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Captain Awkward
Republic University Minmatar Republic
85
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Posted - 2015.10.19 09:39:17 -
[1] - Quote
Hey.
This idea came to me when replying to a "how can we make BS viable again" thread.
Its aimed at making not only BS but mixed doctrine fleets more usefull.
----------------------- The Problem ----------------------
If im not mistaken, the warp speed of a fleet in fleet warp is the warp speed of the slowest ship in the fleet.
Because of this, fleet commanders often will not take BS on a fleet ops that needs to travel at least a couple of systems as even a single BS can compromise the mobility of the entire fleet.
In the same way, it is usually not mutch helpfull to fly a small ship (not counting fast tackle) as your increased warp speed does no good to the fleet. You ether are slowed down by the fleet or have to wait at every gate.
This is why HAC / T3C fleets are so popular atm. Good firepower and EHP combined with good speed. The only often used BS is the Machariel with its 3 AU / sec base speed.
------------------ The possible solution ----------------------
So my Idea was to make the warp speed of a fleet in a mutual warp tunnel more avarige of all ships in the tunnel. That way, a couple of BS in a cruiser fleet will not totaly cripple the warp speed of that fleet, and smaller ships can contribute to the mobility of the fleet by increasing their warp speed.
The formula could be something like this : Every faster ship can pull a slower ship up to its own warpseed, but only max 0,5 AU/sec at a time. So 2 crusiers can pull 1 BS to curiser speed, or 2 cruisers can pull 2 Battlecruisers to cruiser speed. The warp speed of the fleet can not exceed twice the base warp speed of the slowest ship (to prevent 12 interceptors from pulling a BS to 8 AU/sec) because of structural integrity.
So I have absolutely no idea if you will like the idea or totaly destroy it :-) |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16835
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Posted - 2015.10.19 10:04:15 -
[2] - Quote
Use the warp speed mods and implants.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Captain Awkward
Republic University Minmatar Republic
85
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Posted - 2015.10.19 10:14:01 -
[3] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Use the warp speed mods and implants. I can also use warp speed mods and implants in HAC and T3C where they are even more powerfull and we have the same problem again. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16835
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Posted - 2015.10.19 11:03:10 -
[4] - Quote
Captain Awkward wrote:baltec1 wrote:Use the warp speed mods and implants. I can also use warp speed mods and implants in HAC and T3C where they are even more powerfull and we have the same problem again.
Nobody does, use them on the battleship.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Iain Cariaba
1898
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Posted - 2015.10.19 11:04:36 -
[5] - Quote
Captain Awkward wrote:baltec1 wrote:Use the warp speed mods and implants. I can also use warp speed mods and implants in HAC and T3C where they are even more powerfull and we have the same problem again. That is a pointless argument. If your cruiser fleet is fit for warp speed, then maneuverability is its primary goal, and not a place for a battleship. Otherwise, it is quite easy to fit a battleship so it can keep up with a cruiser fleet.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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oohthey ioh
Republic University Minmatar Republic
29
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Posted - 2015.10.19 20:55:38 -
[6] - Quote
Captain Awkward wrote:
Because of this, fleet commanders often will not take BS on a fleet ops that needs to travel at least a couple of systems as even a single BS can compromise the mobility of the entire fleet.
That was the point, when they made battleship it meant of been rare and uncommon sight, but underestimated player with making ISK.
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Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2794
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Posted - 2015.10.19 23:06:10 -
[7] - Quote
oohthey ioh wrote:Captain Awkward wrote:
Because of this, fleet commanders often will not take BS on a fleet ops that needs to travel at least a couple of systems as even a single BS can compromise the mobility of the entire fleet.
That was the point, when they made battleship it meant of been rare and uncommon sight, but underestimated player with making ISK. What? |
Teddy KGB
Stand Alone Forces
6
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Posted - 2015.10.20 00:25:37 -
[8] - Quote
Why should i buy implants for warp speed when i can buy implants for DPS or other stuff.. also they are not cheap for null sec usage. I like the idea and solution is good too. CCP should think about it. Cos nowadays BS roams are taking damn very long time.
Damn the idea is really great and simple! |
Teddy KGB
Stand Alone Forces
6
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Posted - 2015.10.20 00:34:36 -
[9] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Use the warp speed mods and implants. this implants work when you already have fast warp speed. Also will you spend couple billions on it to be poded in a buble? lol |
Iain Cariaba
1898
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Posted - 2015.10.20 02:21:04 -
[10] - Quote
oohthey ioh wrote:Captain Awkward wrote:
Because of this, fleet commanders often will not take BS on a fleet ops that needs to travel at least a couple of systems as even a single BS can compromise the mobility of the entire fleet.
That was the point, when they made battleship it meant of been rare and uncommon sight, but underestimated player with making ISK. You're thinking Titans and supers, not battleships.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2677
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Posted - 2015.10.20 06:12:12 -
[11] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Use the warp speed mods and implants. This.
It is possible to bring along a larger ship, if it gives up some of its larger advantages to fit bonus maneuverability mods. A battleship really can't be built to keep up with a cruiser gang, but a battlecruiser can, and a battleship can at least be fit to warp faster than 2 AU/s. Otherwise, if you want to take a battleship along, you should do it with other battleships, and not bring 1 battleship along with a cruiser gang.
Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom
Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm
The Succubus looks meaner
But the Revenant cleaner
Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16838
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Posted - 2015.10.20 07:02:28 -
[12] - Quote
Teddy KGB wrote:baltec1 wrote:Use the warp speed mods and implants. this implants work when you already have fast warp speed. Also will you spend couple billions on it to be poded in a buble? lol They don't cost a few billion and yes I use them on my battleships.
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
It is possible to bring along a larger ship, if it gives up some of its larger advantages to fit bonus maneuverability mods. A battleship really can't be built to keep up with a cruiser gang, but a battlecruiser can, and a battleship can at least be fit to warp faster than 2 AU/s. Otherwise, if you want to take a battleship along, you should do it with other battleships, and not bring 1 battleship along with a cruiser gang.
I have battleships that keep up with frigate fleets
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
804
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Posted - 2015.10.20 16:38:50 -
[13] - Quote
Suddenly fleets with 10 battleships and logi AND 5 t2 warp rigged interceptors all over the place. ((12 au/s divided by 2) + 2 divided by 2) and you get 4 au/s average at very low cost.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
636
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Posted - 2015.10.20 17:32:03 -
[14] - Quote
Wait. So, you mean to say that slow ships are actually slower than fast ships? Really? That can't be right.
(Checks stats on random battleship) Huh, who'd a thunk?
"Tomahawks?"
"----in' A, right?"
"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."
"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2343
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Posted - 2015.10.20 19:49:23 -
[15] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:Suddenly fleets with 10 battleships and logi AND 5 t2 warp rigged interceptors all over the place. ((12 au/s divided by 2) + 2 divided by 2) and you get 4 au/s average at very low cost.
Or bring the leopard thingy in your fleet and laugh even more. |
Captain Awkward
Republic University Minmatar Republic
86
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Posted - 2015.10.21 07:55:04 -
[16] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:Suddenly fleets with 10 battleships and logi AND 5 t2 warp rigged interceptors all over the place. ((12 au/s divided by 2) + 2 divided by 2) and you get 4 au/s average at very low cost.
Not if you let every faster ship only pull a single smaller ship. So you would need 40 interceptors to pull 10 battleships to 4 AU.
Taking 10 Battleships into a 40 interceptor gang fleet would still be unpractical as your interceptor gang cant exeed 4 AU and takes 10 seconds to aline.
The way I started my approach was specificly aimed at not allowing a few superfast ships to pull a large number of very slow ships to high speeds. The intent was to have the majority of ships beeing able to pull a minority of slower ships up to their own speed. The goal was that a fleet travels close to the speed that the majority of ships have.
The formular I posted was there to explain the idea behind the proposal. Im shure there are still holes in it that need to be closed.
Sobaan Tali wrote:Wait. So, you mean to say that slow ships are actually slower than fast ships? Really? That can't be right. (Checks stats on random battleship) Huh, who'd a thunk?
Yes slow ships are slow.
Reality is that slow ships are so slow that they get pushed out of many (not all) fleets because of that. Fleets turn out to be a monoculture of ship classes instead of having a more diverse fleet with more choices. And isnt that the point where a game developer should see the signs and do something?
If you look at naval ships, you notice that bigger ships not nessisarily mean that they are slower in therms of long distance travel. They turn like a brick and need a long time to accelerate and decelerate, but even a aircraft carrier can do its 30 knowts. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2343
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Posted - 2015.10.21 12:40:53 -
[17] - Quote
Captain Awkward wrote:
Yes slow ships are slow.
Reality is that slow ships are so slow that they get pushed out of many (not all) fleets because of that. Fleets turn out to be a monoculture of ship classes instead of having a more diverse fleet with more choices. And isnt that the point where a game developer should see the signs and do something?
If you look at naval ships, you notice that bigger ships not nessisarily mean that they are slower in therms of long distance travel. They turn like a brick and need a long time to accelerate and decelerate, but even a aircraft carrier can do its 30 knowts.
Real life does not care about "balance". Games do. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2343
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 12:45:00 -
[18] - Quote
Teddy KGB wrote:baltec1 wrote:Use the warp speed mods and implants. this implants work when you already have fast warp speed. Also will you spend couple billions on it to be poded in a buble? lol
100 million and 2 rig slot will get a BS to HAC warp speed. You don't even lose a bill if you lose the ship and the pod... |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2217
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 13:03:24 -
[19] - Quote
I wouldn't mind a drug. I dislike using implants in bubble related space. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2343
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Posted - 2015.10.21 13:05:49 -
[20] - Quote
afkalt wrote:I wouldn't mind a drug. I dislike using implants in bubble related space.
Never used them but don't you lose your drug effect upon getting podded? |
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2240
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Posted - 2015.10.21 13:18:03 -
[21] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:afkalt wrote:I wouldn't mind a drug. I dislike using implants in bubble related space. Never used them but don't you lose your drug effect upon getting podded?
It's more the cost/expendability of their nature. |
Captain Awkward
Republic University Minmatar Republic
86
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 14:26:28 -
[22] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Captain Awkward wrote:
Yes slow ships are slow.
Reality is that slow ships are so slow that they get pushed out of many (not all) fleets because of that. Fleets turn out to be a monoculture of ship classes instead of having a more diverse fleet with more choices. And isnt that the point where a game developer should see the signs and do something?
If you look at naval ships, you notice that bigger ships not nessisarily mean that they are slower in therms of long distance travel. They turn like a brick and need a long time to accelerate and decelerate, but even a aircraft carrier can do its 30 knowts.
Real life does not care about "balance". Games do.
Stating the obvious.
Slow ships are only slow because CCP said so. So seeing all those HAC fleets going around, it may be time to reevaluate if the nerf that BS got was a tad to mutch. Maybe im wrong and CCP thinks BS are well where they want them to be. Maybe they were overnefed and could use a little buff.
If you simply buff the BS to a higher speed, BS might replace cruisers and HACs in fleet. That would shurely not be a good result as it would simply replace one monoculture with a other.
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2344
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Posted - 2015.10.21 14:28:47 -
[23] - Quote
Captain Awkward wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Captain Awkward wrote:
Yes slow ships are slow.
Reality is that slow ships are so slow that they get pushed out of many (not all) fleets because of that. Fleets turn out to be a monoculture of ship classes instead of having a more diverse fleet with more choices. And isnt that the point where a game developer should see the signs and do something?
If you look at naval ships, you notice that bigger ships not nessisarily mean that they are slower in therms of long distance travel. They turn like a brick and need a long time to accelerate and decelerate, but even a aircraft carrier can do its 30 knowts.
Real life does not care about "balance". Games do. Stating the obvious. Slow ships are only slow because CCP said so. So seeing all those HAC fleets going around, it may be time to reevaluate if the nerf that BS got was a tad to mutch. Maybe im wrong and CCP thinks BS are well where they want them to be. Maybe they were overnefed and could use a little buff. If you simply buff the BS to a higher speed, BS might replace cruisers and HACs in fleet. That would shurely not be a good result as it would simply replace one monoculture with a other.
You can get a BS to HAC speed with relatively minimal cost. People not doing it show that they don't want BS in their fleet that much. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
795
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 15:02:08 -
[24] - Quote
Sobaan Tali wrote:Wait. So, you mean to say that slow ships are actually slower than fast ships? Really? That can't be right.
(Checks stats on random battleship) Huh, who'd a thunk?
Odd isn't. Numbers must be wrong, run them again lol.
There is also option C (rigs and such covered for option B already) and trust members of fleet can be big boys and girls and warp themselves to a called point (the warp to spotter, blah blah at 10, etc). If a fleet can't trust their people to do this with a reasonable amount of success well.....a review of how they take in people needs to be done most likely.
this gets cruisers to warp to at a pace they like. act as advanced party for the big boys coming in right behind them for the added bene.
There is also option D, we remove fleet warp from game. Adds the human factor if this done. If fleet members on the ball or at least not complete idiots they will follow orders decently enough to make it all work out to a large extent at least.
Fleet members are idiots, those special types who don't take orders well, etc....well the fleet is off to a bad start. It won't be the slow BS's that get them killed imo. It will be disorganized, or just outright bad game play most likely. Several people who can't follow the simple instruction of warp to Player X....probably the tip of the iceberg for problems with that fleet really.
Mix the 2, the side that has its act together(more so at least) gets an edge. Call me odd, it should be that way really.
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Teddy KGB
Stand Alone Forces
10
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Posted - 2015.10.24 23:48:05 -
[25] - Quote
we want just bs roam fly a bit faster that s all . formulas can be different. and balanced. just make a formula limits and include in it the fast warp booster issue |
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