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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
69
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Posted - 2015.10.16 10:35:14 -
[1561] - Quote
Skebet wrote:To me the saddest part of all of this is that CCP itself doesn't seem to understand that Eve is not a spaceship simulation game; that is, characters are not meaningless bags of fungible SP. Eve is a role-playing game; each character has a unique history, reputation, quirks, oddities - a real personality of its own. If you want to control a character completely, make it yourself. Buying and selling entire characters works because each character is preserved as a unique entity. Devolving characters into sacks of points that can be bought and sold with granularity will completely destroy any sense of identity and, perhaps worse, any individual sense of progression.
Hilmar, the rest of you, please see what it means to create a true role playing universe and then potentially destroy its sense of place and soul. Realize this is a mistake and don't do it. The long term consequences will be dire. Please believe us and stop this plan.
With love and respect Skebet
I believe the real problem is not that CCP does not understand that. Sadly I think that CCP do understand, but act upon that would be act against a playerbase that is actually the part that dont understand that.
Incarna, WiS, Content, Immersion in general, it is all compromised by the idea of favouring a sector of the playerbase in detriment of another.
There was not only one person in these forums to use the argument that "people dont play MMOs for lore and immersion, but for progression in content and pvp".
It is indeed sad.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
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TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
1293
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Posted - 2015.10.16 10:36:43 -
[1562] - Quote
I don't even really care about being able to buy SP for any char. Even if we consider the character bazaar the be an equal thing, which it isn't. There's a lot of hoops to jump through to buy a character.
Anyway, what I'm concerned with is how this is going to essentially **** over the entire skill system. Why have a skill system to begin with if newbies can simply pay 10 bucks and advance a month?
Let me explain. A while ago there was some racing game, I think it was Forza, that introduced a way to buy new cars with real money instead of having to grind for it. You could still earn all the cars without paying by just grinding hours into the game so it wasn't really exclusive content, but the grinding would require a good 500 hours of play time before you got to the best car. In other words, the grind was purposely made so long that just investing some money sees like a more decent alternative to getting that shiny car.
Going back to EVE, the skill system has always been the backbone of the game. Everyone progresses roughly at the same speed and because it's roughly the same for everyone, there has never been a reason to really complain about the training length. However, that becomes an issue when you start offering people the option to buy unallocated SP, because now suddenly that long training time is directly used to encourage micro transactions. You're basically telling people that they can either wait a month to fly a Battleship, or pay 10 bucks and fly it right now. If you're going to introduce a system like this you need to take a very long hard look at the training times as they stand today. You're obviously trying to cater to the instant gratification crowd, so maybe a skill that takes 60 days to reach level 5 isn't really fit for this day and age anymore. If you're trying to cater to that particular crowd, why not half all training times across the board and maybe it will make the buying SP thing a bit more balanced.
My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things!
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4136
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Posted - 2015.10.16 10:37:10 -
[1563] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Tex Raynor wrote:And for those claiming this make your character OP-pay-to-win... unless you can magically fly more than 1 ship I fail to find this argument convincing. Ever since I passed 100 mil sp, I have been queuing level 5 skills, in no particular order, which provide marginal benefits. Still die to the blob, still get killed by half-skilled hard counters, still pwn F1 kitchensink fleets... Agree. So why do the players need this pay-to-SP crap? If it was, say, a once-an-year partial skill reallocation I'd say ok, whatever, maybe good maybe bad, who cares. But since it's a whenever-you-pay-us mechanic, I can't help thinking it's stinky and shady as hell... But if you bought it from another player.... Actually you're buying it from CCP twice:
1st time: subscription to train the SP in the first place
2nd time: aurum to transfer them
Fascinating way to milk money, isn't it?
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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Big Lynx
4025
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Posted - 2015.10.16 10:37:11 -
[1564] - Quote
Ripard Teg wrote:
Please do not do this.
THIS |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25327
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Posted - 2015.10.16 10:40:17 -
[1565] - Quote
Big Lynx wrote:Ripard Teg wrote:
Please do not do this.
THIS Agreed, I thought it'd be a cold day in hell before I ever agreed with anything Ripard Teg has to say after eroticagate, yesterday, hell froze over.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
696
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Posted - 2015.10.16 10:40:28 -
[1566] - Quote
Rather than buying skill points, personally I would rather new players be able to complete missions that involved traveling into low and null sec space to accomplish it's objectives, whatever those objectives may be.
Ship specific missions that offered your choice of rewards towards that ships specific "mastery level" in skill point allocation.
So lets say I want to fly a Drake. I go to one of the NPC agents that offer Drake missions. I put down my ISK desposit, like 70 million and I get to fly around this drake with it's mastery level 1, 2, 3 whatever gets decided as the baseline. I get sent to low sec to do a mission chain.
While I'm doing this mission chain I get experience with the drake. I get an idea of a possible fit that indicates at least an idea of how the ship is suppose to be flown. If I complete the mission, I get skill points towards being able to fly one of my own accord whenever and however I want.
This will allow me and anyone else doing these missions for whatever ship they've chosen to get to know if continuing down the path of training for it is indeed something we want to do. Also, it gets us out into the game in dangerous situations really seeing what the game offers. It puts us out in the field so others can try to stop us from accomplishing our objectives. If we get destroyed, we lose the deposit. If we don't complete the mission in time, the ship gets repo'd and we have to limp back to wherever we choose to go in a noob ship or capsule.
Times change, and if the game doesn't change, it wont grow. We already see it's not growing anymore. It's not even stagnant. The numbers are declining (debatable but not going to debate it). This is a drastic change, and CCP is probably considering it because drastic times call for desperate measures.
It's nice that the game has held together so well over the years, but nothing lasts forever. Instead of rolling over and accepting a slow death, CCP is showing it has the balls to make big changes to the core constructs of the game in an effort to give us what we all really want: A more populated EvE.
Now if people would stop threatening to quit or actually quitting the game, a fun game, over silly ideals and principles that ultimately do not negatively effect anything other than their egos and perception of how they personally feel the game should be, then we would stand a real chance at convincing all those newbros who've stepped away to come back and give it another shot.
Throttle back on the knee jerk reactions because Change scares you.
Things are always changing, and the ability to do so is what separates the living from the dead. |
Epic Name
The Scope Gallente Federation
141
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Posted - 2015.10.16 10:45:09 -
[1567] - Quote
Dezray Azizora wrote:75 pages of the bitterest vet tears! I love it!
Also "winning" in eve isn't dictated by your SP it's dictated by your PLAYER skill, does it really frighten you that there might be a bunch of people who are better than you at playing eve that are going to lose there disadvantage to the people who have been playing longer? i hope that CCP does this so i can listen to the vets crying about how unfair it is that they have played for longer and this upstart 2 year old character just whelped them because suddenly it was a level playing field
Cry Me A River people! :D You know it! +1
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Big Lynx
4025
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Posted - 2015.10.16 10:45:12 -
[1568] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Big Lynx wrote:Ripard Teg wrote:
Please do not do this.
THIS Agreed, I thought it'd be a cold day in hell before I ever agreed with anything Ripard Teg has to say after eroticagate, yesterday, hell froze over.
Well, finally I'd have a good reason to put EvE on ice for a long time or forever. |
Eternal Bob
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
42
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Posted - 2015.10.16 10:45:46 -
[1569] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:I could always have a character that accumulated SP at 10x the rate mine had accumulated it; i could go and buy it from the bazzar. No, you could never do that. You could only ever accumulate SP on a character at the speed dictated by the character's attributes. With this change, no such limit exists. By trading SP rather than skills, accumulation speed has no upper limit and only depends on your willingness to shell out cash, and thus you have a situation where you pay to bypass a mechanical limitation GÇö a limitation that is in place in full force in the bazaar (which is why the bazaar doesn't break things).
The limitations on SP accumulation speed will remain for characters whose SP are being harvested. Extra SP will not be generated out of thin air and thus nothing is being broken. |
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1599
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Posted - 2015.10.16 10:50:14 -
[1570] - Quote
Eternal Bob wrote:Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:I could always have a character that accumulated SP at 10x the rate mine had accumulated it; i could go and buy it from the bazzar. No, you could never do that. You could only ever accumulate SP on a character at the speed dictated by the character's attributes. With this change, no such limit exists. By trading SP rather than skills, accumulation speed has no upper limit and only depends on your willingness to shell out cash, and thus you have a situation where you pay to bypass a mechanical limitation GÇö a limitation that is in place in full force in the bazaar (which is why the bazaar doesn't break things). The limitations on SP accumulation speed will remain for characters whose SP are being harvested. Extra SP will not be generated out of thin air and thus nothing is being broken.
You're actively avoiding Tippia's point. |
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Dave Stark
7549
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Posted - 2015.10.16 10:50:34 -
[1571] - Quote
Eternal Bob wrote:Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:I could always have a character that accumulated SP at 10x the rate mine had accumulated it; i could go and buy it from the bazzar. No, you could never do that. You could only ever accumulate SP on a character at the speed dictated by the character's attributes. With this change, no such limit exists. By trading SP rather than skills, accumulation speed has no upper limit and only depends on your willingness to shell out cash, and thus you have a situation where you pay to bypass a mechanical limitation GÇö a limitation that is in place in full force in the bazaar (which is why the bazaar doesn't break things). The limitations on SP accumulation speed will remain for characters whose SP are being harvested. Extra SP will not be generated out of thin air and thus nothing is being broken.
in fact, due to the diminishing returns SP is being thrown in to the void. |
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
1318
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Posted - 2015.10.16 10:53:15 -
[1572] - Quote
After reading Sugar Kyle's (Current CSM member) post at Crossing Zebras it's apparent that CCP really do want to go down this path:
Sugar Kyle at Crossing Zebras wrote:When this was proposed at the CSM summit, I swiveled my chair and asked if they realized that they were undoing the basic structure that characters and game progression worked under. They said that they did. I tried to wrap my head around it. Things would change, meanings would be different, and a shift that feels gradual but enormous would happen and it would carry with it changes that we could not foresee.
For the full story I've linked it below as source:
Source: Conflicted
So sad to see this from CCP and how short their memories are.
[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee"
Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b]
Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
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darmwand
Repo.
233
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Posted - 2015.10.16 10:53:49 -
[1573] - Quote
This is an awful idea. It appears the devs are putting more and more effort into appeasing a crowd that a) does not care about the game and never will and b) would be bad for Eve's general health even if they started playing, thus they come up with quick money-grabbing schemes for the short-tempered and impatient casual players.
A look at the current player numbers should be a warning that maybe, just maybe, the people who play Eve are not interested in an easier, faster-paced and dumber game. Waiting for your skills is part of what makes people (at least me) attached to their characters; I still remember when I had to wait for AWU 5 and the joy I felt once it was trained.
In combination with multi-character training this will pretty much allow people to generate arbitrary amounts of SP out of thin air. Admittedly the price would probably be a bit high at first but then, once this is in the game, making it more affordable is only a matter of a few minor tweaks. This kind of thinking has ruined many a game before and it was the very thing that we protested against back then.
"The pen is mightier than the sword if the sword is very short, and the pen is very sharp."
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Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
696
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Posted - 2015.10.16 10:59:11 -
[1574] - Quote
His point is stupid.
He's saying that because the character that was being trained was adhering to a CCP designated "speed limit" as to how many skill points it was possible to gain per hour, that when I purchase that character via char bazaar it's some how the defacto difference that determines allowable and unallowable.
But when it comes down to it, I'm still personally spending zero time involved with that characters training, so to me, that character is essentially born out of nothing and coming into my ownership with no time cost.
Now his point is "someone had to spend that amount of time administering the training queue" and since it leveled at a finite rate, it's special and OK. But an equivalent amount of possible time within the confines of the speed limit was expended by SOMEONE when a specific character is now benefiting from increased SP thanks to a skill extractor.
His issue seems to be in some backwards separation between character and owner. That even though I can buy a character without my having spent zero time nuturing it's training, that it's OK compared to my spending zero time using someone else's skill points they've sold me to level up one specific character.
It's dumb |
Big Lynx
4027
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Posted - 2015.10.16 10:59:32 -
[1575] - Quote
Maximus Aerelius wrote:After reading Sugar Kyle's (Current CSM member) post at Crossing Zebras it's apparent that CCP really do want to go down this path: Sugar Kyle at Crossing Zebras wrote:When this was proposed at the CSM summit, I swiveled my chair and asked if they realized that they were undoing the basic structure that characters and game progression worked under. They said that they did. I tried to wrap my head around it. Things would change, meanings would be different, and a shift that feels gradual but enormous would happen and it would carry with it changes that we could not foresee. For the full story I've linked it below as source: Source: Conflicted So sad to see this from CCP and how short their memories are.
It seems the main goal of CCP's CEOs is maximum money extraction `from the players and NOT improving the game experience for them. Bad move CCP, bad move.
But as times change and the responsibles of CCP too, I'd say New brooms sweep clean, don't they CCP? |
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1673
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Posted - 2015.10.16 11:00:37 -
[1576] - Quote
skills are not being conjured out of thin air, somebody HAS to train these skills originally.
I dont really care about this change to be honest as my own skill progression is not capped or changed this is just a complete optional thing.
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Dave Stark
7549
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Posted - 2015.10.16 11:01:28 -
[1577] - Quote
darmwand wrote:would be bad for Eve's general health
i love how your post opens with this, and fails to justify it in any way what so ever. |
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
601
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Posted - 2015.10.16 11:01:56 -
[1578] - Quote
Big Lynx wrote:
Well, finally I'd have a good reason to put EvE on ice for a long time or forever.
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JSSix
CRY.NET Nihilists Social Club
15
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Posted - 2015.10.16 11:02:35 -
[1579] - Quote
Ohh Hell No...
one of the most stupid idea ever CCP has cooked up in their labs....
not to mention the deminishing return and of course... a new way to milk money from customer by CCP.
but its just stupid.. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6852
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Posted - 2015.10.16 11:03:07 -
[1580] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Eternal Bob wrote:Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:I could always have a character that accumulated SP at 10x the rate mine had accumulated it; i could go and buy it from the bazzar. No, you could never do that. You could only ever accumulate SP on a character at the speed dictated by the character's attributes. With this change, no such limit exists. By trading SP rather than skills, accumulation speed has no upper limit and only depends on your willingness to shell out cash, and thus you have a situation where you pay to bypass a mechanical limitation GÇö a limitation that is in place in full force in the bazaar (which is why the bazaar doesn't break things). The limitations on SP accumulation speed will remain for characters whose SP are being harvested. Extra SP will not be generated out of thin air and thus nothing is being broken. in fact, due to the diminishing returns SP is being thrown in to the void. SP sinks huh~~
Imagine if we had diminishing returns on isk transfers
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
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Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
696
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Posted - 2015.10.16 11:06:08 -
[1581] - Quote
You know how people are always arguing in that one thread that has like 200 pages about EVE DECLINE RAMPANT?
Where half the dudes are like, it's dying! and the other half are like, "no it's not you have no proof!"
Well uhhhhhhhhhh
this is kind of proof that the "eve is dying" guys are right, dontcha think?
So instead of making matters worse by adversely reacting to the change being adminstered by the people who's very lives rely upon the success of this game via threatening to quit and spewing vitriol, you throttle back a bit and let Jesus, I mean CCP take the wheel on this one?
Obviously game isn't doing so well, so a change is needed. EvE can't retain new players, proven by their willingness to make such a drastic change in an effort to entice new players into wanting to give this game another go and the means to reach a level where they can personally feel satisfied with their ability to perform/contribute in a meaningful manner that convinces them to stick around and become long term subscribers to the beauty this game offers via personal interaction with others flying ships in space.
It doesn't actually hurt any of you. You're just imagining that it will. |
Artemis Ellery Sazas
Shock and Awe Inc.
59
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Posted - 2015.10.16 11:06:32 -
[1582] - Quote
I just threw up in disgust. |
Astroyka
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
179
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Posted - 2015.10.16 11:07:00 -
[1583] - Quote
If the idea that this is for new players, it really isn't.
Looking at the bazaar now and doing the math, the skill packets will be about 250M to 350M ISK each. Your avg newbro will need to be cash rich and committed to playing eve to spend RL cash to advance his/her char.
I doubt there will be many newbro's doing that.
This is for committed players (vets?) who want a new clean char but don't want to create a new account/sub and do it the "hard" way.
Aside from the ISK/$ cost, losing a character's history bothers me. Probably more than it should, but I like the intel I get from seeing the age of a char and its employment history even if there are a lot of assumptions I make from that data.
Astroyka
A Mirkur Draug'Tyr pilot, fighting against slavery in New Eden
www.astroyka.net
@Astroyka
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Dave Stark
7550
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Posted - 2015.10.16 11:07:36 -
[1584] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Eternal Bob wrote:Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:I could always have a character that accumulated SP at 10x the rate mine had accumulated it; i could go and buy it from the bazzar. No, you could never do that. You could only ever accumulate SP on a character at the speed dictated by the character's attributes. With this change, no such limit exists. By trading SP rather than skills, accumulation speed has no upper limit and only depends on your willingness to shell out cash, and thus you have a situation where you pay to bypass a mechanical limitation GÇö a limitation that is in place in full force in the bazaar (which is why the bazaar doesn't break things). The limitations on SP accumulation speed will remain for characters whose SP are being harvested. Extra SP will not be generated out of thin air and thus nothing is being broken. in fact, due to the diminishing returns SP is being thrown in to the void. SP sinks huh~~ Imagine if we had diminishing returns on isk transfers
"today numerous players have been banned by CCP peligro for automating isk transfers of 1 isk at a time to bypass diminishing returns on isk transfers".
edit: i feel the need to point out this is an entirely fabricated quote by me, and nothing of the like has actually occurred... don't want to be a stunt flores mk2. |
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
602
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Posted - 2015.10.16 11:08:06 -
[1585] - Quote
JSSix wrote:Ohh Hell No...
one of the most stupid idea ever CCP has cooked up in their labs....
not to mention the deminishing return and of course... a new way to milk money from customer by CCP.
but its just stupid..
This is the way how to keep cssh flow growing while online is stagnat. |
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
99
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Posted - 2015.10.16 11:08:27 -
[1586] - Quote
I invite anyone who wants to settle their argument once and for all to face a T3 Cruiser by a pilot that may have started playing as long as minimally possible to pilot said cruiser with a Mastery Level 2, in a Racial Frigate with no moludles other than the ones possible with starting skills, and only in a manner consistent with just finished career agent.
Unless you are able to show a real fight that could end up with the Frigate victory, your saying that SP means nothing and only player IRL skill does is just Charismatic Non-Sense.
So it is to say SP is everything, unless you can show a skilled IRL lose to a unskilled players with conditions otherwise identical.
Either means nothing, together they mean something. It is exactly the problem with SP sale. It makes one and another lose ties, therefore, voiding the meaning of both.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
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Dave Stark
7550
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Posted - 2015.10.16 11:10:29 -
[1587] - Quote
Astroyka wrote:If the idea that this is for new players, it really isn't.
Looking at the bazaar now and doing the math, the skill packets will be about 250M to 350M ISK each. Your avg newbro will need to be cash rich and committed to playing eve to spend RL cash to advance his/her char.
I doubt there will be many newbro's doing that.
This is for committed players (vets?) who want a new clean char but don't want to create a new account/sub and do it the "hard" way.
Aside from the ISK/$ cost, losing a character's history bothers me. Probably more than it should, but I like the intel I get from seeing the age of a char and its employment history even if there are a lot of assumptions I make from that data.
they're going to be more than that.
do the math. on a perfect remap with +5s, 7.7 days to get 500,000 SP. 7.7 days game time at current plex prices - 400m. (now add on whatever the extractor will cost).
you're looking at 400m+
if chars on the bazzar are going for 250-350m/per 500,000 sp then new players are better off buying a new character than buying straight SP. even more so since people who train characters for sale are less likely to have wasted/redundant skills trained so they'll get more bang for their buck. |
Gumby Roffo
Know Your Neighbors Emporium WO'S HO'S
8
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Posted - 2015.10.16 11:11:08 -
[1588] - Quote
Woot... I'll be flying Titans in no time flat I just won't know how to properly. Now if only I can buy moon goo easily and have it delivered. |
Dave Stark
7550
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Posted - 2015.10.16 11:11:56 -
[1589] - Quote
Gumby Roffo wrote:Woot... I'll be flying Titans in no time flat I just won't know how to properly. Now if only I can buy moon goo easily and have it delivered.
open the market window. buy moon goo. create courrier contract. ???? success? |
Thebriwan
LUX Uls Xystus
219
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Posted - 2015.10.16 11:14:46 -
[1590] - Quote
To all the P2W sayers: Since when makes you getting more skillpoints better at this game?
Personally I would not change a single skill of my character because the skills are living history, I am attached to them.
"Look at the BC-3 - I trained this when I have gotten my first drake."
What I could see being useful and fair would be an implementation where you have to biomass a char to get his skillpoints. That would be like the character basar without the name problem. |
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