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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Norn Thilnir
Naragnir
2
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Posted - 2015.10.18 08:48:03 -
[2941] - Quote
As someone who has started a new main character (slowly crawling towards 5M SP), all I can say is that introducing SP for isk breaks an interesting part of the game for me. It may sound silly, but making intelligent skill training choices without the possibility of a skill remap is fun. Other games I enjoyed in the past were equally ruthless with regards to character choices.
I feel SP for isk is simply an easy way out of the broken new player experience. A lot could be done to make low SP gameplay more balanced. Some good steps towards this have been taken already (requiring lvl 3/4 instead of lvl 5 to 'progress'), but the job is not done. By wisely specializing new players should be able to become competitive much faster. "Theorycrafting" a new character progression can be a lot of fun.
"Kil2" was bought because of the desire to fly battleships. Well, what if new players could fly reasonably fitted battleships in a reasonable amount of time by making intelligent choices? Sure, they'd be lacking the last 15% in dps and tank, but so what?
The main problem with progression for new characters is that the races do not allow proper specialization. Take the breacher, bellicose, cyclone lineup for instance. Training up drone skills has a far bigger impact on your DPS than improving all those missile skills. In fact, adding drone control units to the bellicose adds about the same dps as adding BCUs. Does that sound balanced? While older characters may look at drone SP and notice how "few" SP they require, those initial couple millions you need to invest really hold back low SP characters for no decent reason.
Some other ways in which to help new characters out without selling SP for isk:
- module rebalancing in terms of stats (e.g. make faction guns reasonably affordable, so new players can be competitive without t2) => this is still "pay to win", but in a much more interesting manner) - module/ship rebalancing in terms of requirements (e.g. require lvl 3/4 skills mostly instead of lvl 5, e.g. t2 large AC currently require motion prediction lvl 5, why?) - make t1 ships more competitive with t1 fits (a positive example of this are the minmatar destroyers: the t1 fits are not that much worse than the t2 fits) - ...
There is so much that could be done, but all of it requires devs with the time and patience to carefully tweak all those stats. It may not be "flashy", but it could turn EVE into a whole new game with far more interesting choices to make. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25385
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Posted - 2015.10.18 08:48:14 -
[2942] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Depends on how you view the character bazaar, some see it as purchasing time rather than SP. It's a fine distinction, but it does exist. that's still the case here. an SP packet still represents at least 7.7 days of some one else's time. it's not like this SP is coming out of thin air, it's coming out of some one's head. Yeah I realise that, which is why I'm content to let this play out, if I still feel that it's PLEX for SP when it becomes live then I will make an informed decision instead of making an uninformed snap decision to stop playing a game I've put several thousand hours into over the last 6 and a bit years.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1647
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Posted - 2015.10.18 08:48:33 -
[2943] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Quote:I just find people claiming "i'm quitting because you can buy SP" to be hypocrites - which wind me up immensely. they have always been able to buy and sell SP, and they're still here. so claiming they will quit is entirely disingenuous or hypocritical. Depends on how you view the character bazaar, some see it as purchasing time rather than SP. It's a fine distinction, but it does exist. Question for the ill suited to figure it out on their own, but what is the distinction in this case? I think it hard to argue people buy characters for simple age over ability, so while SP takes time to accrue, it's not the time a buyer would be after, but rather the abilities that come from the SP.
If I'm missing something, do tell please.
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Jared Khanar
11
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Posted - 2015.10.18 08:54:43 -
[2944] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Question for the ill suited to figure it out on their own, but what is the distinction in this case? I think it hard to argue people buy characters for simple age over ability, so while SP takes time to accrue, it's not the time a buyer would be after, but rather the abilities that come from the SP.
If I'm missing something, do tell please.
If it-¦s all about enabling abilities, this can be provided in many other way. You can alter SP requirements, and so on. It-¦s not that hard to alter existing features without additional costs for the player. But as this is designed it-¦s centered around additional cash income for ccp - advantages for money. If you support this, or not doesn-¦t matter. Please see this clearly as it is. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25385
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Posted - 2015.10.18 08:54:52 -
[2945] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Quote:I just find people claiming "i'm quitting because you can buy SP" to be hypocrites - which wind me up immensely. they have always been able to buy and sell SP, and they're still here. so claiming they will quit is entirely disingenuous or hypocritical. Depends on how you view the character bazaar, some see it as purchasing time rather than SP. It's a fine distinction, but it does exist. Question for the ill suited to figure it out on their own, but what is the distinction in this case? I think it hard to argue people buy characters for simple age over ability, so while SP takes time to accrue, it's not the time a buyer would be after, but rather the abilities that come from the SP. If I'm missing something, do tell please. It is a fine distinction, you're correct in that SP takes time to accrue, and time has value.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2605
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Posted - 2015.10.18 08:57:39 -
[2946] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Question for the ill suited to figure it out on their own, but what is the distinction in this case? I think it hard to argue people buy characters for simple age over ability, so while SP takes time to accrue, it's not the time a buyer would be after, but rather the abilities that come from the SP.
If I'm missing something, do tell please.
If you buy a character, time has passed at the normal rate for the skills that the character has. If you buy SP packets, there is no requirement for any of the sources to have accumulated the same total time. So rather than waiting 6 months for 1 characters 6 months worth of skills, you can now do it in a month from 6 characters at once.
This makes a huge difference in terms of how 'instant gratification' this sort of thing is. Additionally it's not for the benefit of the newbies, it's old experienced players who will take advantage of this and twist and abuse it in classic EVE ways. Newbies both won't have the money for this anyway, and won't know where to put their SP anyway. |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
199
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Posted - 2015.10.18 08:58:23 -
[2947] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Quote:I just find people claiming "i'm quitting because you can buy SP" to be hypocrites - which wind me up immensely. they have always been able to buy and sell SP, and they're still here. so claiming they will quit is entirely disingenuous or hypocritical. Depends on how you view the character bazaar, some see it as purchasing time rather than SP. It's a fine distinction, but it does exist. Question for the ill suited to figure it out on their own, but what is the distinction in this case? I think it hard to argue people buy characters for simple age over ability, so while SP takes time to accrue, it's not the time a buyer would be after, but rather the abilities that come from the SP. If I'm missing something, do tell please.
Because in the current system you buy a character with its history, allocated SP, an SP count in line with the character's age, name, corp history and everything that belongs to it. The new owner simply continues that character's journey. With this new system there is a straight "SP for isk" which is something vastly different, this is not a difficult concept to understand.
While one may or may not agree to character sales the simple fact that they're allowed does not somehow automatically mean that the new system should thus also be implemented. |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1752
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Posted - 2015.10.18 08:59:08 -
[2948] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:isk is being exchanged for sp regardless of whether i'm doing it via the bazaar or by the new system.
whether i log in to update a skill queue or extract SP makes no odds. one isn't more effort than the other. It is a lot easier to just farm this packs than to create a new ALT and sell it on the bazaar. The big difference here obviously is EFFORT you have to put in to get rid of your SP or ALT.
And EFFORT makes ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD!
Myself and I believe many other will never ever invest the time to create an alt to sell on the bazaar. It's not fun for me and I rather pay the subscriptions than to be bothered with this. With the extractors this will change. I can just farm SP as long as I don't need ISK for a new PLEX or something else WITHOUT EFFORT. I can cash out every time I want with almost ZERO EFFORT.
If this hits TQ myself and many others will no longer pay for a subscription and instead just use PLEX with the ISK you farm via this effortless mechanic. PLEX prices will rise to new heights. To the detriment of the player who actually farms ISK via some other mechanic to get the PLEX and actually needs the SP to train new skills.
So EVE will no longer be F2P for the player who is still training and farming the ISK via missions or mining, but instead for the vet who is already satisfied with his chars and has to do nothing.
This is about changing the current system in a bad way and to make sure even Dave gets it I will repeat the core aspect of the argument I made a lot of pages back:
EFFORT makes ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD! No one cares if it is almost the same as the bazaar, there is enough difference to completely change the way this aspect of the game works.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
166
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Posted - 2015.10.18 09:00:04 -
[2949] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Yea I know cause I think you're a Dev alt trying to protect your RL income.
There's definitely a motive somewhere.
considering i'm not even defending the idea. i'm just not crying that the sky is falling. if i want to buy and sell SP i can do it without this idea, and i could probably turn a profit from it if i bothered.
I'll put it to you straight so that you'll (hopefully) understand. If Eve had this feature already incorporated when I first began playing Eve in 2012, I would've left Eve a looooong time ago with absolutely no intentions of coming back. I just lack the ability to stay interested in a game that offers high rewards with little to no effort in a short time frame.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1647
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Posted - 2015.10.18 09:02:09 -
[2950] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:If it-¦s all about enabling abilities, this can be provided in many other way. You can alter SP requirements, and so on. It-¦s not that hard to alter existing features without additional costs for the player. But as this is designed it-¦s centered around additional cash income for ccp. That it could bring in income for CCP is in my mind a non-argument as I see no reason that they shouldn't be able to monetize this ability, and well should do so to prevent overly frivolous use should it come into being.
Regarding changing skill prereqs, unless you eliminate all prerequisites there will be a desire for skilled characters and the issue remains, albeit possibly less imposing.
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:It is a fine distinction,indeed the SP does take time to accrue, and time has value. What value does time have in this instance? If that value is only that it takes time to accrue SP that makes buying SP and buying time indistinguishable. |
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Dave Stark
7583
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Posted - 2015.10.18 09:03:05 -
[2951] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Yea I know cause I think you're a Dev alt trying to protect your RL income.
There's definitely a motive somewhere.
considering i'm not even defending the idea. i'm just not crying that the sky is falling. if i want to buy and sell SP i can do it without this idea, and i could probably turn a profit from it if i bothered. I'll put it to you straight so that you'll (hopefully) understand. If Eve had this feature already incorporated when I first began playing Eve in 2012, I would've left Eve a looooong time ago with absolutely no intentions of coming back. I just lack the ability to stay interested in a game that offers high rewards with little to no effort in a short time frame.
it did.
it still does. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
166
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Posted - 2015.10.18 09:03:38 -
[2952] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:I'll be glad to propose one for them that won't destroy the game's core. like This?
No, You've already clearly demonstrated that you lack this insight.
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Jared Khanar
11
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Posted - 2015.10.18 09:06:07 -
[2953] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:That it could bring in income for CCP is in my mind a non-argument as I see no reason that they shouldn't be able to monetize this ability, and well should do so to prevent overly frivolous use should it come into being.
Well if you like the idea to pay for features that gives advantages in a subscription based game your good to go :) |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1647
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Posted - 2015.10.18 09:07:19 -
[2954] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Because in the current system you buy a character with its history, allocated SP, an SP count in line with the character's age, name, corp history and everything that belongs to it. The new owner simply continues that character's journey. With this new system there is a straight "SP for isk" which is something vastly different, this is not a difficult concept to understand.
While one may or may not agree to character sales the simple fact that they're allowed does not somehow automatically mean that the new system should thus also be implemented. That wasn't the question persay, but works in lack of an answer I suppose.
So if a character comes along with a name I like, lack of history from being purpose made to sell, or better with standings aligned to my liking or at least not in a way that discourages my use, why does any of that matter? Allocated SP in particular seems horridly irrelevant so long as it has the skills I want/need. There is no longer any penalty for "wasted" SP, so why does this have meaning?
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Dave Stark
7583
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Posted - 2015.10.18 09:08:34 -
[2955] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:I'll be glad to propose one for them that won't destroy the game's core. like This? No, You've already clearly demonstrated that you lack this insight.
and which of the myriad of issues presented doesn't it fix?
it literally fixes every issue people are whining about. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1647
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Posted - 2015.10.18 09:08:55 -
[2956] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:That it could bring in income for CCP is in my mind a non-argument as I see no reason that they shouldn't be able to monetize this ability, and well should do so to prevent overly frivolous use should it come into being. Well if you like the idea to pay for features that gives advantages in a subscription based game your good to go :) I play a game with PLEX, allowing people to have in game funds so long as they spend out of game funds.
If I had an issue with this while continuing to play I'd be less than reasonable I'd think.
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Jared Khanar
12
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Posted - 2015.10.18 09:14:14 -
[2957] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:I play a game with PLEX, allowing people to have in game funds so long as they spend out of game funds.
If I had an issue with this while continuing to play I'd be less than reasonable I'd think.
Sadly the idea to pay to have access to the game, pay additionaly to get funds, pay additionaly to progress, pay additionally to do xyz is not everyones number one choice. If the community changes in a way that support this, ccp will surely focus on this even further. If you see no problem in this, thats fine. Have a great time in a game like this ;) |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25386
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Posted - 2015.10.18 09:18:04 -
[2958] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:It is a fine distinction,indeed the SP does take time to accrue, and time has value. What value does time have in this instance? If that value is only that it takes time to accrue SP that makes buying SP and buying time indistinguishable. The value of time is subjective, not everybody values it in the same way, or at the same rate; which is why it's such a fine distinction.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1647
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Posted - 2015.10.18 09:25:02 -
[2959] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:I play a game with PLEX, allowing people to have in game funds so long as they spend out of game funds.
If I had an issue with this while continuing to play I'd be less than reasonable I'd think.
Sadly the idea to pay to have access to the game, pay additionaly to get funds, pay additionaly to progress, pay additionally to do xyz is not everyones number one choice. If the community changes in a way that support this, ccp will surely focus on this even further. If you see no problem in this, thats fine. Have a great time in a game like this ;) I'm already having a great time in a game like this, as that's what this game currently is. We can pretend otherwise, or that by being "born of necessity" to curb a black market that the existing functions don't count as short-cutting progress or RMT, but that's exactly what they are.
The only problem I have is that we keep one a secret to the cool kids club with multi-billion budgets to throw at characters and pretend it's great for the game to make sure only those in the know and are willing to make a substantial investment can benefit.
CCP has proven to be pretty reasonable in moderating both of those rackets leaving no particular reason to believe this one would have the same result. But beyond the typical slippery slope what objections do you have?
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
166
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Posted - 2015.10.18 09:27:08 -
[2960] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Hopefully what you said is true and CCP decides to abort this atrocious idea in a respectful time frame. No, no, no, no.. no. You misunderstand me, I said that CCP need to get it right.
In case you haven't notice CCP seems to be having trouble with "getting it right" these days. And the margin for error with this is microscopic. Are you that confident they can get this right considering their latest track record?
I'm Not!
If they need help, I'll happily oblige.
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Jared Khanar
12
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Posted - 2015.10.18 09:28:01 -
[2961] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: But beyond the typical slippery slope what objections do you have?
If have edited my last posting, you may also like to read my history in this thread. Allow me to not repost all this. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2605
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Posted - 2015.10.18 09:28:47 -
[2962] - Quote
Read the last 150 pages and you'll see a bunch of other ways to abuse this feature. And it's not a 'typical slippery slope' argument either. Because this is a massive shift in philosophy by CCP here towards paying to win. It's not quite paying to win, but it certainly is paying to bypass game features in a massively larger way. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1647
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Posted - 2015.10.18 09:29:07 -
[2963] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:It is a fine distinction,indeed the SP does take time to accrue, and time has value. What value does time have in this instance? If that value is only that it takes time to accrue SP that makes buying SP and buying time indistinguishable. The value of time is subjective, not everybody values it in the same way, or at the same rate; which is why it's such a fine distinction. If we can't define a value that time has, how can you be sure that's what people are buying on the bazaar?
I'm not trying to be dismissive, but to claim there is a distinction between time and SP in regard to character sales probably means we should need to define that distinction for it to have any meaning. To me it lacks a distinction for the very reason of not being able to define one.
I imagine that for those that have no issue with the proposed it's the same.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1647
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Posted - 2015.10.18 09:32:24 -
[2964] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: But beyond the typical slippery slope what objections do you have?
If have edited my last posting, you may also like to read my history in this thread. Allow me to not repost all this. You only furthered the slippery slope and worse, assumed I felt some obligation to participate in every service CCP offers, existing or otherwise.
That considered I hope you'll excuse my not wanting to review your post history for more of the same. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4181
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Posted - 2015.10.18 09:33:43 -
[2965] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:If this hits TQ myself and many others will no longer pay for a subscription and instead just use PLEX with the ISK you farm via this effortless mechanic. PLEX prices will rise to new heights. To the detriment of the player who actually farms ISK via some other mechanic to get the PLEX and actually needs the SP to train new skills. Yes, but I don't think you'll be able to completely pay for a sub by forfeiting that sub's SP gains.
Though some (current char bazaar sellers) pay subs or PLEX just to farm SP on an account, most actually PLAY with their subbed accounts (alts included).
If a sub (or PLEX) gives you:
1 month play time
+
1.8M SP (more or less)
Why do you think you should get a full PLEX back by selling just the SP component of a PLEX's worth?
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1647
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Posted - 2015.10.18 09:36:00 -
[2966] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Read the last 150 pages and you'll see a bunch of other ways to abuse this feature. And it's not a 'typical slippery slope' argument either. Because this is a massive shift in philosophy by CCP here towards paying to win. It's not quite paying to win, but it certainly is paying to bypass game features in a massively larger way. I read much of the 1st 50 pages when I was initially active and found no plausible abuse cases that pose issues (most of the cases were based on poor reading or understanding of the proposed). Reading the last few yielded no new ones either.
It just comes down to people not feeling right that purchased SP can have allocation chosen by the buyer rather than the seller and under their own in game identity, which I don't see as a problem.
Really the only change I'd make is for the diminishing to start sooner and faster, and have an actual cap at which no more can be applied, but even then that's just personal sensibilities. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25387
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Posted - 2015.10.18 09:36:42 -
[2967] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:The value of time is subjective, not everybody values it in the same way, or at the same rate; which is why it's such a fine distinction. If we can't define a value that time has, how can you be sure that's what people are buying on the bazaar? How can I define how other people value time? It's impossible for me to do so.
Quote:I'm not trying to be dismissive, but to claim there is a distinction between time and SP in regard to character sales probably means we should need to define that distinction for it to have any meaning. To me it lacks a distinction for the very reason of not being able to define one. I can see where you're coming from but no. How you value time is unique to you, how I value time is unique to me, and that goes for every other player, some people value of time may share some commonality but each will be unique in some way. The distinction is there it is just incredibly hard to say what it is.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Dave Stark
7583
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Posted - 2015.10.18 09:37:49 -
[2968] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:If this hits TQ myself and many others will no longer pay for a subscription and instead just use PLEX with the ISK you farm via this effortless mechanic. PLEX prices will rise to new heights. To the detriment of the player who actually farms ISK via some other mechanic to get the PLEX and actually needs the SP to train new skills. Yes, but I don't think you'll be able to completely pay for a sub by forfeiting that sub's SP gains. Though some (current char bazaar sellers) pay subs or PLEX just to farm SP on an account, most actually PLAY with their subbed accounts (alts included). If a sub (or PLEX) gives you: 1 month play time + 1.8M SP (more or less) Why do you think you should get a full PLEX back by selling just the SP component of a PLEX's worth?
because the only way to accrue SP is to have an active subscription. they are the same thing. one cannot exist without the other. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1647
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Posted - 2015.10.18 09:39:46 -
[2969] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:The value of time is subjective, not everybody values it in the same way, or at the same rate; which is why it's such a fine distinction. If we can't define a value that time has, how can you be sure that's what people are buying on the bazaar? How can I define how other people value time? It's impossible for me to do so. Quote:I'm not trying to be dismissive, but to claim there is a distinction between time and SP in regard to character sales probably means we should need to define that distinction for it to have any meaning. To me it lacks a distinction for the very reason of not being able to define one. I can see where you're coming from but no. How you value time is unique to you, how I value time is unique to me, and that goes for every other player, some people value of time may share some commonality but each will be unique in some way. The distinction is there it is just incredibly hard to say what it is. That leaves the question of how you can be sure it's actually a factor. The only thing I can really see from this is uncertainty since the value can't be defined or compared to the SP.
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
4
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Posted - 2015.10.18 09:43:44 -
[2970] - Quote
Astroyka wrote:General Lootit wrote: Mike, what personal reasone you have to dislike this idea? How it will affects you personally?
I really hope Mike is not speaking too much from personal opinion, he's a CSM and should be speaking from a wider viewpoint, which I believe he is. He defenetly speaking for him selfe in that case
Mike Azariah wrote: I dislike the Character Bazaar so of course I will dislike the new TSP's as they are similar (not the same, though)
but most personal opinion(without any personal reason) I could read from him about this topic is
Mike Azariah wrote: I am also against this. I could go into details but . . . this feels wrong to me. Against what I thought the game to be.
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