I love the True Sansha ships so much, you mitigate incoming damage by a ton by moving around with a low signature even with the Nightmare. I do on accation move around to mitigate damage flying around in the mach and quite a few of the burners also rely on this to mitigate damage (Blood base and sansha agent come to mind) so yea moving around to mitigate damage is an important skill to learn even in PvE for any new players. |
chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
196
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Posted - 2015.10.08 11:46:28 -
[16] - Quote
Concerning PLD movement in 4s: There aren't too many missions where you just plant and forget. It ends up being a lot of MWD to a position where conflagration will be viable for at least the next 60 seconds, hit bastion, recover the HP you lost during the move while planning the next move. But there are missions like damsel in distress where you move once and plant for the entire mission.
Beams could make it more of a ship that barely moves, but you'd be missing out on a lot of potential in this hull. |
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
285
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Posted - 2015.10.09 11:39:11 -
[17] - Quote
Paladin.
The MJD bonus and bastion giving immunity to ewar (tracking disruptors are a big deal) put it over the top now. |
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
441
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Posted - 2015.10.09 12:19:09 -
[18] - Quote
Templar Dane wrote:Paladin. The MJD bonus and bastion giving immunity to ewar (tracking disruptors are a big deal) put it over the top now. chaosgrimm wrote:Concerning PLD movement in 4s: There aren't too many missions where you just plant and forget. It ends up being a lot of MWD to a position where conflagration will be viable for at least the next 60 seconds, hit bastion, recover the HP you lost during the move while planning the next move. But there are missions like damsel in distress where you move once and plant for the entire mission.
Beams could make it more of a ship that barely moves, but you'd be missing out on a lot of potential in this hull. Tachs all the way. One MJD jump into a good spot if you need to, otherwise just abuse that 70km optimal with multi. Don't even need a prop mod, just MJD to a spot from which you can MJD onto the next accel gate....all the while not having any issues hitting rats because of range. Because if you're spending time with scorch loaded, you're better off with tachs. Mega beams need not apply. I remember doing some graphs and numbers last year with bastion implementation and it was pretty interesting the interplay of pulse and tachs on a Paladin. Conflag would obviously do more damage close up than Tachs and with scorch doing more damage at range with scorch. tachs would be superior at 'mid range'. Now they've since toned scorch down a tiny bit BUT they added polarized weapons, specifically for close range weapons like pulse. This makes polarized pulse with conflag and scorch superior to Tachs at all ranges as far as I can tell. The tank is still perfectly fine for lv4s even considering 0% resists. You need to spend more time in bastion instead of moving around but you have increased damage with scorch to make it worth it and the tracking that comes with it. It's not something I'd advise for very new players but does need to be mentioned when the tach vs pulse debate comes up. Marauders are the best platforms for when it comes to using polarized weapons in Lv4s. |
chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
196
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Posted - 2015.10.09 17:15:51 -
[19] - Quote
Templar Dane wrote:Paladin. The MJD bonus and bastion giving immunity to ewar (tracking disruptors are a big deal) put it over the top now. chaosgrimm wrote:Concerning PLD movement in 4s: There aren't too many missions where you just plant and forget. It ends up being a lot of MWD to a position where conflagration will be viable for at least the next 60 seconds, hit bastion, recover the HP you lost during the move while planning the next move. But there are missions like damsel in distress where you move once and plant for the entire mission.
Beams could make it more of a ship that barely moves, but you'd be missing out on a lot of potential in this hull. Tachs all the way. One MJD jump into a good spot if you need to, otherwise just abuse that 70km optimal with multi. Don't even need a prop mod, just MJD to a spot from which you can MJD onto the next accel gate....all the while not having any issues hitting rats because of range. Because if you're spending time with scorch loaded, you're better off with tachs. Mega beams need not apply.
Yeah, tachs > scorch (dps and dmg type). When doing short range stick to conflagration or faction xray at the worst. It's good to carry a small amount of scorch for weirdness like an NPC bouncing, but it shouldn't be the goto ammo.
But why use tachs on a PLD? Tractors and salvage drones are better the closer you are, and the range + tank + mjd bonus ensure you can keep appropriate range with your higher dps short range weapons.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1881
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Posted - 2015.10.09 19:18:55 -
[20] - Quote
the nice thing with marauders is you have plenty of cargo space to bring a mobile depot and refit between pulse/tachs depending on what you need. the 40km bubble of 1300 dps is pretty sweet with conflag. although in general I do run tachs as I'm not waiting for npcs to showboat 30km or w/e into my sweet spot.
Anize Oramara wrote:elitatwo wrote:Chainsaw Plankton wrote:I've never understood why moving for the sake of moving is "fun" ... and more valid good points... When you start to pvp you learn very quickly that sitting still will get you killed in 90% of all cases. Taking new behaveriol habits into your pve is not a bad thing. That is one of the reasons I love the True Sansha ships so much, you mitigate incoming damage by a ton by moving around with a low signature even with the Nightmare. I do on accation move around to mitigate damage flying around in the mach and quite a few of the burners also rely on this to mitigate damage (Blood base and sansha agent come to mind) so yea moving around to mitigate damage is an important skill to learn even in PvE for any new players. movement for tactical reasons is very different from movement for the sake of movement. In a paladin sometimes you want a little movement to track a cruiser orbiting at 10km for example. It is also easy to fit a MWD to burn to a gate.
and in burner missions I'm usually trying to minimize transversal for dank wrecking shots rather than mitigate damage. Although in the new gurista burner base movement is very important to reduce damage from the fighter bombers, lucky that movement can also minimize transversal
@ChainsawPlankto
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
17144
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Posted - 2015.10.10 14:04:59 -
[21] - Quote
You might as well pick the one you like looking at.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
27
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Posted - 2015.10.11 21:37:07 -
[22] - Quote
The nightmare has mobility (AB bonus), so can speed tank big guns and missiles a lot better.
The other thing the Nightmare has is that extra rig slot. It's meant to be shield tanked tanked, so putting astronautics rigs on to make it dance even better won't seriously reduce its defenses.
Try them both out and see which one you like flying better. Or take a Bhaalgorn into a mission sector where they like messing with mission runners and set up an MTU. Play around with stuff, it's fun and you learn things :)
A signature :o
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Chuffer
Testicle of Doom
0
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Posted - 2015.10.13 14:24:19 -
[23] - Quote
It requires some focus to train, but I'd go with the Paladin. A LvL 5 bling fit Paladin is ludicrous for level 4's. And with the addition of an MTU and 3 salvagers its also pretty much a single ship solution for collecting most of the loot as you go. |
Kosetzu
Golden Raiders
143
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Posted - 2015.10.13 14:25:49 -
[24] - Quote
Chuffer wrote:with the addition of an MTU and 3 salvagers its also pretty much a single ship solution for collecting most of the loot as you go. In my experience the MTU is way too slow to bring in all the wrecks for salvaging. Better to use 1 tractor beam and 2 salvagers. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1890
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Posted - 2015.10.13 16:22:43 -
[25] - Quote
Adding an mtu is still nice as you effectively have an extra tractor, plus it automatically loots wrecks/cans at a close range meaning you don't have to endlessly open/loot/close wrecks (by far the most annoying part imo). I think I run 3x tractors and use salvage drones, but I haven't done looting/salvaging in a while. tech 2 salvagers are pretty dang fast so I think worst case I'd go 2x tractors 1x salvager. 3x salvagers and relying on a mtu would just mean waiting around and/or having inactive mods.
@ChainsawPlankto
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chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
197
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Posted - 2015.10.14 11:51:30 -
[26] - Quote
I do 3 tractors + keep salvage drones off auto and manual assigning individual drones to different wrecks.
Not to say there aren't downsides, for example its quite a bit more macro management and you can't salvage + use drones offensively. It ends up being a lot of: lock wreck assign tractors, assigning drone not currently salvaging, unlock wreck, loot all before or while moving, repeat.
It takes some time to get a feel for it, but it is very effective at getting the job done, and this is coming from a guy who initially trained t2 salvagers specifically for marauders :(. This type of setup works well with short range fits and the amount of moving required to stay in range. Plus there is some flexibility. If your 3 tractors bottleneck the process, you can focus them on lootible wrecks and send any excess salvage drones to the wrecks you've skipped over.
I was having some issues getting MTUs and salvaging arms to work with short range fits. The MTU can be convenient but is slow indiscriminate, and if you need to move from where its anchored it will conflict with the tractors and arms you have equipped. I had somewhat similar problems using tractors + salvagers. I'd find myself moving around to keep range, which meant the wreck I was salvaging also needed a tractor and in turn, I'd easily run into tactoring bottlenecks. |
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