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Daemeon Kado
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2015.10.20 01:23:59 -
[1] - Quote
So there is a lot of grumbling about the proposed idea of selling SP packs created by other players to other players. It's being called pay to win and it seems to be thought of a a Bad Idea(TM).
I am confused though. I was told numerous times that skill points do not matter and that newer players can be just as effective as older players so do not complain about them having millions of SP more than you. But NOW if I DO get those same SP.... I'm paying to win?
Please help me figure out what fine line is being pushed here?
(Side note) I don't care either way about the skill point selling... just find the logic... odd. |
MeestaPenni
Mercantile and Stuff
328
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Posted - 2015.10.20 01:45:08 -
[2] - Quote
The idea is that new players can be just as skilled at very narrow skillsets in a relatively shore time. They can quickly be just as "skilled" because skill level tops out eventually. Lvl 5 is it.
However, they will in no way have the experience.
I am not Prencleeve Grothsmore.
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Paranoid Loyd
7235
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Posted - 2015.10.20 01:48:03 -
[3] - Quote
Yeah, at first I was in rage mode (well as rage mode as I get when it comes to video games), then I came to the realization, that bad players will be bad no matter how many skill points they have, so whatever.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!
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Daemeon Kado
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2015.10.20 01:48:48 -
[4] - Quote
MeestaPenni wrote:The idea is that new players can be just as skilled at very narrow skillsets in a relatively shore time. They can quickly be just as "skilled" because skill level tops out eventually. Lvl 5 is it.
However, they will in no way have the experience.
I understand that. I do.
Don't quite agree with it but understand it.
However by that logic it should not matter how much and how fast a player gets their SP as that is not what matters but the play experience. This is what I'm trying to figure out. On one hand we tell new players not to worry about SP as it "does not matter" and then on the other hand we call any acceleration of those SP as "pay to win".
It cannot be both. |
Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
154
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Posted - 2015.10.20 01:54:18 -
[5] - Quote
Pay to win . . .
I feel this has been taking away from the game. There are many of us "bitter" vets, who have been around for a long time, many much longer than I. We fought, earned and learned our way thru EVE to be in the positions we are at now.
Pay to win just didn't start recently, it started quite a while ago. A new player, lets say a rich new player, can buy all the ISK or Aurem that they want. Instead of taking the time to train a character, they can and could go out and buy one. With more money, they can buy all the shiney ships and mods.
IMHO a player who buys their way into and thru a game will not have the longevity to become a "bitter" vet. They will quickly burn out, they will be flash in the pan, a meteor in the sky, they will not last, etc. etc.
CCP wants to make money in the short term, only to lose it later.
-Kirst
Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
709
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Posted - 2015.10.20 01:57:02 -
[6] - Quote
Consider how many players are in eve and what percentage will spend the high dollars to get a high level skill loadout. Very rare any will power play and not likely to approach vet levels. considering that a three month equal sp would be ten packs. How much would that be in isk or dollars? I think it will be majority of people will just to it to grab that level five when they want that upgrade.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Mephiztopheleze
Republic University Minmatar Republic
241
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Posted - 2015.10.20 02:51:15 -
[7] - Quote
Daemeon Kado wrote:(Side note) {snip} just find the logic... odd.
Welcome to EVE!
New Eden's Logic Fairy has new credit card and has taken the Troll of Reason and the Common Sense Dragon out to lunch. They went to a Jovian restaurant and are halfway through their third bottle of Te'Quafe'ila, so it may be a while before they're back on deck.
In the meantime, some members of the player community will froth at the mouth as they vomit a myriad of curses and poorly conceived objections towards pretty much any changes CCP talks about.
I'm sure it's referred to as 'business as usual' in Reykjavik.
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
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Memphis Baas
708
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Posted - 2015.10.20 02:54:11 -
[8] - Quote
Grab it from where? There's not gonna be any for sale. Nobody's gonna take out their level 5 skills so you can have yours. |
Mephiztopheleze
Republic University Minmatar Republic
241
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Posted - 2015.10.20 02:57:52 -
[9] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Grab it from where? There's not gonna be any for sale. Nobody's gonna take out their level 5 skills so you can have yours.
Wait for off-grid links nerfs. THEN there'll be some SP for sale!
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
709
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Posted - 2015.10.20 03:02:06 -
[10] - Quote
Mephiztopheleze wrote: Wait for off-grid links nerfs. THEN there'll be some SP for sale!
I absolutely cannot wait for that day. On grid boosting is the only way to be. What part of off grid is eve? Oops, off topic...
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Pryde Anneto
TakinShots
0
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Posted - 2015.10.20 03:16:53 -
[11] - Quote
I played in 2003, actually have a box copy of eve, which is rare, and played for a loooooong time. Ex Votf, Ex Curse Alliance old and new. Moo was something to be feared when I played. Thought I was done with the game, and was for a period of about 7 years. Sold my character because what the hell I didn't need him anymore (sold it legally through the forums) but now I have that Eve itch again. Ok, i start a character, at 2.3 mil sp's and try to talk my new non eve friends to play. BAHAHAHAHAHA. Thats what I got, I know the depth and wonderful part of Eve that most gamers don't know, but the new kids need a boost, if it doesn't happen, Eve will keep slowly declining. Just my input. Love the game, I have a renewed want to play the game, but honestly a little boost to those new players hurts no one that has 80+ mil sp's (which i once was). o7
Pryde |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2612
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Posted - 2015.10.20 03:40:32 -
[12] - Quote
A lot of people complaining are not doing it because it's 'pay 2 win'. They are complaining because of all the other abuses possible, and the instant gratification element being introduced with this.
Also, go whinge in the correct thread, you are not a special snowflake. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9351
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Posted - 2015.10.20 03:44:36 -
[13] - Quote
Me too.
I confuses me that everyone knows there is a thread created specifically for this feature and all others are being locked, yet they keep starting them anyway.
Most confusing.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Ioci
Bad Girl Posse Somethin Awfull Forums
601
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Posted - 2015.10.20 03:54:09 -
[14] - Quote
MeestaPenni wrote:The idea is that new players can be just as skilled at very narrow skillsets in a relatively shore time. They can quickly be just as "skilled" because skill level tops out eventually. Lvl 5 is it.
However, they will in no way have the experience.
Or the assets unless they purchased Plex to buy those too, when they purchased Plex to buy their SP packets.
Either way it's a pay to lose ploy, masked as pay to win, something EVE has tried in the past with limited success.
R.I.P. Vile Rat
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d0cTeR9
Astro Technologies SpaceMonkey's Alliance
252
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Posted - 2015.10.20 04:22:53 -
[15] - Quote
Meh, some people take video games too seriously. Moment anything gets near their virtual bubble, it's hell on earth (or... space in this game).
After being around for over 10 years, i have seen it all. At the end of the day... it doesn't matter. CCP has and will do w/e the frack they want, only difference is the past few years they know what they are doing.
Been around since the beginning.
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Ravaging Lust
Bound And Determined
13
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Posted - 2015.10.20 04:25:15 -
[16] - Quote
It should be implemented. People just seem to be grumpy about it for some reason. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
40546
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Posted - 2015.10.20 04:32:31 -
[17] - Quote
Markus Reese wrote:Mephiztopheleze wrote: Wait for off-grid links nerfs. THEN there'll be some SP for sale!
I absolutely cannot wait for that day. On grid boosting is the only way to be. What part of off grid is eve? Oops, off topic... On grid won't be any better than off grid in many situations. There's a lot more creative a effective solutions than just bringing links on grid.
But as to the topic. There's no one logic in the community. There's lots of different views on things and it isn't as black and white as player skill is more important than skills, but selling skills is bad because it's important for character progressions. Those are not necessarily mutually exclusive ideas.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Yusef Brion
Big Yellow Pidgeon Inc.
25
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Posted - 2015.10.20 04:49:41 -
[18] - Quote
MeestaPenni wrote:The idea is that new players can be just as skilled at very narrow skillsets in a relatively shore time. They can quickly be just as "skilled" because skill level tops out eventually. Lvl 5 is it.
However, they will in no way have the experience.
Yep.
The more I read the forums over the years, the more I swear. To god. That the typos are intentional mistakes.
Part o f the encryption.
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Carrie-Anne Moss
The Scope Gallente Federation
483
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Posted - 2015.10.20 04:59:35 -
[19] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Yeah, at first I was in rage mode (well as rage mode as I get when it comes to video games), then I came to the realization, that bad players will be bad no matter how many skill points they have, so whatever. Man i wish you gave in to the RAGE more |
Carrie-Anne Moss
The Scope Gallente Federation
483
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Posted - 2015.10.20 05:00:37 -
[20] - Quote
Ioci wrote:MeestaPenni wrote:The idea is that new players can be just as skilled at very narrow skillsets in a relatively shore time. They can quickly be just as "skilled" because skill level tops out eventually. Lvl 5 is it.
However, they will in no way have the experience. Or the assets unless they purchased Plex to buy those too, when they purchased Plex to buy their SP packets. Either way it's a pay to lose ploy, masked as pay to win, something EVE has tried in the past with limited success. Do you look like that irl? |
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Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1576
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Posted - 2015.10.20 05:03:36 -
[21] - Quote
* /CONSPIRACY ON
Whilst being pushed as a thing for new players that is not the true motivation.
It is blatantly and clearly an alt creation tool for veterans in { insert big alliance } to instantly create various alts by subbing multiple new characters for one month while training those skills that maximise SP for the profile of that char using +5 implants a then transferring it all to a single alt.
* /CONSPIRACY OFF
On a more serious note this is a feature that is unlikely to be used by genuine new players but will be amazingly handy for alt creation.
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Carrie-Anne Moss
The Scope Gallente Federation
483
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Posted - 2015.10.20 05:10:36 -
[22] - Quote
The TRUE REAL reason for this entire thing isnt "helping newbros" or "closing Sp gap"
IT IS.
VIRTUAL REALITY
And Himlir.
VR is all they care about, watch fanfest keynotes.
Ccp gotta pump us all for $$$ to fund the VIRTUAL REALITY train |
Eternus8lux8lucis
Primus Inc. LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
522
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Posted - 2015.10.20 05:14:15 -
[23] - Quote
The asshattery that will come with it isnt much of an issue for me. Its the instant gratification of the game. Yet the reality is that if I were to ever leave and get rid of my characters and assets and want to start over again the best and easiest way to do so is literally to drop $200-500 dollars into plex and buy my way back in. So this is ultimately what a lot of noobs are either being told to do or realizing very quickly that they need to do to become competitive on any real level.
As a vet I still say that the noob progression is almost needed. Not to feed off them because they are noobs but to grow in the game and create those vital experiences. But like life every child wants to be an adult and cant wait and would pull a Tom Hanks "Big" to get there. And so they will scream and pout and cry and throw a temper tantrum because theyre not full grown in the game as well. They wants it!! and they wants it NOAW!! And thats all there is to it. And I feel that CCP is caving to that mentality and trying to milk it for profits. Ultimately its their game and they are a company designed to make money.
So Im torn in some ways but still very much against the entire aspect of where its heading.
Imam: Have you heard anything I've said?
Richard B. Riddick: You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?
Imam: That's right.
Richard B. Riddick: Had to end sometime.
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Davis TetrisKing
The Vendunari End of Life
139
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Posted - 2015.10.20 05:48:39 -
[24] - Quote
Daemeon Kado wrote:So there is a lot of grumbling about the proposed idea of selling SP packs created by other players to other players. It's being called pay to win and it seems to be thought of a a Bad Idea(TM).
I am confused though. I was told numerous times that skill points do not matter and that newer players can be just as effective as older players so do not complain about them having millions of SP more than you. But NOW if I DO get those same SP.... I'm paying to win?
Please help me figure out what fine line is being pushed here?
(Side note) I don't care either way about the skill point selling... just find the logic... odd.
I think the problem with the logic you have stated is the language being used is being misconstrued.
Often when people say 'skill points don't matter' what they actually mean is 'you can still kill stuff despite not having perfect SP'. While, yes, they said 'skill points don't matter', that term is widely used in a non-absolute setting. 'I lost my ship, but it doesn't matter', 'Sorry I broke your TV' 'Don't worry it doesn't matter'. It's more used to say 'it's not that important'.
The phrase 'skill points don't matter' needs to be taken in context too. I believe the context is usually 'you can pvp at some basic level'. If the context was 'can you fly a titan' then skill points most definitely DO matter. If the context was 'you can get involved in T3 production' then skill points do matter.
I'm also not convinced that you are not aware of all this. Your OP seems to have taken an extremely simplified version of both arguments to construct a false dichotomy. This is often refereed to as a straw-man argument, and can be very frustrating because it encourages spreading mis-information.
Anyway, I hope that helps with your confusion.
o7 |
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
710
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 05:54:42 -
[25] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:On grid won't be any better than off grid in many situations. There's a lot more creative a effective solutions than just bringing links on grid.
For me, If there is incentive to be on grid, that is happy for me. Logi and warefare links are my bread and butter. Anything that ups the challenge of warfare links to bring them on grid makes me happy. I have the full Leaderships to five including all command five command ships plus related ship skills. It was years of training to specialize so I refuse to offgrid boost. I want to be part of the action, not losing boosts cause of warping safespots or sitting in a POS.
Nevyn Auscent wrote:A lot of people complaining are not doing it because it's 'pay 2 win'. They are complaining because of all the other abuses possible, and the instant gratification element being introduced with this.
Also, go whinge in the correct thread, you are not a special snowflake. As a specialized support focused character the buy to my level of requires SP would have bothered me. Mostly because it devalues the pride I put on the effort. That said, if somebody wants to spend that money on a game, I cannot argue. Is it really that different than a flashy car, or watch, etc.? We should be glad people want to spend that level of coin in Eve. The number presented don't make it likely to be a common occurence. It mainly will affect the attitude of characters 1-2 years where the level of SP is more noticable and more likely to see the newb being more powerfu
On the Vet side, I suspect it is more of a slippery slope concern which can be valid. Make the new players more important (fleets of footsoldiers) and many will be less likely to bulk buy. Most purchases will assuredly be spoiling oneself with farmed isk, or to just remove that first high sp skill to get that desired T2 hull. There is a devaluing a bit in S-peen, but those of us who dont transfer can brag that. Will see how it works. If we can get mechanics favoring larger fleet with squad on squad, buying a large host of SP is less of an effect. One SP boosted amongst 100-200 peeps isnt going to do much. Ditto goes for any form of the complex side of eve that favors player skill and attention. Eve has much like that.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Davis TetrisKing
The Vendunari End of Life
139
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 06:07:28 -
[26] - Quote
Markus Reese wrote:As a specialized support focused character the buy to my level of requires SP would have bothered me. Mostly because it devalues the pride I put on the effort.
I agree with you and think this is important.
Markus Reese wrote:Is it really that different than a flashy car, or watch, etc.? We should be glad people want to spend that level of coin in Eve.
I disagree with this part. I feel like in eve it shouldn't matter who the player is outside of the game, the in-game opportunities should be the same. If they have a flashy car IRL, cool, good on them, but should their IRL finances affect their in the game abilities?
I know that plex already does this, and the same for the character bazzar, but I feel like CCP introduced these things as a way for CCP to manage RMT and 3rd party character trading. They put in a system to manage it but only went as far as to make it equivalent to what you'd have if you illegally bought an account from another person. The proposed system gives benefits above and beyond simply managing RMT/character trading. |
Pryce Caesar
Cloak and Daggers Fidelas Constans
19
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Posted - 2015.10.20 06:41:08 -
[27] - Quote
Daemeon Kado wrote:MeestaPenni wrote:The idea is that new players can be just as skilled at very narrow skillsets in a relatively shore time. They can quickly be just as "skilled" because skill level tops out eventually. Lvl 5 is it.
However, they will in no way have the experience. I understand that. I do. Don't quite agree with it but understand it. However by that logic it should not matter how much and how fast a player gets their SP as that is not what matters but the play experience. This is what I'm trying to figure out. On one hand we tell new players not to worry about SP as it "does not matter" and then on the other hand we call any acceleration of those SP as "pay to win". It cannot be both.
I think it correlates with ships as part of the complaints. The thing about Skillpoints is that, regardless of how much money you have, there are certain ships you cannot fly without the pre-requisite skill having been trained up, with the highest-levels of ships taking around half a year's worth of time to train, or other skills that also take a comparatively long time to train up.
I think vets are afraid that, with SP being turned into a buyable commodity (although it ignores that people have to re-allocate skill points with the Extractor first to create the Packet), that system will now be circumvented. They think that a major barrier to pay-to-win has been removed because now, on top of buying the biggest and most expensive ships in the game, new players who throw their wealth into the game with reckless abandon can now simply buy Skill Packets and give automatic level-ups to skills they want for a particular type of play style.
In other words, instead of playing the game and gaining actual experience while your skills train up in the interim in preparation for flying a new class of ship, new players will simply be able to buy Packets to speed up their training speed to the extent that skill which would have once taken days or weeks to level, and ships that once would have taken months upwards to half a year to train for can be accomplished in only FRACTIONS OF THE TIME by buying Skill Packets to automatically level up any pre-requisite skills.
At which point you will have complete rookies flying Tech 2 and Tech 3 ships around, whereas before levelling up the skills and gaining the experience necessary through gameplay to fly those ships effectively was a mark of pride, and a rite of passage for players in EVE Online.
At least, that is how I think some of the more bitter vets think about it.
One way to deal with this problem is for the vets to regulate the Skill Packets. Keep the sale of them restricted to contracts within your Corporations or Alliances, use them to give new Corp members of a certain skill level a helping hand to progress faster in the game, or even use them to help an Alt level up their skills if you do not have the time to play as them or do not want to spend the money on PLEX to allow Multiple Character Training which would be better spent on extending game time.
The most advantageous thing I see about this is the ability to re-allocate points from skills which you do not use anymore and put them to use in other categories, or on Alts who you want to train in those specific skill types.
The second most advantageous thing? Strategic Cruisers. I've heard that you lose skill points when a Strategic Cruiser you trained for goes up in smoke. Assuming your SP has not crossed the forbidden 80 mill mark, then you can just use a packet to re-train the lost Strategic Cruiser skillpoints back to levels of your liking.
The other advantageous trait is what I mentioned above: helping newer Corps members get on their feet in the meta-game, especially in Null-Sec.
There is also the possibility of making a profit, depending on how they're priced. I'd estimate they will be worth more than PLEX they will be in such high demand. That would most likely dissuade people from buying them wholesale, especially if price increases from demand.
In the end, there is a lot of good and potentially a lot of bad involved, but the benefits to yourself will inevitably out-weigh any fears of how this may affect new players in the future.
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Daemeon Kado
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2015.10.20 07:24:05 -
[28] - Quote
Davis TetrisKing wrote:Daemeon Kado wrote:So there is a lot of grumbling about the proposed idea of selling SP packs created by other players to other players. It's being called pay to win and it seems to be thought of a a Bad Idea(TM).
I am confused though. I was told numerous times that skill points do not matter and that newer players can be just as effective as older players so do not complain about them having millions of SP more than you. But NOW if I DO get those same SP.... I'm paying to win?
Please help me figure out what fine line is being pushed here?
(Side note) I don't care either way about the skill point selling... just find the logic... odd. I think the problem with the logic you have stated is the language being used is being misconstrued. Often when people say 'skill points don't matter' what they actually mean is 'you can still kill stuff despite not having perfect SP'. While, yes, they said 'skill points don't matter', that term is widely used in a non-absolute setting. 'I lost my ship, but it doesn't matter', 'Sorry I broke your TV' 'Don't worry it doesn't matter'. It's more used to say 'it's not that important'. The phrase 'skill points don't matter' needs to be taken in context too. I believe the context is usually 'you can pvp at some basic level'. If the context was 'can you fly a titan' then skill points most definitely DO matter. If the context was 'you can get involved in T3 production' then skill points do matter. I'm also not convinced that you are not aware of all this. Your OP seems to have taken an extremely simplified version of both arguments to construct a false dichotomy. This is often refereed to as a straw-man argument, and can be very frustrating because it encourages spreading mis-information. Anyway, I hope that helps with your confusion. o7
I am aware of what people mean when they say skill points do not matter. But by saying it and what it means they ignore what the complaint true new players have and that is that they will NEVER be able to compete with older players on a fair basis since they will not have the skill points to be able to do so.
So we say, "But skill points do not matter." and give them very limited options to play the game and have it controlled by those with way more power and SP than they do. A truly new player with no previous connections to this game will not survive long in any space other than HI-SEC and even that is poached by high SP players that do not want the newer "pubbies" to have a chance.
I only point this out because it has bothered me for a long time that we fall on the excuse of, "Skill points do not matter." when we really meant to say, "Skill points matter, but if you listen well and do exactly what WE want you to do.. we'll let ya fly with us." |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
40546
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 07:40:41 -
[29] - Quote
Markus Reese wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:On grid won't be any better than off grid in many situations. There's a lot more creative a effective solutions than just bringing links on grid. For me, If there is incentive to be on grid, that is happy for me. Logi and warefare links are my bread and butter. Anything that ups the challenge of warfare links to bring them on grid makes me happy. I have the full Leaderships to five including all command five command ships plus related ship skills. It was years of training to specialize so I refuse to offgrid boost. I want to be part of the action, not losing boosts cause of warping safespots or sitting in a POS. If you want to be on grid, then be on grid. Nothing is really stopping that in many cases. You can do that now.
Forcing links on grid is often called for, yet it will do nothing to improve links play in at least a 1/3 rd of cases and with grid foo, the links ship won't get anymore in the action a lot of the time.
There are much more creative options, none of which will prevent links from being on grid anyway, just as they aren't prevented from being on grid now.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1703
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Posted - 2015.10.20 08:26:35 -
[30] - Quote
Ion Kirst wrote:Pay to win . . .
I feel this has been taking away from the game. There are many of us "bitter" vets, who have been around for a long time, many much longer than I. We fought, earned and learned our way thru EVE to be in the positions we are at now.
Pay to win just didn't start recently, it started quite a while ago. A new player, lets say a rich new player, can buy all the ISK or Aurem that they want. Instead of taking the time to train a character, they can and could go out and buy one. With more money, they can buy all the shiney ships and mods.
IMHO a player who buys their way into and thru a game will not have the longevity to become a "bitter" vet. They will quickly burn out, they will be flash in the pan, a meteor in the sky, they will not last, etc. etc.
CCP wants to make money in the short term, only to lose it later.
-Kirst
I bought this char around 2 years ago, i dont intend on leaving, i just bought a char to give myself a little boost and enable me to fly more relevant ships in nullsec, best thing i done was buy a char
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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