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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
16
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Posted - 2015.10.20 05:07:20 -
[3931] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:I'm sure this has already been suggested, but I'm too lazy to read through the threadnought - so, with my apologies, if I'm repeating the obvious:
If the true goal is to encourage new players, by reducing the grind of the SP gap between new & old players, then the much simpler solution is to remove a lot of the core skils - just as the old learning skills were removed several years ago. Everyone - new and old - would now get those skills at level 5.
As for the players who already trained the skills, the SP can be reimbursed to the unallocated pool - again, just as was done previously with the removal of the learning skills.
Simple to implement, already 100% proven to work, and without massive numbers of bittervet unsubs.
EDIT: Incidentally, there are *too* many skills in the game now, anyways. This is another frequent source of complaint by new players. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6108926#post6108926 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6110112#post6110112
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6112368#post6112368 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6111891#post6111891
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Dave Stark
7620
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Posted - 2015.10.20 05:31:10 -
[3932] - Quote
Terranid Meester wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:I'd pay $25 for 1mil SP all day everyday. That statement really sums up this whole **** up You could always manipulate the market, so only bittervets can afford it
good luck, with a barrier to entry as low as "have a subscribed account" - i don't see market manipulation being t hat easy or cheap.
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ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
6433
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Posted - 2015.10.20 05:33:46 -
[3933] - Quote
Removed a post discussing moderation and my genitals. Please leave them out of this discussion.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Vice Admiral
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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atif09
THE THIRTEEN SAMURAI The Old Guard.
12
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Posted - 2015.10.20 05:49:28 -
[3934] - Quote
CCP will implement this feature regardless as it is a new cash stream.
I say if they're going to add it they should make it better
instead of punishing people who have high sp already with reductions on sp received from packets. 500k-50k...wtf is up with that?
make it a linear trait where the more sp packets you use the less sp you receive
e.g.
using 1-10 packets gives you full sp return using 10-30 packets gives 90% sp return etc etc
they should also increase the sp drained amount from 500k to 1 mil as 1 mil sp packets sound better :) |
ArmyOfMe
Hull Breach. Outnumbered.
496
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Posted - 2015.10.20 06:13:02 -
[3935] - Quote
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode wrote:Removed a post discussing moderation and my genitals. Please leave them out of this discussion. Not to jump on the bandwagon, but at least thats not a topic explored in here yet
Could quite possibly liven up the discussion quite a bit as it seems to be dying down a little atm.
QUOTE CCP Dolan and the EVE Online development team:-áThe battle was relatively even for some time with CFC and Russian forces holding moderate lead at first and only have a slight lead in Titan kills. Then came a turning point in the battle. Manfred Sideous, the initial Fleet Commander for PL/N3, handed over command to the CEO of Northern Coalition., Vince Draken
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
7
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Posted - 2015.10.20 06:20:12 -
[3936] - Quote
XIRUSPHERE wrote:You are going to allow the ISK rich of eve to create armies of highly trained day old alts that will create chaos everywhere.
Patch must be named "Clone Wars" |
Pandora Bokks
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
18
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Posted - 2015.10.20 06:24:15 -
[3937] - Quote
I personally do not like this idea but, considering the major reasons for it I would rather see this being done in a regulated market. Buy / sell those SP packest only through NPC station services with a fixed price plus Aurum. Or go full speed and sell it OOG for RL cash only - this would avoid market manipulation.
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Dave Stark
7621
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Posted - 2015.10.20 07:08:35 -
[3938] - Quote
atif09 wrote:they should also increase the sp drained amount from 500k to 1 mil as 1 mil sp packets sound better :)
i think the very reverse.
the more SP you have to use to make 1 packet, the higher the price of the packets. even at 500,000sp the price of these things will be prohibitively expensive for anyone that is new and/or unwilling to open their irl wallet.
if this change is to benefit everyone as it is stated to, it needs to be priced such that everyone can participate in the market. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
7
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Posted - 2015.10.20 07:30:40 -
[3939] - Quote
Now I'm looking through thread and found this perl
Obsidian Crowe wrote:Please god no. You will make EVE play to win
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Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere Coalition of the Unfortunate
1521
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Posted - 2015.10.20 07:38:43 -
[3940] - Quote
So we've got to page 200 or so, the depths of which are reasonably unlikely to be read by CCP, but I'm going to follow up on my immediate reaction of "Dear god no" from page 2.
I'm not a huge fan of unallocated skillpoints, yet I am even less of a fan of how the game forces players to specialize, often before they have any idea about which route they wish to take in EVE, what the meta is, and what it will be. Without extreme specialization (or crazy levels of good luck) the idea of a newer pilot being able to afford these injection packets without shelling out more real-life money is fairly slim.
In a game that is already quite difficult for newer players, and a game seriously struggling with retention, I fear that this will seem as an almost certain pay-to-win barrier that new players feel they must pay, just to get a leg up, and that it will send a bad signal to them. Of course, I know that in EVE there is no true "pay to win" but I do worry about perceptions.
More so, though, I feel that there is quite a difference between the direct exchanging of a character. I think a balancing factor of character exchange is that you might get what you want (a shiny new dread pilot, for example) but it might come at a cost (it might not be able to double as the covert ops hauler your original main/alt had before you sold it to upgrade).
Moving on, what truly terrifies me about this idea is the inevitable meta that will evolve around it, when combining it with existing metas of EVE. Power blocks in EVE by-and-large tend to be exploitative and thus I shall present the following overly-dramatic and almost certainly accurate prediction:
"You, renter scum, you will contribute to your protection by providing us with 5 million SP per month as tribute."
Yes, it will happen, and because the sold-on-market SP packets will carry a premium, this will lead to smaller groups being forced to rip skills out of their heads just to pay the landlord... or to pay an aggressor to stop a war... or any other number of things. Obviously there is some element of cost-equivalence in that you could still, in a hard time, be forced to sell your skills for ISK... but if there is a way for one group of players to exploit another and get something cheaper, or easier, it will happen... often to the detriment of everyone else, and the game as a whole.
Solutions?
Nothing definitive. This entire area is a minefield.
Like I said in the opening statement, I hate forcing players. especially newer ones, to specialize. I would love to see selective attributes ripped out and maxed across the board (so I can stop telling newer players that the most efficient route to gain natural SP is the one where you polarise your remap and only train, for example, intelligence skills for 6 months, to the detriment of being able to fly new ships, or get new weapons etc.
Then I would like to see the "neutral remap" option keep its existing timers and bonuses for new players, but instead its purpose would be to allow a person to pull out and re-allocate up to 5 million SP **for their own use only**
New players in a corp stay longer and enjoy the game more than players in NPC corporations. Grant a small SP bonus after being in a corp (with at least 5 other players) for 3 weeks.
...
In summary, the SP trading worries me a lot, especially with how the meta will find a way to manipulate it to the benefit of certain groups. |
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Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
390
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Posted - 2015.10.20 07:44:30 -
[3941] - Quote
That is a very good idea, actually. Hmmm... |
K04 78
C.Q.B Snuffed Out
7
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Posted - 2015.10.20 07:49:33 -
[3942] - Quote
I'd really like to know, whats CCPs actual intention behind this feature.
- Is it to simply gain more $ out of the current playerbase? ( I can totally understand that and as a player, I support that, as a broke CCP can't deliver me the game I love. But please not in this way.) - Is it to help new players? (Please do so without Pay-To-Win!) - Is it just to add new "features", because someone wants new features for the marketing charts ? - Is it just a really nice trolling to the community ?
No really: What is the idea behind it? What do you guys want to archieve with that feature? If the community knows the intention, then we maybe can help to get better ideas. I would really like it way more to help, than to just rant about how sh.. your idea is
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Dave Stark
7621
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Posted - 2015.10.20 07:51:05 -
[3943] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:"You, renter scum, you will contribute to your protection by providing us with 5 million SP per month as tribute."
which is different to "i'm going to spend your 3bn isk/month rental fee on skill points in jita. thanks guys."?
if people ask for SP as payment you just buy it from the market - which is no different than just being flat out asked for a direct isk transfer, which is far less hassle. |
Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
390
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Posted - 2015.10.20 07:55:24 -
[3944] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:"You, renter scum, you will contribute to your protection by providing us with 5 million SP per month as tribute." which is different to "i'm going to spend your 3bn isk/month rental fee on skill points in jita. thanks guys."? if people ask for SP as payment you just buy it from the market - which is no different than just being flat out asked for a direct isk transfer, which is far less hassle.
Depends on what the market situation on those Packets will be. By asking the renters directly, one could make sure that SP Packets are being produced. |
Dave Stark
7621
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Posted - 2015.10.20 07:56:36 -
[3945] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:"You, renter scum, you will contribute to your protection by providing us with 5 million SP per month as tribute." which is different to "i'm going to spend your 3bn isk/month rental fee on skill points in jita. thanks guys."? if people ask for SP as payment you just buy it from the market - which is no different than just being flat out asked for a direct isk transfer, which is far less hassle. Depends on what the market situation on those Packets will be. By asking the renters directly, one could make sure that SP Packets are being produced.
or you could make sure they're being produced by spending their monthly rental fee on the corp/alliances own personal SP farm? |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
443
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Posted - 2015.10.20 07:59:02 -
[3946] - Quote
I read some blogs about proposed change. I'm trying to gather info and opinion about it. They are usually split, pros, cons etc. I think this is lose-lose situaction for CCP. Playerbase is getting older, not enough new blood is coming into game (part of the problem is that newbros think they won't be competent with 100 mil SP vets). When this hits TQ part of the vets will propably leave (because it's changing the core of the game). Without change there won't be new players (and I assuming this will open game for new players), with change part of current player base may gone. It times when EvE already losing players, gains (new players) my not outrun losess. Sad part of one of the blog was that devs think it's time to stop being afraid of incarna fallout. This suggest more micro transactions will come. After all it's business. There is no point of having loyal base of customers if you don't earn. I don't like where this is heading. There are many ways to fill the gap between new and old players without real money involved. I don't think EvE will fall apart, but it will be something different. I don't know if I want to be part of it when that happens.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
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Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere Coalition of the Unfortunate
1522
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Posted - 2015.10.20 08:06:57 -
[3947] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:"You, renter scum, you will contribute to your protection by providing us with 5 million SP per month as tribute." which is different to "i'm going to spend your 3bn isk/month rental fee on skill points in jita. thanks guys."? if people ask for SP as payment you just buy it from the market - which is no different than just being flat out asked for a direct isk transfer, which is far less hassle. Depends on what the market situation on those Packets will be. By asking the renters directly, one could make sure that SP Packets are being produced.
More importantly, you can ensure they're produced at a lower price than if you bought them directly off the market. |
Dave Stark
7621
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Posted - 2015.10.20 08:11:26 -
[3948] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:More importantly, you can ensure they're produced at a lower price than if you bought them directly off the market.
ok it's early... how?
the first thing a renter will do is say "ok you want 5m sp, that's 10 packets, that's 3bn isk to buy. my rent is 3bn per month." followed by "my rent has just gone up by 500m per month, i only used to pay 2.5bn".
you don't change the cost of anything, you're just hiking the prices of rental fees.
in addition to that you no longer control your rental fees - jita's market does. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2197
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Posted - 2015.10.20 08:15:33 -
[3949] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:"You, renter scum, you will contribute to your protection by providing us with 5 million SP per month as tribute." which is different to "i'm going to spend your 3bn isk/month rental fee on skill points in jita. thanks guys."? if people ask for SP as payment you just buy it from the market - which is no different than just being flat out asked for a direct isk transfer, which is far less hassle.
Because you'll be hampering the players skill progression directly that way. And forcing them to buy the extractors.
I'm sorry, I remain firmly on the 'this is a total trainwreck' side of the fence. |
Dave Stark
7621
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Posted - 2015.10.20 08:19:11 -
[3950] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:"You, renter scum, you will contribute to your protection by providing us with 5 million SP per month as tribute." which is different to "i'm going to spend your 3bn isk/month rental fee on skill points in jita. thanks guys."? if people ask for SP as payment you just buy it from the market - which is no different than just being flat out asked for a direct isk transfer, which is far less hassle. Because you'll be hampering the players skill progression directly that way. And forcing them to buy the extractors. I'm sorry, I remain firmly on the 'this is a total trainwreck' side of the fence.
how is skill progression being hampered by asking for a market traded commodity instead of a direct isk transfer? |
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
8
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Posted - 2015.10.20 08:21:06 -
[3951] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote: In a game that is already quite difficult for newer players, and a game seriously struggling with retention, I fear that this will seem as an almost certain pay-to-win barrier that new players feel they must pay, just to get a leg up, and that it will send a bad signal to them. Of course, I know that in EVE there is no true "pay to win" but I do worry about perceptions.
My perception is earn more isk to be less bored from waiting for traning quee. So it's encoroug me to paticapate in the game and not waiting offline until quee is done. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2199
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Posted - 2015.10.20 08:26:14 -
[3952] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:"You, renter scum, you will contribute to your protection by providing us with 5 million SP per month as tribute." which is different to "i'm going to spend your 3bn isk/month rental fee on skill points in jita. thanks guys."? if people ask for SP as payment you just buy it from the market - which is no different than just being flat out asked for a direct isk transfer, which is far less hassle. Because you'll be hampering the players skill progression directly that way. And forcing them to buy the extractors. I'm sorry, I remain firmly on the 'this is a total trainwreck' side of the fence. how is skill progression being hampered by asking for a market traded commodity instead of a direct isk transfer?
You know that large blocs wage market manipulation right?
Anyway, I'm done. The instant gratification mob can have their fun, even if it means selling Eves soul.
No one is going to change any minds and this will be rolled out all the same.
'Think of the newbros' is the game equivalent of 'think of the children' at this point. |
Dave Stark
7621
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Posted - 2015.10.20 08:28:36 -
[3953] - Quote
afkalt wrote:You know that large blocs wage market manipulation right?
yes.
but isk and sp are interchangable. by asking for more of one than the other, all you're doing is asking for more of the other. |
Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere Coalition of the Unfortunate
1522
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Posted - 2015.10.20 08:30:59 -
[3954] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:More importantly, you can ensure they're produced at a lower price than if you bought them directly off the market. ok it's early... how? the first thing a renter will do is say "ok you want 5m sp, that's 10 packets, that's 3bn isk to buy. my rent is 3bn per month." followed by "my rent has just gone up by 500m per month, i only used to pay 2.5bn". you don't change the cost of anything, you're just hiking the prices of rental fees. in addition to that you no longer control your rental fees - jita's market does.
It would depend very much on how much the skill packets cost, and what the extractors cost.
If the prices are extremely high, which they likely would be once the initial flood of massive over-supply had dwindled, then even modest amounts of renter-SP demands would lead to people preferring to pull skills out their own heads rather than bankrupting themselves by buying directly from Jita.
It is of course unsustainable if not properly managed, but certain groups in EVE are very skilled at managing such things. Surrendering player skills you're not at-that-moment urgently in need of, to avoid catching heat from some other direction, is something that a lot of people in EVE would feel was a necessary trade off where the alternative was paying a colossal sum of ISK. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1770
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Posted - 2015.10.20 08:33:59 -
[3955] - Quote
afkalt wrote:...
'Think of the newbros' is the game equivalent of 'think of the children' at this point.
It's also disingenuous I would say, new players will not benefit from being asked to pay more to play the game. Especially when they still won't have a clue where they want to put those unallocated SP. And then even more so when they realize they got it wrong and have to buy another pack to put some where they really should have. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
8
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Posted - 2015.10.20 08:35:59 -
[3956] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:I don't know if I want to be part of it when that happens. Could I have your SP when it happend?
P.S. I feel that I have right to be a bit jerky with you because you did so with me. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2199
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Posted - 2015.10.20 08:36:23 -
[3957] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:You know that large blocs wage market manipulation right? yes. but isk and sp are interchangable. by asking for more of one than the other, all you're doing is asking for more of the other.
Except if skill packets are artificially inflated, it'll be cheaper to slurp your own brains/run plex funded farms.
You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that players of this game are not the most ruthless, clever and exploitive people imaginable.
Again perhaps if there was a shining light of awesome alongside all the concerns....but there's not. There is some vague handwavy crap about the bazaar having drawbacks - as it should. But now, now just buy a perfect thing either by grinding or $. It's an utter betrayal of one of eves core selling points tbh.
Choices matter, choices have consequences. But for a small fee, not any more. |
Dave Stark
7621
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Posted - 2015.10.20 08:40:20 -
[3958] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:More importantly, you can ensure they're produced at a lower price than if you bought them directly off the market. ok it's early... how? the first thing a renter will do is say "ok you want 5m sp, that's 10 packets, that's 3bn isk to buy. my rent is 3bn per month." followed by "my rent has just gone up by 500m per month, i only used to pay 2.5bn". you don't change the cost of anything, you're just hiking the prices of rental fees. in addition to that you no longer control your rental fees - jita's market does. It would depend very much on how much the skill packets cost, and what the extractors cost. If the prices are extremely high, which they likely would be once the initial flood of massive over-supply had dwindled, then even modest amounts of renter-SP demands would lead to people preferring to pull skills out their own heads rather than bankrupting themselves by buying directly from Jita. It is of course unsustainable if not properly managed, but certain groups in EVE are very skilled at managing such things. Surrendering player skills you're not at-that-moment urgently in need of, to avoid catching heat from some other direction, is something that a lot of people in EVE would feel was a necessary trade off where the alternative was paying a colossal sum of ISK.
a SP packet will never cost more than 1/4 plex + extractor cost to produce. ever. it doesn't matter what the market price is. just pull it from an alt's head, there's never a situation where you will *have* to pull it out of your own head and thus your skill progression is never hampered.
this is no different to saying "if ccp want to introduce this "plex idea" then all teh ebils will charge you 1 plex per month to rent and people will be forced to open their wallets and pay real money to rent!!!!".
we're also overlooking the most obvious point; it's not in any landlord's best interest to alienate their renters - it's not slavery it's a rental agreement. |
Dave Stark
7621
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Posted - 2015.10.20 08:42:15 -
[3959] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Dave Stark wrote:afkalt wrote:You know that large blocs wage market manipulation right? yes. but isk and sp are interchangable. by asking for more of one than the other, all you're doing is asking for more of the other. Except if skill packets are artificially inflated, it'll be cheaper to slurp your own brains/run plex funded farms. You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that players of this game are not the most ruthless, clever and exploitive people imaginable. Again perhaps if there was a shining light of awesome alongside all the concerns....but there's not. There is some vague handwavy crap about the bazaar having drawbacks - as it should. But now, now just buy a perfect thing either by grinding or $. It's an utter betrayal of one of eves core selling points tbh. Choices matter, choices have consequences. But for a small fee, not any more.
i'm not pretending eve players aren't the most ruthless and exploitative people on the planet - but asking to pay my rent in euros instead of sterling just makes me do a currency conversion, i don't suddenly go and get a job overseas instead. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
443
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Posted - 2015.10.20 08:51:52 -
[3960] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Could I have your SP when it happend? No. Grow up kid. You money making FW is about to being nerfed. They wanna introduce fast webing frigs to deal with SB farm. I suggest to read blogs and minutes, things are started to change fast here. BTW you have a great potential in this game if you know how to/where earn money at start. I'm impressed.
Another thing. Corps usually taking players that reached some SP level.
Dave Stark wrote:a SP packet will never cost more than 1/4 plex + extractor cost to produce. ever. X here is extractor and we don't know the price yet.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
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