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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
352
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Posted - 2015.11.15 06:32:06 -
[5701] - Quote
Tau Phoenix wrote:CCP : The real currency in Eve is time. Time is what makes Skillpoints, time is what makes isk, time is our investment. Please don't ruin this game by devalueing our investment.
But one of the core tenets of EVE is the player driver economy... so why not make time a tradable commodity? We can already trade game-time in monthly chunks. We can already trade time in ISK. We can already trade time in full-character chunks. What is the issue with trading time in 500k SP chunks?
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
246
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Posted - 2015.11.15 08:00:27 -
[5702] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:Tau Phoenix wrote:CCP : The real currency in Eve is time. Time is what makes Skillpoints, time is what makes isk, time is our investment. Please don't ruin this game by devalueing our investment. But one of the core tenets of EVE is the player driver economy... so why not make time a tradable commodity? We can already trade game-time in monthly chunks. We can already trade time in ISK. We can already trade time in full-character chunks. What is the issue with trading time in 500k SP chunks? The bazaar was a necessary evil that CCP introduced to combat RMT it is also very different than the ability to have a zero day custom built toon. Your month chunk is just an in game commodity to be freely traded as it belongs to no timeline, travesty being that same item could rocket in price when this is introduced.
Don't confuse the passage of time, real time with a 30 day voucher ( Commodity ) Until actually used its only has a monetary value not a time one.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Jared Khanar
78
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Posted - 2015.11.15 09:28:57 -
[5703] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Tau Phoenix wrote: Skillpoint for Cash = Pay to Win ... CCP : The real currency in Eve is time. Time is what makes Skillpoints, time is what makes isk, time is our investment. Please don't ruin this game by devalueing our investment.
Wait 2 win. I prefer Do something to win.
Yep... doing something to > wait to > pay something to ... get a fun gameplay
Let-¦s skip the features designed for the pay and waiting part and head to / develop the good things instead. All of us are already paying to do / play ;)
Economic Services
trading spacepixels
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
156
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Posted - 2015.11.15 15:27:45 -
[5704] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote: Let-¦s skip the features designed for the pay and waiting part and head to / develop the good things instead.
I'm fine with skill trading system.
Jared Khanar wrote: All of us are already paying to do be able to do / play ;)
Not all. Because of it some people don't mind if another person sell extra plex on the market.
Pinky Bear
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Tau Phoenix
Eternal Darkness. Blades of Grass
54
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Posted - 2015.11.15 16:16:45 -
[5705] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:Tau Phoenix wrote:CCP : The real currency in Eve is time. Time is what makes Skillpoints, time is what makes isk, time is our investment. Please don't ruin this game by devalueing our investment. But one of the core tenets of EVE is the player driver economy... so why not make time a tradable commodity? We can already trade game-time in monthly chunks. We can already trade time in ISK. We can already trade time in full-character chunks. What is the issue with trading time in 500k SP chunks?
This will be the start of teh end and CCP would not stop there. This current system means to syphon off SP from a players SP but it is not a like for like exchange. The seller can decide what SP to sell and where to take them from, the buyer can redistribute the SP as they see fit.
This is not healthy for the game in any way. It is not like a char is selling Battleship lvl5 and the buyer purchasing Batteship lvl5 as there is no tie here. Even if you were selling skillpoints that can only be injected to the attriburte they were originally trained for i still think this is a bad idea.
I hear some people saying that with this mechanic i can sell off any unanted SP becasue they may no longer use those particuler skill attributes. All this will do is players will use this mechanic to make 'pure' focused chars. Well, if you made a decision to train a skill at some oint then you made that decision and it should not be able to be undone.
I also see another problem, what happens if a player tried to sell SP for a skill that they no longer use but th eskill is a pre-requestite for a skill they do use? Would CCP like to comment here? Would that char still be able to fly a T2 cruiser is the prerequisit SP werr sold/removed from th e char? |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
31
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Posted - 2015.11.15 18:56:25 -
[5706] - Quote
Anyone seen a reply from a CCP Dev yet ?
I was wondering if they would consider NOT SELLING SKILL POINTS but maybe they could use some of the following ideas:
A character 'REMAP SP' item from the store - in case you want to turn those mining SP into Combat SP The ability to package ''WHOLE CHARACTERS' to be sold on the market - get rid of the Bazaar bring it in-game Boosters for SP gain that are balanced towards lower SP character - the Blood boosters were very popular
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Zakks
Zakks Shop
17
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Posted - 2015.11.15 19:39:19 -
[5707] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Anyone seen a reply from a CCP Dev yet ?
I was wondering if they would consider NOT SELLING SKILL POINTS but maybe they could use some of the following ideas:
A character 'REMAP SP' item from the store - in case you want to turn those mining SP into Combat SP The ability to package ''WHOLE CHARACTERS' to be sold on the market - get rid of the Bazaar bring it in-game Boosters for SP gain that are balanced towards lower SP character - the Blood boosters were very popular
Remapping SP for AUR/PLEX is a much better idea than SP-harvesting. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
156
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Posted - 2015.11.15 19:40:39 -
[5708] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote: A character 'REMAP SP' item from the store - in case you want to turn those mining SP into Combat SP
1 post earlier
Tau Phoenix wrote: Well, if you made a decision to train a skill at some oint then you made that decision and it should not be able to be undone.
Pinky Bear
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
251
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Posted - 2015.11.15 21:52:09 -
[5709] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:-Ü-é-+--é-+ -¦-¦-¦-î -¦-+-+-¦-¦-+ -+-+-¦-¦-+-¦-é-î, -ç-é-+ -+-+-¦-¦-¦-â -+-¦-+-î-+-Å -¦-â-+-+-é-î. -ÿ -+-â-ü-é-î -ì-é-+ -¦-â-¦-¦-é EVE.
Translated
Somebody has to show that victory can not be bought, And let it be EVE.
Good man, couldn't of said it better myself !!!
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
156
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Posted - 2015.11.15 22:08:33 -
[5710] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:General Lootit wrote:-Ü-é-+--é-+ -¦-¦-¦-î -¦-+-+-¦-¦-+ -+-+-¦-¦-+-¦-é-î, -ç-é-+ -+-+-¦-¦-¦-â -+-¦-+-î-+-Å -¦-â-+-+-é-î. -ÿ -+-â-ü-é-î -ì-é-+ -¦-â-¦-¦-é EVE.
Translated
Somebody has to show that victory can not be bought, And let it be EVE.
Good man, couldn't of said it better myself !!! Follow me and I will reveal you the truth!
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
219
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Posted - 2015.11.16 01:04:16 -
[5711] - Quote
Just read the blog
It's a very good idea, must admit never knew that many characters went through the bazaar each day.
Diminishing returns is also a very good idea, as it protects your older customers characters sp lead, which they deserve. It also allows others to get to a point where they can have more options with what they want to do in the game.
The only thing is to protect those older customers characters you will probably need a limit to which you can use them to boost a character. Off the top of my head, I'd say 150 million sp. But of course you would be in a better position to know what that cut of point should be.
Get rid of the character bazaar and replace with an in-game system like you are proposing in a very good idea.
Edit:
It also does away with the problem of someone buying a character where they don't like the name. |
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
219
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Posted - 2015.11.16 01:12:18 -
[5712] - Quote
Zakks wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Anyone seen a reply from a CCP Dev yet ?
I was wondering if they would consider NOT SELLING SKILL POINTS but maybe they could use some of the following ideas:
A character 'REMAP SP' item from the store - in case you want to turn those mining SP into Combat SP The ability to package ''WHOLE CHARACTERS' to be sold on the market - get rid of the Bazaar bring it in-game Boosters for SP gain that are balanced towards lower SP character - the Blood boosters were very popular
Remapping SP for AUR/PLEX is a much better idea than SP-harvesting.
They're replacing the current bazaar. Some people create characters just for the bazaar so CCP is giving them something to do. |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
26121
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Posted - 2015.11.16 06:07:22 -
[5713] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Well, actually, you demonstrated one way in which it did help new players. Recruitment benefits. Or more generally, the desire for older players to use their resources to help new players for mutual gain. Further, even that aside the proposed means puts gaining SP in a much more new player friendly package in terms of obtainability through cost (though I'd granulate further) and retaining of the players personally crafted identity. You can't just take one small piece of the argument that benefits you and argue it.
It disproportionately benefits newbros in large alliances. Why do you think this is good for EVE from a 10,000 foot view standpoint?
Let's not forget that newbros don't need SP to have fun. You've yet to demonstrate that SPs for newbros specifically is a problem that needs to be solved.
Quote:When the packets become individually obtainable at reasonable rates they a) reduce the desire for RL cash expenditure for end users by being more obtainable through in game earnings (for sellers it's no change since they pay character transfer fees in the bazaar via PLEX now) and b) disincentivize RMT related directly to them for the same reason (black markets thrive where legitimate supply is very limited and expensive or doesn't exist. This actually tries to address that specifically as high character prices could actually drive RMT for isk trying to get a better exchange rate on $:SP). You completely lost me on your logic.
You can't trade SP today. What RMT pipe are you preventing by introducing SP Trading?
Quote:Edit: With regard to tracking RMT for packets vs characters or isk I'm not seeing this as a new driver since isk alone is still effectively all of the above anyways so it may be moot, but if it's not how is it less traceable than isk? Why introduce the mechanism at all? You've just admitted it's at least as RMT-able as ISK? Currently the mechanism doesn't exist, but you'd like to introduce it so it turns into an RMT pipe?
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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Laurew
Original Black Plague
2
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Posted - 2015.11.16 08:13:14 -
[5714] - Quote
This is the worst idea CCP has ever had. Get rid of Fatty Gay and maybe the game will thrive again |
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
219
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Posted - 2015.11.16 10:21:46 -
[5715] - Quote
There is a potential problem with the system.
If demand out strips supply then you are likely to get some of the richer players in EvE stockpiling them, they may do this anyway and release them slowly so that the price is artificially high.
You could combat this although it could be potentially ineffective.
When you buy the packet off of the market, you don't get the packet you get the sp ready to use. The problem is that all they would have to do is repackage them.
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Amanda Orion
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
64
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Posted - 2015.11.16 10:49:28 -
[5716] - Quote
Avvy wrote: Diminishing returns is also a very good idea, as it protects your older customers characters sp lead, which they deserve. It also allows others to get to a point where they can have more options with what they want to do in the game.
Diminishing returns is a bad idea, because it says a big F you to your most loyal customers. It only protects older character's SP investment from poor people - or at least "not rich" people.
Fixed that for you...
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
251
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Posted - 2015.11.16 11:40:16 -
[5717] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: We hope that because this feature is modeled from the Character Bazaar, a long-standing and well-established feature, we are already pointed in a good direction. In what way is this feature modeled off the character bazaar in any way except that it pertains to trading. That's like saying there is no difference between an Austin A40 and an Aston Martin DB11 - they both have 4 wheels and drive along a road.
CCP Rise wrote:We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point. You have done away with any need to have training decisions at all, You've given anyone with a large enough wallet the ability to create the perfect character for anything in game. There is no need to re-spec an elite character.
CCP Rise wrote:On top of all that, you have to accept that you donGÇÖt get any personalization of the character youGÇÖre buying. The name, exact skill distribution and reputation are all set before you buy. They have always been the downside to having the bazaar, Personalization / customization comes from being given the opportunity to alter your own character (time investment ) not the ability to bin it and create a whole new one. A name change, A skill respeccing package that is personalization not grow you own character in a day.
CCP Rise wrote:Note that respeccing below 5mil SP is not possible because characters that new are not allowed to create the SP items. So the players who make most mistakes, the new guys still have to live with them until theyre old enough to start recycling, this helps them in what way then ???
CCP Rise wrote:We would like feedback on everything from how the diminishing returns work to what ways you could see this feature being exploited to what ISK price to expect a Skill Packet to fetch so please let us know what you think. Exploited .... How about introducing a new RMT mechanism into the game, Skill point Farms, With its base price always being fixed by the plex It will never be an independent commodity so always being able to be controlled by CCP. Nexx store was for vanity items only yet the Extractor is for aurum. Only people with optimum training can match a 4 packet / plex path - Only balance to that is to remove attribs so doesn't favour anyone in game, every player has the ability to train XXXX skillpoints per hour.
What your doing to this game you ought to change it from Team Size Matters to Team FA Matters.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
219
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Posted - 2015.11.16 12:11:53 -
[5718] - Quote
Amanda Orion wrote:Avvy wrote: Diminishing returns is also a very good idea, as it protects your older customers characters sp lead, which they deserve. It also allows others to get to a point where they can have more options with what they want to do in the game.
Diminishing returns is a bad idea, because it says a big F you to your most loyal customers. It only protects older character's SP investment from poor people - or at least "not rich" people. Fixed that for you...
Diminishing returns are fine, the system really allows newer players (5 million +) to get to a stage where they can try something they actually want to do.
If you just want to fly frigates you only need a set amount of sp, sp after that is irrelevant.
If you want to fly cruisers you need a bit more, after that any extra sp is irrelevant.
Battleship you will need more, any sp after that will be irrelevant.
and so on...
Don't forget players that have been around a long time should have a lot of isk anyway. So are more likely to be able to afford them anyway. Without having to spend any more RL currency. |
Amanda Orion
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
64
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Posted - 2015.11.16 12:44:26 -
[5719] - Quote
Avvy wrote: Plus some of those older characters players keep telling me sp isn't important.
And by your logic, some means all... ^^ |
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
222
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Posted - 2015.11.16 12:51:31 -
[5720] - Quote
Amanda Orion wrote:Avvy wrote: Plus some of those older characters players keep telling me sp isn't important.
And by your logic, some means all... ^^
Of course not, if it did , I'd have said so.
Edit:
Actually, it was a little dig at them really. As I was pointing out not all older players feel the same way they do. |
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
156
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Posted - 2015.11.16 15:29:01 -
[5721] - Quote
Amanda Orion wrote: Diminishing returns is a bad idea, because it says a big F you to your most loyal customers.
Mom why little brother has better toys?! |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
156
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Posted - 2015.11.16 15:44:49 -
[5722] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: You can't just take one small piece of the argument that benefits you and argue it.
You can't just invent many reasons with intention to proof this change is bad for entire GAME because it's not benefitial for you. Wait... You can. |
Amanda Orion
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
64
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Posted - 2015.11.16 15:59:03 -
[5723] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Amanda Orion wrote: Diminishing returns is a bad idea, because it says a big F you to your most loyal customers.
Mom why little brother has better toys?!
Your well reasoned intellectual argument has fully explored the commercial implications of showing long standing loyal customers that they are considered less important than new customers, or even possibly expendable.
Thank you so much. |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
156
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Posted - 2015.11.16 16:19:07 -
[5724] - Quote
Amanda Orion wrote: Your well reasoned intellectual argument has fully explored the commercial implications of showing long standing loyal customers that they are considered less important than new customers, or even possibly expendable.
Thank you so much.
Very loyal
Vahligmarr wrote:I just cancelled my account. You can leave a message why you quit in the process. I did.
Jeremiah Saken wrote: I don't know if I want to be part of it when that happens.
Daniela Doran wrote: I'm losing all interest to log in anymore thanks to you. For really long standing loyal players spring will show a bunch of new things. |
Veraca Darmazaf
EVE University Ivy League
10
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Posted - 2015.11.16 16:27:17 -
[5725] - Quote
Amanda Orion wrote: Your well reasoned intellectual argument has fully explored the commercial implications of showing long standing loyal customers that they are considered less important than new customers, or even possibly expendable.
Thank you so much.
If the proposed system somehow makes long term customers feel less important than new customers or expendable I'd say they need to get over themselves.
I've seen so many conflicting arguments about who this would help and who it would hurt at this point that they mostly cancel each other out in my mind. The only things that I've seen that stick out without another conflicting argument from the 'No' side are spy's/infiltration/etc and RMT.
The first I just see as something people would adapt to, but I don't have enough experience to really weigh in on the subject. The second is something you can mitigate if you design around it but it's not only unavoidable but also already present in the game, so I don't see this making a big difference there.
That said, I'm not interested in taking part in a long discussion about my views on the subject, so feel free to ignore this post. |
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
941
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Posted - 2015.11.16 16:50:14 -
[5726] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: [quote=Tyberius Franklin]
You can't trade SP today. What RMT pipe are you preventing by introducing SP Trading?
Not sure you are entirely serious. The longest running and most pervasive form of RMT in Eve has always been the sale of characters (which are packets of SP) for rl cash. The character bazarr exists precisely to offer players a non RMT based exchange. This proposal is just taking the bazarr one step further.
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Doddy
Esoteric Operations
941
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Posted - 2015.11.16 17:08:21 -
[5727] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:slightly wild eyed gnashing of teeth.
You seem to live in this fantasy land where players are going to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars respecing their characters to be "perfect" for what they fancy, when anyone with such spare cash to sink into the game can already do it through the bazarr for like 1% of the cost. If you truly have such a problem with people being able to retain their name on their RL funded chars that it is a good enough reason to rob everyone else of the utility this system offers you must have a personal agenda.
You are really being obtuse if you cant see how this system is modeled off the character bazaar, it is obvious to anyone with half a brain. The character bazaar facilitates the trade of sp for isk in character sized packets with ccp taking a transfer fee. The proposed system allows the trade of 500k packets of sp for isk with ccp taking a transfer fee. The only difference is the improved personalisation of the traded sp being retained on the players own character, along with the utility of the size of the packets. That and the diminishing returns, which the bazarr does not have at all. |
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
941
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Posted - 2015.11.16 17:09:27 -
[5728] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:With 4 CSM's coming forward to say they don't like this 90% of posters saying its a flawed or bad idea 1st 20ish pages - I got bored checking Quote:Now we will see if CCP actually listens to the players
Thats funny, it is about 50-50 for the other 200 pages after people actually looked ta the proposal, i wonder why you stopped checking ...
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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
251
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Posted - 2015.11.16 17:29:07 -
[5729] - Quote
Doddy wrote:You seem to live in this fantasy land where players are going to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars respecing their characters to be "perfect" for what they fancy, when anyone with such spare cash to sink into the game can already do it through the bazarr for like 1% of the cost. So the $60,000 dollars they make each month from transfers is fantasy too ???? Then the sale of the plexes to actually buy the toons, noticed they've not offered up that info either. If real money is involved it just devalues the whole game.
GÇ£Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.GÇ¥
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
157
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Posted - 2015.11.16 17:37:25 -
[5730] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: If real money is involved it just devalues the whole game. Confirmed. Plexes devalues the whole game. |
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