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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Blodhgarm Dethahal
Isogen 5
192
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:36:10 -
[181] - Quote
More or less you remove the consequences of your actions if you decide to go through with this, which would be a loss of a major theme of what Eve is. My choices have meaning, do not take them away from me.
Now, at most, I would like to see a direct transfer of the skills themselves (instead of the SP system you are proposing or the current all-or-nothing of buying a character itself). So if I want say, Amarr Battleship 5 but I have it trained to 3, I can pay someone to "swap" skills with me. He gets ISK + my level 3 skill, and I get Amarr Battleship 5.
In reality though I think its better and probably easier to just add a 'Previously Known As' tab on character sheet and let us rename characters after we buy them.
-Bl+¦d
http://bloodytravels.blogspot.com/ -á-- My travels through space.
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Bruce Warhead
Fun is Pain
0
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:36:16 -
[182] - Quote
This is possible the worst change ever, people with a lot of money could at get their characters to an as high skill level as they want to. So PLEASE no!
This is far from changing the Character Bazzar. People what trained their Character, for years, to get skills, would have less skills then a 1 day old char, that some one invest thousands of $ into. You wouldn't be able to get any informations from a characters age, about his possible skills anymore.
At least, with the current system, you know if a character is like 5yr old he can have max that much skill points, and SOMEONE invest their time into training that character, made skillsplans, bought Implants and optimized the skillplans to get it done faster.
With this new system any random could start his character and just buy a lot of skillpoints and skill anything they wanted.
CPP please NO :( |
Villiars
6
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:36:22 -
[183] - Quote
Rather than knee-jerk say "This is a bad idea cause pay-to-win" why won't people say why its bad?
We already have "pay-to-win" in the character bazaar so don't pretend like the time you spent skilling from 0 to 100mill is sacred/special. The difference here is we have no way to understand the character's strength in terms of SP. So drop birth-date on the character sheet and just display total SP (or an SP range cause of opsec?)
I like this idea because I've trained useless skills that I'd like to refund (ex: anchoring V, trade skills, industry skills, science skills). Probably I'd send it to an alt or maybe just sell it.
As an improvement for the system It might be better to have the SP extracted be tied to the skill category. The purchaser injects the skills at a rate as proposed based on SP (maybe not as harsh) and now has a second option: inject them being tied to the original skill category OR take a 20% to inject them as purely unallocated skills to be used in any category of their choice. |
SpaceSaft
Capts Deranged Cavaliers Gentlemen's.Club
165
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:36:26 -
[184] - Quote
This is a terrible idea. Please don't. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
3421
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:36:51 -
[185] - Quote
before everyone goes mental here a few reasons why it is not pay2win: - SP is traded between 2 chars, no SP is generated out of nothing - SP is lost in transaction (SP sink) - it is an alternative to an already existing feature (char bazzar) - it is mostly only useful for young chars
and last but not least having SP and winning are two different things.
would i use it? probably not because i have too much SP already. It would be highly inefficient to use it on this char. do i mind that noobs could potentially have high SP chars in their first month? no is this a good change? i don't know
how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2005
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:36:55 -
[186] - Quote
Sexy Cakes wrote:Querns wrote:Sexy Cakes wrote:Querns wrote:Sexy Cakes wrote:I'll up the anty:
If this isn't scrapped by Monday morning next week I'm giving away everything I have and biomassing my characters. CCP isn't motivated by your decision to hold your account hostage. Ehh I'm not trying to do any sort of hostage thing with my account. It's more of a fun way to go out. I've suffered enough of the bonehead decisions of CCP and if this makes it in the game it'll be my last straw. Then why post about it at all? So my fellow forum trolls can get some entertainment from my butthurt. A likely story.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Alt Pilot1
Hysera Innovations
9
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:38:04 -
[187] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Great change. Best in years. However, could we get some more sample numbers like the possible Aurum costs?
I agree this is brilliant. It doesn't take anything away from the older players. And it turns Skill Points into a commodity that can be freely traded in the Market Window.
I am not sure why some people are against this, and say it's "using Aurum to buy SP"....
You are clearly NOT using Aurum to buy SP, because the character has to have existing SP to be extracted..... The Aurum is basically a payment for the extraction service. This is just a transfer of skill points, from one character to another.
The only reason why I think some people are opposed to this, is because they don't want to be instantly challenged by younger players who are willing to buy the skill packets. They probably want all the younger players to go through the same ordeal they did when they started paying, like waiting for months for skills to train. |
Incurso
Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing Renaissance Federation
0
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:39:28 -
[188] - Quote
I don't get all the hate EVE already has a pay to win option. Anyone with to much real life money and not enough brains or patience can drop several hundred dollars on a bought toon then a pile of PLEX. You may or may not figure out how to play well but you can go from zero to high skill and high end ships with out ever undocking once and in a few hours.
I assume it doesn't happen much because you have to pay ALOT to win.
IDEA: If this happens can we get some sort of slop bucket to train points we intend to sell? I have no interest in capital ships and I'm nearly max SP on the things I want. I would trade SP for ISK. I just don't want to give up the stuff I have now.
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Max Kolonko
WATAHA. Unseen Wolves
562
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:39:29 -
[189] - Quote
How about NO?
Ok lets go into more details: 1. If I understood corectly it will cost some unspecified ammount of aurum to create a single 500 000 SP skill pack? So - depending on how much aurum it will end up costing I have to eaither braek down a plex and have tons of spare and useless aurum or it will cost me something around current 2 plex in aurum price. If it is the previous than I guess You can create multiple package for single plex, and there will be some sort of equilibrium number of removed SP that end up costing current 2 plexes. If it is the latter then You will end up with 2,5bill per 500 000 SP which is nowhere near what You get for multimilion char on the bazar. And most of it will go to CCP and not player (he had to brerak tons of plexes to put them on market in the first place so thats CCP Gain) 2. When You buy the pack its value is dependant on Your SP level, so its no longer 500 000 gained for 500 000 removed, but progressivly less - fair enough if thats how it should be. 3. I see merits of buyting SP instead of Character. How about option to sell SP by biomassing your character? Peaople will still get full char worth of SP, but those SP would be already pre-arranged into whatever original character had. And Price Would be simillar to what it is now (2 plex or 20 euro)
Read and support:
Don't mess with OUR WH's
What is Your stance on WH stuff?
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Lena Lazair
Sefrim
548
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:39:36 -
[190] - Quote
Scott Ormands wrote:...what is to stop me from trainging a command ship and then extracting all the boosting skills, so to speak. in that way i could still fly the command ship but would have gotten my boosting skills transfered into some other skill or sold for isk. its a way to beat the prereq system for almost anything.
This is the biggest mechanics issue I've seen pointed out so far. Easy enough to fix, of course... do not allow skills to be extracted that are pre-reqs for any other skills that will remain injected on the character.
D'KMal wrote:What if removing skillpoints was only possible if it killed/biomassed the character they were taken from? That way you would still essentially be buying a character (i.e. taking all their SP), just now you could start a new character with the name and looks that you wanted, and apply the whole of the first character's SP to them.
This is a system I wouldn't mind seeing. An alternative biomass button that costs two PLEX and puts a bunch of transneural paks into the account's redeeming tab based on SP of the character that was just melted down. If CCP is looking for more cash to stay afloat, then I'd even be fine with the PLEX cost of that button scaling to the number of paks created in this way in order to mirror the escalating $ CCP gets out of high-SP swaps under their new proposed system.
I'd be even happier to see TSP injection restricted to characters no older than 30-days at a fixed 1:1 rate, so this is truly a "for new characters" only thing and more closely resembles the current limitations of the bazaar. None of this scaling DR for older characters, just a flat cutoff after 30 day character age.
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Tzu Wu
THORN Syndicate Circle-Of-Two
42
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:39:38 -
[191] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:before everyone goes mental here a few reasons why it is not pay2win: - SP is traded between 2 chars, no SP is generated out of nothing - SP is lost in transaction (SP sink) - it is an alternative to an already existing feature (char bazzar) - it is mostly only useful for young chars
and last but not least having SP and winning are two different things.
would i use it? probably not because i have too much SP already. It would be highly inefficient to use it on this char. do i mind that noobs could potentially have high SP chars in their first month? no is this a good change? i don't know
Finally someone with some damned sense, thank you. |
Mira Stargazer
Epic Warfare
59
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:39:49 -
[192] - Quote
Don't do this!
I have feelings, I can smile - and murder while!
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2005
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:40:00 -
[193] - Quote
Alt Pilot1 wrote:Aryth wrote:Great change. Best in years. However, could we get some more sample numbers like the possible Aurum costs? I agree this is brilliant. It doesn't take anything away from the older players, and turns Skill Points a commodity that can be freely traded in the Market Window. I am not sure why some people are against this, and some say it's "using Aurum to buy SP".... You are clearly NOT using Aurum to buy SP, because the character has to have existing SP to be extracted..... The Aurum is basically a payment for the extraction service. The only reason why I think some people are opposed to this, is because they don't want to be instantly challenged by younger players...? The outrage is mostly falling into two camps.
The first camp is people who genuinely don't understand the change, or stopped reading halfway through to ejaculate some vitriol onto the forums as their emotional state demanded.
The second camp is people who feel that doggedly logging in over the course of more than a decade entitles them to some sort of special consideration. These people are threatened by the (largely illusory) vignette of a rich player supplanting their SP total by applying ISK directly to their forehead.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Tiala Skye
The Tax Evasion Foundation
0
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:41:10 -
[194] - Quote
I think high level (higher than in the dev blog) this is a good idea, it simplifies the whole process.
I do however think it has been over-simplified.
Because you simply extract SP and sell it on for someone to get unallocated SP, it removes the investment choices for those who are doing the initial training.
Currently, some keen entrepreneur could train up a toon (or several) to be say... oh I don't know... a perfect off-grid-boosts pilot then sell them on the Bazaar.
I have no idea how much SP that actually costs, for argument's sake, let's say a bajillion.
Someone else comes along, and decides they want to become a perfect OGB, and pays a price based on how valuable that toon would be. Which depending on the meta might be less valuable than a bajillion SP in drones and more valuable than a bajillion SP in social skills.
Just like everything else that comes out of this wonderfully dynamic player-driven economy, there's a fluctuating supply and demand. There is risk and reward.
With the new system, those with the presence of mind to make good SP investments (with a view to selling on the Bazaar) are not being rewarded. Whereas it's a given that in the market, that not all investments will pay off, and sometimes due to the shifting meta the market will crash (or spike) -- keeping things dynamic.
I would much rather see a direct selling of skills. When selling a perfect OGB then it might be worth a bajillion isk today, but virtually worthless 6 months from now. Whereas say a bajillion SP invested in a perfect frigate pilot might stay at a steady half-a-bajillion for years.
One of the wonderful things about this game is that if you look closely enough at an aspect of it, and learn your craft, you can make money from it. You can quit your "day job" and become a career professional. That drives ambition. When you remove these career choices, you kill ambition, and going back to flipping burgers is not fun.
I get a feeling your idea may be an excellent way to fix broken metas. If, for example, in 6 months time OGB's get smacked with the nerfbat, and they go from being the most important ship in some fleets, to absolutely and entirely pointless, then you don't really need to deal with the fallout from that, because any unwanted SP investments can be sold and recycled into useful SP. Clever? Sure. Simple? No doubt. Effective? Probably. Lazy and reductive? Yes. Those too.
So, great idea, and I'd rather see it happen as you have proposed than not at all. However, I think you can do better to preserve the risk/reward excitement.
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Necharo Rackham
The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
66
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:41:20 -
[195] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote: The current plan is to not allow skillpoints to be extracted from skills that are requirements of other skills. So in your example you would have to remove the Command Ships skill before you could remove any prerequisite skills like Armored Warfare.
Just bear in mind that - using the example above - some CS pilots won't have the Armored Warfare skill because of 'whatever you can fly before the change, you can fly after the change'. |
Soltys
25
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:41:34 -
[196] - Quote
Alt Pilot1 wrote:Aryth wrote:Great change. Best in years. However, could we get some more sample numbers like the possible Aurum costs? I agree this is brilliant. It doesn't take anything away from the older players. And it turns Skill Points into a commodity that can be freely traded in the Market Window. I am not sure why some people are against this, and say it's "using Aurum to buy SP".... You are clearly NOT using Aurum to buy SP, because the character has to have existing SP to be extracted..... The Aurum is basically a payment for the extraction service. The only reason why I think some people are opposed to this, is because they don't want to be instantly challenged by younger players...?
The attention span and reading ability of most that posted before is pretty low.
OTOH I'd rather see properly fixed pointless timewall that skills are, then providing workarounds for that with character bazaar or SP extractions (with a bit of mandatory cash shop on top). |
Manic Velocity
Emergent Dynamics
129
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:42:18 -
[197] - Quote
Just quoting what I wrote on the reddit thread, in the hopes that it's more visible to CCP:
Quote:The problem I have is that this alleviates the risks of buying a character from the Bazaar. Risks which Rise specifically outlines in the blog. But shouldn't those risks be the price you pay for quick progression? If you want that 33 million SP battleship pilot sooner rather than later, then you take all the baggage associated with it. Harden the f*** up and deal with your new reputation. EVE is a game of risk versus reward. EVE is a game where actions have consequences. Where's the risk here? Where's the consequence? EVE prides itself on not holding the player's hand, but that's exactly what this feature aims to do. This is like putting training wheels on a motorcycle. Quote:By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone. We already have full control over how our SP is allocated. The onus is on the player to do their research and determine how they should skill up. If they feel they make a mistake, such is EVE, such is life. Quote:Whether youre an older player who would rather have ISK than those mining skills you dont use any more, a clever new player looking to invest your fortune into your character, a Corp leader trying to move everyone into a new doctrine or someone like me who just realized that they would rather fly Armageddons than Stilettos, this feature has you covered. I'd honestly love to hear anyone argue that having too much SP is a bad thing.
@manicvelocity
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Vollhov
Senators of Eridan Red Alliance
313
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:42:33 -
[198] - Quote
The brains in a bottle. Okay -í-íP.
Thanks you -í-íP Falcon "that helped to quit EVE"
Grand Empress Jamyl Sarum YC110
CCP can never come up with such a character as Jamyl Sarum.
"All these wayward children."
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TinkerHell
Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory.
190
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:42:36 -
[199] - Quote
Another reason to quit this game.
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Xandrah Enaka
Talonclaw Foundation
0
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:42:37 -
[200] - Quote
No CCP! Please no D: |
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Alladir
Alladarium
0
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:42:46 -
[201] - Quote
Personally i'm okay with it. Heck it may bring lots of my friends in. Tho i think 1 shot clones giving you additional free sp that is lost once you die was a better idea. Do what you think is right CCP this is your game after all. |
Alt Pilot1
Hysera Innovations
9
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:42:52 -
[202] - Quote
Incurso wrote:I don't get all the hate EVE already has a pay to win option. Anyone with to much real life money and not enough brains or patience can drop several hundred dollars on a bought toon then a pile of PLEX. You may or may not figure out how to play well but you can go from zero to high skill and high end ships with out ever undocking once and in a few hours.
I assume it doesn't happen much because you have to pay ALOT to win.
IDEA: If this happens can we get some sort of slop bucket to train points we intend to sell? I have no interest in capital ships and I'm nearly max SP on the things I want. I would trade SP for ISK. I just don't want to give up the stuff I have now.
I think because Eve has too much E-Peen.
A lot of older players want to be forever above the younger players, and don't want them to catch up that quickly.
This new SP transfer system can be really good for Eve Online in the long run. It'll make it more noob friendly. |
Aethelrian Kasenumi
Adeptus.Custodes
0
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:43:33 -
[203] - Quote
As a newer player who wasted a lot of SP early on, even I will give a resounding "no" to this.
I love that you guys are thinking outside the box to get newbros into the game, but improving the character bazaar does not require this. GIve us the option to change the aethestics of a purchased character and make it our own. Perhaps you could limit injection of these SP to new(er) characters and put a hard cap on the amount of SP one could transfer, if you really wanted to make it work.
That being said, if this change did happen, I would use the service (as I'm sure many here would), but I wouldn't like it. It just feels too cheap for Eve. |
Margin Matters
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:43:43 -
[204] - Quote
Wow I joined this game just in time! Soon I will be able to buy enough skill points to train a few 6 month old chars to the max in ships, industry and trade. I will be able to control whole systems by myself and will make enough in the game to play for free! Of course I won't see but a few people in a system and Jita will have 200 max at a a time, but I'll be fully skilled at the end!
I always seem to start playing a game when it's on the way out, sigh. |
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
Alekhine's Gun Decayed Orbit
285
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:43:52 -
[205] - Quote
So I could run ten additional accounts to double Tikktokk's skillpoint gain? No matter how expensive/unrealistic that is, it's pay to win which is very bad! |
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1150
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:43:53 -
[206] - Quote
This is a big change which is why you're seeing a lot of knee-jerk posting. Many of these people would probably be posting similar things if you announced the character bazar would now exist.
People who think this is pay-to-win basically don't understand that pay isk for chars already exists. I think that this removes a lot of the friction which you could argue worsens the system - the character bazar has enough flaws that it doesn't really work well, which means that if it was doing damage it wouldn't do much. But it doesn't really do damage: there are idiots who spend real money to get characters but then they quickly realize SP doesn't get you all that much power. There's no real gain in listening to people just ranting about it without an argument - pay to win isn't an argument as this is shifting around SP, not creating it - and there will be a lot of traditionalist ranting. But it's a good idea, though it requires some thinking around the economy aspects to ensure you don't devalue SP.
I would put less efficiency into the process earlier because there is a lot of 'wasted' SP that goes into characters that were long ago good enough (all my main characters on accounts are 100m+ SP because why not) and you'll see a deluge of SP from old characters that don't really need the SP. That could seriously impact the SP economy by flooding the market initially. Of course there are also rich old characters - like me - with tons of isk who will just plug in packs at 10% efficiency because what the hell else will i do with the planets i have converted into storehouses for my immense stacks of isk.
There's also going to be an initial flood from people yanking out buttscratching V and other useless skills, as well as buying up horrible pubbies to put through the skillgoop extractor so you may want to create a system to slow that initial flood (limit the number of extractors that are sold, initially, for example) so that the SP leaks out into the market instead of crashes out. |
Kelby
50
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:44:22 -
[207] - Quote
This is an insanely bad idea. |
Jessica Danikov
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
450
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:44:36 -
[208] - Quote
Real missed opportunity here: in-keeping with full character transfers, why not have a Brain Overlay eXtractor, or BOX, which, when applied to a character, removes ALL their skills and gives you a Brain in a BOX, which can then be traded and ultimately applied to a character to replace their skills entirely with the ones in the BOX.
Voila, character transfers, EVE style, without the pesky name problem. |
Leppales Beddelver
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
26
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:44:52 -
[209] - Quote
You're joking right? This is a terrible idea. |
Titus Tallang
EVE University Ivy League
92
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:45:15 -
[210] - Quote
This makes new players feel like they are forced into (or at least strongly incentivized to) purchase SP, likely for PLEXed ISK considering their average in-game income, in order to become competitive.
I feel like this would be a terrible thing for new player retention. Nothing kills the "grim-dark cutthroat universe" hook quite as quickly as "give us money and be so much stronger right away". Regardless of whether this would hold true objectively, which you could argue - subjective impression is what matters, and it would be bad.
Director of Education - EVE University - http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/
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