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BANE LINX
State War Academy Caldari State
6
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Posted - 2015.11.25 23:32:22 -
[361] - Quote
How many new players never got to experience the true glory of eve due to their low SP? Sure there are many corporations that claim to be newb friendly, but unless you have valuable skills, being the so-called Hero Tackle will be your only option at first (at least for those wanting to pvp). It is true that while "leveling" players will obtain some necessary skills for future higher level content, but how many people are willing to pay subscription fees for almost a year before their character becomes an asset? Most MMO's nowadays can't keep their player base captivated for more than a few years tops. The fact that EVE is still around is a modern day miracle. But no matter how amazing and unique this game is, it must evolve in order to secure its own future. In my eyes, this proposal is just that - CCP's attempt to prolong EvE's lifespan. Sure this proposal needs some refinement, but I do think it's for the best. So stop raging. |
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
478
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Posted - 2015.11.26 04:54:56 -
[362] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote: I'd also really question that assumption that Plex/ETCs were put into game purely to curb RMT - despite the public citation.
My understanding is that GTC (Game Time Cards) where just a popular mechanic in the early MMO days to allow players to buy game time in a brick and mortar store. This way you didn't have to use your credit card for an online transaction.
RMT could and can be done withouth using game time. Traditional RMT is just a transaction where in-game currency or items are sold for real money. (reminder: RMT is a EULA violation that will get you banned !)
RMT has two sides: - an ISK buying party - an ISK selling party
The ISK buyers seek an ingame advantage to trade for real money. (I'm not being judgemental here, just explaining the mechanic).
The ISK sellers fall into two categories: - players who made some ISK and want to benefit from that ISK in a way that is not directly supported by the game. - non-players who seek a way to make real money using the game a means and the players as a target.
CCP recognized that especially the non-players engaging in RMT are a problem. Those guys were responsible for hacked accounts and were making money off of CCPs IP.
The "Timecode Bazaar" was a first step into legalizing the trades already happening between players (those who bought game time with ISK from those seeking to get ISK for real money.) Basically the demand for ISK was channelled away from the illegal sources towards the now legal sources.
The PLEX just made trading and applying game time to an account easier for everyone. The most important part to CCP is probably that it works without GM supervision, saving them money.
TL;DR: Were ETCs introduced to curb RMT ? No, but since players started trading ETCs, CCP came up with the Timecode Bazaar to prevent "illegal" RMT. The PLEX automates the function of the Timecode Bazaar. So PLEX is a tool against RMT.
PCU discussion Marsha's post,
SP discussion Sibyyl's post
opinions = onions*pi
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1748
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 05:18:32 -
[363] - Quote
Jill Xelitras wrote:TL;DR: Were ETCs introduced to curb RMT ? No, but since players started trading ETCs, CCP came up with the Timecode Bazaar to prevent "illegal" RMT. The PLEX automates the function of the Timecode Bazaar. So PLEX is a tool against RMT. Seems like PLEX was a tool to automate the Bazaar from your account, and the Bazaar was the Anti RMT element. As you describe it PLEX was introduced because it was easier and self managing, not because it further reduced RMT from the Bazaar.
That seems pretty analogous to TSP. |
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
478
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 06:29:12 -
[364] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jill Xelitras wrote:TL;DR: Were ETCs introduced to curb RMT ? No, but since players started trading ETCs, CCP came up with the Timecode Bazaar to prevent "illegal" RMT. The PLEX automates the function of the Timecode Bazaar. So PLEX is a tool against RMT. Seems like PLEX was a tool to automate the Bazaar from your account, and the Bazaar was the Anti RMT element. As you describe it PLEX was introduced because it was easier and self managing, not because it further reduced RMT from the Bazaar. That seems pretty analogous to TSP.
The difference would be that TSP would allow SP trade instead of character trade. (see Sibyyl's posts. Part 1 is linked in my signature). In essence, a character has a history and reputation which have an effect beyond the actual SP. A specialized character is the result of careful planning and months of training time to achieve a skill-set. TSP is just pooling SP into packs of unallocated SP.
There are differences between ISK and SP too:
- ISK is supposed to be gained through activity. Passive ISK gain is the exception rather than the norm. - SP were designed to accrue passively, this would change with TSP (for better or for worse)
- ISK making is rarely entirely risk free: ISK or whatever makes you ISK can be lost, destroyed, stolen ... Buying ISK doesn't make you immune to those risks. - SP are pretty safe on your account. With the removal of loosing SP when podded, only losing a Tech3 ship still incurs this penalty. So buying SP is a permanent advancement, buying ISK is more of a temporary boost.
- SP were designed as a class system that was flexible in allowing you to create a character defined by your preferences, but also confining you to your previous choices for a set amount of time.
I'm not against tradeable SP as a mechanic. I have two main concerns toward the proposed system: - The potential signal sent to new players: You have to buy SP early on to be competitive, but since you don't have much ISK as a beginner you'll have to spend real money to buy PLEX so you can afford SP. All this while paying a monthly subscription fee.
- Until now there was no grind for SP. The only thing you might want to grind for are ISK. Making SP tradeable adds SP to the list of items you may grind ISK for.
From all the discussions had around TSP, I liked the proposed idea of flattening skill dependencies as a way to help newer players to get into the gameplay they prefer quicker. The argument was that, if new players want to fly battleships, why should they have to train frigates, cruisers, small turrets, medium turrets first. Why not allow them to go straight for large turrets and the BS skill ?
Other than this I would prefer if the amount of SP you could add to a character was capped to a monthly max. This would allow CCP to analyze how the mechanic is used without it becoming a run away train. It would also preserve some of the function of the SP system: pushing you to make meaningful choices in what class/role you want to play. Otherwise, what's stopping you to be a fully skilled miner & ore refiner & industrialist & trader if it isn't the time investment ?
PCU discussion Marsha's post,
SP discussion Sibyyl's post
opinions = onions*pi
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1748
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 11:07:10 -
[365] - Quote
Jill Xelitras wrote:The difference would be that TSP would allow SP trade instead of character trade. (see Sibyyl's posts. Part 1 is linked in my signature). In essence, a character has a history and reputation which have an effect beyond the actual SP. A specialized character is the result of careful planning and months of training time to achieve a skill-set. TSP is just pooling SP into packs of unallocated SP. While true the sale of SP and the sale of a character are different, I've not felt the distinctions were meaningful or beneficial to the idea of consequence the game supposedly emphasizes. For instance, buying a history, especially a negative one, means that the player who committed the acts gets paid to liquidate their consequence.
I'm still having a hard time understanding that mechanic as a positive in game principle.
Regarding planning, there is no difference, save the idea of simply waiting out the skills to which I'd ask, so long as someone waited out that time and decided it still worth selling, what is the issue?
Jill Xelitras wrote:There are differences between ISK and SP too:
- ISK is supposed to be gained through activity. Passive ISK gain is the exception rather than the norm. - SP were designed to accrue passively, this would change with TSP (for better or for worse)
- ISK making is rarely entirely risk free: ISK or whatever makes you ISK can be lost, destroyed, stolen ... Buying ISK doesn't make you immune to those risks. - SP are pretty safe on your account. With the removal of loosing SP when podded, only losing a Tech3 ship still incurs this penalty. So buying SP is a permanent advancement, buying ISK is more of a temporary boost.
- SP were designed as a class system that was flexible in allowing you to create a character defined by your preferences, but also confining you to your previous choices for a set amount of time. The benefits of the system are also it's weakness. By making real time an asset in accruing SP the skill system ensures goals in flexibility and adaptability are simple waiting games. There is something to be said for prioritization, but that will still be the case for consumed SP. The only difference is that the bar moves to effort rather than simply time being the measure of what you can do now.
The ability to select what that effort unlocks according to preference is no different than current though.
There is the question of loss, but I'm not sure that assuring opportunity for SP penalization is even a priority of the training system anymore. It seems designed to be permanent in a character's head and I'm not sure how TSP would invalidate that.
Jill Xelitras wrote:I'm not against tradeable SP as a mechanic. I have two main concerns toward the proposed system: - The potential signal sent to new players: You have to buy SP early on to be competitive, but since you don't have much ISK as a beginner you'll have to spend real money to buy PLEX so you can afford SP. All this while paying a monthly subscription fee.
- Until now there was no grind for SP. The only thing you might want to grind for are ISK. Making SP tradeable adds SP to the list of items you may grind ISK for.
From all the discussions had around TSP, I liked the proposed idea of flattening skill dependencies as a way to help newer players to get into the gameplay they prefer quicker. The argument was that, if new players want to fly battleships, why should they have to train frigates, cruisers, small turrets, medium turrets first. Why not allow them to go straight for large turrets and the BS skill ?
Other than this I would prefer if the amount of SP you could add to a character was capped to a monthly max. This would allow CCP to analyze how the mechanic is used without it becoming a run away train. It would also preserve some of the function of the SP system: pushing you to make meaningful choices in what class/role you want to play. Otherwise, what's stopping you to be a fully skilled miner & ore refiner & industrialist & trader if it isn't the time investment ? Admittedly the one real contention I see is this potentially providing further emphasis on certain gameplay for isk generation due to the draw of TSP. In theory the game shouldn't do that, but such motivations are inevitable so long as PLEX, the Bazaar and really the market in general exist. So unless the detriment is moreso than every isk carrot currently out there we may not see as much change behaviorally.
Or maybe my own feelings on that are a minority and there will be a huge push for any free SP made available. Though, if that's so I can't wonder how much the current training system has contributed to that. |
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
478
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 13:18:20 -
[366] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jill Xelitras wrote:The difference would be that TSP would allow SP trade instead of character trade. (see Sibyyl's posts. Part 1 is linked in my signature). In essence, a character has a history and reputation which have an effect beyond the actual SP. A specialized character is the result of careful planning and months of training time to achieve a skill-set. TSP is just pooling SP into packs of unallocated SP. While true the sale of SP and the sale of a character are different, I've not felt the distinctions were meaningful or beneficial to the idea of consequence the game supposedly emphasizes. For instance, buying a history, especially a negative one, means that the player who committed the acts gets paid to liquidate their consequence. I'm still having a hard time understanding that mechanic as a positive in game principle.
When trading a character, it may have meant getting paid less then for a similar character with good reputation. For the buyer it meant dealing with possible adversity.
But you're right, the current state of the game is less harsh than it used to be. Back in the days I didn't worry too much about possibly having too many SP. That is until getting podded started costing me 30 million ISK to replace my medical clone. This penalty has gone. It's also nearly impossible to forget to set skill training, since we now have the unlimited skill queue.
Taking another step to make it easier for players to create the character they want to play is good. What I don't want to see is this system directly linked to a players capacity to spend money. I'm not British, but I prefer waiting in queues to everyone rushing to get ahead of each other, or worse paying a premium to get a special treatment.
The next question is why maintain the SP system, when CCP is going to short-cut it. Why wait a week for a skill to train if you could just buy it "instantly trained" instead ? But then why pay for a skill to "be instantly trained" when you're already paying for the skillbook and for access to the game ? If the waiting time for a skill to complete is a problem, then why not lower or remove the waiting time instead of inserting a payable short-cut ?
P.S. The character bazaar was just the lesser evil compared to people selling characters over e-bay. It wasn't a planned mechanic, but rather a response to what players were doing anyway despite it being against the EULA.
Tyberius Franklin wrote: Regarding planning, there is no difference, save the idea of simply waiting out the skills to which I'd ask, so long as someone waited out that time and decided it still worth selling, what is the issue?
By planning, I meant that the seller had to decide which skills would get the best market value and establish an efficient raining plan to minimize costs and maximize profits.
The proposed SP trading system would mean that the seller can train any skill, since he only needs the SP not the skills.
In both cases you wait for SP to accrue, but in the first case the actual skills trained is what really matters. The issue is that it turns creating viable characters (miners, pvp pilots, carrier pilots ...) into farming SP.
PCU discussion Marsha's post,
SP discussion Sibyyl's post
opinions = onions*pi
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Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
478
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 13:57:32 -
[367] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:The benefits of the system are also it's weakness. By making real time an asset in accruing SP the skill system ensures goals in flexibility and adaptability are simple waiting games. There is something to be said for prioritization, but that will still be the case for consumed SP. The only difference is that the bar moves to effort rather than simply time being the measure of what you can do now.
I think that the bar would move towards ability to spend money, not effort. Time has the advantage of running at the same speed for everyone.
I see 2 issues with the current system: 1) the attribute system & attribute implants is creating inequality between players for no good reason. Basically, if you can afford +5 implants you're training faster than someone with +4 and so on.
2) the game has been running for so long that some of the skillsets required are too far away to be enjoyable to train for. -> I like what one person proposed in the SP trading thread: lowering skill dependencies for all sub-cap skills in order to lower the barrier of entry to certain playstyles.
Tyberius Franklin wrote: The ability to select what that effort unlocks according to preference is no different than current though.
There is the question of loss, but I'm not sure that assuring opportunity for SP penalization is even a priority of the training system anymore. It seems designed to be permanent in a character's head and I'm not sure how TSP would invalidate that.
Indeed SP are now almost impossible to lose and there is no penalty for having loads of SP. So far so good. What TSP would add is the ability to skip training time (not just with effort, but also with the wallet). My main concern is that this incites new players into spending real money to advance simply because CCP changed a game mechanic that they deemed bad. If a game mechanic needs to be changed, why have new players pay for it with real money ?
My logic is this: If waiting now is insufferable, when people advance at the same speed, how insufferable will it be when you can skip the waiting by spending money ? Why not demand from CCP that the waiting time be lowered or be removed ? How does spending real money ( $ -> PLEX -> ISK -> SP) seem like the better idea ?
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Admittedly the one real contention I see is this potentially providing further emphasis on certain gameplay for isk generation due to the draw of TSP. In theory the game shouldn't do that, but such motivations are inevitable so long as PLEX, the Bazaar and really the market in general exist. So unless the detriment is moreso than every isk carrot currently out there we may not see as much change behaviorally.
Or maybe my own feelings on that are a minority and there will be a huge push for any free SP made available. Though, if that's so I can't wonder how much the current training system has contributed to that.
Yes, exactly this. We used to grind for the ships we flew and wait for the skills to train, but the future could be "grind for everything". Additionally it would most impact low SP characters. With over 100M SP on my main I don't worry so much about grinding, I could even sell off my mining skills worth of SP.
So yeah, I'd rather see faster SP training for low SP characters or a flattened skill requirement tree ... why not both ... to a potential grindfest.
PCU discussion Marsha's post,
SP discussion Sibyyl's post
opinions = onions*pi
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Asura Vajrarupa
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
56
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Posted - 2015.11.26 17:12:03 -
[368] - Quote
Zakks wrote:Asura Vajrarupa wrote: I get that change is scary but damn! You guys get anxious over the silliest of BS.
The arguments against are solidly there. But you don't agree with them so dismiss them and the people making them by closing with an attack.
So if I left this last part off you'd have nothing to say, good to know I could include you.
Ignorance is the cause of suffering.
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Asura Vajrarupa
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
56
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Posted - 2015.11.26 17:35:28 -
[369] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Asura Vajrarupa wrote:Preventing it isn't the point. There is actually no policy, rule change, or mechanic that can stop RMT. Designing game mechanics, or not designing them, to prevent RMT is wasteful and stupid. I'll tell you about how you don't prevent RMT: by introducing another method to easily do so. And why introduce the method? To help newbros who are bored to death waiting for a ship doctrine to fly in? The logic does not follow. If that is a problem that needs to be solved (and no one is arguing it is a problem after the starting 400k SP bump) then it should be solved using un-tradable SP.
I already stated that focusing on rmt prevention in game design doesn't lead to better games and is a fools errand. Between your post and mine at least one person has argued that low sp grind is a problem, and I'm willing to bet more if I could stand reading through the chaff of this thread. So your fantasy of no support for the idea is just that. There are at minimum two. Wake up from your confirmation bias.
Why should we use untradeable sp? How is one more burst of one time sp going to change anything? Unless suggesting CCP just sell sp, which is a terrible idea, and probably the real fear for most concerning this topic.
Sibyyl wrote:Quote:All changes to the game should be to enhance player experience, to make the game a better game! Any argument against SP trading that falls outside this fact is nonsensical. Let me be very clear here, since it doesn't seem to be. You and I are players and offering our opinions. Neither of us are CCP employees (I hope!) and we don't control the IP or the game. What they decide to do is their right alone. I feel simply that I voice my opinion what I feel better adheres to the spirit of the game as CCP has themselves described it to us. You don't see the cognitive dissonance in this statement?
Ignorance is the cause of suffering.
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Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
483
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Posted - 2015.11.26 18:35:56 -
[370] - Quote
Asura Vajrarupa wrote:I already stated that focusing on rmt prevention in game design doesn't lead to better games and is a fools errand. Between your post and mine at least one person has argued that low sp grind is a problem, and I'm willing to bet more if I could stand reading through the chaff of this thread. So your fantasy of no support for the idea is just that. There are at minimum two. Wake up from your confirmation bias.
Why should we use untradeable sp? How is one more burst of one time sp going to change anything? Unless suggesting CCP just sell sp, which is a terrible idea, and probably the real fear for most concerning this topic. 1) maybe you should indeed read what has been written on the subject ? Just an idea ...
2) I assume that combating cheating in FPS games doesn't lead to better games and is a fools errand too ?
3) Let's assume that RMT happens because people are impatient to various degrees. Let's further assume that grindy game mechanics have a tendency to lead to boredom.Let's further assume that bored impatient people engage in RMT. I would think that reducing the amount of boring, grindy mechanics would both lead to better gameplay and reduce RMT.
4) tradeable SP, as proposed would benefit the potential sellers (those who have plent of SP) more than the likely buyers (those who feel like the need to up their SP) ...
5) If you had read Sibyyl's posts you would know that she doesn't advocate CCP selling SP.
6) concerning fantasy of no support: try this.
Sibyyl wrote:Quote:All changes to the game should be to enhance player experience, to make the game a better game! Any argument against SP trading that falls outside this fact is nonsensical. Let me be very clear here, since it doesn't seem to be. You and I are players and offering our opinions. Neither of us are CCP employees (I hope!) and we don't control the IP or the game. What they decide to do is their right alone. I feel simply that I voice my opinion what I feel better adheres to the spirit of the game as CCP has themselves described it to us. You don't see the cognitive dissonance in this statement?[/quote]
What cognitive dissonance ? Sibyyl said in essence: 1) CCP run the show and do what they want to do. 2) You and I can only voice our opinions 3) Here's my opinion on what fits best to the way EvE was described to us.
If you're interested in what way EvE was described, here's EvE is harsh and no micro-transaction beyond vanity items.
PCU discussion Marsha's post,
SP discussion Sibyyl's post
opinions = onions*pi
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
26275
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Posted - 2015.11.26 18:41:17 -
[371] - Quote
Hi Marsha,
I was going to wish you a good Thanksgiving, but I realized where you're from.
Mechanisms of RMT and their solutions:
1. ISK Trading. RMT mechanism: Currently possible. Players can give money to an ISK farmer. Solution: PLEX. Offers a legal path to instantly gain ISK at a competitive price.
2. Character trading. RMT mechanism: Currently possible. Players can exchange account logins in exchange for money. Solution: Character Bazaar. Offers CCP muscle against scams. Competitively priced (only 2 PLEX).
3. SP Trading. RMT mechanism: Currently not a game mechanic. CCP would have to introduce it in the game, in order for players to RMT by trading SP for money. Solution: ???
Asura, sorry I don't argue against thesauruses. Give me a substantive argument. All you're doing is saying "you're wrong".
Tyberius, good to see you in the thread! I will respond after I stuff these chickens..
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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Dagnar
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2015.11.26 19:26:54 -
[372] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Hi Marsha, I was going to wish you a good Thanksgiving, but I realized where you're from. Mechanisms of RMT and their solutions:1. ISK Trading. RMT mechanism: Currently possible. Players can give money to an ISK farmer. Solution: PLEX. Offers a legal path to instantly gain ISK at a competitive price. 2. Character trading. RMT mechanism: Currently possible. Players can exchange account logins in exchange for money. Solution: Character Bazaar. Offers CCP muscle against scams. Competitively priced (only 2 PLEX). 3. SP Trading. RMT mechanism: Currently not a game mechanic. CCP would have to introduce it in the game, in order for players to RMT by trading SP for money. Solution: ??? Asura, sorry I don't argue against thesauruses. Give me a substantive argument. All you're doing is saying "you're wrong". Tyberius, good to see you in the thread! I will respond after I stuff these chickens..
3. SP trading doesn't need a solution because there already is one: PLEX. You sell PLEX for isk and use isk to buy SP from other players. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
2429
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Posted - 2015.11.26 22:45:43 -
[373] - Quote
Dagnar wrote:3. SP trading doesn't need a solution because there already is one: PLEX. You sell PLEX for isk and use isk to buy SP from other players. No. You buy a character with flaws, with a name you don't want and a face you don't like. That is a large cost to benefit, which curbs sales.
SP trading is perfect skill injections (yeah yeah lower returns, bandaid blah blah) into a character of your choice and you would be liquidating characters that people built and may hope will live on after they are gone.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
There are other ways to fix Null Sec stagnation and Fozzie SOV is the wrong approach.
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4263
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Posted - 2015.11.28 11:06:25 -
[374] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Dagnar wrote:3. SP trading doesn't need a solution because there already is one: PLEX. You sell PLEX for isk and use isk to buy SP from other players. No. You buy a character with flaws, with a name you don't want and a face you don't like. That is a large cost to benefit, which curbs sales. SP trading is perfect skill injections (yeah yeah lower returns, bandaid blah blah) into a character of your choice and you would be liquidating characters that people built and may hope will live on after they are gone. EVE's skill training system, real-time instead of grind, is quite obviously just a (legit) way for CCP to retain customers over time, by diluting access to content.
It never ceases to amuse me when people like you make a fuss over CCP deciding to change THEIR CHOICE of how to sell skills (=game content) to players.
It's entirely a business decision (good or bad), in no way a decision affecting gameplay. Except in maybe slightly more people having a slightly wider range of ship/career choices faster, which is bad because?
So why don't you focus on playing the game instead of playing armchair businessman?
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9611
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Posted - 2015.11.28 20:31:51 -
[375] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:PLEX reduces RMT because it provides a competitively priced alternative to RMT: buy ISK legally from CCP itself.
PLEX doesn't reduce RMT. It legitimizes it.
Putting the cash in CCP's pocket instead of third party ISK sellers in no way changes how the game is played and the fundamental problem of paying to jump ahead.
While it can certainly be argued that paying CCP for ISK is better than paying ISK-R-US is better for the game, it's faint praise. The problem is not addressed. CCP's solution to RMT was to grab a piece of it for themselves, thus encouraging the practice through making it legit. There has been no time in this game's history where RMT is more prevalent than today. Whether legit or third party, RMT is RMT.
How can that possibly be good for the game?
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
403
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Posted - 2015.11.29 16:06:18 -
[376] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:PLEX doesn't reduce RMT. It legitimizes it.
Only to one half: You can effectively buy ISK for Dollar, but you cannot sell ISK for Dollar. No player can legitimately make money by farming ISK and selling them. The only monetary benefit for the ISK seller is, that he doesn't have to pay his account. Every PLEX beyond that is still just an ingame item.
The problem with RMT in most games is, that you can actually make money by farming ISK/Gold/Coins/Crystals/whatever the currency is, often using bots or a bunch of chinese kids in a sweatshop. That does happen in Eve as well, E-Bay ISK selling is definitely a thing, but not as much as it would be if there were no PLEX.
CCP on the other hand, even though of course they get a nice financial cushion through PLEX, don't sell ISK, and therefore don't bot or farm. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9612
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Posted - 2015.11.30 01:19:09 -
[377] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:PLEX doesn't reduce RMT. It legitimizes it. Only to one half: You can effectively buy ISK for Dollar, but you cannot sell ISK for Dollar. No player can legitimately make money by farming ISK and selling them. The only monetary benefit for the ISK seller is, that he doesn't have to pay his account. Every PLEX beyond that is still just an ingame item. The problem with RMT in most games is, that you can actually make money by farming ISK/Gold/Coins/Crystals/whatever the currency is, often using bots or a bunch of chinese kids in a sweatshop. That does happen in Eve as well, E-Bay ISK selling is definitely a thing, but not as much as it would be if there were no PLEX. CCP on the other hand, even though of course they get a nice financial cushion through PLEX, don't sell ISK, and therefore don't bot or farm. I think CCP buying ISK might be one of the best things for the longevity of the game.
A one time event to clear some of the large alliance wallets and make things fun again. Not enough notice to allow farming to matter much. Just announce that on such and such a date CCP will do a PLEX buyback for cash.
It will create some great stories of massive corp thefts. Many corps and alliances will collapse overnight as their bankers sell off all their assets and null will open up like it hasn't in years. It will also have the benefit of clearing some of the massive stockpiles of PLEX, capital fleets and minerals from the game.
This will have to be coupled with fixing ISK faucets and a reworked (or removed) PLEX system, of course. But it might be just what we need to remove the current stagnation that is plaguing the game and shake up the balance of power that virtually unlimited ISK has created for the large blocks turtled in around their money moons.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
1269
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Posted - 2015.11.30 06:38:44 -
[378] - Quote
The only thing to mass protest is mass protests themselves.
Accounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities.-á
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Kaska Iskalar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2015.12.01 22:31:08 -
[379] - Quote
Actually, transneural skill packs are the reason I came back. I biomassed my old main. I tried coming back a few times, but Eve really sucks at low SP and I didn't want to not be able to do the stuff I like to do for months. I didn't want to buy some character named xXDarkLordOfDarknessXx or a sexual reference from the character bazaar either. I want my character to be mine. With the those two options off the table there are two left, don't come back or CCP announces SP packs. Thankfully, CCP chose the latter. |
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
653
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Posted - 2015.12.01 23:38:09 -
[380] - Quote
Kaska Iskalar wrote:Actually, transneural skill packs are the reason I came back. I biomassed my old main. I tried coming back a few times, but Eve really sucks at low SP and I didn't want to not be able to do the stuff I like to do for months. I didn't want to buy some character named xXDarkLordOfDarknessXx or a sexual reference from the character bazaar either. I want my character to be mine. With the those two options off the table there are two left, don't come back or CCP announces SP packs. Thankfully, CCP chose the latter.
What if they would offer you the third option and you be able to change those fancy names you are reffering to? And your DarkLordofDarkness became a LightLordoftheLightness? |
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MrsKaye
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2015.12.02 00:57:43 -
[381] - Quote
Funny, you think this is a bad idea..
IT'S ONE OF THE BEST I'VE HEARD CCP come up with.
Both from a company profit standpoint and the fact that new games being introduced in this market segment are not requiring skill points to fly ships, just pilot skill.
CCP is just keeping pace and thinking on their feet.... way to go! |
Asura Vajrarupa
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
56
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Posted - 2015.12.02 01:58:30 -
[382] - Quote
MrsKaye wrote:Funny, you think this is a bad idea..
IT'S ONE OF THE BEST I'VE HEARD CCP come up with.
Both from a company profit standpoint and the fact that new games being introduced in this market segment are not requiring skill points to fly ships, just pilot skill.
CCP is just keeping pace and thinking on their feet.... way to go!
But selling off parts of your brain because you need cash isn't cold and dark enough somehow, and that's what really matters!!!
CCP can't change their mind! It violates a thing they said once upon a time! I'd rather see EVE rot and die then see it change!
/s
Ignorance is the cause of suffering.
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Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
405
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Posted - 2015.12.02 02:11:35 -
[383] - Quote
So, Elite: Dangerous doesn't need skill training, so eve shouldn't need it either?
I wonder, should CCP at one point actually save Eve, by turning it into not-Eve - would they really have saved it then? |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33034
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Posted - 2015.12.02 12:54:47 -
[384] - Quote
without skills to keep people subbed, EVE would become a space wasteland. A spaceland.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
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Cometopappa
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2015.12.02 15:27:08 -
[385] - Quote
When can i buy SP's? I needs thems's,, the preciousssss!! |
Kaska Iskalar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2015.12.02 23:10:49 -
[386] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:without skills to keep people subbed, EVE would become a space wasteland. A spaceland. If skill training is the only reason you stay subbed why are you playing a game you clearly don't like? |
Kaska Iskalar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2015.12.02 23:16:48 -
[387] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Sibyyl wrote:PLEX reduces RMT because it provides a competitively priced alternative to RMT: buy ISK legally from CCP itself.
PLEX doesn't reduce RMT. It legitimizes it. Putting the cash in CCP's pocket instead of third party ISK sellers in no way changes how the game is played and the fundamental problem of paying to jump ahead. While it can certainly be argued that paying CCP for ISK is better than paying ISK-R-US , it's faint praise. The problem is not addressed. CCP's solution to RMT was to grab a piece of it for themselves, thus encouraging the practice through making it legit. There has been no time in this game's history where RMT is more prevalent than today. Whether legit or third party, RMT is RMT. How can that possibly be good for the game? Mr Epeen There's nothing CCP can really do about it except ban accounts, and history has shown that the RMT industry considers that a minor speed bump at best. The only thing that can really be done to make a serious dent in RMT is the games industry getting themselves some lobbyists and either making the EULA legally binding and suing RMT companies out of business or making RMT illegal. Even that wouldn't completely stop it, but it at least wouldn't be running rampant anymore. |
Paul Pohl
blue media poetry
36
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Posted - 2015.12.03 03:54:37 -
[388] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote: There has been no time in this game's history where RMT is more prevalent than today. Whether legit or third party, RMT is RMT. Mr Epeen
Really?
As someone who has come back to the game.... I recall endless spamming in local by isk sellers - and endless moaning by people who got ripped off - ebay had a thriving market in characters who may or may not have had the skills advertised when you ponied up to buy the passwords - again the cause of endless moaning - etc
I suspect there was far more RMT changing hands then than there is now - for the simple reason than it meant far more to have the extra few million isk or whatever etc
Oh - and let's remember that this thread is about a protest that didn't happen, about the subject of someone trading the skill points accrued from Defender Missiles V to someone to get something they can use |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1774
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Posted - 2015.12.03 19:50:12 -
[389] - Quote
Kaska Iskalar wrote:Rain6637 wrote:without skills to keep people subbed, EVE would become a space wasteland. A spaceland. If skill training is the only reason you stay subbed why are you playing a game you clearly don't like? Allow me to aid your understanding. Many of us have the capacity to like a game without needing to play it every day, week or even month. Because we take breaks doesn't mean I don't like it.
But I stay subbed, because training and the fact that the progress gained will be put to use when I return.
Does that help clarify the concept? |
Marexlovox
THORN Syndicate Circle-Of-Two
52
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Posted - 2015.12.03 20:01:34 -
[390] - Quote
BrundleMeth wrote:Um....No...I don't give a s(h)it....
ikr
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