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Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
46
|
Posted - 2015.11.30 21:11:44 -
[5971] - Quote
Rat Scout wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:
Stagnation: If you could play for free & not bother training would you ?
I could play for free right now and avoid training skills if I bought a character of the bazar. Iowa Banshee wrote:
I have 2 subscriptions with characters @ 49/24/27 Mill SP & 45/20/18 Mill SP.
Training Acct 1 main for a carrier pilot, 2nd Scanning/ Pi, 3rd industrial / market seller Training Acct 2 main for industrial command (already a booster, 2nd & 3rd scanning / Pi alts)
Since they were introduced I have always used 1 multi-train per month (bought with ISK at the market) - and - in addition about every 2 -3 months I dual training on my 2nd account.
- I don't need really a carrier pilot it's just something I want to achieve - I'm in WH space & happy where I am. - My pi Alts are good enough at their jobs - I don't need an industrial command to be in a Rorqual - If I was moving to low or null sec but for the WH an orca will do.
Ok, I dual train one at least one account and pay CCP directly for aurum, what is your point? Iowa Banshee wrote: If it is possible to farm SP at a profit (say 10% return - market forces dictate that they need to make a profit for anyone to sell them). With TSP income and what I make in WH space - I will be able to play the game for free.
Of course I don't want to stagnate or actually give up my training goals BUT this may give me a better goal... and playing for free may make stagnation a sweet alternative to continual training.
Just one step towards the ultimate aim of any free to play financial model - getting the players to pay for progression.
Skills are being farmed for profit trough the bazar, TSP is only going to make it more accessible. Iowa Banshee wrote: Pay To WIn :
I would prefer
-- If you don't like the bazaar - sell a $40 item to package an alt for sale on the market -- Think newbies need to train faster - introduce boosters with diminishing return -- Upset with your past training choices - sell a $20 item for remapping
Don't make the effort of gaining skills worthless by selling skill points.
I don't want TSP as proposed because it will fundamentally change core gameplay features please don't make a system where I can buy as many SP as I want and just pay to win.
You cant buy as much as you want, you can only buy as much as it is available and as much as you can afford. And if skill points are worthless then why would anyone sell them? Do you have any more ambiguous assertions?
In answer to your replies -
1) Why would you need to buy a toon from the Bazaar to farm it for SP - You just have to be prepared not to progress from the skill point you have reached (stagnate)
2) I was Illustrating how I would still buy the dual training but use them to farm SP off my ALTs (then they would stagnate)
3) At the Bazaar SP are NOT sold, whole characters with SP are - if you really want to make buying easier create a toon packager that would allow the character to be traded on the market in game - that much more accessible.
4) If I intend to farm SP for profit then it's a good bet that many others will do the same - This may be an "ambiguous assertion" or to be correct "an appeal to an anonymous authority" but as I said I think making a profit & saving real life monies will encourage lots of producers. Market forces will balance things out - SO - there will be as many as I want to buy as long as I have money to do so - That's ISK or REAL-LIFE money - and that's PAY TO WIN
|
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
35
|
Posted - 2015.11.30 22:03:35 -
[5972] - Quote
@Iowa Banshee
For the sake of readability I am not going to quote the wall of text, assume I did.
1) We are not on the same page on this topic, I don't understand what you were trying to say I guess.
2) Ok, this point I consider a benefit, and exactly what I would do if TSP go live.
What people choose to ignore is the massive benefit for CCP trough this system. Currently a trade on bazar is payed for with a plex, so they get 15-20$ somewhere in the transaction. Money for CCP = good for EvE. But this is all they get / transaction, regardless of the characters SP's.
With TSP for each 500k SP CCP will receive 1/3 +/- of a plex. Considering the average SP a character has on the bazar is somewhere between 5m and 15m SP CCP will get paid a lot more for the same amount of SP transaction. It doesn't matter if the person buying SP uses ISK or personal wealth, somewhere in the chain CCP does get paid.
3) I don't want to make character buying easy, I would prefer to get rid of it. "Choices and consequences" argument, I find it absurd that a pilot can double dip after a scam and make a profit again by selling the character and have zero consequences after committing a "crime". Scamming is fine, AWOXING is fine, but how many posts argue this eliminates consequences when in fact it strengthens it?!
4) Define WIN in eve, then I can respond to this point.
NOTE: it's worth about 1/3 of a plex for CCP, that's more then worthless, no? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1750
|
Posted - 2015.11.30 23:29:41 -
[5973] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:4) If I intend to farm SP for profit then it's a good bet that many others will do the same - This may be an "ambiguous assertion" or to be correct "an appeal to an anonymous authority" but as I said I think making a profit & saving real life monies will encourage lots of producers. Market forces will balance things out - SO - there will be as many as I want to buy as long as I have money to do so - That's ISK or REAL-LIFE money - and that's PAY TO WIN You can buy things in game so therefore the game is pay to win? Or is it SP specifically and we just went back into "SP is winning" and further advocating the ideal of sub time alone being deserving of "victory"? |
joehillbilly
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 07:48:51 -
[5974] - Quote
I have been listening to the meta on podcasts. I did a quick search for the aurum protests. I had one hit on the search from 2011.
I remember well the outrage at the idea that aurum might be used to buy SP. There were protests at all of the trade hubs. It took me 15 minutes of constant jump button pushing to get through the gate into Jita. I ended up salvaging at Amarr. I had to turn off almost all graphics functions (almost like playing jet on commodore 64). I was getting many thank yous in system for helpiing to reduce lag. I got a free pass for salvaging as ships were destroyed around me for salvaging. Ships were self destructing everywhere. Ships were being destroyed everywhere. Millions of volleys were fired at the monument in amarr, myself included.
The CEO of CCP apologized and retracted the program for a good amount of time. The only thing you could get with aurum was clothes and goggles. Now, with the "new" generation of gamers; they get many perks that got new players dead when I started.
Myself I was totally taken aback with the iteron changes. I had trained an awful long time for a newb to get gallente industrial 5 so my corp could mine more efficiently without cans being stolen or expiring. The new system put you in an iteron that could carry more ore with basic rigs and modules than a tech 2 rigged and tech 2 moduled iteron 5. something like 60 days shot in the ass.
The great equalizer had been training time. Now, well, the only equalizer is how many plex you have or can purchase. The last I heard CCP plans to implement this program. A great feeling of accomplishment is lost. I was extremely proud of how i managed to minimize lost training time. My SP is very high compared to players with similar time in game. I spent a large portion of my isk having a clone with lvl 5 learning implants. I spent a lot of time grinding missions trying to improve my standings, simply for a clone. I learned about estell arador corp after having greater than 9 with several agents to only reach 6 with the factions. I even ran numerous cosmos missions. Now clones are free to anyone anywhere
When I started i had to be able to make enough isk to buy training to train for pvp. I didn't know about plex, wouldn't have been able to afford it, unfortunatly. There was a whole short term long term training program to be able to afford to stay in the game. Imagine my surprise when I realised that "gun mining" in missions made more minerals faster than mining at my level of training. many level 3's and 4's were run to simply salvage them. Had to train diplomacy so i wouldn't get killed in amarr space. Ironically apanake was my home system, lol.
All of these changes allow very new players to attain levels that would have taken older players years to attain. I didn't understand the term bitter vet until selling SP for in essence aurum is being actively pushed again and surprisingly supported by a lot of players. It sounds like eve has a large turnover of players or a lot of "DILIGAF" type players.
I disagree at many levels with this program. I understand the need for new players to keep the game going. I wonder how many old guys have left. I wonder how these changes have influenced what would have been "lifers" in the game.
I could have saved almost 360 dollars in subscription fees if i'd waited 2 years to start playing,
The better corps used to have 50, 60, 85 million SP requirements just to apply. That meant they had at least a few years in game. Now a player could attain the same level of effective SP in about 2 less years.
Many of the players I know, that started at a similar time, have stopped logging on. I have made some new friends and this in no way reflects on them. The many hours/years of comradery are lost due to the changes that have diminished their sense of accomplishment. Some stopped logging in as enough of their friends have been absent. We have a chat in game that stays open and only has one person in it at a time or is empty.
Mike Azaria's school bus and similar efforts allow the equalizer of training time to stay in place and offer new players an opportunity to have more "experience" sooner. That is fellowship and encourages the cooperation social side of the game.
I've taken too much time on this. I can only hope the powers that be read this and it somehow change their paradigm to remember the great aurum protest and find other methods. Mike Azariah, and others whose names i don't remember at this time, have shown insight and offered examples.
I am new in my current corp and it in no way speaks of or for them. This is my personal opinion, it is influenced by the many pilots I have encountered, flown against or with over the last 4 1/2 years.
Fly smart, when safe isn't an option. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6861
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 08:07:48 -
[5975] - Quote
joehillbilly wrote:The many hours/years of comradery are lost Ouch, I feel sorry that you have to reevaluate your previous lifestyle outcomes
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
35
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 08:37:37 -
[5976] - Quote
joehillbilly wrote:
The great equalizer had been training time. Now, well, the only equalizer is how many plex you have or can purchase. The last I heard CCP plans to implement this program. A great feeling of accomplishment is lost. I was extremely proud of how i managed to minimize lost training time. My SP is very high compared to players with similar time in game. I spent a large portion of my isk having a clone with lvl 5 learning implants. I spent a lot of time grinding missions trying to improve my standings, simply for a clone. I learned about estell arador corp after having greater than 9 standings with several agents to only reach 6 with the factions. I even ran numerous cosmos missions. Now clones are free to anyone anywhere
So how do you feel about the character bazaar? |
Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
42
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 10:52:37 -
[5977] - Quote
joehillbilly wrote:I have been listening to the meta on podcasts. I did a quick search for the aurum protests. I had one hit on the search from 2011.
I remember well the outrage at the idea that aurum might be used to buy SP. There were protests at all of the trade hubs. It took me 15 minutes of constant jump button pushing to get through the gate into Jita. I ended up salvaging at Amarr. I had to turn off almost all graphics functions (almost like playing jet on commodore 64). I was getting many thank yous in system for helpiing to reduce lag. I got a free pass for salvaging as ships were destroyed around me. Ships were self destructing everywhere. Ships were being destroyed everywhere. Millions of volleys were fired at the monument in amarr, myself included. I saw mining ships appear to be mining the monument. There were rumors of a titan in Jita. Both related to how over loaded the servers were.
The CEO of CCP apologized and retracted the program for a good amount of time. The only thing you could get with aurum was clothes and goggles. Now, with the "new" generation of gamers; they get many perks that got new players dead when I started.
Fly smart, when safe isn't an option.
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jun/05/world-of-darkness-the-inside-story-mmo-ccp-white-wolf
Microtransactions and 'monocle-gate'
The development difficulties were only part of the Incarna problem. According to sources, CCP management had decided to introduce microtransactions, unbeknownst to most of the rank and file, charging real money for cosmetic items with which to customise character avatars. This is a familiar feature in online games, but usually a new outfit for a player character will cost $15-20. CCP decided to charge much more. The most notorious example was a monocle costing $70. The price tag infuriated fans kick-starting a major pricing controversy that would go on to become known as Monocle-gate.
The CEO had members of the fiction writing team put the apology together - he was either so out of touch, so arrogant, that he couldnGÇÖt find the words himself
Eventually CEO Hilmar Veigar P+¬tursson issued an apology to the players. But even this short appeasement wasnGÇÖt what it seemed; according to Blood, Petursson didnGÇÖt actually write it.
GÇ£He had members of our storyline team GÇô a group responsible for writing in-game content and fiction GÇô put it together,GÇ¥ he says. GÇ£He was either so out of touch, so arrogant, or perhaps both, that he couldnGÇÖt find the words to say himself. They bailed him out big time.GÇ¥ |
Kia Lafemme2
DEFCON 5. Defenders Of EVE Alliance
7
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 11:38:09 -
[5978] - Quote
Hate the idea. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6861
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 13:19:50 -
[5979] - Quote
joehillbilly wrote:I spent a large portion of my isk having a clone with lvl 5 learning implants. I spent a lot of time grinding missions trying to improve my standings, simply for a clone. I learned about estell arador corp after having greater than 9 standings with several agents to only reach 6 with the factions. I even ran numerous cosmos missions. Now clones are free to anyone anywhere You want the estell arador people to get nuked so you can feel the achievement?
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
250
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 15:12:07 -
[5980] - Quote
joehillbilly wrote: I spent a large portion of my isk having a clone with lvl 5 learning implants. I spent a lot of time grinding missions trying to improve my standings, simply for a clone. I learned about estell arador corp after having greater than 9 standings with several agents to only reach 6 with the factions. I even ran numerous cosmos missions. Now clones are free to anyone anywhere
You only ever needed corp standings to get jump clones faction was not needed (only gave more options for what stations they where available at)
As long as you where not shoot on sight povi null sec was a place one could make clones with out standing.
and I hope 200-400 million isk isn't a large portion of your isk amount if you really ran missions for that long. |
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Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
48
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 15:58:41 -
[5981] - Quote
Rat Scout wrote:@Iowa Banshee
For the sake of readability I am not going to quote the wall of text, assume I did.
1) We are not on the same page on this topic, I don't understand what you were trying to say I guess.
2) Ok, this point I consider a benefit, and exactly what I would do if TSP go live.
What people choose to ignore is the massive benefit for CCP trough this system. Currently a trade on bazar is payed for with a plex, so they get 15-20$ somewhere in the transaction. Money for CCP = good for EvE. But this is all they get / transaction, regardless of the characters SP's.
With TSP for each 500k SP CCP will receive 1/3 +/- of a plex. Considering the average SP a character has on the bazar is somewhere between 5m and 15m SP CCP will get paid a lot more for the same amount of SP transaction. It doesn't matter if the person buying SP uses ISK or personal wealth, somewhere in the chain CCP does get paid.
3) I don't want to make character buying easy, I would prefer to get rid of it. "Choices and consequences" argument, I find it absurd that a pilot can double dip after a scam and make a profit again by selling the character and have zero consequences after committing a "crime". Scamming is fine, AWOXING is fine, but how many posts argue this eliminates consequences when in fact it strengthens it?!
4) Define WIN in eve, then I can respond to this point.
NOTE: it's worth about 1/3 of a plex for CCP, that's more then worthless, no?
1) Are we on the same topic? - You asked for a downside I gave one. You said you would reply in 140 characters and didn't
2) If CCP wants more money - just say we need more money & up the cost of subscriptions/Plex
3) I have no complaint about character selling - just Skill Point selling
4) That's "pay to win" - saying define 'win' is meaningless when it has an alternate meaning when referring to a games financial model.
Name a single* in-game item that gives advantage that cannot be bought with ISK/Cash other than Skill Points -- When you can buy SP the game will become Pay To Win
[ Don't say buy a toon at Bazaar --> It's out of game, It's a salve to stop out of game account purchases, It replaces an ALT, it's not multiple packets of SP and it has a hard limit on the number of SP it could have acquired over its life ]
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Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
48
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 16:43:03 -
[5982] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:4) If I intend to farm SP for profit then it's a good bet that many others will do the same - This may be an "ambiguous assertion" or to be correct "an appeal to an anonymous authority" but as I said I think making a profit & saving real life monies will encourage lots of producers. Market forces will balance things out - SO - there will be as many as I want to buy as long as I have money to do so - That's ISK or REAL-LIFE money - and that's PAY TO WIN You can buy things in game so therefore the game is pay to win? Or is it SP specifically and we just went back into "SP is winning" and further advocating the ideal of sub time alone being deserving of "victory"?
Yes it is SP specifically: Not the whole package of SP wrapped in a character that will replace one of your alts. Not the imaginary SP that you seem to think are tied to winning - remember experience is not tied to SP But the SP that are the only thing preventing real life money being the deciding factor on in game advantage.
You can buy everything in the game EXCEPT Skill Points -- That's the Point of ALL the Con arguments referring to Pay 2 Win
You can talk about sub time/ deserving victory / SP is winning / Bazaar purchases / experience over SP --- it doesn't matter -- if you don't get that its about letting go of the only non-tradable item that is preventing anyone from buying EVERYTHING needed for advantage you will never get it. |
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
35
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 17:14:14 -
[5983] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:4) If I intend to farm SP for profit then it's a good bet that many others will do the same - This may be an "ambiguous assertion" or to be correct "an appeal to an anonymous authority" but as I said I think making a profit & saving real life monies will encourage lots of producers. Market forces will balance things out - SO - there will be as many as I want to buy as long as I have money to do so - That's ISK or REAL-LIFE money - and that's PAY TO WIN You can buy things in game so therefore the game is pay to win? Or is it SP specifically and we just went back into "SP is winning" and further advocating the ideal of sub time alone being deserving of "victory"? Yes it is SP specifically: Not the whole package of SP wrapped in a character that will replace one of your alts. Not the imaginary SP that you seem to think are tied to winning - remember experience is not tied to SP But the SP that are the only thing preventing real life money being the deciding factor on in game advantage. You can buy everything in the game EXCEPT Skill Points -- That's the Point of ALL the Con arguments referring to Pay 2 Win You can talk about sub time/ deserving victory / SP is winning / Bazaar purchases / experience over SP --- it doesn't matter -- if you don't get that its about letting go of the only non-tradable item that is preventing anyone from buying EVERYTHING needed for advantage you will never get it.
Ok it's clear to me now, you are wrong. |
Escobar Sr
Gang Bang You're Dead Happy Cartel
1
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 18:08:08 -
[5984] - Quote
So, to get things straight, as most people who are against this put it:
- If I, a new EvE player who tried it in Trial, decide to cash my account with @500$ in plex, sell and get +-25B in ISK, go on the Bazaar and buy a 50Mil SP toon, it's okay. Even if it has a bad reputation etc, even if I don't know wtf I'm doing in a ship, for everybody who'll see me behind that Chart, it's okay. For a few weeks/months, until everybody acknowledges the new Owner, it's okay. - EvE online, through the eyes of one of my best friend is exactly like this:
"You don't need to harvest experience from game, you just need some ISK from time to time to afford ships and modules and implants and whatnot, but besides that, your game presence is not needed. You can PLEX for 2 Years straight, and come back from time to time to check your Skill Queue to have something in there. EvE Online is not like any other RPG in which you must grind, like WoW for example. In WoW, with boosts, you can reach max level in less than one week. You can get the gear you like, it gives you the awesome feeling of being able to do everything. Until... Until you reach specific raids and dungeons. In there you see who knows what and who's Daddy's Boy/Girl."
- Even if CCP implement this TSP stuff, there is one thing they won't be able to sell for Money, Plex, ISK, AUR, which is game experience. An old player will know what a ship is capable of, bait fits, troll fits, good fits, bad fits etc, will know what rewards does a complex yield, will know which rats trigger the next spawn, will know relic sites are better than data sites, will know when to de-aggro and save his ship, will know when to use a Booster, and many other examples. Game experience is the most important part, compared to whatever you will imply being pay to win. As a matter of fact, I would love to see some EvE Leeroy Jenkins here, just to prove a point.
- Instead of implementing TSP, why not give implants that give a certain amount of attributes, for a specific amount of time, for a specific account. Kinda like when I made my account. I received an Implant that gave me +17 to all attributes, the Advanced Cerebral Accelerator. Was gaining SP like crazy. Instead of making this 7 days, why not making the same as for Skill packets, based on the total skill points trained before consumption:
0 GÇô 5 million skillpoints = Implant of +17 until 5mil SPs 5 GÇô 50 million skillpoints = Implant of +14 until 50 Mil SPs 50 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = Implant of +11 until 80 Mil SPs > 80 million skillpoints = Implant of +7 (like the Elite ones released couple years ago) until further notice
In my honest opinion, this would make things easier and will solve many complaints. Just like in real life (as some may say), if you did wrong, it's forgiven but not forgot. |
joehillbilly
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 19:50:38 -
[5985] - Quote
Alavaria Fera, 1 To frame an argument, does not imply regret. Disappointment, yes. 1) Estel Arador was a unique solution within the game dynamic that could have been implemented at a much earlier time. For whatever reason, it was not.
Rat Scout, Never liked it. Unfortunately, it was a rational response to real RMT issues. Don't know a better solution. It appears that people buying characters in the bazaar are older more experienced pilots. The people I know in game that do buy characters were in several years before buying additional characters.
Suede, I sincerely appreciate the details. Could not find anything in here. I only went on what I remembered other pilots talking about at the time. Didn't know about a lot of out of game resources at the time.
Lady Rift, I had started running navy missions for gallente before I understood faction standings. Switched to sisters and trained diploamcy. Cosmos missions helped some. At that time, I did not know about the provi options.
I am glad that so much discussion is being had on this topic. The jump timer rules were changed because of large discussions like this one. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1750
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 19:53:01 -
[5986] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Yes it is SP specifically: Not the whole package of SP wrapped in a character that will replace one of your alts. Not the imaginary SP that you seem to think are tied to winning - remember experience is not tied to SP So what's the problem then? Since you've taken the initiative to make this claim despite knowing it's a false representation of my position, lets have you justify it. You kinda need to since you just did the opposite. You just said they aren't winning, but defined this as pay to win. Make up your mind or justify how buying an aspect that doesn't convey victory is paying to win.
Iowa Banshee wrote:But the SP that are the only thing preventing real life money being the deciding factor on in game advantage. Bullshit. Money was never not the deciding factor. SP comes from paid accounts. Non-paid accounts can't generate it. The longer you've had your money put into accessing the game (or in the case of PLEX someone else') the more potential SP you have. My advantage over a new player is 5 years worth of sub price.
Iowa Banshee wrote:You can buy everything in the game EXCEPT Skill Points -- That's the Point of ALL the Con arguments referring to Pay 2 Win And the point of all the Pro comments in opposition to that reasoning is that your justification is a self serving twist of facts trying to make this P2W apply selectively to this idea but somehow not to:
1) Veteran players with the advantages of SP, which are definitively characterized as winning 2) The fact that money does and has for some time equaled sp due to needing an active sub to accrue it
Iowa Banshee wrote:You can talk about sub time/ deserving victory / SP is winning / Bazaar purchases / experience over SP --- it doesn't matter -- if you don't get that its about letting go of the only non-tradable item that is preventing anyone from buying EVERYTHING needed for advantage you will never get it. There is nothing to get beyond realizing that some people don't want their veteran ivory towers to be encroached by others who haven't waited years for reasons that have no justification besides "it's always been that way." They'll gloss over, as you just did, the fact that those advantages are a) not insurmountable, else the SP system would in itself be gamebreaking to begin with, and b) open to anyone who had a desire and will to take advantage of the game's isk earning avenues to eliminate any real money need.
SP is only immutable because the current rules make it so, not because it needs to be in order to function. If you don't believe SP is winning, you're holding on to a justification that holds no weight. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1750
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 20:25:50 -
[5987] - Quote
Actually lets just simplify the questions a bit on this pay to win thing:
How is it ok for vets to have experience and SP while on the same field as new players with neither, but only allow those new players the ability to actively seek parity in one of those two aspects?
If that's acceptable doesn't that basically state SP isn't so important as to need the special "protection" of being time gate only?
If not acceptable, why would we argue so hard to maintain that dynamic?
For me the current dynamic is acceptable. I DO NOT see SP as winning. As a result I don't see an issue with someone having more SP because:
a) They bought PLEX b) They earn isk faster c) They are part of a certain social group d) They played longer
More importantly I don't see any as specifically more deserving SP than the others. Nor do I think the supposedly negative possibilities with a) invalidate the potentially positive possibilities with b) or c). |
Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
42
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 22:00:50 -
[5988] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Rat Scout wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Why don't you try reading it again so you'll see the part you quote is in the : Argument against the new system ..... yes exactly. Just to be clear I am in favor of the new system, and every single argument against it can be refuted in 140 characters or less. Want proof? List the reasons you feel are valid against the new SP trade and I will respond after a nap. :ps I can see how my fail quote snip suggests the opposite, meant to trim that line as well, but my response still stands, the "Con" crowd keep bringing up the "consequences" argument when in reality there is less with the current system then the new one. Stagnation: If you could play for free & not bother training would you ? I have 2 subscriptions with characters @ 49/24/27 Mill SP & 45/20/18 Mill SP. Training Acct 1 main for a carrier pilot, 2nd Scanning/ Pi, 3rd industrial / market seller Training Acct 2 main for industrial command (already a booster), 2nd & 3rd scanning / Pi alts Since they were introduced I have always used 1 multi-train per month (bought with ISK at the market) - and - in addition about every 2 -3 months I dual training on my 2nd account.
- I don't need really a carrier pilot it's just something I want to achieve - I'm in WH space & happy where I am. - My pi Alts are good enough at their jobs - I don't need an industrial command to be in a Rorqual - If I was moving to low or null sec but for the WH an orca will do. If it is possible to farm SP at a profit (say 10% return - market forces dictate that they need to make a profit for anyone to sell them). With TSP income and what I make in WH space - I will be able to play the game for free. Of course I don't want to stagnate or actually give up my training goals BUT this may give me a better goal... and playing for free may make stagnation a sweet alternative to continual training. Just one step towards the ultimate aim of any free to play financial model - getting the players to pay for progression ( if you have to pay for it then it is less likely to happen ). Pay To WIn : I would prefer -- If you don't like the bazaar - sell a $40 item to package an alt for sale on the market -- Think newbies need to train faster - introduce boosters with diminishing return -- Upset with your past training choices - sell a $20 item for remapping Don't make the effort of gaining skills worthless by selling skill points. I don't want TSP as proposed because it will fundamentally change core gameplay features please don't make a system where I can buy as many SP as I want and just pay to win.
If you are paying a subscription to CCP, everything you paid in the subscription should be all in, it is bit silly that you have to pay again for like an pair of jeans or some other ingame item. CCP is going more Pay to Win having a pay to buy SP is just a bad idea it total wrongs the way eve online is.
Just a shame that CCP only cares more about the money then it paying player base and not to listen to it paying player base, |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6861
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 22:45:47 -
[5989] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Actually lets just simplify the questions a bit on this pay to win thing:
How is it ok for vets to have experience and SP while on the same field as new players with neither, but only allow those new players the ability to actively seek parity in one of those two aspects?
If that's acceptable doesn't that basically state SP isn't so important as to need the special "protection" of being time gate only?
If not acceptable, why would we argue so hard to maintain that dynamic? Because when you hit a certain SP number, achievement unlocked. And gamerscore.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
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Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
51
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Posted - 2015.12.01 22:48:56 -
[5990] - Quote
Rat Scout wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:[quote=Tyberius Franklin][quote=Iowa Banshee]SNIP Ok it's clear to me now, you are wrong.
Ok It's clear to me now, you are a troll
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Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
51
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Posted - 2015.12.01 23:02:22 -
[5991] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Actually lets just simplify the questions a bit on this pay to win thing:
How is it ok for vets to have experience and SP while on the same field as new players with neither, but only allow those new players the ability to actively seek parity in one of those two aspects?
If that's acceptable doesn't that basically state SP isn't so important as to need the special "protection" of being time gate only?
If not acceptable, why would we argue so hard to maintain that dynamic?
For me the current dynamic is acceptable. I DO NOT see SP as winning. As a result I don't see an issue with someone having more SP because:
a) They bought PLEX b) They earn isk faster c) They are part of a certain social group d) They played longer
More importantly I don't see any as specifically more deserving SP than the others. Nor do I think the supposedly negative possibilities with a) invalidate the potentially positive possibilities with b) or c).
I see..... You simply don't understand the terminology
Pay to Win is a financial model that a games company can operate under Subscribe to play if a different financial model a games company can operate under Free to play is another financial model a games company can operate under
Search for Daniel Kaszor & http://business.financialpost.com - He has a series of articles about MMO financial models and the detrimental effects on players of switching models. In particular the switch from subscription to pay to win - I think the frereium may be a better alternative for the player base
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1767
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Posted - 2015.12.01 23:57:48 -
[5992] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:I see..... You simply don't understand the terminology No, you're making a mistake in your conclusion as will be demonstrated.
Iowa Banshee wrote:Pay to Win is a financial model that a games company can operate under Subscribe to play if a different financial model a games company can operate under Free to play is another financial model a games company can operate under No, P2W is not a financial model itself. P2W is a means of encouraging F2P players to spend more. P2W is just a side effect of F2P games trying to create incentives for players to part with their money for an advantage.
One of the core tenets there is that the only means to have an ability or advantage that is only able to be gained through real money. That isn't the case as proposed for TSP (and is quite frankly already the case for time gated SP as things stand). One cannot exchange real money for TSP unless creating it from their own SP. And further they must do so for loss if they intent to re-inject it for other skills.
So basically one can pay for isk at the expense of the SP they gain over time. So essentially PLEX with more effort and potentially more volatile return.
For the buyer of the TSP cask via PLEX is an option, but as stated there is no reasoning that justifies the idea of SP needing to be treated differently than anything else aside from appeals to the way it has been and inconsistent measures of importance (it's not too important to deny new players, but is too important to allow them access?).
Iowa Banshee wrote:Search for Daniel Kaszor & http://business.financialpost.com - He has a series of articles about MMO financial models and the detrimental effects on players of switching models. In particular the switch from subscription to pay to win - I think the frereium may be a better alternative for the player base Sure, I'll take a look, but honestly given the issues with the statements thus far I don't think we'll come to an agreement. |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
51
|
Posted - 2015.12.02 00:35:28 -
[5993] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:I see..... You simply don't understand the terminology No, you're making a mistake in your conclusion as will be demonstrated. Iowa Banshee wrote:Pay to Win is a financial model that a games company can operate under Subscribe to play if a different financial model a games company can operate under Free to play is another financial model a games company can operate under No, P2W is not a financial model itself. P2W is a means of encouraging players to spend more. P2W is just a side effect of games trying to create incentives for players to part with their money for an advantage. One of the core tenets there is that the only means to have a certain advantages is real money. That isn't the case as proposed for buying TSP (and is quite frankly already the case for time gated SP as things stand). One cannot exchange real money for TSP unless creating it from their own SP via extractors. And further they must do so for loss if they intent to re-inject it for other skills. So basically one can pay for isk at the expense of the SP they gain over time. So essentially PLEX with more effort and potentially more volatile return. For the buyer of the TSP cask via PLEX is an option, but as stated there is no reasoning that justifies the idea of SP needing to be treated differently than anything else aside from appeals to the way it has been and inconsistent measures of importance (it's not too important to deny new players, but is too important to allow them access?). Further real money cost isn't mandated either. Rather any real money solution requires sufficient in game earners to make the system work. Iowa Banshee wrote:Search for Daniel Kaszor & http://business.financialpost.com - He has a series of articles about MMO financial models and the detrimental effects on players of switching models. In particular the switch from subscription to pay to win - I think the frereium may be a better alternative for the player base Sure, I'll take a look, but honestly given the issues with the statements thus far I don't think we'll come to an agreement.
Then read this @ http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/08/13/separating-free-to-play-and-pay-to-win
When the quote - " ItGÇÖs when the GÇ£wallet warriorsGÇ¥ always win that causes other players to get frustrated and bail out "
When this concept gets applied to the game players will leave |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1767
|
Posted - 2015.12.02 00:38:36 -
[5994] - Quote
The quote I agree with; what I don't agree with is the idea that this change creates that scenario.
Does that help clear things up a bit? |
MrsKaye
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2015.12.02 01:12:36 -
[5995] - Quote
From a casual players perspective, this is a GREAT idea.
To those who don't agree, what's the real difference between this and the bazaar? The Bazaar is weak with stupid character names and bad character history that isn't even relevant to the new player.
The game really needs new blood anyway, and should stay competitive with 100Million dollar kickstarter projects that won't require skill points at all to fly ships. This feature will keep new players. |
joehillbilly
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
4
|
Posted - 2015.12.02 06:16:30 -
[5996] - Quote
Reading some of the posts, it looks like eve will become "world of spaceships" . no more mining, just buy "premium currency". Logi is nerfed (why not just kill it off). manufacturing won't be needed, CCP can just let you buy the ships. All of those crafty haulers won't be needed as there will be no manufacturing.
The idea of the lore and the only common thread left is going to be irrelevant. It doesn't make spaceships go boom faster. PLEX will be an active requirement just to stay relatively competitive. Kind of like the backwards move for games on touch screen devices. 2D is easier to digest and the easy access of that technology make it another mind numbing experience.
The idea of instant gratification is king. I like eve because it is a journey as much as a game. Lets just be like all of the other MMO's. Of course, the turn over will be high, but hey, let it role the cash until it burns out in 3-5 years.
Lets just milk eve for cash until Valkyrie and gunjack displace it in revenue.
How this ever came to the fore front of a game that was based on history, lore and a common thread that all players had to endure. Everyone could relate to and even respect the diligence of those who trained regularly.
Oh, well. I guess PvP is the only real cash generator for CCP. So, pew pew goes the multi faceted sandbox of old eve and in comes the straight line logic tree of show me the money. Pay to win or not. The older comments of dumbing down the game are gaining more relevance.
It appears that the squeeky wheels will win as the older guys have no approval of the whole social network model of mob rule.
I am glad to have the friends online that I have found as long as they last before boredom runs them off as well. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6862
|
Posted - 2015.12.02 06:34:16 -
[5997] - Quote
joehillbilly wrote:Lets just milk eve for cash until Valkyrie and gunjack displace it in revenue. Is that what we said about World of "psssh" Darkness and Dust "Laser Headshot" and/or Legion?
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
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Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
40
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Posted - 2015.12.02 17:28:23 -
[5998] - Quote
Everybody who is suggesting that TSP's are a bad thing somehow ignore the fact that everything they complain about already exists in EvE via the character bazar. Not a single complaint is strictly caused by the changes, but rather current flaws in the game are used as a logical fallacy.
I cant respond with sensible arguments to your complaints because they are true today and will be whether CCP goes ahead with this version of TSP or not.
Bitter-vet syndrome is not a good excuse to throttle progression when the possibility of improvement for EvE is at least 50%
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A Ingus
Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships
72
|
Posted - 2015.12.02 17:47:01 -
[5999] - Quote
Rat Scout wrote:Everybody who is suggesting that TSP's are a bad thing somehow ignore the fact that everything they complain about already exists in EvE via the character bazar. Not a single complaint is strictly caused by the changes, but rather current flaws in the game are used as a logical fallacy. I cant respond with sensible arguments to your complaints because they are true today and will be whether CCP goes ahead with this version of TSP or not. Bitter-vet syndrome is not a good excuse to throttle progression when the possibility of improvement for EvE is at least 50% There have been so many posts back and forth about how the character bazaar is not the same thing. The logical fallacy for your point is that if it was the same thing there would be no reason to introduce TSPs. There would be no OP.
Also, you can characterize all the critiques of the OP as bittervet syndrome that throttles progression all you want, it does not make it so.
Finally, you can pull a fifty percent chance of TSPs improving the game, whatever that is to you, out of your posterior all you want. It doesn't conceal the fact that you just made up your own statistic. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
203
|
Posted - 2015.12.02 18:14:26 -
[6000] - Quote
Rat Scout wrote:Everybody who is suggesting that TSP's are a bad thing somehow ignore the fact that everything they complain about already exists in EvE via the character bazar. Not a single complaint is strictly caused by the changes, but rather current flaws in the game are used as a logical fallacy. I cant respond with sensible arguments to your complaints because they are true today and will be whether CCP goes ahead with this version of TSP or not. Bitter-vet syndrome is not a good excuse to throttle progression when the possibility of improvement for EvE is at least 50%
It is kind of pointless to discuss with you when you start with lie, but I have no problem to stress it again. On character bazaar you can buy characters. You do not have option to buy SP and inject it to your original character.
And a whole issue does not even have to do much with bitter vet syndrome but with lack of consistency in game fundamentals which will definitely make people ask themselves do they really want to pay for the service where they cannot make long term plans as who know what else can be changed, obviously nothing is sacred anymore in the "rush for gold".
Let alone that it will fail miserably in getting large number of players and keeping them in the game.
Edit: And LOL for 50% estimation. Really funny :) . BTW seems you forgot that this came became what it was at its peak because CCP actually listened to those bitter vet players and those bitter vets were the biggest reason why it grew. We can see the trend and direction after they started listening others or not listening to anyone at all.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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