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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
13351
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Posted - 2015.10.07 16:51:55 -
[1] - Quote
Quote:All four Tactical Destroyers have been out for a little while now and we're of course planning on making more adjustments to the class over the coming months. To help with this task we intend to put together a focus group on T3Ds that will help provide feedback (especially subjective feedback) on the current state of these ships and on potential future changes.
We will use this forum thread to accept applications from players who wish to participate in the focus group The decision on which players are invited to the focus group will be made by CCP This focus group will not receive any secret information, and therefore will not be required to sign any NDAs We plan on making the logs of the focus group chat public for everyone to view. Everyone can see what is being discussed, but only focus group members and CCP devs can actually talk When selecting focus group members, we will be looking for people who can demonstrate the ability to communicate effectively and provide reasoned and calm feedback. We also want the members to have significant experience flying the Tactical Destroyers and to have strong knowledge of EVE gameplay, fittings and balance The focus group will take place in a Slack team, so members will need to be able to use Slack
We are hoping that using a focus group of this type will allow us to quickly and easily gather feedback from players who have a strong breadth and depth of experience with the ships. If this group goes well, similar formats might be used for other focus groups on other topics.
Focus group members will not be forced to attend any meetings or to pass any minimum activity thresholds. People in any time zone are welcome. Huge thanks to everyone who applied to the focus group in the previous thread. We have selected 16 members to start the group. We may add more members over time as needed.
I'll use this thread to list the players who have been invited to the focus group, to post links to the chatlogs, and to allow the general playerbase to discuss and provide feedback on what they read in those logs.
Game Designer | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie
http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
13351
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Posted - 2015.10.07 16:52:00 -
[2] - Quote
The current list of players invited to the focus group are as follows:
- Ascentior
- Chessur
- Destoya
- Fintarue
- Forsot
- Gorski Car
- Hoodie Mafia
- JOhnDrees
- Johnny Twelvebore
- Namamai
- Sard Caid
- Scipio Artelius
- Selto Black
- SFM Hobb3s
- Suitonia
- Syenna Celeste
In addition, Mike Azariah will be in the channel as an observer to see what works and what doesn't for the benefit of future focus groups.
I'll be sending evemails to each of you shortly asking for what emails you prefer your slack invite to be sent to.
Game Designer | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie
http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
13351
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Posted - 2015.10.07 16:52:05 -
[3] - Quote
Reserved
Game Designer | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie
http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
13351
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Posted - 2015.10.07 16:52:11 -
[4] - Quote
Important information from the focus group so far:
I'll start us off with one tidbit that we've already decided on (so that it doesn't derail other discussion): We plan on reducing Tactical Destroyer payouts to T2 levels in the December release.
Game Designer | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie
http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/
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Selto Black
Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters Ocularis Inferno
6
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Posted - 2015.10.07 17:42:31 -
[5] - Quote
Well, time to the lamb amongst lions. |
Stalence
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
54
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Posted - 2015.10.07 17:48:42 -
[6] - Quote
I donGÇÖt think T3Ds are in an altogether broken place but there are certainly a few things that could be done to make them more vulnerable and to restore the Assault Frigate to a viable ship class instead of always preferring a T3D. The two biggest ideas I hope you can bring up and discuss at the focus meetings are the following:
New Mode Bonuses Take Effect at the End of Cool-Down Timer instead of Immediately Please discuss changing when a modeGÇÖs bonuses take effect to the end of a mode-transition cycle instead of immediately after hitting the button. Doing so would eliminate the insta-warp trick on gates (essentially the nullified interdiction of low-sec). It also really forces players to make a better pre-meditated choice on transitioning modes which I think was the original goal behind the design (e.g. I canGÇÖt just use propulsion mode to dive bomb in for tackle and then instantly turtle up in defensive mode once I land a scram). In that situation they almost get the best of both worlds instead of having to make a conscious trade-off between the two sets of bonuses. I personally think having the new mode bonus take effect at the end of the timer instead of immediately at the beginning would help quite bit but perhaps longer GÇ£cool down timersGÇ¥ could aide this as well.
Exile T3Ds from Small Faction Warfare Complexes This is commonly supported amongst pilots in the Faction Warfare community and also would help the Assault Frigate reclaim some of its niche.
Thanks!
Member of #tweetfleet @stalence //
Combat FRAPs on YouTube
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1863
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Posted - 2015.10.07 18:05:06 -
[7] - Quote
I know a bunch of those names! Hope this experiment goes well.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1206
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Posted - 2015.10.07 18:16:44 -
[8] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Important information from the focus group so far:
I'll start us off with one tidbit that we've already decided on (so that it doesn't derail other discussion): We plan on reducing Tactical Destroyer insurance payouts to T2 levels (30% of current payout) in the December release.
As mentioned in the latest CSM summit minutes, we are also planning on removing Tactical Destroyers from Small FW complexes.
that kind of suggests you're going too barely touch them, when we all know they need as big a nerf bat as T3 cruisers do.
T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely.
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name, remove drone assist, nerf sentries, -3 highslots for droneboats
Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
14641
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Posted - 2015.10.07 18:42:17 -
[9] - Quote
I freely admit that this has nothing to do with the thread, but there are so many stickies right now that the forum only has room for ten player made posts on the entire front page.
These need to be conglomerated somewhere, with a sticky that links to any active ones, rather than keeping them all on the front page. It's just too much.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2121
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Posted - 2015.10.07 18:57:31 -
[10] - Quote
I suggest that every time someone uses the word 'cancer' or variant thereof, we fine them 500m isk and donate the proceeds to plex for good.
Mike can keep score. |
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Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2763
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Posted - 2015.10.07 19:03:11 -
[11] - Quote
Wait, how high was T3D insurance already at? |
Kasia en Tilavine
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
46
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Posted - 2015.10.07 19:03:30 -
[12] - Quote
afkalt wrote:I suggest that every time someone uses the word 'cancer' or variant thereof, we fine them 500m isk and donate the proceeds to plex for good.
Mike can keep score.
You just want to empty Suitonia's pockets.
As for the thread, looking forward to the logs. And to see if this works. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
159
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Posted - 2015.10.07 19:13:00 -
[13] - Quote
The main reason T3 destroyers are so good in my view is they are so ISK efficient in terms of insurance.
In terms of the actual ships themselves I'd say they are in a pretty good place. Assault frigates really need looking at though as since T3s there is really no need to use them.
Assault frigates need buffs and then that change alone should push T3s into a much better place in terms of the meta.
Looking forward to the results of these discussions though. It is good to see CCP trying to involve the community.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
7636
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Posted - 2015.10.07 19:32:13 -
[14] - Quote
The Jackdaw. :( Caldari lub, please. :(
(totally unbiased. totally.)
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2316
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Posted - 2015.10.07 19:52:38 -
[15] - Quote
afkalt wrote:I suggest that every time someone uses the word 'cancer' or variant thereof, we fine them 500m isk and donate the proceeds to plex for good.
Mike can keep score.
I want a score of that even if there is no ISK fines. |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1480
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Posted - 2015.10.07 20:01:53 -
[16] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Important information from the focus group so far: As mentioned in the latest CSM summit minutes, we are also planning on removing Tactical Destroyers from Small FW complexes.
Excellent news :)
The Tears Must Flow
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Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
504
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Posted - 2015.10.07 20:24:24 -
[17] - Quote
I think the biggest problem with Tactical destroyer is that nothing can kill them other than other Tactical destroyers. They utterly obliterate anything small than them and larger ships cannot hit something moving that fast. |
JOhnDrees
Deep Axion Honorable Third Party
22
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Posted - 2015.10.07 22:01:36 -
[18] - Quote
Ultra excited to be included in this! I promise I'm going to contribute my absolute best to this thing. Wooot!!! |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
40467
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Posted - 2015.10.07 22:22:30 -
[19] - Quote
Gorski has a good article published on Crossing Zebras:
http://crossingzebras.com/refining-tactical-destroyers/
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Bienator II
madmen of the skies
3409
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Posted - 2015.10.08 00:06:47 -
[20] - Quote
i enjoyed fighting t3ds. thinking about ways how to bring the target into a mode he does not want to be was fairly challenging. I am a bit sad that they will be removed from small plexes but i also see why its the easier solution compared with the attempt to balance them (which actually costs devtime).
i don't quite see how t3ds are in any way related to AFs, because before t3ds we flew interdictors if we wanted something solid and also can enter small plexes.
how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
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Wrecktum Yourday
Viziam Amarr Empire
8
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Posted - 2015.10.08 00:23:27 -
[21] - Quote
While we're at it can we get pirate frigs out of novice plexes. |
Xavier Azabu
Tarantism
21
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Posted - 2015.10.08 00:42:01 -
[22] - Quote
Sounds like a nice focus group. I would have enjoyed applying for it but I am too busy traveling at the moment.
I've read a lot about T3s and enjoyed Gorski's CZ article. While I usually agree with the author, I don't completely buy in to the idea that they are overpowered this time. I would like to defend the T3s at their current stage and I hope that some others will agree with me. I hope that these topics are raised, however.
1. Cost. I'd like to see each T3 destroyer cost about 50-100% more than an Interdictor. The reason for this is that T3 cruisers are more expensive than their T2 counterparts when fully fitted with subsystems, etc.,
2. Instant warp glitch due to mode-switching. When done right, T3s can align about as fast as a shuttle. This needs to be taken care of somehow.
Regarding the individual ships... Please don't nerf the T3 destroyer class into the ground. They should not be turned into glass cannons or specialized junk that sits around in hangars.
3. The Jackdaw and Hecate shouldn't be changed (aside from 1 and 2). Either of them are in a great place. They have vulnerabilities, handle like their respective races' ships, and are strong enough that they aren't a joke.
The main issue that people raise regarding T3s is the idea that the Confessor and Svipul are killing frigate gameplay. I'd like to defend both ships. Any changes made to either should be light - otherwise you're going to end up with more high priced garbage sitting around.
4. Please don't nerf the Svipul's Sharpshooter mode. A variety of ships are used for instalock gatecamps. Live with it. HTFU. The Svipul loses a lot of its tank in order to be fit for instalocking.
5. Please don't make the Svipul predictable. The best thing about the Svipul is its versatility. Yes it can be heavily tanked. But it typically uses two mids to do so. That leaves one mid for a point or scram - and one for a prop mod. The days of untouchable uber-tanked 10mn ab 280mm T2 artillery Svipuls ended with the last nerf to power grid and speed. Much of the Svipul's strength lies in the easily projected alpha of artillery fits or the huge buffer/double ASB tank of autocannon fits. But an increase of cost should justify its power. What is the point of the Svipul if the ubiquitous Thrasher will do more DPS? What is the point of the Svipul if a Sabre has more tank?
6. If you're going to do anything to the Svipul, make small stat changes. You could reduce the damage per T3 Destroyer level skill to 7.5% per level. This would slightly reduce the enormous alpha and the amount of damage that is projected in the Svipul's huge falloff. You could lightly reduce the shield EHP. But don't do all of this.
7. If you have absolutely have to nerf it, make a light change to the Confessor's damage output. The main gripe that people have with the Confessor is that it moves too fast with low sig while projecting too much dps. But these 10mn kiting fits are very high skill. You won't project well without constant mode-switching. You won't be able to handle cruisers with long-range weapons without propulsion mode. You can't have that much of a tank if you are using 10mn ab. I argue that messing around with these bonuses will turn the Confessor into a big Punisher. It should continue to be like a mini Omen Navy Issue, with less damage. Drop the damage per T3 Destroyer level skill to 7.5% per level, if you have to.
8. I would argue that the real change needed here is a speed buff to Assault Frigates. T1 frigates can catch up to T3s and mob them. Interceptors should have trouble with T3s because T3s should be a hard counter to them. Interdictors should not have the full strength of T3s as their main job is bubbling and catching those who are trying to escape. Assault Frigates should not do as much damage as T3s but should have similar speed to a Svipul or 10mn AB Confessor. |
Bloodmyst Ranwar
Leviathan Rising Affirmative.
144
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Posted - 2015.10.08 01:13:53 -
[23] - Quote
Xavier Azabu wrote:Sounds like a nice focus group. I would have enjoyed applying for it but I am too busy traveling at the moment.
I've read a lot about T3s and enjoyed Gorski's CZ article. While I usually agree with the author, I don't completely buy in to the idea that they are overpowered this time. I would like to defend the T3s at their current stage and I hope that some others will agree with me. I hope that these topics are raised, however.
1. Cost. I'd like to see each T3 destroyer cost about 50-100% more than an Interdictor. The reason for this is that T3 cruisers are more expensive than their T2 counterparts when fully fitted with subsystems, etc., This cost change shouldn't be made if you decide to nerf-bat them. Which you shouldn't.
2. Instant warp glitch due to mode-switching. When done right, T3s can align about as fast as a shuttle. This needs to be taken care of somehow.
Regarding the individual ships... Please don't nerf the T3 destroyer class into the ground. They should not be turned into glass cannons or specialized junk that sits around in hangars.
3. The Jackdaw and Hecate shouldn't be changed (aside from 1 and 2). Either of them are in a great place. They have vulnerabilities, handle like their respective races' ships, and are strong enough that they aren't a joke.
The main issue that people raise regarding T3s is the idea that the Confessor and Svipul are killing frigate gameplay. I'd like to defend both ships. Any changes made to either should be light - otherwise you're going to end up with more high priced garbage sitting around.
4. Please don't nerf the Svipul's Sharpshooter mode. A variety of ships are used for instalock gatecamps. Live with it. HTFU. The Svipul loses a lot of its tank in order to be fit for instalocking.
5. Please don't make the Svipul predictable. The best thing about the Svipul is its versatility. Yes it can be heavily tanked. But it typically uses two mids to do so. That leaves one mid for a point or scram - and one for a prop mod. The days of untouchable uber-tanked 10mn ab 280mm T2 artillery Svipuls ended with the last nerf to power grid and speed. Much of the Svipul's strength lies in the easily projected alpha of artillery fits or the huge buffer/double ASB tank of autocannon fits. But an increase of cost should justify its power. What is the point of the Svipul if the ubiquitous Thrasher will do more DPS? What is the point of the Svipul if a Sabre has more tank?
6. If you're going to do anything to the Svipul, make small stat changes. You could reduce the damage per T3 Destroyer level skill to 7.5% per level. This would slightly reduce the enormous alpha and the amount of damage that is projected in the Svipul's huge falloff. You could lightly reduce the shield EHP. But don't do all of this.
7. If you have absolutely have to nerf it, make a light change to the Confessor's damage output. The main gripe that people have with the Confessor is that it moves too fast with low sig while projecting too much dps. But these 10mn kiting fits are very high skill. You won't project well without constant mode-switching. You won't be able to handle cruisers with long-range weapons without propulsion mode. You can't have that much of a tank if you are using 10mn ab. I argue that messing around with these bonuses will turn the Confessor into a big Punisher. It should continue to be like a mini Omen Navy Issue, with less damage. Drop the damage per T3 Destroyer level skill to 7.5% per level, if you have to.
8. I would argue that the real change needed here is a speed buff to Assault Frigates. T1 frigates can catch up to T3s and mob them. Interceptors should have trouble with T3s because T3s should be a hard counter to them. Interdictors should not have the full strength of T3s as their main job is bubbling and catching those who are trying to escape. Assault Frigates should not do as much damage as T3s but should have similar speed to a Svipul or 10mn AB Confessor.
I would have to disagree with the price point of T3D's.. I think they are priced reasonably and the insurance for them is at a good point. The one and only reason I am of the opinion is because Eve is has already progressed to a point where everyone is so risk adverse it prevents a lot of GF's. By keeping the current price point and insurance, it helps alleviate this. This can only be a good thing.
Some small tweaks and nerfs do need to happen. But overall, I think the Hecate, Jackdaw, Confessor are quiet balanced atm. The Svipul would need to be looked over and could do with some nerfs. But please do not jump the gun nerfing these ships to a point where no one will use them (as we have seen in the past).
They are great ships with quiet a large engagement profile. This isn't a bad thing and it should be kept that way (I may be biased here as I am a solo pilot). It needs to be up to the enemy to force the T3D pilot into going into a specific mode in order to be able to deal with him. This isn't actually hard.
Also, to blatantly state T3D's are killing frigate gameplay right now really isn't fair. They are simply just the FOtM, Frigates can still take on T3D's. so can standard destroyers, so can cruisers. As stated before, they are fine atm, it's really only the Svipul that needs to be looked over... give it more time before jumping the gun and nerfing other T3D's.
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Xavier Azabu
Tarantism
21
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Posted - 2015.10.08 01:58:51 -
[24] - Quote
Bloodmyst Ranwar wrote:I would have to disagree with the price point of T3D's.. I think they are priced reasonably and the insurance for them is at a good point. The one and only reason I am of the opinion is because Eve is has already progressed to a point where everyone is so risk adverse it prevents a lot of GF's. By keeping the current price point and insurance, it helps alleviate this. This can only be a good thing.
Some small tweaks and nerfs do need to happen. But overall, I think the Hecate, Jackdaw, Confessor are quiet balanced atm. The Svipul would need to be looked over and could do with some nerfs. But please do not jump the gun nerfing these ships to a point where no one will use them (as we have seen in the past).
They are great ships with quiet a large engagement profile. This isn't a bad thing and it should be kept that way (I may be biased here as I am a solo pilot). It needs to be up to the enemy to force the T3D pilot into going into a specific mode in order to be able to deal with him. This isn't actually hard.
Also, to blatantly state T3D's are killing frigate gameplay right now really isn't fair. They are simply just the FOtM, Frigates can still take on T3D's. so can standard destroyers, so can cruisers. As stated before, they are fine atm, it's really only the Svipul that needs to be looked over... give it more time before jumping the gun and nerfing other T3D's.
A T1 cruiser can counter T3s pretty easily as long as it isn't fit with larger weapons. A single web means the end of a Svipul or Confessor. I agree with you and I hope that their abilities are mostly not tweaked at the moment. |
MonkeyBusiness Thiesant
randomly named no tax corp v2
49
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Posted - 2015.10.08 02:04:24 -
[25] - Quote
Have to say, I'd never noticed the insurance, and it won't make the slightest bit of difference to me - or I suspect, pretty much anyone else who uses them. |
Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders
526
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Posted - 2015.10.08 02:12:30 -
[26] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Important information from the focus group so far:
I'll start us off with one tidbit that we've already decided on (so that it doesn't derail other discussion): We plan on reducing Tactical Destroyer insurance payouts to T2 levels (30% of current payout) in the December release.
As mentioned in the latest CSM summit minutes, we are also planning on removing Tactical Destroyers from Small FW complexes.
Love it. |
Dmitry Kuvora
WAR TEAM U.C.F. Alliance
11
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Posted - 2015.10.08 02:28:28 -
[27] - Quote
the biggest problem with t3d is off grid links, they are too cheap and powerfull when have sig and rep bonuses
something like that(cost just 150mil): https://zkillboard.com/kill/49289380/
under 2 webs, can tank cerberus and rapier, both with faction EM rapid missiles
i think: 1) svipul and confessor should be forced to fit mwd 2) t3d hull price around 80mil 3) and maybe some signature increase
sry for english |
elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
873
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Posted - 2015.10.08 03:11:43 -
[28] - Quote
Dmitry Kuvora wrote:the biggest problem with t3d is off grid links, they are too cheap and powerfull when have sig and rep bonuses something like that(cost just 150mil): https://zkillboard.com/kill/49289380/ under 2 webs, can tank cerberus and rapier, both with faction EM rapid missiles i think: 1) svipul and confessor should be forced to fit mwd 2) t3d hull price around 80mil 3) and maybe some signature increase 4) fix insta warp trick sry for english
Sorry for angrish, in order to do that you need to spend consideral amount of isk in blue modules that cost as much as the ship itself.
Explain in your narrow point of view why a ship should under-perfom with such modules on? Why do we even have blue modules in the game? Can I haz your stuff?
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
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elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
873
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Posted - 2015.10.08 03:37:00 -
[29] - Quote
It is very good to see that the list of players involved in changes are good pvpers, people you can talk to and know their stuff very good.
Kudos to each an everyone of you!
In my opinion the Confessor should be a tad "lighter" whit mass. 2 million is too much. The selling point of the Jackdaw was very low mass only to kick her in the behind with the even lighter Hecate.
Why on earth should the Amarr destroyer be twice as heavy as the other ones? It should be very clear that an oversized propulsion mod will gimp your mobility alot. Inertia or not you move like a brick on the artic ice.
I can agree with a mass value of 1.5 million.
Speaking of the Jackdaw, I think there doesn't need to be much of a change here. I liked the tanky iteration better but I am okay that you listened to my concern that the Jackdaw would be a one-trick pony.
Now you have all 4 option open to your liking.
I have to admit that I only flew the Hecate four or five times on SiSi and even though I have the book trained to the magic 5 I don't find the Hecate tanky enough for the things I do.
And I am free to admit that I really don't like the current new sexy is to hull tank everything to make a mockery of active tank in the process.
Active tanking is as much an art as fitting a ship is - I am an artist.
Which brings me to my next point - Inderdictors.
With the destroyer hype I thought I might as well train those too since I haven't look at tech one and two destroyers much - I am more of a cruiser girl. My apologies.
I see a missed opportunity on Inderdictors as in more tanky destroyers with a taad more firepower than the tech ones. They could be competitors to face our tactical destroyer but I found that they are not strong enough to compete with them so you need to ship up one class.
At the cruiser level you have a wide variety of ships to choose from to kill the tactical destroyers and none of them have to be tech 2.
Even one Sentinel can make 75% of all tactical destroyers have a really bad day, an Arbitrator even worse.
Chessur and Sutonia, please bare in mind that low and nullsec are not the only places in EVE. In all effect wormholes you have to live with contrainst and weaknesses amonst the buffs such effects can provide.
Don't make them unviable in Sleeper space.
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1788
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Posted - 2015.10.08 04:06:40 -
[30] - Quote
The major changes that I would like to see are an increase in price and a decrease in the effectiveness of oversized afterburners. I don't use oversized afterburners, as a matter of principle mostly, but most of the complaints about the Svipul and Confessor could be solved by that.
I think the Hecate is a thing of beauty and should pretty much be left alone.
I really hope this focus group works out to improve the game significantly.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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