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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
13389
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:00:08 -
[1] - Quote
Hey everyone! We are planning a big set of ship and module updates for this Winter, including 13 new ships, module tiericide and much more. This thread will cover some of the ship balance tweaks we are currently planning so we can start gathering your feedback.
Many of these changes were sparked by discussion with the community, and I want to thank everyone who has taken the time to pitch your ideas and feedback to us on the forums, reddit, blogs, podcasts and at real life events. Special thanks to community member Suitonia who produces tons of great content on his blog and on youtube. Quite a few of the balance changes in this pass were inspired by his feedback.
The changes in this thread are primarily focused on T1 frigates and faction ships of all sizes (with one HAC buff thrown in). We're really interested in hearing what you think.
Breacher: The Breacher is in a pretty decent place overall, but we think it's could use a bit of help to really shine (and it is quite underused) so we're planning this slight mobility improvement. -0.08 inertia, +5 m/s Tormentor: Another ship that's in a pretty decent place but that tends to be overlooked, so we're adding this nice quality of life improvement that also fits the general Amarrian theme of having plenty of backup drones. +10m3 Dronebay Rifter and Slasher: Rifter and Slasher are getting a moderate fittings buff to help artillery fits and to make it easier to use the utility highs. Rifter: +5 CPU, +3 PWG Slasher: +5 CPU, +2 PWG Tristan: Slight speed drop to the current top-dog of T1 frigates to help even out the field. The Tristan is a great and flexible ship, and doesn't really need to be quite as fast as it currently is. -10 m/s Punisher: Let's talk about the Punisher. Quite a few people have asked about missile Punishers, but we currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan. With only Khanid T2 ships (and unbonused launchers on the droneships) further along the path, we feel this would act as a confusing set of breadcrumbs for a new player to follow. We also think that the "laser tank and gank" archetype deserves to be represented in Amarrian T1 frigates, especially to provide a less skill-intensive alternative to the Tormentor. We don't expect it to become a dominant solo powerhouse for veterans, but it will continue to be extremely good as a newer player PVE boat and to strengthen its (quite niche) existing role in T1 frigate gangs. The two midslot layout definitely hurts the ship's power and flexibility, but that can be an interesting tradeoff if compensated for in other ways. These changes give the Punisher one more slot than most T1 frigs, and increase damage slightly (4 effective turrets instead of 3.75) while reducing weapon cap use and adding the significant buff of an extra lowslot. In exchange it loses its utility high. +1 Turret +1 Lowslot +10 PWG +13 CPU Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level Firetail and Hookbill: We're planning moderate buffs to the two least used Navy Frigates. The Firetail now matches the Fleet Stabber and Fleet Hurricane tracking bonus, and the Hookbill gets a bit better with kinetic and a ton better with other damage types. Firetail: Increase tracking bonus to 10% per level Hookbill: Change damage bonus to 25% Kin, 20% Em/Therm/Exp Navy Osprey: The Navy Osprey is well below the power curve and overshadowed by other ships overlapping its role. The goal of these changes are to refocus the ship as a flexible destroyer of small ships worthy of a favoured role in the Caldari Navy's auxiliary forces. All in all, these changes leave the Navy Osprey with a moderate damage increase (6.75 effective launchers instead of 6, and the added drones) with extra benefits when using non-kinetic damage types. The second utility high also opens up new options for energy warfare. -1 Launcher (second utility high) Change the damage bonus to 25% Kinetic, 20% EM/Therm/Exp +100 pwg +15 dronebay and bandwidth Sacrilege: Quality of life bonus for roaming Sacs, while continuing to bring the ship closer in line with Amarrian (and Khanid) trends in drone use. +50m3 dronebay Worm and Gila: Two of the most dominant ships in their classes, we're going to tone them down a bit by bringing their slot numbers in line with most other drone ships. These represent fairly significant nerfs but we feel the ships remain among the strongest in their classes. Currently we have decided to leave the Rattlesnake alone, partially as it's not as dominant in its class as the smaller ships. However we won't rule out future changes. Worm: -1 Lowslot, -20 CPU Gila: -1 Lowslot, -20 CPU Orthrus: Another extremely dominant ship, this nerf is relatively mild compared to the Orthrus' strength but we feel pretty comfortable moving incrementally here. I know that many people will be unhappy that we're not nerfing the Orthrus harder at this time, but we feel that especially combined with the addition of the missile disruptors we are best served by making this change (which is quite significant by most standards) and observing the results before moving further. Reduce damage bonus to +15% per level Barghest: The Barghest is underperforming a tad in our eyes, so this change provides a slight DPS buff at high skill levels (9 effective launchers vs the previous 8.75) while providing a second utility high. -1 Launcher (second utility high) Change damage bonus to 10% per level As we keep working and incorporate feedback, it's very possible that some of these changes may be adjusted or removed, or that more could be added. This is also not the complete list of balance changes coming this Winter, keep an eye on this forum section for the latest updates.
We really want to hear your feedback on these proposals. Let us know what you think!
Game Designer | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie
http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/
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Madbuster73
C.Q.B Snuffed Out
148
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:00:49 -
[2] - Quote
First!
I am excited! |
Destoya
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
525
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:07:02 -
[3] - Quote
Big Orthrus, Gila, Worm nerfs. Can't say that they don't deserve it though. |
Anthar Thebess
1348
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:10:16 -
[4] - Quote
What about Phantasm ????????????
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
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Gradur Dohr
Carpe Noctem. Pandemic Legion
41
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:11:42 -
[5] - Quote
CCP STAHP PLS!!!!!!!!!!!111!1!!111!111 |
Ransu Asanari
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
441
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:18:14 -
[6] - Quote
Thanks for listening to the suggestions regarding the damage specific bonuses for the Hookbill and Navy Osprey. I hope some of those types of changes can make it to the other damage-bonused missile ships, so we have more situations where we have to decide whether it's worth it to swap missile ammo to try to take advantage of resist holes. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1216
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:18:49 -
[7] - Quote
Destoya wrote:Big Orthrus, Gila, Worm nerfs. Can't say that they don't deserve it though.
hardly that big, rattlesnake should lose a slot though especially a high and launcher too tone down the dps, i still think they should be reverted too 5 drones then you could sort out the strange bonuses they have. orthrus needs more nerfs surely..
punisher getting 1 more slot than other ships is odd, surely there is a better solution like switching a high too the low instead and just buff the cap regen instead of giving it the lame laser cap bonus
T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely.
ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats
Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
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Tzu Wu
THORN Syndicate Circle-Of-Two
57
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:21:55 -
[8] - Quote
Gila definitely needed to be toned down a bit. |
Kismeteer
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
850
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:22:39 -
[9] - Quote
Love the boosts to the navy osprey! |
Karti Aivo
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
33
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:22:50 -
[10] - Quote
Youre still missing out on giving the Nestor an 8th Highslot :( |
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Amak Boma
Dragon Factory
145
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:23:06 -
[11] - Quote
so punisher is gonna be now better in pvp . but as pve boat it will chew most 1/10 2/10 sites |
Tineoidea Asanari
Trojan Legion Goonswarm Federation
79
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:23:07 -
[12] - Quote
That's a lot of nice stuff.
Thanks Fozzie. |
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
43
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:26:33 -
[13] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Punisher: Let's talk about the Punisher. Quite a few people have asked about missile Punishers, but we currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan. With only Khanid T2 ships (and unbonused launchers on the droneships) further along the path, we feel this would act as a confusing set of breadcrumbs for a new player to follow. We also think that the "laser tank and gank" archetype deserves to be represented in Amarrian T1 frigates, especially to provide a less skill-intensive alternative to the Tormentor. We don't expect it to become a dominant solo powerhouse for veterans, but it will continue to be extremely good as a newer player PVE boat and to strengthen its (quite niche) existing role in T1 frigate gangs. The two midslot layout definitely hurts the ship's power and flexibility, but that can be an interesting tradeoff if compensated for in other ways. These changes give the Punisher one more slot than most T1 frigs, and increase damage slightly (4 effective turrets instead of 3.75) while reducing weapon cap use and adding the significant buff of an extra lowslot. In exchange it loses its utility high.
+1 Turret +1 Lowslot +10 PWG +13 CPU Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level
What? this is the opposite of what everyone wanted. The punisher is slow as crap, unagile and cannot web anything. Because it can't web it can't keep up even with merlins purely because of WEBS. 2 mid slots is abhorrent. The punisher needs the webifier to compete with the other brawlers. giving it a 5th lowslot doesn't do anything but allow me to fit some non-utility mod like a nanofiber or overdrive. The 10% cap usage bonus again? its a crutch bonus because lasers just gobble cap meanwhile you now have 3 frigates with the SAME cap usage bonus and no other 2nd combat bonus like every other ship in the game gets. |
Insidious
Hax. Shadow Cartel
14
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:28:01 -
[14] - Quote
nothing wrong with having a slightly over powering ship |
Faren Shalni
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
151
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:29:23 -
[15] - Quote
/me looks at punisher changes and facepalms
So Much Space
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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1137
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:30:12 -
[16] - Quote
I'm not into it.
tormentor doesn't need any buff, it's one of the best.
rifter is still unusable trash due to bad slots and bad weapons. if you're going to let me fit an artillery brawler, you should give the tracking bonus back. I don't really want to kite with it since it doesn't have the warp disruptor cap bonus.
tristan does need nerf, but I'd prefer it to be specifically targeted at kiting tristans. if it were me I'd be setting different drone control ranges for different classes or something. getting 50-60km range for free on a frig is crazy.
punisher I'm not sure about, its fittings will probably still be awful. less turrets is generally better than more. all the good frigates get a load of free drones bumping up their dps by 20-40.
firetail doesn't need anything while it can still abuse double web easymode scram kite.
hookbill is still a slow piece of **** that suffers from it being basically impossible to efficiently invest slots into shield tanking on frigs other than for extenders and ancils. are you guys really ok with people armor tanking a ship with 5 mids 2 lows?
I'm glad you're looking at overpowered gurista and mordu ships, but those nerfs don't look like they're enough. and I don't see an entry for the garmur, what gives? |
Amarisen Gream
Divine Demise Apocalypse Now.
137
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:31:20 -
[17] - Quote
My poor ratting Gila...
Thank you Fozzie for all the great info.
xoxo
Amarisen Gream
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big miker
Rifterlings Zero.Four Ops
363
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:33:06 -
[18] - Quote
Oh my god the Barghest CCP.
Dual heavy neuts on a fast battleship that's already able to kite very well
That thing is going to be insane!
Latest video: Ferocious 6.0 Nano battleships / maruaders
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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1137
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:33:25 -
[19] - Quote
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:
Punisher: Let's talk about the Punisher. Quite a few people have asked about missile Punishers, but we currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan. With only Khanid T2 ships (and unbonused launchers on the droneships) further along the path, we feel this would act as a confusing set of breadcrumbs for a new player to follow. We also think that the "laser tank and gank" archetype deserves to be represented in Amarrian T1 frigates, especially to provide a less skill-intensive alternative to the Tormentor. We don't expect it to become a dominant solo powerhouse for veterans, but it will continue to be extremely good as a newer player PVE boat and to strengthen its (quite niche) existing role in T1 frigate gangs. The two midslot layout definitely hurts the ship's power and flexibility, but that can be an interesting tradeoff if compensated for in other ways. These changes give the Punisher one more slot than most T1 frigs, and increase damage slightly (4 effective turrets instead of 3.75) while reducing weapon cap use and adding the significant buff of an extra lowslot. In exchange it loses its utility high.
+1 Turret +1 Lowslot +10 PWG +13 CPU Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level
What? this is the opposite of what everyone wanted. The punisher is slow as crap, unagile and cannot web anything. Because it can't web it can't keep up even with merlins purely because of WEBS. 2 mid slots is abhorrent. The punisher needs the webifier to compete with the other brawlers. giving it a 5th lowslot doesn't do anything but allow me to fit some non-utility mod like a nanofiber or overdrive. The 10% cap usage bonus again? its a crutch bonus because lasers just gobble cap meanwhile you now have 3 frigates with the SAME cap usage bonus and no other 2nd combat bonus like every other ship in the game gets. Unsurprisingly the Tormentor and Executioner have the SAME ship bonuses, the only two ships in the game to have such an unoriginal set up.
2 mids is fine, not every ship needs to be a competitive 1v1 brawler. |
Liam Inkuras
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
1614
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:33:56 -
[20] - Quote
YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!ONE!!!!11!
I wear my goggles at night.
Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone
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Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
43
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:36:12 -
[21] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:
Punisher: Let's talk about the Punisher. Quite a few people have asked about missile Punishers, but we currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan. With only Khanid T2 ships (and unbonused launchers on the droneships) further along the path, we feel this would act as a confusing set of breadcrumbs for a new player to follow. We also think that the "laser tank and gank" archetype deserves to be represented in Amarrian T1 frigates, especially to provide a less skill-intensive alternative to the Tormentor. We don't expect it to become a dominant solo powerhouse for veterans, but it will continue to be extremely good as a newer player PVE boat and to strengthen its (quite niche) existing role in T1 frigate gangs. The two midslot layout definitely hurts the ship's power and flexibility, but that can be an interesting tradeoff if compensated for in other ways. These changes give the Punisher one more slot than most T1 frigs, and increase damage slightly (4 effective turrets instead of 3.75) while reducing weapon cap use and adding the significant buff of an extra lowslot. In exchange it loses its utility high.
+1 Turret +1 Lowslot +10 PWG +13 CPU Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level
What? this is the opposite of what everyone wanted. The punisher is slow as crap, unagile and cannot web anything. Because it can't web it can't keep up even with merlins purely because of WEBS. 2 mid slots is abhorrent. The punisher needs the webifier to compete with the other brawlers. giving it a 5th lowslot doesn't do anything but allow me to fit some non-utility mod like a nanofiber or overdrive. The 10% cap usage bonus again? its a crutch bonus because lasers just gobble cap meanwhile you now have 3 frigates with the SAME cap usage bonus and no other 2nd combat bonus like every other ship in the game gets. Unsurprisingly the Tormentor and Executioner have the SAME ship bonuses, the only two ships in the game to have such an unoriginal set up. 2 mids is fine, not every ship needs to be a competitive 1v1 brawler. 2 mids is not fine, midslots are utility slots. Its the main reason why a lot of amarr ships get sidelined for ships with more midslots purely because mids means utility. Without the webifier the punisher cannot catch anything and it forces it to fit extremely generic and predictable fits. Fighting another AB frigate and you have nothing to counter with because the punisher is slow enough that an enemy can disengage extremely easily. I fully imagine that nothing will change and the only thing I'm gonna use this 5th lowslot for is an overdrive or nanofiber because it can't do anything. I hate the punisher to such an extent because of this absolutely garbage slot set up, I flew this thing in fall 2013 as apart of faction war and just because of how slow it is coupled with 2 mids is shooting itself in both its feet. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1216
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:37:00 -
[22] - Quote
hookbill change is good, but you still haven't looked at its other problems, it has so many mids but CPU is too little too use the mids without loads of cpu rigs or using lows for cpu etc,,, unless you have plans too make the passive shield resists use hardly any cpu like the adaptive resistance plating for armour frigs get..
T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely.
ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats
Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1137
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:39:03 -
[23] - Quote
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote: 2 mids is not fine, midslots are utility slots. Its the main reason why a lot of amarr ships get sidelined for ships with more midslots purely because mids means utility. Without the webifier the punisher cannot catch anything and it forces it to fit extremely generic and predictable fits. Fighting another AB frigate and you have nothing to counter with because the punisher is slow enough that an enemy can disengage extremely easily. I fully imagine that nothing will change and the only thing I'm gonna use this 5th lowslot for is an overdrive or nanofiber because it can't do anything.
having no midslots is how amarr works. if it's not good, they should change it so it is good, preferably by nerfing webs.
and again you're talking about 1v1s, what about gangs? it would be pretty good if its damage wasn't so bad. |
Gorski Car
662
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:40:25 -
[24] - Quote
The Barghest will be op as **** after this
Collect this post
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Alekseyev Karrde
Noir. Mercenary Coalition
1760
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:40:29 -
[25] - Quote
The Navy Drake and Muninn cry out in the darkness. Comfort them!
Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
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Hashtag Rare Pepe
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
5
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:43:30 -
[26] - Quote
I hope the skill packs will be available when these nerfs come so I can switch from a Gila to an Ishtar to afk rat |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1818
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:43:48 -
[27] - Quote
Good set of adjustments there. At first glance, none of them looks too overpowering.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
43
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:43:55 -
[28] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote: 2 mids is not fine, midslots are utility slots. Its the main reason why a lot of amarr ships get sidelined for ships with more midslots purely because mids means utility. Without the webifier the punisher cannot catch anything and it forces it to fit extremely generic and predictable fits. Fighting another AB frigate and you have nothing to counter with because the punisher is slow enough that an enemy can disengage extremely easily. I fully imagine that nothing will change and the only thing I'm gonna use this 5th lowslot for is an overdrive or nanofiber because it can't do anything.
having no midslots is how amarr works. if it's not good, they should change it so it is good, preferably by nerfing webs. and again you're talking about 1v1s, what about gangs? it would be pretty good if its damage wasn't so bad. Nerfing webs does not incentivize people to use garbage slow ships.
I almost always prefer a thorax over an omen purely because the thorax has 4 mid slots that I can put a web or literally any other utility into. It is because of the mid slots that gives ship's their function and versatility. You're going to find the same old same old generic AB punishers with Scramblers or that botched MWD punisher with a disruptor that gets gunned down by ships purely faster than it. Thanks CCP for opening up my empty can of fitting diversity. with its new 4th gun and slight increase in PG and CPU, most of that fitting is going towards the new gun, not fitting anything worth while. I might be able to squeeze some low meta level tracking enhancer into there but what does just a few percent do on small weapon systems? not a lot. |
Luanda Hunter
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
0
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:46:14 -
[29] - Quote
I just wonder what will be the role of gilas after this nerf. if they lose their passive ability, they wont just be equaled to the others but will be made completely obsolete imo |
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
143
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:51:36 -
[30] - Quote
Buffs to the Rifter. Nice :D |
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