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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
TinkerHell
Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory.
198
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Posted - 2015.10.16 14:45:39 -
[1771] - Quote
I have decided to write a reply for what little good it will achieve.
For me this idea is awful. Here are my reasoning why:
Currently you can buy a character off my forums and have your form of 'p2w'. Yes this is true to an extent.
However, from a 'roleplay' perspective (I am not a roleplayer) this character has a history, you are not only buying that character but its history as well. Good or bad. This is a good thing. If you are that worried about it having a bad history you should research before purchasing. That character has had an influence of eve in some way, it is a part of the EVE storyline. I do not agree with having new characters created and the SP injected into it so it can have its own identity and your chosen name, especially at the cost of basically stripping any older character which does have a history. New characters should start at the beginning, they are new pilots, they should not instantly be able to fly whatever they want. They are at the start of their career, they are working towards and building something special.
I think even as a non roleplayer that it is a crime to pick apart old characters and strip them for parts.
Dont get me wrong, i am all for supporting new players into the game. I was a supporter of the starting SP being increased, i personally wanted it increased further and SP rewards given for completing the basic opportunities to not only give them SP but to help them learn the game at the same time. In my opinion this is a MUCH better alternative to just effectively buying SP.
As a 'bittervet' I acknowledge that you can buy characters off the forums, but you cant get a character thats above the max about of SP that could of been potentially trained for the 12 years off this game, now with this change i can afford to max SP several accounts. Is that a good thing? In my opinion no. Do i care how much it would cost me? No. This is now 'p2w' with no limit. You can argue that its better to have multiple characters, but id rather have the variety on my main and be maxed for every combat ship than having an alt for everything excluding ships that are for alt roles like cyno and links.
There are much better ways to help new players in this game. Please stop suggesting changes that ruin the history of the game, or at the cost of the older players. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26490
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Posted - 2015.10.16 14:47:17 -
[1772] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:nice list of buzzwords. now, what will happen in-game because of this change that isn't already happening? as yet you've listed nothing. It will cause the fundamental problem that you will be able to skip game mechanics if you pay for it.
This is bad on a design level (since it's the antithesis of design GÇö it actually disrupts mechanics), on a balance level (because it can't be balanced since it relies on cost as a restriction), and on a conceptual level (it doesn't actually solve any of the problems it's supposed to solve). Hell, just for good measure, I'd throw in that it's bad on a morale level too: it absolutely reeks of desperate last-ditch cash grab to hope that a handful of whales will splurge on their newfound ability to not let something as silly as core game design sit in the way of their grand ideas.
In other words: try reading. The answer will not change and, more importantly, will not go away just because you refuse to acknowledge it for some absurd reason.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Laodell
Executable Inc.
2
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Posted - 2015.10.16 14:47:55 -
[1773] - Quote
Quote: lol @ the idea of "hooray I did nothing except wait and I'm rewarded!!!!"
haha that's so insane.
After re-reading these threads I see one common theme coming from everyone that is in favor of the change.
Impatience.
This smacks of a younger generation that cannot tolerate being told to wait for something, or make a long term plan and execute on it. Like a spoiled little 9 year old demanding a smart phone from his parents.
It takes time to learn how to play in Eve well. It's been my observation that the time progression matches the abilities and inspirations of the players to 'improvise' or otherwise think of new and interesting tactics that they are capable of without jumping to 'fully capable' skills levels. Yes time *is* an accomplishment. I have played the game for 10 years and have had fun in the process and there's still things I look forward to being able to do.
If I could have done *everything* in the first year I would have gotten bored, and found another game to play.
Buying SP wouldn't encourage anyone to explore other ways of doing things. Why not just create chars with level 5 everything or remove the requirement for skill points entirely and let everyone fly or fit whatever they can afford? Because everyone would have done everything in the first year or tow, then will move on. Having never fully explored all that Eve has to offer. |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
257
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Posted - 2015.10.16 14:49:21 -
[1774] - Quote
afkalt wrote: So when new hulls come out and the rich players can just auto-level them to IV/V - but poor people have to wait, you think that is healthy?
I'm actually indifferent to the proposals as I'm kinda losing interest at the moment - but there's a lot of bullshit and ignored negative consequences going around.
.
so they will pend allot of isk/cash to be able to fly a ship 15' minutes/several days faster that me... so what? i don't really care as long as i'm also able to fly it 2 days later |
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
141
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Posted - 2015.10.16 14:49:45 -
[1775] - Quote
The other misfortune of democracy: The "group idiocracy" that people who develops one thing is diverting from another which is not their concern. People who makes space barbie fashion has nothing to do with skills and balance. If the people were not doing space barbie outfits, they would not be contributing to the team doing skill drug dealing. Oranges and apples.
I dont really mind people's efforts to make prettier avatars or nice cozy quarters because it is matter of "I dont use it, it does not affect me". The bullshit of incarna bashing is not the same as skill sales bashing. Having CQs or WiS wont change the level of experience needed to fight NPCs or use Ships.
You want a simple example ? In old times, there were the need of clever alignment and clever placement or else you would not be able to outmaneuver your foe. Somehow at one point a CCP person spoke about controls and ui and hinted that could change. Contrary to the well already established reason as to why you cant steer ships like a minivan, now you actually can steer you ship just like a minivan. No placement or right alignment is need to outmaneuver your foe.
Other examples ?
- There was a time when you had to think of what you doing as to it would constitute aggression or not. Criminal mindset awareness was removed by adding safety setting. - All the fitting thingy. There was a time when you could build fits freely and modules were somehow a matter of adapting your ship to your playstyle. Today you have tons of modules balanced in a way you can only be viable to fit a given ship in a certain given restricted number of ways. You cannot just make yourself a floating brick for tanking, as there is no placement for that style. Does not matter if people do that by mistake, I want to do it and I am restrict from doing it because idiots do it for the wrong reasons ?
That is the future of putting just anyone in ships and places they are not ready for. After you put them there, you cant remove them from there, so you have to change the place, not the person, to accommodate your ill conceived idea.
Bazaar already does it, and that is bad. A Bazaar on steroids will be Xanadu.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
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Dave Stark
7553
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Posted - 2015.10.16 14:49:54 -
[1776] - Quote
afkalt wrote:So when new hulls come out and the rich players can just auto-level them to IV/V - but poor people have to wait, you think that is healthy? I can't roll up to the bazaar and grab a decent pilot for a new hull they day they release. I can with this proposal.
I'm actually indifferent to the proposals as I'm kinda losing interest at the moment - but there's a lot of bullshit and ignored negative consequences going around.
this is actually the first sensible argument i've seen.
for some one like me, it's 50k per packet. that's what., 300 packets for 1.5m sp? which is what recon V is.
or it's like a month to get it to V (so, not even that long). getting it to IV takes about a week at most... so it'll basically be trained by the weekend when i can play.
unless the new ship type has insane bonuses like 500%/level... i wouldn't be that worried about it as i'd be flying an IV skilled ship vs a V skilled ship.
" but poor people have to wait, you think that is healthy?"
opposed to currently where new people have to wait - or drop cash on it.
in your hypothetical we're just replacing "new people" with "poor people". who would you rather see left out in the cold? |
Commander IceQ
Wet Soap Guard
15
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Posted - 2015.10.16 14:50:40 -
[1777] - Quote
I am with the 'NO' crowd in this. Though as some I have a few skills I would love to re-allocate the sp of, I do not support this.
I do support rofflesausage, his suggestions answers your concerns in a more way that better supports the game:
rofflesausage wrote:Overly complex for what should actually be possible:
- Name changes - the 'reputation' reason is total nonsense, given you can simply buy / sell a character anyway. Simply have a 'previously known as' tab in the show info for that character.
- Character SP reallocation - Made a mistake? Want a new direction? Pay to do so. Same SP amount. Limited on the number of times per year.
Trading SP across characters I'm not a fan of, certainly not with the diminishing returns aspect. I'd much rather the focus be on letting new players gain / start with more SP. As for the actual character trading - give people the ability to turn a character into an in game item. It should be tradable, be subject to the normal scam rules, and destroyable like any item in the game. Are these 'Transneural Skill Packets' normal items that can be destroyed in game? Like PLEX? The rename I SO want and WILL use. The SP Re-allocation... see my 1st line. So even I might use that. The last (making char a tradeable item) seems fine to me... even I may use it.
Create contract with char, throw in a name change to sweeten the deal.
I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it.
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Dave Stark
7553
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Posted - 2015.10.16 14:51:07 -
[1778] - Quote
Tippia wrote:It will cause the fundamental problem that you will be able to skip game mechanics if you pay for it.
and the issues arising from having more SP than your max allowed based on your character age is?
you've still not outlined a single issue. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2166
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Posted - 2015.10.16 14:51:54 -
[1779] - Quote
No, currently EVERYONE has to wait.
The same for T3 skill loss.
This alters that.
Good/bad, I shall leave to others. But it is a fundamental change and one not currently provided by existing services. |
Dave Stark
7553
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Posted - 2015.10.16 14:53:19 -
[1780] - Quote
afkalt wrote:No, currently EVERYONE has to wait.
only within the first what, month? of a new skill being released. |
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ArmyOfMe
Hull Breach. Outnumbered.
469
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Posted - 2015.10.16 14:54:17 -
[1781] - Quote
I know, lets make a NPE offer of letting everyone start with 200m sp for only a 100$, would probably get tons of new players then. Problem solved for ccp as they would make tons of new income, and get rid of all bitter vets at the same time.
QUOTE CCP Dolan and the EVE Online development team:-áThe battle was relatively even for some time with CFC and Russian forces holding moderate lead at first and only have a slight lead in Titan kills. Then came a turning point in the battle. Manfred Sideous, the initial Fleet Commander for PL/N3, handed over command to the CEO of Northern Coalition., Vince Draken
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Orions Lord
NeoCom Systems
18
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Posted - 2015.10.16 14:55:08 -
[1782] - Quote
I will just sell my 1 month earned skill points maybe with some isk farming. If I can do that for my 3 accounts I am ok with it. I have my skilled characters and am fine with that.
Plex will go sky-high I am not sure if the players that farm for plex will stay in the game.
So for me personally this would be an financial gain but this has nothing to do with the game itself. This way eve will be a huge farming game 2 ways isk and sp.
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Odie McCracken
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
79
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Posted - 2015.10.16 14:56:20 -
[1783] - Quote
So much for Eve.... |
Fourteen Maken
Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance
209
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Posted - 2015.10.16 14:57:36 -
[1784] - Quote
Edward Olmops wrote: There are more flaws/side effects.
The proposed changes would totally mess up the current training and attributes system. Future optimum training:
1. remap to +10 Per +4 Will 2. buy 2 learning implants to train PER/WILL at max speed 3. whenever you need anything else, just extract 500k XP and reinsert them into your own brain as 400k unallocated SP. Despite the loss, you still get more SP than when training with your weak attributes 4. dont care about attributes and remaps until you have at least 50mil SP
Bonus for PvP addicts:
train on character A on your account with 2 +5 implants. Then transfer SP to your combat char B who never wears expensive implants and has no active training queue.
The extractor thingy's won't be free, they'll definitely be sufficiently expensive that this won't be feasible the market will make sure of that.
Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war:
The sinews of war; infinite money.
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25735
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Posted - 2015.10.16 14:58:06 -
[1785] - Quote
CSM folks who oppose the change, or anyone else who's against it.
Can you point me to a cogent argument not using subjective buzzwords like "pay to win" why this change is bad?
And I wish I could shout you out
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Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
144
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Posted - 2015.10.16 14:58:27 -
[1786] - Quote
CCP should instead start renting solar systems themselves. That would be a much less impactant way of rising cash quickly.
So I pay like 3 plex month and I have my very own wormhole with a couple NPCs to patrol it like a "mini me concord".
Space Garrison.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
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Laodell
Executable Inc.
5
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Posted - 2015.10.16 14:58:42 -
[1787] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Estevan Andrard wrote:Lan Wang wrote:next up...aurum for jump fatigue steroids Next on New Eden Store **Race** Donation Fund - Earn you +1 Standing rise with **Race** Then we know it is the end of times. the possibilities are endless
Since we are getting stupid about this lets explore that direction:
While we are at it why not add trans-gendered pilots and make other physical defects available. Lets get a wheelchair or walker option for the older pilots. We have scars why not amputee's and birth defects?
[ Sarcasm ] I see so many micro-aggressions in character creation alone [ /Sarcasm ] |
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
1318
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Posted - 2015.10.16 14:59:37 -
[1788] - Quote
Malou Hashur wrote:You all know that none of this matters, right ?
They have made up their mind and will bring it in regardless of how sh!t it is..
You clearly weren't around for the Marauder pass then where feedback was taken on-board and listened to along with a lot of other threads on UI, Balance passes, Module Tiercide?
Nope, didn't think so. I'll reserve my judgement on this proposed change if it ever comes in it whether they listened or not and then act accordingly.
[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee"
Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b]
Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26495
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:00:45 -
[1789] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:and the issues arising from having more SP than your max allowed based on your character age is? The main issue is that you have to move the goalposts since you can't actually argue against the fundamental problem that this proposal creates.
You knowGǪ how it will cause the fundamental problem that you will be able to skip game mechanics if you pay for it. That is an issue in and of itself.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25735
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:01:17 -
[1790] - Quote
Anyone have any actual arguments for opposing it? Anyone?
Please list them.
And I wish I could shout you out
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
53
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:03:22 -
[1791] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:i'm bored of pointing out that "he has more sp than me" isn't a valid counterargument to them putting this in the game. Good thing that it wasn't used as an argument (counter or otherwise), then. Quote:what difference will it actually make to the game when this is implemented? what, in-game, problem will this cause? It will cause the fundamental problem that you are now able to skip game mechanics if you pay for it. It is bad on a design level (since it's the antithesis of design GÇö it actually disrupts mechanics), on a balance level (because it can't be balanced since it relies on cost as a restriction), and on a conceptual level (it doesn't actually solve any of the problems it's supposed to solve). Hell, just for good measure, I'd throw in that it's bad on a morale level too: it absolutely reeks of desperate last-ditch cash grab to hope that a handful of whales will splurge on their newfound ability to not let something as silly as core game design sit in the way of their grand ideas. subway was lukewarm - should have ate it in the store rather than bringing it home. c'est la vie. nice list of buzzwords. now, what will happen in-game because of this change that isn't already happening? as yet you've listed nothing.
Going this direction, the game will die. I have wrote numerous reasons why, feel free to read them.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Laodell
Executable Inc.
5
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:03:56 -
[1792] - Quote
Bantara wrote:Orions Lord wrote:I have enough on this pvp character so if I sell 1 mont earned skill point does that equal me an plex. Then eve will be free to play for me.
I am sure CCP would love that loss of income. Someone had to buy the PLEX. They lose no money. Don't be this way.
You can make enough ISK in game to purchase a PLEX without having to ever touch cash. Eve can be free to play if you can make more than a billion isk a month. Which happens.
I am sure the mining-bot account holders will love this feature. Less time required to get to their optimal training and harvesting. |
Dave Stark
7553
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:04:16 -
[1793] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:and the issues arising from having more SP than your max allowed based on your character age is? The main issue is that you have to move the goalposts since you can't actually argue against the fundamental problem that this proposal creates. You knowGǪ how it will cause the fundamental problem that you will be able to skip game mechanics if you pay for it. That is an issue in and of itself.
i haven't moved the goalposts once.
not that it matters if i did, you haven't provided a single reason why this idea is bad other than "now you can get more sp on a character than the theoretical maximum based on character DOB".
just name an issue this will cause players in game? is it really that hard? (guess it is since you've failed to do it 3 times now). |
Jeff Kione
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
35
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:05:41 -
[1794] - Quote
Hi CCP,
I think the proposed system isn't terrible. The fundamentals behind it seem to be not significantly different than the character bazaar, with the main difference being that you can keep your in-game identity instead of having to assume someone else's. This is a strong disincentive of the current character bazaar that keeps most people who have already established a character identity from "paying to win" - and this is a good thing, as strong ties to character identity probably contributes to player retention. Similarly, you'll probably want a similar disincentive for the new system; perhaps not having only an 80% penalty for such a wide range of SP levels.
The only point that I would raise is that I think you should be careful how you market this to new players. Right now, someone who wants to skip right into a "powerful" character will Google "buy Eve character" and find the character bazaar. No one necessarily points them that way, as these are the same people who would buy a character off of Ebay if they could. To this extent, the system isn't marketed to players but it is available - something that I think is the best of both worlds.
If you market the SP packets to new players, you might have some newer players drawing links between the SP packets and freemium pay walls that exist in time-gated games. You know, "why wait to train those support skills when you could undock right now with them for only $x.xx". Specifically, I think you want to avoid implying that skill training is a time gate +á la freemium games, as that could turn people off.
I think with stronger disincentives for higher SP players (as I mentioned before - step up the penalties quicker), you could market the SP packets as more of an initial optional "boost" to avoid some of the initial hardships of the game. |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
257
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:06:14 -
[1795] - Quote
Tippia wrote:gascanu wrote:no, the training speed for me is the time needed to get the isk used to pay for the char No. That is not your training speed. None of that affects how quickly your character acquires SP (other than if you use the SP to buy implants). If you buy a character from the bazaar, no mechanics are skipped because your character is still acquiring SP at a maximum of 2700 SP/h GÇö same as always. All that's happening is that you are training a different character at that speed than you, personally, did yesterday. Players do not exist in-game, and are not subject to game mechanics. Their characters are. You are talking about the speed at which a player gains access to a high-SP character, which no game mechanics exist to regulate since we are talking about a player. At most, there is the EULA, but that's nto a game mechanic. What the player can access should not be confused with how quickly a character can gain a high amount of SP, which is something that is regulated by game mechanics since characters exist within the game. Player GÇö character access GÇö EULA. Character GÇö SP acquisition GÇö game mechanics. Do not confuse the two.
dude take a break and relax a bit:
i, new player jinx buy plex>sell plex>buy one 200 mil caracter on the bazar, i can have that 200 mil char in 2 days; for me that is MY trainig speed, 2 days, what you trying to tell with overcomplicated mathematics about sps/h is just dust in the wind; also, if you like to talk about sp/h, you forget to add that noone is buying this new sps packs without someone selling them after training them; so while some chars will go up in sps, others will go down, with the new system total average sps will actually go down, so in fact the max 2700sp/h will go down on average and so on and so on... it's easy: instead of buying one 100 mil sp char you can now buy how many " sps packs" you need to get your char to 100 mil if you really want that 100 mil char... |
Estevan Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
144
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:06:28 -
[1796] - Quote
That is exactly the problem.
See. Someone get to the thread, without the will to read it through, then make an assumption that the issue can be summarised in a couple sentences. It is done regardless of how dismissive it is. So in no time we have a complex idea reduced to two pairs of sentences that dont even explain the idea itself. People like, do it.
One year later people is complaining that EVE is not the game they thought it was because all the people said it was a complex game requiring actual gameplay.
I still remember the guy ragequitting because he watched butterfly effect movie and thought that was eve. Well, that was eve. Before people started to demanding stupid balancing and solo play enhancement. You want solo play, you will never have butterfly effect by using solo play.
Well, you will never have clever mechanics when 1 week old players have access to capital ships.
If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
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ArmyOfMe
Hull Breach. Outnumbered.
472
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:06:38 -
[1797] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: Anyone have any actual arguments for opposing it? Anyone?
Please list them.
This thread is 90 pages long, if you havnt found a single argument against this yet, then i suspect the problem is with your reading abillites, and not anywhere else.
QUOTE CCP Dolan and the EVE Online development team:-áThe battle was relatively even for some time with CFC and Russian forces holding moderate lead at first and only have a slight lead in Titan kills. Then came a turning point in the battle. Manfred Sideous, the initial Fleet Commander for PL/N3, handed over command to the CEO of Northern Coalition., Vince Draken
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Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
406
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 15:07:21 -
[1798] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Anyone have any actual arguments for opposing it? Anyone?
Please list them.
There you go and without buzzwords "pay to win":
Tippia wrote:This is bad on a design level (since it's the antithesis of design GÇö it actually disrupts mechanics), on a balance level (because it can't be balanced since it relies on cost as a restriction), and on a conceptual level (it doesn't actually solve any of the problems it's supposed to solve). Hell, just for good measure, I'd throw in that it's bad on a morale level too: it absolutely reeks of desperate last-ditch cash grab to hope that a handful of whales will splurge on their newfound ability to not let something as silly as core game design sit in the way of their grand ideas.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
54
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:07:56 -
[1799] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: CSM folks who oppose the change, or anyone else who's against it.
Can you point me to a cogent argument not using subjective buzzwords like "pay to win" why this change is bad?
Read topic?
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Janeos
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
73
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:08:30 -
[1800] - Quote
Liquefying our enemies after the Goonmass crushes their will to fight is going to be so, so satisfying. Permadeath has arrived, y'all! |
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